De3ta
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OLD NEW REPUBLIC VS NEW OLD REPUBLIC! and other such things.
Star Wars New Canon Fight Club. (Legends and Disney EU Discussion)
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OLD NEW REPUBLIC VS NEW OLD REPUBLIC! and other such things.
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how many executors could the supremacy take on plz discuss
Executor is knife while Supremacy is wing
Knife > wing
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- The Intellectual, Moral, and Literal High Ground
Turning ships sideways was actually a tactic Thrawn used. And it worked.
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ok but tactical art critique was also one of Thrawn's signatures
and using clones that had more "u"s in their names
That's actually kind of an amusing topic, continuity-wise, because from a Doylist standpoint, the tactic was first introduced by Thrawn in the old EU. The writers of the Clone Wars series then had Ahsoka use it in one of their episodes, which took place decades before the Thrawn trilogy. So in-setting, Thrawn was actually using a tactic first devised by Ahsoka. And since the Clone Wars series is still in continuity for Disney canon, that means that the tactic is still around, though I don't think we've seen Thrawn use it yet in Rebels.
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Actually we don't know if Ahsoka used it before Thrawn in the new canon because there's no evidence he hasn't used it. And since the Thrawn Trilogy is not compatible with the new canon, then it's unknown if Thrawn used it at all
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Okay. I'll throw my hat into the ring.
I've often seen people complaining that sequels suck because they undo the victory in the original trilogy by having the First Order destroy the New Republic.
However, I completely disagree with this assessment. In Disney, the Rebels won. The Empire was finished and became a complete non-entity. They had 29 years or something of peace. And the Sith are (actually and truly) extinct too.
In Legends, they never stopped fighting either one. If it wasn't Imperial Moffs it was Darkside Prophets. If it wasn't Prophets it was Admirals previously living under rocks. If it wasn't Admirals it was Sith Ghosts. If it wasn't Sith Ghosts it was clones of Palpatine. If it wasn't Sidious clones it was Imperial warlords. If it wasn't Warlords it was dark Jedi. And on and on. It never ended.
Disney didn't undo the victory at Endor. It reaffirmed it.
I've often seen people complaining that sequels suck because they undo the victory in the original trilogy by having the First Order destroy the New Republic.
However, I completely disagree with this assessment. In Disney, the Rebels won. The Empire was finished and became a complete non-entity. They had 29 years or something of peace. And the Sith are (actually and truly) extinct too.
In Legends, they never stopped fighting either one. If it wasn't Imperial Moffs it was Darkside Prophets. If it wasn't Prophets it was Admirals previously living under rocks. If it wasn't Admirals it was Sith Ghosts. If it wasn't Sith Ghosts it was clones of Palpatine. If it wasn't Sidious clones it was Imperial warlords. If it wasn't Warlords it was dark Jedi. And on and on. It never ended.
Disney didn't undo the victory at Endor. It reaffirmed it.
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ValhaHazred
The Littlest Murderhobo
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Is Lucas a Scientologist? Reading that makes me think of Body Thetans.
I'm still not convinced he wasn't joking. Granted truth is stranger than fiction but it just seems like an obvious attempt to wind people up.
dhasenan
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One thing I saw in the original trilogy and even more sharply in Legends was a sense of scale. In Legends, you had warlords with at least a few dozen capital ships controlling dozens of worlds, for instance. It wasn't enough to sell me on an entire Milky Way's worth of people, but maybe like a small dwarf galaxy? Tens of thousands of inhabited systems, maybe?
The new canon doesn't do that. I thought it was because the New Republic was doing its thing, solidifying its position, and the New Order was essentially one of the more notable warlord groups. They held a few hundred inhabited systems, were building out their shipyards, and were indoctrinating entire planets. Maybe they were the biggest group, maybe they were just the most evil, but the Resistance is there to do what the Republic is not.
But that's apparently just the backstory for the First Order. It launched a decapitation strike and immediately took control over a huge swath of territory from the New Republic. And their giant fleet is one ridiculously oversized ship and like a dozen capital ships.
This makes sense for a government with a few dozen inhabited planets. That's not a galaxy; it's barely a zodiac.
Am I the only one bothered by that?
The new canon doesn't do that. I thought it was because the New Republic was doing its thing, solidifying its position, and the New Order was essentially one of the more notable warlord groups. They held a few hundred inhabited systems, were building out their shipyards, and were indoctrinating entire planets. Maybe they were the biggest group, maybe they were just the most evil, but the Resistance is there to do what the Republic is not.
But that's apparently just the backstory for the First Order. It launched a decapitation strike and immediately took control over a huge swath of territory from the New Republic. And their giant fleet is one ridiculously oversized ship and like a dozen capital ships.
This makes sense for a government with a few dozen inhabited planets. That's not a galaxy; it's barely a zodiac.
Am I the only one bothered by that?
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I'll give you Legends, but I NEVER got this sense of scale people keep talking about from the OT.
Could you provide some examples?
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I won't pretend I know the arguments but I suspect that critique is mainly a reaction to the Last Jedi having the Resistance go from being a few cap ships to a few dozen men on the Falcon whereas with the OT the Rebellion always felt like it had enough men and material to be a threat to the Empire. At the end of Empire we have the large Rebel fleet at the end of the film and in ROTJ we have that fleet going to action and overcome the Emperor's best ships with help form our heroes. Even during the medal scene in ANH when the main base has lost almost all of its fighters it still seems like the Rebellion is large enough and strong enough to recover and continue the fight from the numbers at the awards ceremony.
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Synthesis
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It's the seduction of big evil versus small good (as I've often said rather boringly). It's why, after the destruction of something so massive even the Galactic Empire would've felt its loss, at least for the time, the First Order doesn't seem to miss a single step after Starkiller Base (I'm still not feeling the name, yes, I get it's an homage to the early script) when TLJ begins some 15 minutes after TFA ended.
The idea empire would be so massive its ships would blot out the visible universe, while the ideal rebellion would be small enough to fit in a bathtub. Or, as the case may be, the size of a regulation bowling team, which is pretty close to what we're left with at the end of TLJ. But the funny, even "ironic" twist of this is that someone dictated from on high (part of one committee or another, Disney has this sort of thing pretty ordered, or at least I think so) that ROTJ can't end with a Pyrrhic or even minor victory for the Rebel Alliance. There had to be a total route very soon after. There are a few reason for this--I think a lot of them are tied into this notion of not wanting to fall into the "trap" of the old canon, to establish yourself as immediately different. No 30-round drag-out fight between a bloodied but not necessarily beaten Empire and a gradually growing Republic. That's dumb and time consuming, etc.
So the notion--that at its height, the Empire had tens of thousands of ships of the line or more (many of which would star destroyers), basically the naval doctrine it inherited from the Republic but on steroids. And if it turned out the Rebellion actually had tens of thousands of comparable ships, that would sap some of the romance out of the glorious struggle (and present some awkward questions in things like Rogue One, etc.) The answer is to shrink the Empire into practically microscopic force, that can have its back broken in two major confrontations so badly that it just...fades away. Assuming a galaxy of tens of billions of stars (sort of in the middle of our galaxies), and at least tens of millions of habitable worlds (probably well below minimum range for a setting where habitable worlds are as common as this one), it's really hard to imagine an autocratic Galactic Empire imposing its iron fist on anything if the lost of every ship at Jakku (including...about 30 ships of the line?) represented a major portion of its total military might. You can't very well have a couple destroyers just show up over a yokel planet in open rebellion or trying to smuggle droids with crucial military secrets to the enemy if you only have a hundred or so of those ships at the high estimate, if this is ever happening more than once at a time. But ignore the later-canon numbers, which actually are fleshed out in supplementary material (if at the low end of the estimates): the major point is to establish that there is no "Warlord era", something that dates back to the earliest major literature (like the Thrawn Trilogy, and the X-Wing novels after it). Because there was no warlords: one day (or month), there was an Empire. The next month, there wasn't. The new committees would argue this is an improvement (because the First Order, pure, undiluted villainy allegedly free of politics, bureaucracy, and malicious hand-wringing, is a superior enemy than a string of competing post-Empire potentates, your Zsinjs, your Moff Kaines, etc.). This was all part of the Emperor's master plan (not smart enough to win the war, but smart enough make sure they definitely lost it), which is nefarious sounding enough....except it leaves behind the First Order, and that causes problems.
These elements sound contradictory. That's sort of the point. Just like how the First Order, an imitation Galactic Empire that is supposed to have been highly marginalized and confined to the unexplored fringes of space (how it survived in the first place, because they otherwise possess a level of subtlety even the most incompetent government would notice) before revealing itself could complete a weapon more massive than the entire Imperial military combined, an artificial planet. At least to me, it sounds like the new films, and their associated books, are introducing a number of concepts (hopefully interesting ones) that are occasionally at odds with each other. Priority: the rebels most always be small, sexy, and supremely good. Priority: the empire must always be massive, incompetent, and supremely evil. Decisive outcomes are needed. The odds must always be against our heroes...again and again and again. Don't sweat out the details or seeming inconsistencies, most people don't care about that (which is probably true).
Maybe it was inevitable. It's not like the old literature of the expanded universe didn't frequently contradict itself, albeit in different ways, and as far as I know the new literature and films are being introduced at such a rapid pace as to rival or even surpass the last canon. It's been 3 years since TFA, right? Slightly less? We've had four major films, a dozen books and growing, and a few video games. The "expanded universe" had 3 additional major films (which are still in use and perhaps don't count), a massive library of books, and a long list of video games....over more than 30 years.
Or I'm completely misunderstanding the situation and imagining problems where there are none. It's just a theory, and by my own admission I'm mostly ignoring these new materials unless someone drags me to a movie theater (I've only seen TLJ and Solo once, TFA one and a half times, and Rogue One twice).
The idea empire would be so massive its ships would blot out the visible universe, while the ideal rebellion would be small enough to fit in a bathtub. Or, as the case may be, the size of a regulation bowling team, which is pretty close to what we're left with at the end of TLJ. But the funny, even "ironic" twist of this is that someone dictated from on high (part of one committee or another, Disney has this sort of thing pretty ordered, or at least I think so) that ROTJ can't end with a Pyrrhic or even minor victory for the Rebel Alliance. There had to be a total route very soon after. There are a few reason for this--I think a lot of them are tied into this notion of not wanting to fall into the "trap" of the old canon, to establish yourself as immediately different. No 30-round drag-out fight between a bloodied but not necessarily beaten Empire and a gradually growing Republic. That's dumb and time consuming, etc.
So the notion--that at its height, the Empire had tens of thousands of ships of the line or more (many of which would star destroyers), basically the naval doctrine it inherited from the Republic but on steroids. And if it turned out the Rebellion actually had tens of thousands of comparable ships, that would sap some of the romance out of the glorious struggle (and present some awkward questions in things like Rogue One, etc.) The answer is to shrink the Empire into practically microscopic force, that can have its back broken in two major confrontations so badly that it just...fades away. Assuming a galaxy of tens of billions of stars (sort of in the middle of our galaxies), and at least tens of millions of habitable worlds (probably well below minimum range for a setting where habitable worlds are as common as this one), it's really hard to imagine an autocratic Galactic Empire imposing its iron fist on anything if the lost of every ship at Jakku (including...about 30 ships of the line?) represented a major portion of its total military might. You can't very well have a couple destroyers just show up over a yokel planet in open rebellion or trying to smuggle droids with crucial military secrets to the enemy if you only have a hundred or so of those ships at the high estimate, if this is ever happening more than once at a time. But ignore the later-canon numbers, which actually are fleshed out in supplementary material (if at the low end of the estimates): the major point is to establish that there is no "Warlord era", something that dates back to the earliest major literature (like the Thrawn Trilogy, and the X-Wing novels after it). Because there was no warlords: one day (or month), there was an Empire. The next month, there wasn't. The new committees would argue this is an improvement (because the First Order, pure, undiluted villainy allegedly free of politics, bureaucracy, and malicious hand-wringing, is a superior enemy than a string of competing post-Empire potentates, your Zsinjs, your Moff Kaines, etc.). This was all part of the Emperor's master plan (not smart enough to win the war, but smart enough make sure they definitely lost it), which is nefarious sounding enough....except it leaves behind the First Order, and that causes problems.
These elements sound contradictory. That's sort of the point. Just like how the First Order, an imitation Galactic Empire that is supposed to have been highly marginalized and confined to the unexplored fringes of space (how it survived in the first place, because they otherwise possess a level of subtlety even the most incompetent government would notice) before revealing itself could complete a weapon more massive than the entire Imperial military combined, an artificial planet. At least to me, it sounds like the new films, and their associated books, are introducing a number of concepts (hopefully interesting ones) that are occasionally at odds with each other. Priority: the rebels most always be small, sexy, and supremely good. Priority: the empire must always be massive, incompetent, and supremely evil. Decisive outcomes are needed. The odds must always be against our heroes...again and again and again. Don't sweat out the details or seeming inconsistencies, most people don't care about that (which is probably true).
Maybe it was inevitable. It's not like the old literature of the expanded universe didn't frequently contradict itself, albeit in different ways, and as far as I know the new literature and films are being introduced at such a rapid pace as to rival or even surpass the last canon. It's been 3 years since TFA, right? Slightly less? We've had four major films, a dozen books and growing, and a few video games. The "expanded universe" had 3 additional major films (which are still in use and perhaps don't count), a massive library of books, and a long list of video games....over more than 30 years.
Or I'm completely misunderstanding the situation and imagining problems where there are none. It's just a theory, and by my own admission I'm mostly ignoring these new materials unless someone drags me to a movie theater (I've only seen TLJ and Solo once, TFA one and a half times, and Rogue One twice).
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I do think that Disney's problem is basically capitalism. They are approaching Star Wars like the MCU and trying to just churn stuff out- and frankly I wonder if it will be sustainable. I mean even the prequels were spaced out somewhat- whereas now we've had four movies in three years.
On top of that what we have gotten in "New EU" terms has been pretty mixed. On the one hand Rebels was fairly decent (albeit the two Jedi cast members were planks of wood and it suffered somewhat from "this is a Disney cartoon for children" which is by its nature a bit contradictory with the whole "Dark Times" setting) and from what I've heard the new Thrawn book and Bloodlines were pretty good. On the other hand, EA has put out not one but two "Battlefront" games which, frankly, don't hold a candle to the originals (and can I say that it's super annoying that they decided to name them "Battlefront" and "Battlefront II"- I mean, maybe if the games were decent I'd accept it, but they're basically trying to erase/ignore the old games despite them being much better than the new ones), Solo and Rogue One, while fun, were probably unnecessary (and Solo was a massive bomb), and TFA and TLJ have their own problems as well.
If Resistance, or whatever new "game" EA puts out, or Episode 9 underperforms, then I suspect Disney's executives will start to rethink their current strategy.
On top of that what we have gotten in "New EU" terms has been pretty mixed. On the one hand Rebels was fairly decent (albeit the two Jedi cast members were planks of wood and it suffered somewhat from "this is a Disney cartoon for children" which is by its nature a bit contradictory with the whole "Dark Times" setting) and from what I've heard the new Thrawn book and Bloodlines were pretty good. On the other hand, EA has put out not one but two "Battlefront" games which, frankly, don't hold a candle to the originals (and can I say that it's super annoying that they decided to name them "Battlefront" and "Battlefront II"- I mean, maybe if the games were decent I'd accept it, but they're basically trying to erase/ignore the old games despite them being much better than the new ones), Solo and Rogue One, while fun, were probably unnecessary (and Solo was a massive bomb), and TFA and TLJ have their own problems as well.
If Resistance, or whatever new "game" EA puts out, or Episode 9 underperforms, then I suspect Disney's executives will start to rethink their current strategy.
dhasenan
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Point. The best the original trilogy did was with the Battle of Endor, which showed 10-20 Star Destroyers, as I recall, and dozens of fighters.