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Rise of the Immortal King [Cultivation, CK2]

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Sir LagsAlot said:
That makes literally zero logical sense we'll want to rush the cultivation actions as soon as possible regardless of our plan so that we always have the safety net of an emergency core formation button if need be, and not taking it denies us the extra power provided by that cultivation session regardless even if you don't want that.
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I think this is the core disconnect between our analyses. I'm absolutely willing to delay this safety net for a few rounds if it gets us a better Core long term. And if we do that, the total completion of even the third core plan is Turn 8 or 9 or so rather than Turn 11 or 12.

Abydon said:
[] Cultivate: Gain +11 Power (110% Cultivation Speed)
--- [] Use Foundation Establishment Spirit Stone Supply for +30% Cultivation Speed (+3 Power)
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Can we double up on this if we have more than one of these (ie: use two of these for a +6)?

Relatedly, does exceeding 100 on Power do anything, or is excess wasted?
 
[X] Plan Birth of a Phoenix
-[X] Town Hall
-[X] Fortifications
-[X] Establish Artifice Hall (Step 1)
-[X] Quest: Improve Affinity by 20%
---[X] Life
-[X] Quest: Improve Affinity by 20%
---[X] Fire
-[X] Quest: Improve Affinity by 20%
---[X] Soul

So, this puts the idea of pursuing three quests into effect with our Personal Actions, pretty straightforward. With our Strategic Actions, it establishes what our people want (which is Diplomacy and thus within our strong suit), gets some forts (which isn't our strong suit, but does seem necessary), and starts working on an artifice hall...it'll only boost economic growth once we have artifice skills ourselves (which'll be a while), but it'll start giving us Treasures as soon as it's done, and allow the purchase of more, which seems worth it on its own (and it's Stewardship, so again something we're good at).
 
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I think this is the core disconnect between our analyses. I'm absolutely willing to delay this safety net for a few rounds if it gets us a better Core long term. And if we do that, the total completion of even the third core plan is Turn 8 or 9 or so rather than Turn 11 or 12.
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The thing is you don't need to you're just introducing inherent risk to your plan for zero gain. You can easily cultivate up to the point where you're capable of breaking through well still working on and eventually finishing three quests they're not mutually incompatible so the refusal to have the safety net well not harming your goals in any way shape or form is beyond baffling.

[X] Plan Cultivation in One
- [X] Fortifications
- [X] Town Hall
- [X] Establish Spy Network
- [X] Cultivate: Gain +11 Power (110% Cultivation Speed)
-- [X] Use Foundation Establishment Spirit Stone Supply for +30% Cultivation Speed (+3 Power)
-- [X] Use Common Grade Pill for +10 to Cultivation Roll for 5% Corruption
- [X] Quest: Improve Affinity by 20%
-- [X] Life
- [X] Quest: Improve Affinity by 20%
-- [X] Fire

This should let us reach the amount of power we need to breakthrough to core formation within a single turn saving us a personal action which lets us start quest three on turn two rather than on the projected turn four meaning we should be able to breakthrough with a tertiary affinity on average.

Beyond, that if we intend to delay our breakthrough for a notable amount of time as we are at present then we're going to need to focus our efforts on defensive measures for the time being to make up for our lacking personal strength that means fortifications to protect against external attacks, a town hall to keep an eye on internal issues, and a spy network to keep a pulse on greater politics outside of our fief so that we're kept aware of if we'll need to use our panic breakthrough button or not.
 
[X] Plan Birth of a Phoenix

As stated earlier will vote for plan including soul affinity development. Even if there are plans i'd prefer on all other aspects.
 
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Sir LagsAlot said:
The thing is you don't need to you're just introducing inherent risk to your plan for zero gain. You can easily cultivate up to the point where you're capable of breaking through well still working on and eventually finishing three quests they're not mutually incompatible so the refusal to have the safety net well not harming your goals in any way shape or form is beyond baffling.
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I'm probably delaying the safety net by maybe a single turn or two. Three if we're unlucky. The idea is to start the things that require more actions and thus complete the whole sequence quicker. Seems viable to me.

Like, I'm not waiting until all three quests are complete to cultivate, I'm waiting until...probably next turn, honestly.
 
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I'm probably delaying the safety net by maybe a single turn. Two if we're unlucky. The idea is to start the things that require more actions and thus complete the whole sequence quicker. Seems viable to me.

Like, I'm not waiting until all three quests are complete to cultivate, I'm waiting until...probably next turn, honestly.
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But you're not doing that, that's the frustrating thing with this conversation you keep saying you're doing something that's not true, I keep explaining to you why what you're saying is false, and then you just restate the wrong thing again like that somehow makes it true. I'm again going to be as explicit as possible here you are not completing the sequence of events in any way shape or form more quickly than you otherwise would you are simply reorganizing the order in which the events happen in such a way that increases risk without increasing reward.
 
Sir LagsAlot said:
But you're not doing that, that's the frustrating thing with this conversation you keep saying you're doing something that's not true, I keep explaining to you why what you're saying is false, and then you just restate the wrong thing again like that somehow makes it true. I'm again going to be as explicit as possible here you are not completing the sequence of events in any way shape or form more quickly than you otherwise would you are simply reorganizing the order in which the events happen in such a way that increases risk without increasing reward.
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I disagree with your analysis. By doing all three of the 5 action activities this turn, we allow for quicker completion of the whole set, at least potentially. By strategically picking which activity to not do on rounds when Cultivation is occurring we can slant the whole sequence to quicker completion pretty readily.

For example, if we get nothing but successes on our Life Quest, we can then choose to replace actions on that quest with cultivation rather than our Fire Quest which is much further from being done. That allows, on average, quicker total completion of all quests. Not fewer actions expended, but fewer turns between now and then.

By doing Cultivation up front, you make that kind of strategic choice as to which actions it replaces impossible and delay completion. On average anyway. Now, it does give us a safety net sooner, so there are certainly advantages to your approach, but mine isn't nonsensical, it has a very real advantage as long as we choose when to cultivate strategically.
 
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goable said:
@Abydon

We can improve multiple affinities at once right?
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Yes. The cap is the number of actions available. (i.e. 3 Personals into 3 Affinities is possible but you can't do a 4th since no action available)

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Can we double up on this if we have more than one of these (ie: use two of these for a +6)?
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No. You are capped at 1 cultivation aid per mechanic. (i.e. 1 Spirit Stone, 1 Pill, 1 Death Cultivation Technique)

Relatedly, does exceeding 100 on Power do anything, or is excess wasted?
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Its not wasted to exceed 100. It just doesn't convey the benefits you'd get from a breakthrough.

(i.e. 105 Power is 105 Power but you are missing a massive amount of modifiers/benefits from Core Formation)
 
Sir LagsAlot said:
This should let us reach the amount of power we need to breakthrough to core formation within a single turn saving us a personal action which lets us start quest three on turn two rather than on the projected turn four meaning we should be able to breakthrough with a tertiary affinity on average.
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This is only true if you roll above a standard success (i.e. 80+) on cultivation fyi. A standard success with that is 99 power which isn't quite enough to breakthrough.
 
[X] Plan: Scholar-Knight
- [X] Fortifications
- [X] Town Hall
- [X] Establish Spy Network
- [X] Cultivate: Gain +11 Power (110% Cultivation Speed)
-- [X] Use Foundation Establishment Spirit Stone Supply for +30% Cultivation Speed (+3 Power)
- [X] Quest: Improve Affinity by 20%
-- [X] Life
- [X] Quest: Improve Affinity by 20%
-- [X] Soul

Same as Cultivation In One but with a cooler minor affinity.

edit: approval voting
[X] Plan Birth of a Phoenix (v2)
 
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Arcanestomper said:
What exactly is the benefit of having higher power? Does it increase our success rate on actions?
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It's related to personal combat.

If you are 100 and someone is 200 it's basically unwinnable unless you are hard countering them. (i.e. Fire 100 vs Death 200 drops them 30% or 60pts which makes it 100 vs 140)

If you are 100 and fight someone at 150, they have a 50 pt advantage in personal combat. But with your +45, if they aren't combat trained, is still winnable.

If you are both 100, you just roll personal prowess.
 
Hmmm. Interesting. We want to do that basically every turn going forward then no matter what, which isn't how I was thinking that worked...

I think that means we do want to cultivate every possible turn, including this one, so I'm revising my plan accordingly. It'll delay core completion but if every point of Power translates to just a direct combat bonus that's worth it. I think that also means we absolutely shouldn't use anything that adds Corruption, even if it increases odds of success. If we're doing it every turn and don't want to burn actions purging corruption (which we don't) then the Corruption is rapidly not worth it.

[X] Plan Birth of a Phoenix (v2)
-[X] Town Hall
-[X] Fortifications
-[X] Establish Artifice Hall (Step 1)
-[X] Cultivate: Gain +11 Power (110% Cultivation Speed)
-- [X] Use Foundation Establishment Spirit Stone Supply for +30% Cultivation Speed (+3 Power)
-[X] Quest: Improve Affinity by 20%
---[X] Fire
-[X] Quest: Improve Affinity by 20%
---[X] Soul

I do think we should still commit to completing all three quests though, hence going for both the secondary ones here.

I could probably be convinced to switch to either of the other plans if they dropped the Common Grade Pill for 5% Corruption...we're better off just risking the lower odds of success than accumulating Corruption if we're gonna do it every turn.

EDIT:
[X] Plan: Scholar-Knight
 
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Abydon said:
It's related to personal combat.

If you are 100 and someone is 200 it's basically unwinnable unless you are hard countering them. (i.e. Fire 100 vs Death 200 drops them 30% or 60pts which makes it 100 vs 140)

If you are 100 and fight someone at 150, they have a 50 pt advantage in personal combat. But with your +45, if they aren't combat trained, is still winnable.

If you are both 100, you just roll personal prowess.
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In that case I don't see much reason to cultivate until we are ready to actually breakthrough. If we need to fight personally before we hit core formation we're probably screwed.

Edit: Though I can see the merit of cultivating every turn if we want to stack it as much as possible. So long as we actually follow through on that.

[X] Plan Birth of a Phoenix
[X] Plan Birth of a Phoenix (v2)
 
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Arcanestomper said:
In that case I don't see much reason to cultivate until we are ready to actually breakthrough. If we need to fight personally before we hit core formation we're probably screwed.
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That is only correct if "thing you fight = noble who holds a fief" as they are at a minimum above 100 power somewhere.

There are plenty of other things to fight they are not nobles. Spirit beasts for instance, rogue cultivators hiding out in the wilds. That sort of thing.
 
Yeah, I dunno exactly what the success rate of cultivation is (because I don't know what skill it uses, if any), but if it's 65% like most other stuff, then in, say, 9 turns (with 6 successes), if we commit to cultivating religiously every turn using resources we go from a total of 130 in combat (85 Power +45 Prowess) to a total of 214 (85 Power +45 Prowess +84 more Power from Cultivation). Even without the extra +30 or so from a completed Core, that's a hefty bonus, and likely better than some people who have gained their cores (especially those who have only gained them recently).

Which makes putting off our Core until we can get all three quests squared away even more viable, honestly. We certainly want the Core for a host of reasons, but it's a lot less urgent given that we can get almost as good a combat bonus with two successful Cultivation actions.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Yeah, I dunno exactly what the success rate of cultivation is (because I don't know what skill it uses, if any), but if it's 65% like most other stuff
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It is 65% and doesn't really use a skill.

Artifice & Alchemy effects, for instance, scale based on your breakthrough tier not your power.

I'll probably cap you at some point if you try to bypass breakthroughs for too long as well tbh.
 
Abydon said:
It is 65% and doesn't really use a skill.

Artifice & Alchemy effects, for instance, scale based on your breakthrough tier not your power.

I'll probably cap you at some point if you try to bypass breakthroughs for too long as well tbh.
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Totally fair. The plan wasn't to keep doing it forever without creating a core and advancing, just long enough to hit Life Affinity 100, Fire Affinity 20, Soul Affinity 20.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I could probably be convinced to switch to either of the other plans if they dropped the Common Grade Pill for 5% Corruption...we're better off just risking the lower odds of success than accumulating Corruption if we're gonna do it every turn.
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I was planning on doing a purification next turn since we wouldn't need to cultivate as hard after breaking through, but I'm down for that.
 
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