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Semper Ad Meliora (Code Geass/Britannian Royalty Quest)

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Resonant said:
@Slayer Anderson I will admit to feeling like the plan discussions has become esoteric and convoluted, it really feels like most of the contention comes down to a few hot-button issues that could be resolved more neatly if we had voted for the marriage option separately first before adding on the extra benefits. I think most voters have trouble keeping up with the plan differences, and there's even a few plans that are technically non-viable, such as [X] Plan Land Grab (because it doesn't marry Lihua and doesn't give favors to Charles).

Would you consider implementing a voting round specifically for the marriage? Because that gatekeeps the rest of the rewards - either we have to do some favors for Charles, or pick an administration role for the imperial marriage. So 2/4 rewards depends on that one choice.
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This is actually a great idea @Slayer Anderson something we can vote for something like this:
[ ] The Empress' Hand in Marriage.
-[ ] As First Husband.
-[ ] As Second Husband.
[ ] Her Cousin's Hand in Marriage.
[ ] Don´t marry into the Chinese Royal family (Choose an extra Boon the next phase)

And when this is resolved we can vote for the other boons as a plan...
NoxOfUmbra said:
So we are only voting for those 4 plans now? I'm kinda bummed if so then.
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Not really, this was more of a way of getting extra attention but we can still vote for whatever you want...

It is pretty unlikely that anything else wins though
 
Ando Owen said:
As long as we can get the marriage and not that many additional issues to handle due to that, I will be happy.
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Also there is Approval voting. If you care about getting Marriage, to Lihua first and foremost, whatever the dressing, wouldn't it make sense to vote approval vote for [ ] Plan A Better China?

I don't suppose the renewed voting for Plan Alliance without imperial marriage is enough for some of the people who oppose marrying even younger Meihua instead of Lihua drop there insistence on a second marriage and consider Approval voting for A Better China as well?

Resonant said:
Would you consider implementing a voting round specifically for the marriage? Because that gatekeeps the rest of the rewards - either we have to do some favors for Charles, or pick an administration role for the imperial marriage. So 2/4 rewards depends on that one choice.
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I've suggested as much myself in the months leading up to this vote, but at this point, indulging the voters obstinate preference in regards to a fraction of the vote and lack of willingness to properly assess the other options feels sort of defeatist. Just my opinion.

NoxOfUmbra said:
So we are only voting for those 4 plans now? I'm kinda bummed if so then.
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The closest option beyond these four is over a dozen votes behind despite more than a day of pushing to raise it up.
 
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Like I said, most voters are not keeping up with the walls of text and esoteric plan discussions, they just skim the vote tally and vote for what aligns with their interests, so a lot of the minor details are lost on them. That's how some plans are technically non-viable like [X] Plan Land Grab for example. Because again, the marriage reward gatekeeps 2 out of the 4 reward slots. This is a huge deal as plan voting becomes a lot more complicated from that.
 
Mellowfellow said:
@Slayer Anderson If Lelouch becomes First Husband, how big is the concern that people treat that as a soft takeover by Britannia, especially from a Chinese citizen perspective? Since the next heir of China would be half-Britannian, how big is the concern for backlash against Lelouch or any children with Lihua?
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Significant.

Some might even say very significant.
Resonant said:
@Slayer Anderson I will admit to feeling like the plan discussions has become esoteric and convoluted, it really feels like most of the contention comes down to a few hot-button issues that could be resolved more neatly if we had voted for the marriage option separately first before adding on the extra benefits. I think most voters have trouble keeping up with the plan differences, and there's even a few plans that are technically non-viable, such as [X] Plan Land Grab (because it doesn't marry Lihua and doesn't give favors to Charles).

Would you consider implementing a voting round specifically for the marriage? Because that gatekeeps the rest of the rewards - either we have to do some favors for Charles, or pick an administration role for the imperial marriage. So 2/4 rewards depends on that one choice.
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One the one hand, that's a legitimate structural issue with the vote. On the other, I feel like that should have been raised during the moratorium rather than 3/4s through the voting period.

Finally, I feel like part of this is also an issue of avoiding a complicated and multifaceted vote, which the quest will only be featuring more of going forward. Especially when considering the overwhelming sentiment to get involved in Chinese Federation politics.

So, no. I really don't think that's something I'm going to be willing to entertain.
 
Slayer Anderson said:
One the one hand, that's a legitimate structural issue with the vote. On the other, I feel like that should have been raised during the moratorium rather than 3/4s through the voting period.

Finally, I feel like part of this is also an issue of avoiding a complicated and multifaceted vote, which the quest will only be featuring more of going forward. Especially when considering the overwhelming sentiment to get involved in Chinese Federation politics.

So, no. I really don't think that's something I'm going to be willing to entertain.
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That's a bit of a bummer considering most voters have expressed the general sentiment to determine the marriage option separately. I believe even @Randino Treviani brought it up during the moratorium and you decided on just doing plan voting to simplify the matter, but it's actually turned out more convoluted as a result?

EDIT:
This is one of the most consequential votes for the quest, I don't think people would mind if it's broken down to several stages. 6 hours moratorium for discussion and plan-making does feel a bit short considering we had new plans being made on the fly 24+ hours into the voting period and gaining some traction like [X] Plan: Research and Productivity for A Better China
 
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[X] Plan Alliance without Imperial Marriage
[X] Plan: Research and Productivity for A Better China
 
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Resonant said:
That's a bit of a bummer considering most voters have expressed the general sentiment to determine the marriage option separately. I believe even @Randino Treviani brought it up during the moratorium and you decided on just doing plan voting to simplify the matter, but it's actually turned out more convoluted as a result?

EDIT:
This is one of the most consequential votes for the quest, I don't think people would mind if it's broken down to several stages. 6 hours moratorium for discussion and plan-making does feel a bit short considering we had new plans being made on the fly almost 24 hours into the voting period.
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Let me consider it while I finish up my shift and I'll get back to you.
 
NoxOfUmbra said:
[X] Plan: Research and Productivity for A Better China
-[X] The Empress' Hand in Marriage.
--[X] As Second Husband.
-[X] A Place in Her Administration.
--[X] Stewardship
-[X] The Taklamakan Desert Research Grant & Small Political/Trade Favors (For Charles).
-[X] Psionic Recruitment & Research Foundation on Chinese Soil.
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I have posted this on the page of the temp threadmark for visibility then
 
Slayer Anderson said:
Significant.

Some might even say very significant.
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Yeah this makes me a lot more hesitant about going First Husband now, regardless of the romantic potential between Lelouch and Lihua, at the end of the day it would feel really shitty for their kids to face major discrimination and hardship in their lives.

Voters going for First Husband should really consider just how bad the political optics of siring the next heir of China as half-Britannian looks like.
 
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Slayer Anderson said:
Significant.

Some might even say very significant.
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And the backlash from Europe for building up Chinese Psionics with the treaty going? Would you say that would be the same? Worse? @Slayer Anderson
Resonant said:
That's a bit of a bummer considering most voters have expressed the general sentiment to determine the marriage option separately. I believe even @Randino Treviani brought it up during the moratorium and you decided on just doing plan voting to simplify the matter, but it's actually turned out more convoluted as a result?
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I brought it up, repeatedly over the past several months, but was satisfied with slayers answer, and no one else payed it any heed until now. I have to support slayer here in saying that simplifying things is no good, because Lelouch's other rewards will influence his marriage and the marriage influences his other rewards. There are enough of us who are paying attention to swing the outcome in either way, but are still letting the Marriage be a deciding factor, and being especially picky in there choices.
Wiggy said:
I mean, pissing off Charles is an option. Just because we *shouldn't* doesn't mean we can't lol.
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At this point it's either Kiss Charles boots, Kiss his boots in apology for not securing the marriage, or just get the marriage and a bunch of things we want and he'll still be happy. There is no unhappy Charles with any of the current leading vote options.
Slayer Anderson said:
Let me consider it while I finish up my shift and I'll get back to you.
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I think you made a good point about the voters needing to step up, but whatever you prefer. It is frankly a bit late for someone to bring it back up only as the situation continues to remain close.

I personally think this is simply another case of people who are paying attention being too committed to there preference, rather than taking responsibility for the votes outcome. The vote is close enough that deciding it is as simple as looking at the votes as a whole and deciding without letting marriage factor into the choice more than it should. We shouldn't even need this discussion of restructuring the vote.
 
Resonant said:
Yeah this makes me a lot more hesitant about going First Husband now, regardless of the romantic potential between Lelouch and Lihua, at the end of the day it would feel really shitty for their kids to face major discrimination and hardship in their lives.

Voters going for First Husband should really consider just how bad the political optics of siring the next heir of China as half-Britannian looks like.
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All other plans involve piety admin so it doesn't matter.
 
IBulit said:
All other plans involve piety admin so it doesn't matter.
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What ...? How does the narrative effects on Lelouch's future children not matter? Especially after his IC promise to Euphie to pay attention to his domestic priorities, not just the political calculus?

Randino Treviani said:
I brought it up, repeatedly over the past several months, but was satisfied with slayers answer, and no one else payed it any heed until now. I have to support slayer here in saying that simplifying things is no good, because Lelouch's other rewards will influence his marriage and the marriage influences his other rewards. There are enough of us who are paying attention to swing the outcome in either way, but are still letting the Marriage be a deciding factor, and being especially picky in there choices.
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We're still clarifying major details about the vote options even 30+ hours into the voting period such as the political backlash against First Husband, or the risks of a formal treaty/alliance. The voting cycle of the quest is actually quite rapid with only a 1 hour moratorium usually, hence the thread culture is not primed towards extensive discussion. This is fine for other votes, but for such a consequential decision with close margins coming down to a few issues here - that doesn't feel adequate.
 
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Resonant said:
What ...? How does the narrative effects on Lelouch's future children not matter? Especially after his IC promise to Euphie to pay attention to his domestic priorities, not just the political calculus?
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It's more treaty and Piety, but all of the plans raise political tensions and escalate hostility aimed at lelouch and his retinue. The difference is that the enemy with being first consort emperor is a minority of ultra nationalist chinese figures of importance objecting to half Britannian heirs, while the treaty and Piety in China has us going up against the Praetorians more frequently as they scale up attacks in response to the treaty and we are more prominent on their shit list from distributing psionic teachings and technology in mainland china.

We have more than fulfilled Euphemia's expectations, and Slayer has outright said in a previous post that she will understand if we press for first consort emperor, given whats involved in the position. It is nothing Euphemia isn't willing to allow.
 
IBulit said:
I am pretty sure we are losing our spot in succession regardless of whether we are first or second husband.

Why is Charlie's regard so important to you? Serious question. As things stand, marriage will be viewed favourably by Charles regardless of the desert. On top of that there's nothing saying we can't get into the desert at a later date, while this is a unique opportunity to get shinies we will never otherwise get.
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Since the Code Geass canon was tossed aside with Marianne in good shape, Lelouch and Nunnally in Britannia, and Charles actually paying attention to potentially big threats like the ancient psychic stuff, I don't have much of a reason to dislike him. I like him here in fact. I don't mind doing good work for him.

The Britannian succession is not that much of an issue with Euphemia above us in the list, along with many others, and if the whole thing implodes, we won't really care about being in or out of the succession.
 
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Randino Treviani said:
It's more treaty and Piety, but all of the plans raise political tensions and escalate hostility aimed at lelouch and his retinue. The difference is that the enemy with being first consort emperor is a minority of ultra nationalist chinese figures of importance objecting to half Britannian heirs, while the treaty and Piety in China has us going up against the Praetorians more frequently as they scale up attacks in response to the treaty and we are more prominent on their shit list from distributing psionic teachings and technology in mainland china.

We have more than fulfilled Euphemia's expectations, and Slayer has outright said in a previous post that she will understand if we press for first consort emperor, given whats involved in the position. It is nothing Euphemia isn't willing to allow.
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Where did it say it was just a minority of figures? The quote was asking about a Chinese citizen perspective which implies the general populace at large, especially when you consider the unprecedented nature of a Chinese Empress + Foreign Husband against the orthodox culture, the backlash would be a lot higher than limited covert ops done by the Praetorians. Also, I'm not sure why you think we can use the Research Foundation reward to build it in Australia, when it specifically says "on Chinese soil" so it will have to be built on mainland China anyways.
 
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[X] Plan: Left Hand of the Empress
[X] Plan A Better China

Pretty much just the main thing I'm interested in is the marriage, feels like that was kinda the major goal of this entire endeavour so throwing it away at the very end is just unsatisfying to me.
 
Alexander Sturnn said:
Why are people so obsessed with choosing the in every way objectively inferior Reward despite all our successes? I just don't get it!
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Yeah, if the Plan Alliance without Imperial Marriage was a plan a plan that doesn't marry anyone, but and instead chooses another 4 rewards, I could understand it... Different people has different priorities, and some are not interested in a political marriage, or getting too involved in China.

But why the hell people is rejecting the true Lihua, but are perfectly fine with marrying wish.com Lihua? We get all the headaches of marrying Lihua and much lesser benefits
 
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Resonant said:
What ...? How does the narrative effects on Lelouch's future children not matter? Especially after his IC promise to Euphie to pay attention to his domestic priorities, not just the political calculus?
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One, plans that have us as second husband have piety admin which is a bad choice.

Two, we are so far away from our kids being old enough to matter politically, it's not an argument.

Three, Euphemia cares about being a present dad, not whether or not our children will have challenges ahead of them.

Four, even if we are not the first husband, if Lihua has children from Lelouch, it will mean dynastic troubles, just with our kids starting with.evdn more of a disadvantage.

Ando Owen said:
Since the Code Geass canon was tossed aside with Marianne in good shape, Lelouch and Nunnally in Britannia, and Charles actually paying to potentially big threats like the ancient psychic stuff, I don't have much of a reason to dislike him. I like him here in fact. I don't mind doing good work for him.

The Britannian succession is not that much of an issue with Euphemia above us in the list, along with many others, and if the whole thing implodes, we won't really care about being in or out of the succession.
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Regardless of how likeable he might or might not be, doing chores for him has dubious benefits. Not to mention Charles will be happy with just marriage, desert stuff is just if we don't manage to marry.

That's my point, if we are sacrificing Britannian succession, we should do something for good benefits, which those voting for second husband and piety admin positions ignore utterly. Doubly so those that want to waste rewards on treaty and desert.stuff.

Stewardship position will allow to lure away Guinevere's supporters for Euphemia.
 
Fanhunter696 said:
But why the hell people is rejecting the true Lihua, but are perfectly fine with marrying wish.com Lihua? We get all the headaches of marrying Lihua and much lesser benefits
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Have we had a picture of current Lihua? could be a thing where people are still even if subconsciously picturing canon way younger Lihua which is fairly squicking them out but are ok with the OC since hasn't got any canon preconceptions for her.
 
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