You lost me - I've no idea what this bit was supposed to be about.
Was he isekaied to somewhere else before Naruto or... no clue.
Shoganai - An Ignoramus SI in Naruto
- Thread starter industrious
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- naruto self insert
Was he isekaied to somewhere else before Naruto or... no clue.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
It is not a difference in philosophy, but in power and breadth of skill.
Kuranai's point is not that a Genjutsu Master should not be able to trick their opponent or that having subtle techniques is bad.
Her point is that to be considered a Master they need to be skilled enough to control all of their opponent's senses at once and powerful enough that the question of fooling them is irrelevant.
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Honestly I kinda get what Kurenai is getting at here. Nobunaga's genjutsu are incredibly useful, and work amazingly on a practical level for his specific fighting style+mentality. However, they do fall under one specific niche/pattern. And here earning "special" jounin means they want breadth instead of just depth. AKA the opposite of modern PhDs 
Aeoniam
Tauren Historian
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Also, sexy woman said me bad. Thus, kawabunga it is.
Is she really a master herself? sounds to me she argued about the philosophy behind the creation and use of genjutsu techniques instead of giving guidance toward a path of greater mastery. She basically did the taijutsu equivalent of saying the gentle fist is the only taijutsu style that proves mastery the strong fist style is wrong and you'll never be a taijutsu master if you use it.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Except a Gentle Fist user presumably still knows how to make a fist and throw a punch.
Nobunaga failed to show mastery of Genjutsu.
To quote myself on the other site...
All of his genjutsu techniques that we know of only subvert or attack one or maybe two senses. And in minor ways.
Remember when Naruto (if memory serves) revealed that to ninja with normal eyes the flash bang technique is only annoying?
His fighting style is to layer minor debuffs while keeping just enough pressure with taijutsu that his opponent has to choose between dispelling the technique(s) or taking a hit.
"Pocket sand" followed by a kick in the balls does not a taijutsu (or genjutsu) master make.
That's fair but i always assumed nobunaga knew the basics kinda implied when he keeps coming up with new genjutsu techniques instead of using already established ones and he needs to know his stuff in genjutsu to actually create techniques so yeah that mastery was implied with him pumping new techniques.
And yeah when i think about it what kurenai was looking for is confirmation that he isn't limited in his arsenal and only doing the techniques he does because he only has mastery of some limited areas in genjutsu. But while reading the whole convo i ended up interpreting it the way i did because instead of it reading as ok your techniques are good but i need to make sure you know how to do it all and you're not a one trick pony the whole thing sounded like she's debating him over his style of using genjutsu.
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I think her definition of Genjutsu is too restrictive but her heart seemed to be in the right place. She considered 'her Genjutsu' the effective weaponized form and didn't want to approve a kid for more dangerous missions if he couldn't at least impress her with his combat effective skill. In context that's understandable.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Upon a reread, the two important paragraphs regarding Kurenai's critics of Nobunaga are as follows.
The problem is that Kurenai went for a demonstration to open her explanation and then Nobunaga... well, Nobunaga is pretty dismissive of genjutsu in general during the ensuing (one-sided) argument.
Claiming Genjutsu is useless when not limited to supplementing other skills is an odd hill to choose when trying out as a Genjutsu Specialist
Part of the problem is that within the context of the canon show, Kurenai's style just doesn't work very well. The people saying genjutsu without a bloodline behind it falls off hard as ninjas move towards the Shonen Anime Fireball stage aren't wrong, that's how it is canonically, but that doesn't have to be true here necessarily.
Kurenai is making valid points from her viewpoint, it's down to how the narrative treats high end Genjutsu whether she's wise or an idiot.
Kurenai is making valid points from her viewpoint, it's down to how the narrative treats high end Genjutsu whether she's wise or an idiot.
Kurenai's core argument isn't that what Nobu has created is unimpressive or useful its that to be considered a Genjutsu master you need to be able to do everything with Genjutsu that Genjutsu can be used for. Nobu doesn't like that someone skilled in the field of his choice doesn't see the 'genius' of his approach (completely missing her actual argument) and honestly he's acting pretty not rational about it, which given his response to being told that what he's shown isn't Master of Genjutsu grade is a literal quote from Revenge of the Sith Anakin throwing a tantrum is clearly intentional.
@industrious @FurikoMaru have shown some truly impressive writing in this chapter but I also believe a fair number of readers have kind of missed the point?
Nobu is confronted by a sincere and honest critique from someone older and more experienced than him in his chosen field, he doesn't take the point as intended or ask for advice from Kurenai on how to expand his skills so they can meet Master status as a Genjutsu spec Jonin defines it, instead he rejects the premise that anyone could know better than him, shuts down - refuses to listen to coherent arguments that moment Hashirama is name dropped because of his baggage towards being a Senju is very much unresolved and then proceeds to self destructively work himself into the ground in a way Lee calls out as being fundamentally against the ideals Nobu himself preached to create a technique shaped and defined by serious trauma that lastingly hurts himself to use when he fundamentally did not need to do that.
Kurenai bears him no animosity, but Nobu takes the whole thing so personally. The technique he creates is innovative and impressive but his choice to essentially yank the worst memories of his own death to the surface and throw it at someone is just...... its hurting himself for no reason, it's done for all the wrong reasons.
It's honestly kind of fascinating how so many Self insert stories make there MC this can do no wrong 'rational' uber genius who is smarter and better than everyone around them and then this story kind of turns the concept on it's head. Nobu has a lot of the out of the box ideas, he's smart and skilled for his age but he's also a explosive mix of issues. He fundamentally hates that being a Senju clashes with the self image of himself as a self made ninja and falls to pieces railing against it, he gets plain spiteful whenever he is reminded that he still has a ways to go and so on.
Very enjoyable chapter. I am glad this story is updating once more, it's always a treat to read.
@industrious @FurikoMaru have shown some truly impressive writing in this chapter but I also believe a fair number of readers have kind of missed the point?
Nobu is confronted by a sincere and honest critique from someone older and more experienced than him in his chosen field, he doesn't take the point as intended or ask for advice from Kurenai on how to expand his skills so they can meet Master status as a Genjutsu spec Jonin defines it, instead he rejects the premise that anyone could know better than him, shuts down - refuses to listen to coherent arguments that moment Hashirama is name dropped because of his baggage towards being a Senju is very much unresolved and then proceeds to self destructively work himself into the ground in a way Lee calls out as being fundamentally against the ideals Nobu himself preached to create a technique shaped and defined by serious trauma that lastingly hurts himself to use when he fundamentally did not need to do that.
Kurenai bears him no animosity, but Nobu takes the whole thing so personally. The technique he creates is innovative and impressive but his choice to essentially yank the worst memories of his own death to the surface and throw it at someone is just...... its hurting himself for no reason, it's done for all the wrong reasons.
It's honestly kind of fascinating how so many Self insert stories make there MC this can do no wrong 'rational' uber genius who is smarter and better than everyone around them and then this story kind of turns the concept on it's head. Nobu has a lot of the out of the box ideas, he's smart and skilled for his age but he's also a explosive mix of issues. He fundamentally hates that being a Senju clashes with the self image of himself as a self made ninja and falls to pieces railing against it, he gets plain spiteful whenever he is reminded that he still has a ways to go and so on.
Very enjoyable chapter. I am glad this story is updating once more, it's always a treat to read.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Okay. I am going to try to break down the conversations between Kurenai and Nobunaga.
I do not know why, but Nobunaga is coming into this conversation already confrontational.
She expresses her interest in Nobunaga's Genjutsu skills given his showing against Itachi.
Nobunaga in order: has a minor PTSD episode, dismisses the skills of the man who gave him that PTSD, then convinces himself that Kurenai's compliments are actually a trap.
I think her follow-up question could be better understood as "Why do you limit yourself? Is it a lack of ability? And if not, why in the world are you not showing off more in this exhibition?"
And it is at this place in the conversation I think Nobunaga and Kurenai really start to diverge in their understanding of one another.
Nobunaga hears Kurenai saying "That definition is wrong. Not everyone has illusion-detecting eyes and in the end, either the genjutsu works or it doesn't".
What I think Kurenai is actually saying is 'He thinks that means think small and/or ignorable?' "This is what happens when a potential genjutsu user's training partner can no sell anything below a certain threshold and the instructor doesn't know enough to recognize the problem. Nobunaga, that phrase only means 'don't let them see through the illusion, or kill them fast'".
Kurenai ignores Nobunaga's behavior to explain how when the technique was first created, it met his definition of what makes a Genjutsu should be applied. Namely, that it created "doubt and hesitation in the foe's mind" by raising the possibility that the First Hokage or another unknown Senju with the same terrifying ability may have appeared on the field of battle.
She wanted to show him that big flashy genjutsu can still be convincing or at least convincing enough to sow doubt. And sometimes it's the fact that it is big and flashy that makes it believable.
Instead, Nobunaga focuses on its age and declares it obsolete. He also declares that Genjutsu is reliant on what the victim believes or can believe.
And finally, Nobunaga's techniques are so simple that there is no evidence that Nobunaga is even capable of casting greater and more complete illusions.
If other people's theorizing that Gai spoke with her is true, then it could be assumed that not only does she now know she accidentally poked a trigger with her choice in example Genjutsu, but that he escaped from Itachi's genjutsu through the use of the Eight Gates technique. A Taijutsu techniquee.
Which would explain why she is so confident in his taijutsu. He implicitly revealed it as his primary focus in their last conversation too.
He dismisses it as a matter of philosophy instead of a proof of skill.
Despite all of that he certainly proves he has the skill to pull the victim into a world of his choosing. Note how Nobunaga acts like he's trapped in the illusionary memory as well. And the amount of detail he pulls out.
And he still manages to keep it together enough to remember that he needs to prove he can kill the victim before they break out.
And she's nothing but excited for Nobunaga. Crying out with exclamation points where before she was repeatedly noted as speaking in a measured tone that never changed.
Right off the bat, Kurenai expresses approval of Nobunaga and Nobunaga completely ignores the compliment and interprets her Socratic Method teaching as bullying.industrious said:
I do not know why, but Nobunaga is coming into this conversation already confrontational.
Kurenai would have preferred if Nobunaga's answer to "When do you think I slipped a note into your groceries" was more specific than "After I began gathering said groceries or after I began gathering said groceries", but let's it slide.industrious said:
She expresses her interest in Nobunaga's Genjutsu skills given his showing against Itachi.
Nobunaga in order: has a minor PTSD episode, dismisses the skills of the man who gave him that PTSD, then convinces himself that Kurenai's compliments are actually a trap.
Seriously, am I forgetting something? Why is Nobunaga so hostile to Kurenai?
Finally, Kurenai offers to sponsor his promotion to Specail Jonin, with the implicit skill of choice being Genjutsu of course.Nothing much to say here. Kurenai is her usual protective self and Nobunaga is just waiting for her to get on with things.industrious said:
Nobunaga runs through his repertoire of Genjutsu. Doing them all back-to-back is tiring, but he is very proud of how skillfully he performed each one. Presumably, Nobunaga also explained how he uses each technique in battle given Kurenai's description of the testing process.industrious said:
As we will see, Kurenai is trying to find a way to diplomatically provide constructive criticism. And she does acknowledge Nobunaga's skill and practice with what he has shown. But, he came into this interview believing that it would just be a formality. And he exhibits impatience and stung pride.industrious said:
Kurenai describes Nobunaga's techniques as "small" and "limited". Given what we know of these techniques, I think she is saying they do not effect a lot and what they do effect, they do not effect much. For example, Censor Bar only effects sight and it only throws up a black bar, instead of say, blacking out everything the victim sees.industrious said:
I think her follow-up question could be better understood as "Why do you limit yourself? Is it a lack of ability? And if not, why in the world are you not showing off more in this exhibition?"
Nobunaga immediately replies with a definition of what a Genjutsu specialist should strive for. Kurenai appears to express doubt, but she doesn't directly contradict Nobunaga.industrious said:
And it is at this place in the conversation I think Nobunaga and Kurenai really start to diverge in their understanding of one another.
Nobunaga hears Kurenai saying "That definition is wrong. Not everyone has illusion-detecting eyes and in the end, either the genjutsu works or it doesn't".
What I think Kurenai is actually saying is 'He thinks that means think small and/or ignorable?' "This is what happens when a potential genjutsu user's training partner can no sell anything below a certain threshold and the instructor doesn't know enough to recognize the problem. Nobunaga, that phrase only means 'don't let them see through the illusion, or kill them fast'".
Nobunaga counters with a new definition of how to use Genjutsu and Kurenai, realizing he's not getting it, decides to use a practical example. One that, we will see, meets his new definition as well.industrious said:
Nobunaga interrupts Kurenai's explanation with derision. Notably, he thinks the jutsu is completely useless despite the fact it did keep him from breaking out of it by traditional means.industrious said:
Kurenai ignores Nobunaga's behavior to explain how when the technique was first created, it met his definition of what makes a Genjutsu should be applied. Namely, that it created "doubt and hesitation in the foe's mind" by raising the possibility that the First Hokage or another unknown Senju with the same terrifying ability may have appeared on the field of battle.
Nobunaga reacts extremely poorly to the mention of the Senju. And proceeds to completely miss the point Kurenai was trying to make.industrious said:
She wanted to show him that big flashy genjutsu can still be convincing or at least convincing enough to sow doubt. And sometimes it's the fact that it is big and flashy that makes it believable.
Instead, Nobunaga focuses on its age and declares it obsolete. He also declares that Genjutsu is reliant on what the victim believes or can believe.
Kurenai, who has notably still not acknowledged Nobunaga's behavior, gets down to brass tacks. Genjutsu does not need to fool an opponent when it can force them into a new reality anyway. It does not matter if the Genjutsu is believable so long as the victim dies before they can break out. ("Detection and dispelling is irrelevant" to use Nobunaga's words). Shock and awe can help with this.industrious said:
And finally, Nobunaga's techniques are so simple that there is no evidence that Nobunaga is even capable of casting greater and more complete illusions.
Nobunaga claims that his techniques are enough to successfully supplement his taijutsu, but Kurenai only points out that she was testing him for a Genjutsu specialty. And "can supplement his taijutsu" is not enough to make the grade.industrious said:
Two weeks later Kurenai is apologetic. She obviously took Nobunaga's showing last time as vindictive of the limitations of his skills.industrious said:
If other people's theorizing that Gai spoke with her is true, then it could be assumed that not only does she now know she accidentally poked a trigger with her choice in example Genjutsu, but that he escaped from Itachi's genjutsu through the use of the Eight Gates technique. A Taijutsu techniquee.
Which would explain why she is so confident in his taijutsu. He implicitly revealed it as his primary focus in their last conversation too.
Nobunaga's other issues come up here. Where he thinks he isn't good enough at Taijutsu just because Lee and Neji are better. In all honesty, I think he would have a fair shot, especially with his Genjutsu repertoire rounding his style out. After-all, it's not like anyone would expect a Hyuuga taijutsu specialist to forgo the Byakugan to prove their skill.industrious said:
Kurenai is either politely covering up the fact she thinks Nobunaga just lacks the ability or she's being honest and will presumably explain away Nobunaga's rapid development of the new technique as something he has had on the back-burner for a while.industrious said:
Nobunaga successfully captures Kurenai in the Genjutsu.industrious said:
There is a lot to unpack in this section. First off, Nobunaga continues to (willfully?) misinterpret the assignment.industrious said:
He dismisses it as a matter of philosophy instead of a proof of skill.
Despite all of that he certainly proves he has the skill to pull the victim into a world of his choosing. Note how Nobunaga acts like he's trapped in the illusionary memory as well. And the amount of detail he pulls out.
This is very interesting as it continues the idea that Nobunaga is being just as impacted by his Genjutsu as Kurenai is. They're both sweating. The implied disorientation and amnesia of the Skyrim opening is resulting in Nobunaga's own memories getting blurry.industrious said:
And he still manages to keep it together enough to remember that he needs to prove he can kill the victim before they break out.
Finally, the Genjutsu ends as Kurenai explicitly breaks it.industrious said:
And she's nothing but excited for Nobunaga. Crying out with exclamation points where before she was repeatedly noted as speaking in a measured tone that never changed.
Impressive Analysis. Loved your step by step showing how Nobunaga was running on stung pride and being kind of extremely biased.
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Ohhh shit and Nobu has the rep of "dude who likes asking questions," so even this is likely her trying to connect with Nobu on his level
Prince Charon
Just zis guy, you know?
I suspect that these are all related. Nobunaga is still pretty traumatised about his relationship with Tsunade, and the conversation with Gai and Shizune would have added to that (especially with Gai taking Shizune's side), and potentially made him much less trusting of older shinobi in general (not for any rational reason, but trauma is often irrational). For the second one, if Kurenai had used a similar genjutsu that had no connection to the Senju, or at least hadn't mentioned them, I think Nobunaga would have had a better chance of getting her point, or at least wouldn't have missed it as badly. She just didn't understand enough of what's going on with him to realise that.
Gai's 'give Shizune a chance or ELSE I DESTROY YOUR SUPPORT NETWORK' gambit deserves some traumatic acknowledgement. That would rightly be terrifying and not the sort of thing you forget right away even if Gai took it back right away. The fact that his entire social network are going to be treating him completely differently and knowing everyone has to answer to Tsunade in general is bad enough but having his parental figure showcase that so harshly is probably the worst example.
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I don't see neither being wrong. The clear answer is that both schools are perfectly valid, you can use a small, almost imperceptible genjutsu to camouflage another attack, and you can also use brute force when needed.
In fact, I would think that to be considered a true master of genjutsu you should be really good at both. Always IMVHO, of course.
In fact, I would think that to be considered a true master of genjutsu you should be really good at both. Always IMVHO, of course.
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Repeating myself, but agreed. Yes Nobu has a point when talking about the weaknesses of big flashy OHKO moves. Yes he can be (points to his entire career so far) an incredibly effective shinobo on both a "One on one fistfighting" and "larger tactical scale" level with his philosophy without even needing to touch the larger stuff. However, it is still hyperfocusing on one specific aspect of genjutsu versus actually having master over all of it.
PhDs spending a decade looking at one specific gene and how it affect one specific protein interaction during the development of one specific type of breast cancer (your advisor slaps you if you try to branch out to breast cancers as a whole, or look at other stuff this protein does for that one specific cancer strain) vs Professional Engineers where even the specialized qualification test will throw in Electrical Engineering and Water Pressure shit for the non EE and CE test takers.
Prince Charon
Just zis guy, you know?
You're probably correct, but Kurenai would probably not agree with you, and it's plausible that whomever taught her genjutsu would not, either (though you'd have to ask the author to find out). People with fixed ideas and the authority to back them up can be quite aggravating.
Not in Person
Once Known as The Nobody
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These people are being too real. Where's the non-stop elemental super-facepunching? It's generously interspersed with non-stop emotional and psychological self-harm born from deep and unadressed mental issues. I get enough of that from people around me, thankyouverymuch.
I'd like to gasp in realization - is that why the chapter is called "Born in the USA"?
He's being hostile to everybody with screentime in the latest chapter, as far as I can tell.
Fellow Human
Verified Roado Rolla
New here, I like that SI is not some cheating genius who achieved kage level power by 13.
Reincarnating/transmigrating doesn't make one into unfeeling and relentless training machine.
On one hand, you have the MC who knows a real ninja is silent and all that, on the other hand he's still dragged into flashy anime fights.
The dagger is a good idea, 99,9% authors still use damn kunais by default. A gardening tool, improv weapon for original peasant ninjas. I admit with their higher strength and paper tags, it's a good projectile, but utterly unrealistic to use it in melee, especially against bigass swords.
"Insert name" no Jutsu everytime is cringe, might've been amusing the first time...
Basically you shouldn't mix English and Japanese. Tehniques also sound better and less cringe in an unfamilliar language.
English names aren't bad but they aren't cool as Katon: Gouka Mekkyaku
(hint hint notice the missing "no jutsu")
Sometimes there is inchorent thought vomit, I think thoughts shouldn't be directly written down, but formated so readers know exactly who is thinking and talking.
You've done the MC dirty with forced selective denseness trope. Not wanting to socialize with kids does not excuse not seeing blatant crushes like from Ino.
Good that he wrote down his memories, coz other SI's pull lyrics out of their asses 50 years after being isekaid.
I'll rather take a competent and rational SI, even if it's not realistic. If it's written well, they'll still have some setbacks, oversights, moral dilemmas and dealing with other people's problems.
Don't think that having a competent character without bs angst means they're a cold fish. Ditzy female SI but competent when matters is a popular style now.
Ironically, the one time Kurenai is right in fanon or canon, MC is being a little shit.
I don't get why MC dissed her genjutsu even before he learned it worked with the Senju fear.
A genjutsu most ninja can't release themselves from? That's pretty damn useful, so what if they realize they're in a genjutsu.
I wonder if MC will swallow his pride and take advantage of his Senju privileges. He does know Naruto and other people's lives are at stake, also the world. coz there's always a world ending threat in shonen.
He should get those "forbidden" scrolls from the Hokage tower. While Shadow Clone isn't as useful for him as for Naruto, he should still be able to use about 10 clones max currently, meaning effectively ~3 clones in combat or for scouting and relaying information.
Shadow Shuriken is useful too, and I'm sure there are some other tehniques that Naruto overlooked or didn't get the chance to learn, but you'd have to make them up.
Reincarnating/transmigrating doesn't make one into unfeeling and relentless training machine.
On one hand, you have the MC who knows a real ninja is silent and all that, on the other hand he's still dragged into flashy anime fights.
The dagger is a good idea, 99,9% authors still use damn kunais by default. A gardening tool, improv weapon for original peasant ninjas. I admit with their higher strength and paper tags, it's a good projectile, but utterly unrealistic to use it in melee, especially against bigass swords.
"Insert name" no Jutsu everytime is cringe, might've been amusing the first time...
Basically you shouldn't mix English and Japanese. Tehniques also sound better and less cringe in an unfamilliar language.
English names aren't bad but they aren't cool as Katon: Gouka Mekkyaku
(hint hint notice the missing "no jutsu")
Sometimes there is inchorent thought vomit, I think thoughts shouldn't be directly written down, but formated so readers know exactly who is thinking and talking.
You've done the MC dirty with forced selective denseness trope. Not wanting to socialize with kids does not excuse not seeing blatant crushes like from Ino.
Good that he wrote down his memories, coz other SI's pull lyrics out of their asses 50 years after being isekaid.
On the other hand teenage drama...
I'll rather take a competent and rational SI, even if it's not realistic. If it's written well, they'll still have some setbacks, oversights, moral dilemmas and dealing with other people's problems.
Don't think that having a competent character without bs angst means they're a cold fish. Ditzy female SI but competent when matters is a popular style now.
Ironically, the one time Kurenai is right in fanon or canon, MC is being a little shit.
I don't get why MC dissed her genjutsu even before he learned it worked with the Senju fear.
A genjutsu most ninja can't release themselves from? That's pretty damn useful, so what if they realize they're in a genjutsu.
I wonder if MC will swallow his pride and take advantage of his Senju privileges. He does know Naruto and other people's lives are at stake, also the world. coz there's always a world ending threat in shonen.
He should get those "forbidden" scrolls from the Hokage tower. While Shadow Clone isn't as useful for him as for Naruto, he should still be able to use about 10 clones max currently, meaning effectively ~3 clones in combat or for scouting and relaying information.
Shadow Shuriken is useful too, and I'm sure there are some other tehniques that Naruto overlooked or didn't get the chance to learn, but you'd have to make them up.
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Krazyfan1
Worrying for the future.
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i mean, he has the mind of an adult and is running on a kids brain.
going "nah, she can't have a crush on me"isnt that far fetched.
a mix of lingering trauma, pigheadedness where he thinks his way is the best and is refusing to see any evidence otherwise, and because he's in a bad headspace at the moment.
he's built himself up as a genjutsu prodigy, finding out that all he's accomplished is making some neat tricks just made it worse.
Fellow Human
Verified Roado Rolla
I get that, it's believable but annoying. I don't understand why is that the focus of the fic, but not my story... I still like the fic, it just lowers my enjoyment.
Misery porn might be accurate in certain stories, doesn't make it good. Same for angst.
For example, if a character is being tortured, it can be merely implied, no need for gruesome details.
I do think it's far fetched, because he justifies it with him being socially awkward in the new life.
But it's not socially awkward as in not having a clue, but just not wanting to hang out with immature kids.
Even in his old life if some teen had a crush on her teacher or whatever, he'd notice it despite it being uncomfortable. The act of a dense virgin "harem" MC is unrealistic.
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