Stargate Canadian Safe Harbor (Stargate AU)

[WCSII]

. . . . Three things. One. PRINCE HAS SAID, TIME AND AGAIN, THAT THIS QUEST IS COMPLETELY, TOTALLY, AND UTTERLY AU. What has happened in canon, does not necessitate happening in quest, much less on the same time scale/frame. Two. Hathor got lucky, plot necessitated that she got lucky, it even lamp shaded that she got lucky with the minor under lords she subsumed. We do not have that level of Plot armor And lastly, three. Between the first two, we can't assume that there are "weak" under lords/system lords that we could topple and take over, much less as stealthily, or without trouble like Hathor (which was mostly because of the natural nishtah(sp?) she generated) Never mind without the US finding out and trying to raise a stink about it, or demand we hand over the domain, etc.

I get that it's a super cool, totally awesome, majorly gnarly, far out thought to entertain. But barring some batshit insane rolls, we can pretty much forget about it anytime in the near future, quest wise.

 

[Wobb Nox]

I get that it's a super cool, totally awesome, majorly gnarly, far out thought to entertain. But barring some batshit insane rolls, we can pretty much forget about it anytime in the near future, quest wise.

Click to shrink...

I kinda agree which is why I'd support at most a covert raiding strategy if we must act against the snakeheads, deniable operations that get us resources and tech seem more our speed right now..... though if we could swipe a Hatack I wouldn't really be opposed.

 

[Darkcore41]

. . . . Three things. One. PRINCE HAS SAID, TIME AND AGAIN, THAT THIS QUEST IS COMPLETELY, TOTALLY, AND UTTERLY AU. What has happened in cannon, does not necessitate happening in quest, much less on the same time scale/frame. Two. Hathor got lucky, plot necessitated that she got lucky, it even lamp shaded that she got lucky with the minor under lords she subsumed. We do not have that level of Plot armor And lastly, three. Between the first two, we can't assume that there are "weak" under lords/system lords that we could topple and take over, much less as stealthily, or without trouble like Hathor (which was mostly because of the natural nishtah(sp?) she generated) Never mind without the US finding out and trying to raise a stink about it, or demand we hand over the domain, etc.

I get that it's a super cool, totally awesome, majorly gnarly, far out thought to entertain. But barring some batshit insane rolls, we can pretty much forget about it anytime in the near future, quest wise.

Click to shrink...

One problem with that. We have enough proof up till now that the snakes are as if not more useless then canon. The only.thing keeping them up is numbers. They're infighting has to still be going on if the season 1 villain still has to use only two Hataks to invade earth and no one has done a follow up. If the Asgard hasn't done a protected world treaty then they're still underestimating earth as a collective. Also SG1 has already gotten into contact with the Jaffa and has major wins over atleast one system lord.

So if SG1 up until now has been able to do that with no plot armor then us taking or raiding a low snake shouldn't take as you termed it lucky rolls with the significant tech advantage we have.

Why would the Americans suddenly know and what do they have to stand on to raise a stink? They've been doing things without the knowledge of anyone else for years now. Without either alerting the other nations, bringing anything of worth or defending the planet.

Lastly if we start going through the gate we're going to eventually hit a snake occupied planet. If what your saying is true then theyll automatically know it's earth. I disagree on that notion but that's the main sticking point.

We tested they're armor and found out its worth nothing in protection. In the ground they're nothing but numbers just like the show. We also found out they're wasting N and produce very little in the way of ships over decades. With all those facts from in quest do you really think an under snake has many ships? That their ground forces are worth anything but human wave tactics?

 

[prince84]

Hey, prince84 what are our Herons doing when we don't dedicate an action towards them? I'd imagine that patrolling or scanning the could actually be done in the background.

Click to shrink...

Currently, they are being used to train their crews to more than basic competency as while they are all veteran ship/submarine crews space ships are different enough to force some retraining on even the most experienced. Beyond that the ships themselves are still being tweaked due to the newness of the tech and other such problems/matters.

With all those facts from in quest do you really think an under snake has many ships?

Click to shrink...

You are missing the scale issue. Even if the snakes were only producing 1 ship per hundred worlds every hundred years they have been around a LONG time so they have ships even if 90+% of them are tied up in territory defence against each other.

That their ground forces are worth anything but human wave tactics?

Click to shrink...

Human waves armed with anti-tank guns. They don't have to hit you often as a hundred or so Jaffa all firing at the same area can basically produce a wave of incoming plasma fire.

 

[prince84]

Beyond that the ships themselves are still being tweaked due to the newness of the tech and other such problems/matters.

Click to shrink...

One such problem that has already turned up is the fact that while the toilets are inside the gravity field not all the plumbing is and zero-G blackwater leaks are a nightmare to handle.

 

[WCSII]

@prince84, You're going to have to be more forceful than that. Currently Darkcore is arguing in an echo chamber, intent on their vision even if they have to make you acknowledge the metrics of canon. I've tried typing something up to explain that that isn't possible... but, I don't currently have the communicative skills to do this politely.

 

[Darkcore41]

@prince84, You're going to have to be more forceful than that. Currently Darkcore is arguing in an echo chamber, intent on their vision even if they have to make you acknowledge the metrics of canon. I've tried typing something up to explain that that isn't possible... but, I don't currently have the communicative skills to do this politely.

Click to shrink...

I've given up since we have WOG that they can still win just with numbers, even the under lords.

 

[Tetra]

[X] Plan Heavy Asgard

The nature and scope of the situation in this quest has been kind of hard to keep tabs on, but this seems slightly better of the two proposals?

 

[prince84]

Goa'uld Competency/Effectiveness Explained (Hopefully)

To clear up some matters that have been clogging up the forum.

1. Goa'uld Tech Competency: The snake's origins as parasitic scavengers hinders them massively in this area as while they retain the DATA that their host knows they never truly absorb the hosts understanding. This means while they can build something their previous host could once they move on and can no longer check the host's brain as a form of cheat sheet ANY deviation from the original blueprints quickly leads to the degradation of the item.

This also affects their "research" efforts as research as we know it is a foreign and unnatural way of dealing with the world. While some can do this it is considered strange/unnatural/untrustworthy even by the standards of the most open of other Goa'uld. This means that unless they produce something EXTREMELY USEFUL they are likely to be relegated to powerless positions or being used as bait by their superiors in the constant conflicts between their betters.

2. Ship Availability: Due to the fact that the Star-Gates as described being logistical nightmares to use for any form of larger-scale economy most of the bulk vital resources need to be carried by transport ships and the fact Goa'uld worlds can be VERY spread out even in space terms and the Goa'uld drive being shit means that they have STRINGS of ships carrying vital supplies across space.

These in turn need armed escorts as the sheer size of space means that it is relatively easy to sneak raiders through the space between systems to intercept shipments.

3. Jaffa Military Effectiveness and their Ball and Chains: The reason that the Goa'uld military is not considered a true threat, is because it does not actually exist. Instead, you have beings with no true understanding of war using (badly) the actual fighters as a combination of chess pieces and glorified gold-plated dick-waving contest

As shown in the show when all things are equal a Jaffa is a nightmare on the battlefield whether on the ground or in space. That said Jaffa are rarely allowed to actually do their jobs. Either they are used as slow-moving unarmoured meat shields, Boggymen for the slaves or meat relays for their stupid orders. The most successful Goa'uld tend to be the ones that give their forces goals and then actually let their Jaffa do their jobs.

All that said if even one of the mid-level Goa'uld was crazy enough to get all his ships together and have them each drop a single bowling ball at Earth at the same time we would lose a hemisphere. They would lose their holdings/worlds to rivals if they did this which is why it has not happened yet.

 

[prince84]

Goa'uld Competency/Effectiveness Explained (Hopefully) 2

Social aspects are being covered here.

1. External Social Sabotage: One area that their past as parasitic scavengers actually helps them is in disrupting or sabotaging the societies of others. Their evolution has left them hypersensitive to detecting faults in societies and slipping into them. From there they use their puppets to expose even more flaws which they instinctually use to isolate their targets. This will continue until either the host society collapses or the Goa'uld has worked their way into positions of absolute power/authority.

2. Internal Social Sabotage: One area that their past as parasitic scavengers absolutely does NOT help them is in their own society. As a result of the aforementioned traits no Goa'uld will fully trust any other Goa'uld and those that do are considered aberrations if not completely insane by the rest of their race and therefore not to be trusted.

3. Goa'uld "Lineages": Something most miss is that nearly every major Goa'uld shown in the show is of the same genetic lineage as RA. Any Goa'uld of the same genetic lineage will have the same defining worldview as it is literally stated to be genetic. The Tok-Ra Queen while she turned against the Slave-Master relationship of her kin still approached the universe as a game of betrayal and betrayed like the rest of her kin.

It is stated in the show that there are other genetic lineages but that as Ra rose in power he made sure to thin their numbers to extreme levels and those that survived were often in minor positions. Part of this (in my mind and in this AU) was because the lineage that gave rise to Ra tended to spawn a dangerously low level of potential queens and even fewer of them ever completed the shift into full queenhood. This meant that if he wanted disposable Jaffa and lower Goa'uld lords he needed the other lineages queens.

 

[DarknessSmiles]

So. I feel the need to point out some things that I dont think you considered @prince84.

1) The stargate is 100% sufficient for the transport of strategic materials such as naquadah and trinium. and for regular industrial materials (such as iron) local mines should be able to supply local industry just fine.

2) ships travelling via FTL are not generally vulnerable to interception (replicator bullshit notwithstanding). nor is their exit point predetermined like it is in Star Wars. ships can exit ftl in or very near orbit of a world. intercepting shipments outside the orbit of a planet should not really happen. and intercepting a shipment in orbit of a hostile world is glorified suicide and probably an act of war not a sneaky raid.

3) The "cargo" ship of the goauld (the Tel'tak) carries less material than could be carried by a hundred guys pulling sleds through a stargate. And that is not even counting the rations the pilots would need for an extended voyage. Unless the Goa'uld have a class of bulk freighter that was never seen during the show or are using their very much not common Ha'tak warships to transport cargo, then they would not be able to transport cargo via spaceship in a effective manner.

4) Goa'uld space is (in general) shown to be very much pre-industrial. there is probably very little interstellar commerce going on. this is the (imo) more rational reasoning behind there not being fleets of cargo ships and massive interstellar trade.

5) Major fleet battles take place between the low dozens of ships at most in stargate. anubis attacked earth with around 30 ships. the battle of Dakara was between about 40 Goauld empire ships and 5 or 6 Rebel ships.

 

[Darkcore41]

3) The "cargo" ship of the goauld (the Tel'tak) carries less material than could be carried by a hundred guys pulling sleds through a stargate. And that is not even counting the rations the pilots would need for an extended voyage. Unless the Goa'uld have a class of bulk freighter that was never seen during the show or are using their very much not common Ha'tak warships to transport cargo, then they would not be able to transport cargo via spaceship in a effective manner.

Click to shrink...

They actually do have a cargo ship, the Lucian Allience used them in the episode they put the bounty on SG1. Its what they used to transport their drugs.

Edit: But i do agree with most of the list since you can fit those xargo containers through a stargate. Also the Ashen used it that way by tilting the gate up to accept produce. Its AU and theres likely a few changes to hyperdrives to make this make sense.

Edit2: Pre-Anubis Hyperdrives are supposed to take months to years to run around. How fast does it go in this AU?

 

[prince84]

1) The stargate is 100% sufficient for the transport of strategic materials such as naquadah and trinium. and for regular industrial materials (such as iron) local mines should be able to supply local industry just fine.

Click to shrink...

Remember that shit tech Goa'uld world tend to use. In may episodes world were declared "mined out" due to their slaves being unable to get to the resources that were actually still there. One or two Ha'tak could easily see a world considered mined out until a new surface seam was found and while the Goa'uld can have their slaves build ships on any world they like keeping even that level of knowledge confined to as few worlds as possible. This means even what we consider basic bulk materials need to be shipped between worlds.

2) ships travelling via FTL are not generally vulnerable to interception (replicator bullshit notwithstanding). nor is their exit point predetermined like it is in Star Wars. ships can exit ftl in or very near orbit of a world. intercepting shipments outside the orbit of a planet should not really happen. and intercepting a shipment in orbit of a hostile world is glorified suicide and probably an act of war not a sneaky raid.

Click to shrink...

Theoretically correct but in practice no. Canon actually addresses this. While you CAN come out of FTL anywhere the closer you are to a gravity well the more difficult it is to come out in a controlled manner or even in one piece. that is why MOST Goa'uld come out of FTL well outside the solar system. That said the better the pilot and FTL drive and/or scanners the closers you can come out.

3) The "cargo" ship of the goauld (the Tel'tak) carries less material than could be carried by a hundred guys pulling sleds through a stargate. And that is not even counting the rations the pilots would need for an extended voyage. Unless the Goa'uld have a class of bulk freighter that was never seen during the show or are using their very much not common Ha'tak warships to transport cargo, then they would not be able to transport cargo via spaceship in a effective manner.

Click to shrink...

You are thinking like a problem-solving hominid, not like a paranoid parasitic scavenger. WHile the Goa'uld like using the Gates to project the appearance of power and godhood and as such will use them for themselves and allow elite Jaffa to go ahead as meatshields the idea of lesser Jaffa and even slaves using them on a regular basis drives them into paranoid fits.

4) Goa'uld space is (in general) shown to be very much pre-industrial. there is probably very little interstellar commerce going on. this is the (imo) more rational reasoning behind there not being fleets of cargo ships and massive interstellar trade.

Click to shrink...

How much Iron alone would be used in one Ha'tak and remember my response to your first point. Also in the show, the System Lords demanded tribute between each other measured in (insert ship type) Hold loads instead of weight/volume in the early seasons.

5) Major fleet battles take place between the low dozens of ships at most in Stargate. anubis attacked earth with around 30 ships. the battle of Dakara was between about 40 Goauld empire ships and 5 or 6 Rebel ships.

Click to shrink...

And those ships were referred to as being "freed up" for the battle/campaigns which meant that they normally had other jobs. Check out Goa'uld Competency/Effectiveness Explained (Hopefully) 2 for why they needed to free them up in the first place.

 

[prince84]

Edit2: Pre-Anubis Hyperdrives are supposed to take months to years to run around. How fast does it go in this AU?

Click to shrink...

Still that slow for Goa'uld basic FTL drives.

 

[Darkcore41]

Oof hopefully we can improve on our hard drives then.

Edit: gotta ask the Asgard if they can speed that up. Atleast we will be forewarned of any invasion coming.

 

[prince84]

Also a quick question, does anyone actually remember what the actual class the Goa'uld cargo ship the Lucians used was called?

 

[Wobb Nox]

Also a quick question, does anyone actually remember what the actual class the Goa'uld cargo ship the Lucians used was called?

Click to shrink...

According to the wiki they're just called Lucian Alliance Freighter, so I think you can make whatever name you want there.

 

[DarknessSmiles]

The lucian alliance freighter is an Al'Kesh towing some cargo pods.

each crate looks to be about 10 meters wide and 15 to 20 meters long with nice tapered corners to significantly reduce cargo capacity.

 

[prince84]

Thanks. I will think on it.

 

[AlphaOmega]

The Greeter at the new Ottarbrook Wal*mart as you entered the store

Click to shrink...

Add 'says' after 'Wallmart'

 

[Lord Cheddar]

[X] Plan - More Mules!

I long for the days when we can drop the charade and finally unleash the full might of the world's MIC on an unsuspecting galaxy (or two). Even at this stage, we could probably do some significant damage to Goa'uld facilities through raids, and possibly even take over some more isolated planets entirely; the Goa'uld are in chaos right now, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some minor system lords with practically no contact with anyone else out there for us to overthrow. Even limited raids would be quite useful; we'd finally be able to get a steady stream of Goa'uld tech to research and complain about.

Speaking of research, I feel that we should probably significantly expand our R&D teams in the near future considering how many possible options we have for R&D and will have soon, especially if we conduct more offensive operations against the Goa'uld in the near future (such as stealing a Ha'tak, for example).
We should probably also start heavily investing in research in AI, automatisation and IT in general. They are powerful force multipliers, and we have just been given a big step up in the field through the Ancient Server Drive. If we do enough research into these fields, eventually we won't even need infantrymen any more: we would be able to flood the galaxy with an unstoppable tide of combat robots and drones.
3000 black Boston Dynamics Ancient robots of Canada for the win!

 

[Darkcore41]

We're tied up, someone break it!

 

[kashim2]

What's the current votes? Work is kicking my ass. So I lost track.

[X] Plan - More Mules!

 

[Judge Mental]

Result: "Core-Tap" Research, Lantian Language patch (Basic) gained, psionics research, Anti-rejection treatments research, Linked "Bit" armaments research

Click to shrink...

And like that, I am hearing the opening notes of Counterattack.

Blast off, and strike the evil Bydo Goa'uld Empire!

...also, pray to all the gods that ever existed and even the ones that were just aliens in cosplay that the Lanteans weren't screwing around with the equivalent of Force units.

They are a midway point between a turret, our current drone systems and the ancient drones in terms of use if not abilities.

Click to shrink...

So armed escort drones.

Click to shrink...

Exactly this. For more information, look up R-Type.

 

[jwolfe_beta]

I long for the days when we can drop the charade and finally unleash the full might of the world's MIC on an unsuspecting galaxy (or two).

Click to shrink...

That would require that we manage to get the entire world all working together.

The USA is going to want to be the leader because they're the USA, then there is Russia, China and everything else.