I share the same general concern about part vs stat cost modifier understandability. But in theory, a well-designed part system should be easier to understand. The ideal scenario would be like playing with Legos, which you should agree would be pretty intuitive. Not sure how close we'll get to that ideal, but the ship design spreadsheet does seem to be slowly shaping up. Once we have a lot more balanced parts, we'll see.
I guess it's just the idea that Oneiros is going to have to keep moving ahead of us, "paving the road" by specifying the part stats, and constantly tinkering with them to maintain balance.

The problem with power creep isn't about balancing against rivals, whether in combat or in events - that's not hard to do, though annoying for the designer to deal with if it's unexpected.

The main problem with power creep is balance against earlier tech and ships, and likewise with later tech. It controls the effective lifespan of ships or the status quo in general, which significantly adjusts our decision making. The secondary problem of power creep is more a flavor issue, but that's much more subjective so I won't bother arguing about that.
That is a fair point, because we do want to maintain backwards compatibility- Excelsiors remaining relevant into the 2370s being the obvious example. If we'd stuck with the 'November rules' for ship design, that would entail being generous with refits, which is manageable but I can see why it might casue frustration.

The specific stats of the Kepler aren't that critical - it's the idea of the Kepler that's important. There have been, what, dozens of Kepler design proposals now? Most of them obsolete even before this revamp? The idea of a better science ship that has superior science and modern escort-level survivability and at decent cost (which is the main problem with the designs at the moment) is the important part. With that goal in mind, it shouldn't be hard to balance parts so that such a design is generally possible, not that a specific stat line at a specific cost must be possible.
Hopefully- although I do hope you see my point.

[Incidentally, I'm already glad to see that someone is trying to do a Kepler and has been reasonably successful]
 
I guess it's just the idea that Oneiros is going to have to keep moving ahead of us, "paving the road" by specifying the part stats, and constantly tinkering with them to maintain balance.

I honestly expect most part stats to be predictably incremental between more "hand-crafted" key parts. Those -2% weight, +2 reliability, etc. from a tier (and size classification) in the current system rolled up into a part or two per tier (and size classification).

The basic idea is that parts at various tiers are going to be balanced and fitted against all existing designs and some of the upcoming original canon stat lines (at least the sensible ones). The same thing probably happened when Oneiros came up with the original design spreadsheet, where instead of part tweaking, it was global tech value and formula tweaking. The custom designs we came up and will come up with in the future ultimately are side effects (of a sort) from all this fitting.

That is a fair point, because we do want to maintain backwards compatibility- Excelsiors remaining relevant into the 2370s being the obvious example. If we'd stuck with the 'November rules' for ship design, that would entail being generous with refits, which is manageable but I can see why it might casue frustration.

Yup, it was this canon compatibility and the whole rapid obsolescence of our designs that made me worry about power creep weeks ago when the super Ambassador designs arrived in force.
 
Thought about this some more.

There is an important decision to make here and that's whether we want both core ship design tech trees and escort/cruiser/explorer ship design tech trees each still produce something that's immediately useful for ship design once researched (currently some global tech value change), and that each of these tech trees are independent of each other. This is the current behavior for ship design research, and I'd think most people want to keep it.
If I was going to drop one of these assumptions I'd drop the 'tech trees are independent of each other' one. In other words, I'm not opposed to the idea that first we'd research a concept, and that would let us research an implementation. The former might require sensors, weapons, or power, while the latter would require a ship class design team. This could be similar to the tech tree from the C.O.R.E. mod, which is probably the best tech tree I've ever seen.

I'd also look into 3a more. Hearts of Iron 2, one of the inspirations for our system, has a concept of 'blueprints' which half the time to research something if you have some idea of how to do it already. For instance, I think researching interwar heavy cruiser gives a blueprint for interwar light cruiser. That seems like an natural way to show that we understand something on one size, so it should be easier to implement on a different size.
Admittedly I may be projecting. I have absolutely no intuitive feel for how the 'part assembly' approach is supposed to work, and because of the way my brain works it is actually easier for me to understand a succession of "-2% to combat weights" and so on.
It comes across to me much like the system MoO3 has. If anyone else said this, then it might be an insult, but I actually liked that game.
I guess it's just the idea that Oneiros is going to have to keep moving ahead of us, "paving the road" by specifying the part stats, and constantly tinkering with them to maintain balance.
It looks like @OneirosTheWriter enjoys this sort of playing with spreadsheets. If he didn't, I'd be very supportive of telling him to spend less time on it, but the opposite is the case if this is one of the parts he likes about the game. Telling the quest master to take less enjoyment from running the quest never seem to be a winning strategy.
 
...Put this way.

I have had misgivings, and I still do. I'm not going to pretend otherwise, among other things because I feel like someone should be there to stick up for the idea of "don't change the rules in the middle of the game."

At the same time, I recognize that it's not my call and that a lot of other people are telling me it's fine. I respect most of their opinions, so I don't want to raise too much of a stink about this.
 
That is a fair point, because we do want to maintain backwards compatibility- Excelsiors remaining relevant into the 2370s being the obvious example. If we'd stuck with the 'November rules' for ship design, that would entail being generous with refits, which is manageable but I can see why it might casue frustration.
This also gives a much more transparent method for determining refits.
 
This also gives a much more transparent method for determining refits.

I could certainly see refits as "lock in hull sizes, frame, hull, and engines, change and update anything else" or something similar. Possibly lock fuel tank, possibly not...


At least Enterprise to Enterprise-A was new nacelles, and a new deflector dish.

This means you have a mostly fixed power budget but can play a bit with conduits to get a bit more or less. This also means you are encouraged to go high on engines and hull for design, so you can go back and push up the hull stat better with more SIF.
 
If I was going to drop one of these assumptions I'd drop the 'tech trees are independent of each other' one. In other words, I'm not opposed to the idea that first we'd research a concept, and that would let us research an implementation. The former might require sensors, weapons, or power, while the latter would require a ship class design team. This could be similar to the tech tree from the C.O.R.E. mod, which is probably the best tech tree I've ever seen.

Well, the main problem with this is that adding core ship design node prerequisites to escort/cruiser/explorer ship design nodes for the same tier would be a huge change in our research tree. And unlike the ship design spreadsheet, the research tree actually is in full "production" use. At the very least, we'd need to grandfather in the lack of such prerequisites for tier 1 and 2. Even then, the escort/cruiser/explorer ship design techs need to provide good value (see below on the why reducing research time may not be good enough.)

I'd also look into 3a more. Hearts of Iron 2, one of the inspirations for our system, has a concept of 'blueprints' which half the time to research something if you have some idea of how to do it already. For instance, I think researching interwar heavy cruiser gives a blueprint for interwar light cruiser. That seems like an natural way to show that we understand something on one size, so it should be easier to implement on a different size.

I like the concept. However, it only works out if it decreases the total research+prototype time by a significant percentage, or perhaps reduced some other cost. Otherwise, the decrease in research time wouldn't be very consequential. Supposing that full research into the explorer ship design for a tier halves research time, an original research time of 3 years, and prototype an additional 6 years, then we only reduce total project time by 17%.
 
Just tried to do an Excelsior refit that was upgrading nacelles, computers, and then juggling some of the component mix and secondary power systems, and got:

Class Excelsior Refit test
C7 S6 H5 L6 P6 D7 - 230br/150sr/2295kt - O6/E6/T6
Power 207/216 Rel %: -0.01%
Article:
Components:
8 [T0] Model 83 Twin Phaser Bank 5 [T0] Explorer Diplomatic Package '85 5 [T0] Excelsior Block-1 Warp Core
0 No Phasers 2 [T0] 2280s Rec Space 0 0 Safety Factor
2 [T0] Type-II Auto System 2 [T0] S-Medical '84 Pattern Sickbay 2 [T0] Mk VII Sublimator-Compressor
6 [T0] Mark-V-Heavy LR Sensor Array 3 [T0] Duranium-447 Alloy Hull 2 [T0] Mk VI Mod L Coolant System
6 [T0] Mark-V-Heavy SR Lateral Sensor Array 6 [T0] Type-IV-H SIF 3 [T0] Tellar HIG-92 Pulse Injection Manifold
4 [T0] Mark-V Nav Sensors 8 [T0] Mk-III-H Shield Gens Manual Ejection
0 No Survey Sensors 2 [T0] Mk-III-H Shield Gens
3 [T0] Spock-Pattern Lab 1 [T0] Advanced Graviton Beam Deflector Module:
8 [T2] Type-IV-B Duotronic Core (Lg) 4 [T0] SDB-86 Impulse Drive Sys
8 [T2] Majel 3.1 Explorer OS 2 [T1] Excelsior Type-II Pattern Nacelles
1 [T2] Type-IV-B Duotronic Core (Lg) 2 [T0] S-Medical Mk IV Protein Synth
1 [T2] Predictive Targeting Array 1 [T0] 2285-Super-Heavy Pattern Deuterium


Got a solid +1 everything with not much at all to spare.
 
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Just tried to do an Excelsior refit that was upgrading nacelles, computers, and then juggling some of the component mix and secondary power systems, and got:

Class Excelsior Refit test
C7 S6 H5 L6 P6 D7 - 230br/150sr/2295kt - O6/E6/T6
Power 207/216 Rel %: -0.01%
Article:
Components:
8 [T0] Model 83 Twin Phaser Bank 5 [T0] Explorer Diplomatic Package '85 5 [T0] Excelsior Block-1 Warp Core
0 No Phasers 2 [T0] 2280s Rec Space 0 0 Safety Factor
2 [T0] Type-II Auto System 2 [T0] S-Medical '84 Pattern Sickbay 2 [T0] Mk VII Sublimator-Compressor
6 [T0] Mark-V-Heavy LR Sensor Array 3 [T0] Duranium-447 Alloy Hull 2 [T0] Mk VI Mod L Coolant System
6 [T0] Mark-V-Heavy SR Lateral Sensor Array 6 [T0] Type-IV-H SIF 3 [T0] Tellar HIG-92 Pulse Injection Manifold
4 [T0] Mark-V Nav Sensors 8 [T0] Mk-III-H Shield Gens Manual Ejection
0 No Survey Sensors 2 [T0] Mk-III-H Shield Gens
3 [T0] Spock-Pattern Lab 1 [T0] Advanced Graviton Beam Deflector Module:
8 [T2] Type-IV-B Duotronic Core (Lg) 4 [T0] SDB-86 Impulse Drive Sys
8 [T2] Majel 3.1 Explorer OS 2 [T1] Excelsior Type-II Pattern Nacelles
1 [T2] Type-IV-B Duotronic Core (Lg) 2 [T0] S-Medical Mk IV Protein Synth
1 [T2] Predictive Targeting Array 1 [T0] 2285-Super-Heavy Pattern Deuterium


Got a solid +1 everything with not much at all to spare.

I think the question is what would the cost of what's changed be? Nacelles, computers, and the power system seems fairly significant.

We certainly can rip out the guts of a ship and install new guts, but after a certain point we're just making a new ship. It does pretty clearly show where pocket explorer design is at right now, though.
 
The secondary problem of power creep is more a flavor issue, but that's much more subjective so I won't bother arguing about that.
I honestly think there isn't big enough stat differences between the different generations of ships at the moment. A degree of power creep, as long a refits keep up somewhat, would be a rather good thing, I believe.

I mean have people actually considered that with the current stats it only takes two baseline Escelsiors to match a Sovereign. If it can focus on one of them the Sovereign has a durability edge due to how stat penalties work, but a combat focused design from 90 years later with multiple game changer technologies should tear though anything short of an actual fleet.
 
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I honestly think there isn't big enough stat differences between the different generations of ships at the moment. A degree of power creep, as long a refits keep up somewhat, would be a rather good thing, I believe.

I mean have people actually considered that with the current stats it only takes two baseline Escelsiors to match a Sovereign. If it can focus on one of them the Sovereign has a durability edge due to how stat penalties work, but a combat focused design from 90 years later with multiple game changer technologies should tear though anything short of an actual fleet.

A Sovvie would also have significant shield burn-through and Regen, more evasion, and ways to reduce enemy evasion. Plus bonii from Lone Ranger. Stats aren't everything, and we only have a techtree up to 2340.
 
A Sovvie would also have significant shield burn-through and Regen, more evasion, and ways to reduce enemy evasion. Plus bonii from Lone Ranger. Stats aren't everything, and we only have a techtree up to 2340.
Except, with the possible exception of shield regen, those are all small incremental bonuses and while they add up to reasonable benefits, even with them a Sovereign is still has no where near the comparative combat ability to an Excelsior it really should have.
 
This means you have a mostly fixed power budget but can play a bit with conduits to get a bit more or less. This also means you are encouraged to go high on engines and hull for design, so you can go back and push up the hull stat better with more SIF.

I do think we can replace the warp core, but it's gonna be damn expensive and add on a lot of refit time.

We certainly can rip out the guts of a ship and install new guts, but after a certain point we're just making a new ship. It does pretty clearly show where pocket explorer design is at right now, though.

There's definitely a threshold somewhere, but even if a refit costs a lot in terms of br/sr and refit time, they're still great for saving crew. New designs and refit designs are complementary in that sense. Building new designs gets us better ships but at the cost of crew, while the refitting ships could be less efficient in terms of stat improvement per br/sr, but at least they would be crew efficient.

I honestly think there isn't big enough stat differences between the different generations of ships at the moment. A degree of power creep, as long a refits keep up somewhat, would be a rather good thing, I believe.

So here's why I don't like power creep from a flavor and setting perspective: I actually find it hard to believe, in the suspension of disbelief kind of way, that tech can progress so rapidly to more than double ship effectiveness in a single century, yet other spacefaring powers that have been warp capable for several centuries, sometimes millennia, aren't galactic superpowers already with exponential tech growth.

There's only so much you can handwave away, like the Federation getting a head start from combining resources of at least 3 nations that have had centuries of warp tech, to Orions being in a constant state of dysfunction, to civilization ending catastrophes. Just imagine what the Federation in the 31st century would be like with the exponential tech growth both canon and TBG have.

It's like playing any of the current 4X space games and not expecting the galaxy to be dominated or at least be fully explored by a millennia.

I mean have people actually considered that with the current stats it only takes two baseline Escelsiors to match a Sovereign. If it can focus on one of them the Sovereign has a durability edge due to how stat penalties work, but a combat focused design from 90 years later with multiple game changer technologies should tear though anything short of an actual fleet.

With the way combat mechanics work and even with no focus firing, a single Sovereign is favored to win against two Excelsiors at those canon stat lines. In events, a single Sovereign would be superior at higher event DCs than two Excelsiors together.

Three Excelsiors would likely be favored against a single Sovereign. I'm fine with that.

And I do think that Sovereign (and Galaxy) may end up being more powerful than those early stat lines show. 40 and 60 years is a long time from now.
 
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For the Ship by component, I scaled an Excelsior about 120% to Galaxy size with no new tech and no fiddling with parts, and got a 4.6 Mt ship at C10 S9 H8 L8 P9 D9 for 465/295 with crew reqs of 16/14/15, Stats are almost 11/9/8/9/10/10 (cost to 465/300 with same crew). So, if we could build size 17 ships, we could build something around the list Galaxy for about 50% more crew, and not much else.

Thought this might be interesting as a window into how the part system is shaping out.
 
Given the new design sheet under development, thoughts on a new science escort sooner rather than later? It seems to partially fix the crew issues we had with the old sheet designs. Given how the main thread seems to love Oberths, a proper science escort would be a big deal.
 
Speaking of escorts, I think we might want to consider a 'cutter' type light escort-a corvette sized counterpart to the New Orleans, which would be focused on Defense, customs duty, and being offered as a design to the more resource-strapped members. Without the Soyuz, Starfleet has only 600K and up ships available until 2360. A ship designed to have a minimum of crew, and cost a modest amount, might be looked on favorably by the various members. Slate it in sometime after we finish the Ambassador and the Kepler.
 
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With the current form (concept 2 for people looking at the design sheets), small ships are harder, even using the most current techs.

Right now, I'm playing with science ships.

For a science cruiser, I have:

Class Tycho Brahe
C3 S8 H3 L4 P3 D3 - 100br/60sr/944kt/3yr - O2/E2/T2
Power 124/127 Reliability 100%
Cruiser Evasion 22.82%

vs. science escourt

Class Spyglass
C2 S6 H2 L3 P2 D2 - 70br/45sr/654kt/2yr - O1/E2/T2
Power 82/82 Reliability 100%
Escort Evasion 26.14%

I can cut the SR on the Tycho, but at the cost of going to T3 (by swapping nacelles and a few other tweaks).
 
With the current form (concept 2 for people looking at the design sheets), small ships are harder, even using the most current techs.

Right now, I'm playing with science ships.

For a science cruiser, I have:

Class Tycho Brahe
C3 S8 H3 L4 P3 D3 - 100br/60sr/944kt/3yr - O2/E2/T2
Power 124/127 Reliability 100%
Cruiser Evasion 22.82%

vs. science escourt

Class Spyglass
C2 S6 H2 L3 P2 D2 - 70br/45sr/654kt/2yr - O1/E2/T2
Power 82/82 Reliability 100%
Escort Evasion 26.14%

I can cut the SR on the Tycho, but at the cost of going to T3 (by swapping nacelles and a few other tweaks).
If we made an intel Escort/cruiser, I would like to have a better defense.
 
There's something to be said for a deliberate intel escort I guess, militarization notwithstanding, but the science ship should not pump defense, as that will cause it to respond to events its not suited to. If we make a separate intel/awacs class, then that's a different story.
 
@OneirosTheWriter are the new sheet's low crew values intentional, or will you increase crew requirements later?
Fine tuning the crew amounts is something I need to do. Further part values will not increase nearly as much unless you get actual transformative techs (phaser arrays, isolinear comps, etc). The vertical warp cores were one such transformative tech.

I probably need to get rid of the quantity discount in the crew requirements (the log component).
 
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