- Location
- Oregon, USA
Rather than saying X is in the right and X is in the wrong, can't we just agree that no one handled that situation perfectly?
Shoganai - An Ignoramus SI in Naruto
- Thread starter industrious
- Start date
- Fantasy
-
- Tags
- naruto self insert
Rancorious
Continue? Yes or No.
The moral of the story is that professional killers aren't going to be the best at this whole "adolescent trauma management" stuff. Especially 2000's shonen characters.
Also man this fic is awesome.
Also man this fic is awesome.
Oh very much so, I'm enjoying it immensely.
- Location
- Edinburgh
Absolutely no-one handled it perfectly, but you can still discuss who's response was more justified and who is really to blame etc. Like my biggest ire is definitely for Tsunade. She showed at up her sons house whilst drunk to try and talk to him, forced her way into a conversation and then punched him into unconsciousness when he insulted her. That is simply not the same level as being very rude with someone who upset you, so to say, "everyone made mistakes, no-one handled it perfectly" seems both to miss out on what actually happened and is also pretty unfair.
How do we know that? She admits she is A drunk in that scene but doesn't say that she IS drunk. Not is any sign of her drunkenness highlighted as far as I can tell. Or are we assuming she is perpetually drunk?
Magpy
Very Curious
- Location
- Australia, but actually USA (or is it?)
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It says she has recently drunken alcohol here, but that could potentially be Nobunaga smelling something from a while ago and blowing it out of proportion.
I did read back through the last two chapters though, and I haven't seen any reason why people think that Tsunade knocked Nobunaga unconscious.
Yeah. It just reads like he laid there unable and unwilling to move till he passed out. Which seemed to take hours.
Yes sorry, I just re-read and it seems I misremembered that.
Doesn't change the point that Nobu's action are not perfect but still completely reasonable, which can't be said of basically any one of the other people involved in the mess.
Yes I love when there are complex situations to delve into, and it sure delivers that !
- Location
- scrabbling
there is that whole part of naruto where multiple people across multiple locations across multiple generations stuck weapons of mass destruction inside other people (including newborns).
it's kind of a key part of the setting that the safety of the village depends on very questionable decisionmaking
- Location
- UK
Let's not forget the Hokage when parcelling out the blame, since he insisted on Tsunade revealing the relationship on the spot rather than any sort of slower way of handling it.
Yes, granted he hasn't long to go (Neji's comment on his chakra level) and perhaps he wanted to publicly demonstrate continuity of succession in order to help Tsunade's position, or maybe he thought that if she didn't do it now then she'd never do it . . . But if we're to judge an action solely by its results, then him pushing Tsunade to reveal the relationship now did not have good results.
In any case, excellent chapters, and excellent story. Thoroughly enjoying.
Yes, granted he hasn't long to go (Neji's comment on his chakra level) and perhaps he wanted to publicly demonstrate continuity of succession in order to help Tsunade's position, or maybe he thought that if she didn't do it now then she'd never do it . . . But if we're to judge an action solely by its results, then him pushing Tsunade to reveal the relationship now did not have good results.
In any case, excellent chapters, and excellent story. Thoroughly enjoying.
Chapter 17 Musings
Crossposting from SB, where the conversation got... tetchy. It's more civil here, but there's some information here that you all might appreciate.
1. Nobody was supposed to come off well
Everyone in that first scene? Traumatized in different ways. Reacting as best (or as badly) as they could, under the circumstances. Shizune and Gai have more developed brain and endocrine system chemistry over Nobunaga; that doesn't mean that they aren't themselves emotional creatures, or products of a specific, non-Western, non-liberal culture.
To a degree, I'm glad people are this spitting mad about it, because it was supposed to be a messy scene.
2. Names Have Power
I, along with the wife, laughed out loud when we discovered what "Kipposhi," the real life Oda Nobunaga's childhood name meant; it was too perfect. We had to use it. With the knowledge of what his name was, all her hopes for her curse to be broken in the next generation, is it still so surprising that she booed when she learned what his new name was: the seeming source of all her woe, come back to haunt her?
Proclaiming Leader.
Jiraiya can be a real ass sometimes.
3. Tsunade's Enemy can be found in a Mirror
Tsunade stopped drinking, stopped gambling, and settled down for 8 months - 7 months of pregnancy and a month when Kipposhi was born. She was working on herself, she was teaching Shizune, she was getting back into medicine (tending an herb garden is getting back into medicine, however slowly).
She relapsed. Because she was alone in a random village with only Shizune for company, because falling is easy and rising is hard, because post-partum depression exists and because in addition to being bundles of joy, babies are bundles of stress and noise and shit and attention.
The scene in The Gambler should feel all the more tragic knowing that Tsunade tried to be his mother.
4. Ha! Historical In-Joke
I'm very glad people like the Ino scene. And that at least one of you caught my homage to the Good Place in it (it is an amazing show, possibly the best TV show of the past decade, I'm not sure).
I don't think anybody has caught the joke inherent to the flowers Ino brought though: Japanese quince blossoms. Which do, indeed, represent perseverance through adversity in flower-language.
1. Nobody was supposed to come off well
Everyone in that first scene? Traumatized in different ways. Reacting as best (or as badly) as they could, under the circumstances. Shizune and Gai have more developed brain and endocrine system chemistry over Nobunaga; that doesn't mean that they aren't themselves emotional creatures, or products of a specific, non-Western, non-liberal culture.
To a degree, I'm glad people are this spitting mad about it, because it was supposed to be a messy scene.
2. Names Have Power
I, along with the wife, laughed out loud when we discovered what "Kipposhi," the real life Oda Nobunaga's childhood name meant; it was too perfect. We had to use it. With the knowledge of what his name was, all her hopes for her curse to be broken in the next generation, is it still so surprising that she booed when she learned what his new name was: the seeming source of all her woe, come back to haunt her?
Proclaiming Leader.
Jiraiya can be a real ass sometimes.
3. Tsunade's Enemy can be found in a Mirror
Tsunade stopped drinking, stopped gambling, and settled down for 8 months - 7 months of pregnancy and a month when Kipposhi was born. She was working on herself, she was teaching Shizune, she was getting back into medicine (tending an herb garden is getting back into medicine, however slowly).
She relapsed. Because she was alone in a random village with only Shizune for company, because falling is easy and rising is hard, because post-partum depression exists and because in addition to being bundles of joy, babies are bundles of stress and noise and shit and attention.
The scene in The Gambler should feel all the more tragic knowing that Tsunade tried to be his mother.
4. Ha! Historical In-Joke
I'm very glad people like the Ino scene. And that at least one of you caught my homage to the Good Place in it (it is an amazing show, possibly the best TV show of the past decade, I'm not sure).
I don't think anybody has caught the joke inherent to the flowers Ino brought though: Japanese quince blossoms. Which do, indeed, represent perseverance through adversity in flower-language.
- Location
- Dallas, TX
Wow. The amount of simping for Shizune and saying Gai was in the right over on SB is fucked up. Guess if you make a site such a damn hugbox that disallows anything but reluctant simpering criticism you get people that cant handle someone being upset and want to beat them down.
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LiamOfOrmonde
67% lewd. Oh my!
- Location
- Florida Sometimes
Personally, I think the SI should've double-downed and been meaner and more spiteful. Grief and anger are that way. If it was me as the SI in that instant, I would've said so many things that everyone would regret.
- Location
- Right behind you.
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Missed it didn't really watch the show much. What was the homage?
outwrangle
Postmaster General
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- She/Her
What's truly tragic is that their world's medical science probably doesn't really grasp that a relapse can be a temporary bump in the road to recovery, rather than a sign that a person is Bad and thus beyond help or healing. The only people who understand psychology are also torturers and serial killers, and while knowing how to break people can be helpful in knowing how to heal them it can never be enough. In her mind, having a relapse is proof that she will never change and she is cursed to be a worthless drunk and burden on everyone around her. Forever.
Their whole world is sick and no one has even realized it because they think that the "sickness" is some kind of magical curse on the soul.
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- Location
- Earth
The bit where Nobunaga says "she could've changed at any time, she just didn't change for me. I wasn't worth it." I think.
You have to give one thing to Tsunade that when she broke she never deliberately lashed out at others, at least not in a major way. When the Akatsuki or Orochimaru gave up on life they immediately turned around and started hacking innocent people up for parts or spare cash or worse. Tsunade is a fuckup but by the standards of an S-rank ninja that's some proof of character, she broke but she was never a cruel woman who actually enjoyed hurting people she just couldn't stop hurting herself and, a lot of the time, that hurt the people around her.
Nobu doesn't have to forgive her but put in context she's still 'just' a failure, as a ninja and a mother, and she could have fallen a lot further than that. I don't think she deserves real hatred for this, just indifference or pity.
Nobu doesn't have to forgive her but put in context she's still 'just' a failure, as a ninja and a mother, and she could have fallen a lot further than that. I don't think she deserves real hatred for this, just indifference or pity.
- Location
- UK
Given that Jiraiya was the one who took baby Nobunaga from Tsunade and Shizune to deliver him to the village, I'm now wondering if Jiraiya knows who Nobunaga is (and has always known), or if he isn't aware of any connection between "Tsunade's baby" and "orphan Nobunaga" (due to the Hokage keeping it secret) and merely took an interest in him out of curiosity and due to his potential.
- Location
- Somewhere and Nowhere in a state of super-position
No, but from Gai and co's perspective, he didn't have to resort to visciousness: as they failed to realize that this was supposed to be a safe-space for him, from their perspective he could've ignored them or ran away due to not being under physical restraint.
That they failed to realize their intrusion is the primary reason why I avoid condemning this action of theirs. I don't condone it of course, but Gai shocked Nobunaga out of a tantrum (induced by Shizune's intrusion or not, that's what that was unfortunately: issues or not, a tantrums a tantrum (as dwarf fortress can attest)) and got him to rest.
Gai did his best as he understood it (Nobunaga was hitting below the belt, so Gai did so as well) and then immediately apologized (more or less) for the pain he caused and supported Nobunaga until he fell asleep.
So while I cannot condone usage of trauma-buttons as a means of control, I will not condemn Gai for doing the best he could.
My problem with Gai's reaction is that he completely ignore any context for Nobu's outburst and end up blaming the victim for being emotional at his harasser, which is pretty fucked up. Especially with how viciously he does it, basically blackmailing Nobu.
At no point does Gai even acknowledge that there might be reasons for Nobu's behaviour, that he might have legitimate grievances with Shizune. Even after his horrible "tough love" routine is done and he is making up with Nobu he still only describe Nobu's actions as "his worst impulse" and "a mistake" and is glazing up Shizune, still no acknowledgement of why Nobu was insulting Shizune.
Two things that make it even worse to me is that one of the main reason he seems to consider that Nobu should have taken Shizune's harassment without reacting is her high social status ("She was my elder at the Academy, and even now - someone in her position should not be mocked so.") and his perfectly timed interruption seems to indicate that he was already here and had been observing for some time, chose not to help Nobu but then blame him when it turns ugly.
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Cue Gai Interlude as he knocks Tsunade, Hiruzen and Jiriaya through at least one wall each, then challenges Kakashi to make each of them attend 100 sessions of therapy while walking on their hands?
This last chapter could still work if Nobu is the one that got off lightly.
This last chapter could still work if Nobu is the one that got off lightly.
This chapter changing some of our views on Gai is one of the thing that made it so interesting so it already does work, but I agree that I would love to see signs of him being pissed at the leadership for the unnecessary mess.
Rancorious
Continue? Yes or No.
Hiruzen: "The fuck was that for, I wasn't even there!"
Gai: "THEN DELEGATE BETTER!"
Hiruzen: "YOU try delegating over the sound of your joints scraping every time you make the slightest movement! Chakra withdrawal sucks, man!"