Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri: Iterations

[Night_stalker]

[X] Try to determine what Skinner knows, if anything, about the disappearances of your people.
[X] Reprogram the Supply Crawler and plant new local crops in Chiron's soil. [+3 Nutrients ∞, +1 Planet]
[X] Build an Agricultural Research Lab. [-2 Construction Supplies, +1 Planet] (This will increase your Explore output.)

 

[TaliesinSkye]

I like Skinner.

He is refreshingly transactional, and has approached us with good faith and respect. The implications here are that unlike literally every other faction leader we've met, we can establish a productive positive-sum relationship -- that he can be bought, and stay bought.

He will not, for example, stab us if our Planet rating goes too low, or if we make governance choices he doesn't approve of, or if we don't impose some dehumanizing ideological set of values, or don't install enough datajacks in the population - and while they're too big to flip like we flipped the Spartans, they're a lot closer to our values than most.

We would, in that respect, not be the first liberal democracy to issue letters of marque and reprisal, or to employ privateers. While I don't think Svensgaard will go for that -- yet -- I think it's not outside the realm of possibility.

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Don't forget that he's a murderer and a slaver, regardless of how charming he can be. He's almost certainly enslaved our missing people already.

If we did work with him he would be getting something out of the arrangement. Resources, probably. He would use those resources to murder and enslave other people.

That's just not morally defensible.

The Peacekeeper option here is, ironically, to kill them all.

I suppose I would be in favor of making a 'deal' to 'buy back' our missing people. Then we turn on them and kill them all instead of paying them. That would be fine.

 

[Crazycryodude]

Article 100 of UNCLOS provides that "[a]ll States shall cooperate to the fullest possible extent in the repression of piracy on the high seas or in any other place outside the jurisdiction of any State."

If we're gonna insist on being hidebound conservatives clinging to our ancient Earth document, might as well cling to all of it.

 

[entropino]

[x] Ask who else Skinner knows.

 

[Secretariat]

Don't forget that he's a murderer and a slaver, regardless of how charming he can be. He's almost certainly enslaved our missing people already.

If we did work with him he would be getting something out of the arrangement. Resources, probably. He would use those resources to murder and enslave other people.

That's just not morally defensible.

The Peacekeeper option here is, ironically, to kill them all.

I suppose I would be in favor of making a 'deal' to 'buy back' our missing people. Then we turn on them and kill them all instead of paying them. That would be fine.

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There are no native humans on Alpha Centauri -- any people who are being enslaved are Unity colonists. What's more, the average Unity colonist are people who grew up in a world recognizable to us; living in factions with strong ideological agendas is going to be as weird to them as it would be to us.

Given that, we have a moral duty to rescue as many of them as possible; what's more, on a practical level, increasing our population at the expense of factions who are likely to be our ideological competitors now pays considerable dividends later.

If the Pirates are able to do this mission for us -- incurring the casualties and diplomacy hits for doing so, but gaining the salvage from hitting the "grotesque" factions -- that serves both our agendas.

As such, I can see cooperation with the Pirates, along the following lines:

• The Pirates transport refugees wishing to depart other factions to Warm Welcome, and affirmatively seek them out.
  • Ships transporting refugees will be allowed to pass through Warm Welcome unhindered.
• The Pirates stop taking Peacekeeper prisoners.
• We provide the Pirates heavy equipment and friendly ports.

(Given that we have 3 Talents and 3 other colonists, this kind of arrangement, where a steady flow of immigrants/refugees comes to Warm Welcome fleeing perseuction, also provides thematic justification for the POPULATION BOOM!! we should be undergoing right now...)

 

[TaliesinSkye]

There are no native humans on Alpha Centauri -- any people who are being enslaved are Unity colonists. What's more, the average Unity colonist are people who grew up in a world recognizable to us; living in factions with strong ideological agendas is going to be as weird to them as it would be to us.

Given that, we have a moral duty to rescue as many of them as possible; what's more, on a practical level, increasing our population at the expense of factions who are likely to be our ideological competitors now pays considerable dividends later.

If the Pirates are able to do this mission for us -- incurring the casualties and diplomacy hits for doing so, but gaining the salvage from hitting the "grotesque" factions -- that serves both our agendas.

As such, I can see cooperation with the Pirates, along the following lines:

• The Pirates transport refugees wishing to depart other factions to Warm Welcome, and affirmatively seek them out.
  • Ships transporting refugees will be allowed to pass through Warm Welcome unhindered.
• The Pirates stop taking Peacekeeper prisoners.
• We provide the Pirates heavy equipment and friendly ports.

(Given that we have 3 Talents and 3 other colonists, this kind of arrangement, where a steady flow of immigrants/refugees comes to Warm Welcome fleeing perseuction, also provides thematic justification for the POPULATION BOOM!! we should be undergoing right now...)

Click to shrink...

On a diplomatic level, I don't think we can trust the pirates to deal with us honestly. How many of those refugees would disappear on the way? We would never know.

On a utilitarian level, over time we would be feeding an envious monster, helping it grow. And one day when it felt large enough to take what we have, it would turn on us. To help the pirates for near term gain would be shortsighted.

On a domestic level, helping pirates is in direct contravention to our stated beliefs and legal system. The UN does not condone piracy. We could run into serious morale issues as we cause our own people to doubt us as someone with integrity who believes in ideals as they do. It would also prove to the Spartans that they were wrong about Lal being someone of integrity.

Finally, on a moral level aiding them is utterly repugnant. We amplify the harm they do by enabling them. We minimize the harm by killing them all.

 

[Crazycryodude]

Buying slaves just means the slavers now have a guaranteed profit and should go out and take twice as many hoping to sucker you into buying/"ransoming"/"granting asylum"/etc. that batch too. If you want to stop a slaver you shoot them, you don't pay them.

 

[Trenacker]

Some of you are voting for things that require construction supplies without voting to create more construction supplies, and we're all out.

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If you don't have Construction Supplies or War Stores, your production lines will eventually print them.

To learn how to build a broader range of materials or more complicated industry, you will need to invest more research into Build or Discover.

On the Discord, you asked:

A question. We currently have 8 minerals stored and an income of +5. Can we direct the printers to build 13 construction supplies, or only 8?

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At the start of the next update, you will have 13 Minerals, assuming no disruption to your extractive economy. You can direct the printers to produce as many of an output as you like. If you do not have the minerals or equivalent mass or supplies, you will be delayed until you accumulate them, which will proceed automatically.

A note on the pirates. The law on Earth is that piracy and slavery are two of the very few crimes of universal jurisdiction. Anyone who engages in them is hostis humani generis, the enemy of all mankind. Assuming the U.N. charter incorporated standard international law, we have every legal right to refuse to recognize the Nautilus Pirates as a legitimate polity with diplomatic protections for envoys, and every right to arrest any of their people we find, give them perfunctory trials, and execute them. Hanging is the traditional method, but a bullet to the head is adequate.

And I think that's how we should handle these idiots after we finish pumping them for information. Pirates and slavers are the absolute worst of humanity, and we do everyone a favor when we reduce their numbers. We should even make agreements with any other factions we meet that there will be perpetual war against them from all sides. They need to be eradicated.

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I like your philosophizing. Nice work fitting direct action into the moral context of the Peacekeeping Forces. Please take an extra vote.

If we're allowed to order extra materials that we don't yet have the minerals for, then I'm all for that.

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You may.

If that is possible it is more efficient to order 12 construction supplied and also some war stocks again (in the same order). one line produces 3 per day, we will not run out with current mineral production

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That is also a possibility.

I like Skinner.

He is refreshingly transactional, and has approached us with good faith and respect. The implications here are that unlike literally every other faction leader we've met, we can establish a productive positive-sum relationship -- that he can be bought, and stay bought.

He will not, for example, stab us if our Planet rating goes too low, or if we make governance choices he doesn't approve of, or if we don't impose some dehumanizing ideological set of values, or don't install enough datajacks in the population - and while they're too big to flip like we flipped the Spartans, they're a lot closer to our values than most.

We would, in that respect, not be the first liberal democracy to issue letters of marque and reprisal, or to employ privateers. While I don't think Svensgaard will go for that -- yet -- I think it's not outside the realm of possibility.

Click to shrink...

In general, I like your philosophizing, too. Take an extra vote.

But be careful. Skinner has told you that Svensgaard expects you to respect the sea. I see that I was not sufficiently clear. Skinner has said that the pirates will attack you if you damage the environment. The Nautilus Pirates are vocally uncomfortable with the expansion of industrial activities like mining and ship repair going on at Warm Welcome.

On land, Captain Svensgaard would not contest any claim, provided you did not disturb "th' rhythms of th'sea." In further conversation, you learned this to mean that Svensgaard was watching the industrialization of Warm Welcome with growing apprehension. Not, Skinner said, because it betokened an increase in your military power, but because you were spreading poison.

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I will be intentional about providing you with a better picture of Skinner moving forward. It is probably fair to say that he is "affably evil" (how I hate that our cultural vocabulary is increasingly documented on TV Tropes!), admitting to all the atrocities referred to by @TaliesinSkye and placing you on warning while making it plain that he won't take it personally if you try to fight back. In his view, going to sea and finding oneself set upon by pirates is playing stupid games to win stupid prizes.

 

[Crazycryodude]

The Gaians getting all pissy at low Planet score is... understandable, you know going in that's their whole gimmick and Skye is a razor-sharp biologist and ecologist with 7 PhD's who might actually know what she's talking about, especially given that ecological collapse was undeniably a major factor leading to Earth's demise even if we don't agree that it was the primary overriding one. A bunch of slaving murderers LARPing as a different historical band of rapist murderers talking shit out of some half-baked Moby Dick philosophizing though? Fuck 'em.

 

[Trenacker]

The Gaians getting all pissy at low Planet score is... understandable, you know going in that's their whole gimmick and Skye is a razor-sharp biologist and ecologist with 7 PhD's who might actually know what she's talking about, especially given that ecological collapse was undeniably a major factor leading to Earth's demise even if we don't agree that it was the primary overriding one. A bunch of slaving murderers LARPing as a different historical band of rapist murderers talking shit out of some half-baked Moby Dick philosophizing though? Fuck 'em.

Click to shrink...

While I fully understand discounting the interests of pirates, it makes sense when one considers that they may depend on the sea to furnish them with food. It implies in particular that they've got fixed bases from which they operate.

 

[Secretariat]

On a diplomatic level, I don't think we can trust the pirates to deal with us honestly. How many of those refugees would disappear on the way? We would never know.

On a utilitarian level, over time we would be feeding an envious monster, helping it grow. And one day when it felt large enough to take what we have, it would turn on us. To help the pirates for near term gain would be shortsighted.

On a domestic level, helping pirates is in direct contravention to our stated beliefs and legal system. The UN does not condone piracy. We could run into serious morale issues as we cause our own people to doubt us as someone with integrity who believes in ideals as they do. It would also prove to the Spartans that they were wrong about Lal being someone of integrity.

Finally, on a moral level aiding them is utterly repugnant. We amplify the harm they do by enabling them. We minimize the harm by killing them all.

Click to shrink...

As a faction, we've made clear distinctions between "people who can be rehabilitated" and who we can work with -- Abaddon, the Spartans -- versus those who cannot -- Martius, Yudikon, the Holnists.

We are, similarly, making a distinction here. Even if Pirate leadership is bad people, is membership in a pirate crew -- a few weeks after Planetfall, when your only option for survival is sticking with the group you landed with -- grounds for instant death?

I do not think that it is, and given Skinner's description, I think it is a worthwhile investment to invest in relationships with Pirate crews, so that we can replace their captains and integrate their faction's assets into our own.

Buying slaves just means the slavers now have a guaranteed profit and should go out and take twice as many hoping to sucker you into buying/"ransoming"/"granting asylum"/etc. that batch too. If you want to stop a slaver you shoot them, you don't pay them.

Click to shrink...

With the update, we have a bit more clarity into Skinner's character.

To be clear, I think that if things progress as you describe, that would be a good thing -- we have a moral duty to grant that asylum, we weaken other factions, and when it comes time to shoot the slavers, they are reliant on us for war stores, which we can cut off -- at that point in our development, we can field many more crews and many more ships than they can, and they cannot replace their losses.

 

[Crazycryodude]

I hope we can all agree that at minimum any pirate who speaks in Yarghs and Aye Mateys and such definitely deserves to be shot, there's no excuse for that unless they fell through a time portal from the late 17th century.

 

[Secretariat]

I hope we can all agree that at minimum any pirate who speaks in Yarghs and Aye Mateys and such definitely deserves to be shot, there's no excuse for that unless they fell through a time portal from the late 17th century.

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I am prepared to excuse any Pirates of the Caribbean fanboy so long as they acknowledge the correct number of films that were made.

 

[TaliesinSkye]

I am prepared to excuse any Pirates of the Caribbean fanboy so long as they acknowledge the correct number of films that were made.

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There was more than one? XD

 

[Nevill]

Spoiler: typos

A few of travelers were worse for ware, but nothing you or Dr. Singh were losing sleep over.

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"wear"

Sun Shao continues to supposed that you could build common housing with minimal effort, which is true, but the lack of demand and inevitable reduction of access to natural light have stopped you from going any further.

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"suppose"?

After catching wind of complaints about their eating habits

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I never understood that particular complaint fully. It's true, people under rationing are wary of strangers who would take more than they do, but a crew of... how many people were there with Metrion in the first group, a dozen? would not make a dent in the stocks intended to feed half a thousand people.

Whatever you say about the Tomorrow Institute, their eating habits are far from the most suspicious/unpleasant thing about them.

I like Skinner.

He is refreshingly transactional, and has approached us with good faith and respect. The implications here are that unlike literally every other faction leader we've met, we can establish a productive positive-sum relationship -- that he can be bought, and stay bought.

Click to shrink...

While I can't say I like people telling me I can't go out into the sea without risking being boarded, captured or sunk, I also recognize that we don't have anywhere near the strength to contest them on the seas, and as such will have to parley unless we want to be blockaded and occasionally raided. We will likely have to rely on sea trade inasmuch as it is possible at all.

Unless we contact Contre-Amirale and deal with them instead. But they are (supposedly) far, and the Pirates are close by. Still, there might be merit in the trade:
[ ] Ask if Skinner will sell you Contre-Amirale St. Germaine's faction comlink.

I am also debating whether we should let him know U.N. Relief Station's loyalties. Yudikon doesn't have enough militiamen; we have four squads worth plus artillery. Were we to make a move on the Pirates, it is likely they would retaliate against the least well-defended settlement. Do we want to kill two birds with one stone?

[x] Try to determine what Skinner knows, if anything, about the disappearances of your people.

 

[Trenacker]

I never understood that particular complaint fully. It's true, people under rationing are wary of strangers who would take more than they do, but a crew of... how many people were there in the first group, a dozen? would not make a dent in the stocks intended to feed half a thousand people.

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It wasn't the amount, but their manners. It was judged unseemly for them to eat without consideration that you, too, were survivors with a potentially limited supply of consumables. It marked them as selfish.

Whatever you say about Tomorrow Institute, their eating habits are far from the most suspicious/unpleasant thing about them.

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Very true, but it struck a nerve with some of the readers, which is why I brought it up again.

 

[Nevill]

Also, is it the Tomorrow Initiative, or the Tomorrow Institute? I've seen both instances mentioned in updates.

 

[Trenacker]

Also, is it the Tomorrow Initiative, or the Tomorrow Institute? I've seen both instances mentioned in updates.

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It should be the Tomorrow Institute, sorry. Thanks for catching that.

 

[Traveller76]

I think it is better to hire the privateers for intelligence and resources and hope the other factions grind them down over time.

 

[MaHuD]

In currenr day, western society finds it quite fine to negotiate with people that are breaking the UN charter, if it can save lives. (Even if doing so could put others at risk in the future)

 

[TaliesinSkye]

In currenr day, western society finds it quite fine to negotiate with people that are breaking the UN charter, if it can save lives. (Even if doing so could put others at risk in the future)

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They might negotiate with hostage takers to get the hostages out, but they won't go into business with them. It's a big difference.

 

[MacroDaemon]

Seeing as how we're the UN Peacekeepers, piracy and slavery should be anathema to both our faction and faction leader.

On that note, though, given the survivalist situation we are in, it might make sense to let things go for now, while proposing the concept to our people that we will eradicate these horrid people and their practices when we are in a position to do so.

By this, I mean that we don't actually accept their activities or work with them, just avoid sparking conflict with them until we're ready. Utilizing slavers and pirates would undermine our focus on the rule of law.

Pravin Lal also seems to have an idealistic approach to the UN and it's function anyway, so I feel it would be a bit strange for him to go so far as to actually encourage piracy for his own factions benefit by working with active pirates.

 

[Crazycryodude]

Yeah the UN of all the factions is the most inherently opposed to working with slavers and if we went into active business with them, well, I'd certainly expect it to Cause Problems. Like, Deirdre trying to run Free Market or Yang trying to run Democracy level Problems. We don't need to declare war on them right now while they've got our island surrounded and we're barely surviving, but working with them is completely out of the question, and "someday we'll get those bastards" should always be in the back of our mind.

 

[TaliesinSkye]

We don't really know how many vessels or fighting men they have available to them; I suspect it's possible we're looking at the sum total of their military strength right now, but that might not be true. If we interrogate Skinner we could potentially find out.

And of course if we seize their ship that's one less ship they'll have.

 

[Secretariat]

We don't really know how many vessels or fighting men they have available to them; I suspect it's possible we're looking at the sum total of their military strength right now, but that might not be true. If we interrogate Skinner we could potentially find out.

And of course if we seize their ship that's one less ship they'll have.

Click to shrink...

One Foil is not going to make a huge difference at this point - we gave much more than that to Yudikon.