[X] Plan Gaul

We're too young and unconnected to have a good shot at staying alive while Charlie dances the foxtrot in Rome, and I don't think we have the stats to turn the Ninth into a kingmaker under our control. Better to wait for the dust to settle and the blood to stop running into the Tiber first.
 
He knew our father, so that should hopefully give us at least a chance to prove ourselves.
Reading his patron-description again I'm not sure whether he was our fathers "fast friend and loyal ally". Or, if those were characteristics our father attributed him? :confused:

I'd forgotten that. That does change the complexion of things, though I'm not sure if it would overcome the deep HATE between Sertorius and Sulla.

Huh. In retrospect, 'Old Friends' was probably the chance to open the Sertorius social link.
 
[X] Plan Flexible

We have 4 options. Go east under Marius and pray we kill Sulla and don't die. Go east with the ninth and pray we build it up enough to steal it and play kingmaker for Sulla (and don't die). Go to Gaul and pray we learn something without getting killed. Stay in Italy and pray we won't get fucked over by the winner of Sulla vs Marius: The final fight.



I want to make use of our best servant, and raise our combat stats without having to pick a side with Sulla or Marius.
 
A part of me wants to go for Plan Fortuna, it is the kind of awesome gamble that could be very fun to play though, but I think we are still a bit green to be able to create measurable change.
Right now we are largely dependent on how Marius/Sulla deathmatch ends, that is going to define our political fortunes, no two ways around it.
And plan Flexible gives us the best option of negotiating that incognita with reasonable chances of loot and prestige opportunities, while working under one of the great generals of rome and with our father's servant.

Who knows, maybe neither Sulla or Marius will win and will be carrion food... has anyone considered what would happen if they both die in the battlefield? because regardless of who ends up victorious out of that brawl, their deaths would leave a power vacuum...

[X] Plan Flexible
-[X] Legio VI
-[X] Tercerus
-[X] Rufus
 
Who knows, maybe neither Sulla or Marius will win and will be carrion food... has anyone considered what would happen if they both die in the battlefield? because regardless of who ends up victorious out of that brawl, their deaths would leave a power vacuum...
Cough; Or this happens

Question; Lets say Marius wins but after a few years he dies from old age. Who would take his place? His son and Cinna perhaps?

It might actually interesting to have such an open field without Titans like Marius and Sulla.

I mean really Marius is old. like real old by the standarts of the day. We really must think of the future.
 
A part of me wants to go for Plan Fortuna, it is the kind of awesome gamble that could be very fun to play though, but I think we are still a bit green to be able to create measurable change.
Right now we are largely dependent on how Marius/Sulla deathmatch ends, that is going to define our political fortunes, no two ways around it.
And plan Flexible gives us the best option of negotiating that incognita with reasonable chances of loot and prestige opportunities, while working under one of the great generals of rome and with our father's servant.

Who knows, maybe neither Sulla or Marius will win and will be carrion food... has anyone considered what would happen if they both die in the battlefield? because regardless of who ends up victorious out of that brawl, their deaths would leave a power vacuum...

[X] Plan Flexible
-[X] Legio VI
-[X] Tercerus
-[X] Rufus
Good question, my bets would be on Cinna & Young Marius staying in control.
 
Who knows, maybe neither Sulla or Marius will win and will be carrion food... has anyone considered what would happen if they both die in the battlefield? because regardless of who ends up victorious out of that brawl, their deaths would leave a power vacuum...

Well, the heir apparent for the optimates would be Metellus Pius. He was a big enough deal that Sulla basically treated him as second in command after the former joined him in Italy. OTL, he was in Africa around now, but here? If he isn't in Greece, though, I would expect Lucullus to take command of Sulla's army, if only through weight of sheer personal competence.

The Marians I would expect to devolve into a death match between Cinna and Young Marius, with Carbo possibly sticking his oar in too. There's a lot of ambition and pride in the Marians, but not a lot of friendship. Their control of Rome also rests pretty squarely on the magic of Marius' name, too.

The wildcard is Pompey. He'd have three veteran legions in Italy with every other major power in some state of disarray.

Obviously, this all depends on how they both die, and if the Pontic forces are still intact at the time.
 
Isn't Marius in his 70s? He could drop dead just about whenever really. I wouldn't be surprised if he has to beat a roll every turn to just not die.

Lol wouldn't it be funny if Marius beats Sulla, defeats the Greeks, starts marching home only to drop dead and Sulla takes power over the Legions taking him back?
 
Isn't Marius in his 70s? He could drop dead just about whenever really. I wouldn't be surprised if he has to beat a roll every turn to just not die.

Lol wouldn't it be funny if Marius beats Sulla, defeats the Greeks, starts marching home only to drop dead and Sulla takes power over the Legions taking him back?

Sulla isn't being taken alive. Being put on trial in Rome and publicly executed would be orders of magnitude worse than just death to him. He'd fall on his sword. (I can't see Marius trying to take him alive, either.)

It would be absolutely hilarious, though, and entirely in keeping with Sulla's outrageous luck.
 
[X] Plan Gaul

Nothing ventured, nothing gained, I am aware, but the risk of staying in Italia is simply not one I am comfortable taking. If Sulla should triumph, perhaps Scaevola, assuming he survives until then, could intercede on our behalf, but even so, I wonder if associating with Sertorius will incur Scaevola's displeasure, which is not something we would want to do to our patron. Even if not, I am too nervous about potentially incurring Sulla's wrath for associating with Sertorius. If such were to happen, and Sulla returns triumphant, our name will swiftly be put on the proscription list, and if Pompey should be the one to win Sulla's favor, he will be all too happy to slide the knife between our ribs, perhaps literally.
 
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Cough; Or this happens



I mean really Marius is old. like real old by the standarts of the day. We really must think of the future.


True, but that has a solid Marian Victory, and depending how far from the Marian victory over Sulla, the more established they will be. still they mostly orbit Marius and without him, they'd probably fall into another civil war. but in that event, whatever optimate surviving in rome, and in exile, could return and take advantage of that conflict.
But, if both Sulla and Marius die more or less at the same time, it would send both their factions into internal conflicts (multi sided civil war?) I feel that could be messier .

And this is why I like the idea of the Sanmite campaign, we are in no more threat of Pompey's assasins, should they happen, than in Gaul, but we are closer to Rome and under what would be the best general standing...
 
Hmmm.

Ooor that whole Republic thing just disintagrates. I mean taking the wrong lession from a problem is age old tradition. Who says people won't blame the idea of Republic and look to a king for stability?
Because the Romans really did care about their traditions, and "NO KINGS" was just about the strongest of those traditions. They only tolerated an emperor after decades of civil war and instability, and said emperor was pretty careful to observe the outward forms of respect for the institutions of the republic even as he eroded the reality.

It is far more likely that an inept or tyrannical strongman would be dismissed as someone who tried to become a king and reinforce the "NO KINGS" tradition. The catch, of course, is the danger that the tyrannical strongman would be deposed by a more competent strongman, whose rule would then be fairly secure.

The big problem Rome faces is a cultural one. It trains and incentivises its elite to be ruthless and ubercompetitive bastards, just for the chance to enjoy a brief taste of supreme power. And then it takes that taste away, so that the next bastard in line can have a drink. And that was fine, when those bastards had no recourse but to pass the cup along.

But now the wine is stronger and sweeter, and it has been shown to them that they have another option - naked force. That wasn't available when Roman armies were comprised of propertied men with a stake in the Republic and its institutions. Now though, those armies are comprised of poor, desperate men with a stake in their generals' success and futures. (And you can't close that door now. The Republic has too many commitments in too many places.)

At this point, saving the Republic involves destroying its driving force: the energy and ambition of its aristocracy.
That, or somehow making the jump to the institutions of a modern nation-state (e.g. a standing army NOT paid by the aristocrats, and a government that can levy enough taxes on the aristocracy to fund that army).

I can't decide which is harder.

Plan Fortune's Favourite would be good if not for our current stats. We have the aptitude of a skilled tribune not a legate. Not to mention that we can't manage a wine stand, how're we meant to run a Legion? There's more to it than fighting, logistics is paramount. Keeping our men well fed and paid is key for loyalty. Something I'm fairly confident we wouldn't be able to achieve as we are.
Rufus might be solid on that front; I didn't get a good sense for whether his stewardship is good, bad, or unremarkable. That said, you're not wrong to point out that we might struggle to manage the finances and logistics of a legion if we attempt to usurp command of the Ninth.

The major draw is Tercerus though, the man although nearing the end of his lifetime is well experienced. As a former centurion he knows the intricacies of the Legions, something we can use to better our command. It seems a waste not to use him, considering if left he'd likely die regardless. He's the ablest diplomat, warrior and leader on our staff. Something we should make use of while we're still able.
That... is a fair point.

On a different note, I'm going to momentarily indulge my salt. This is exactly why I wanted to take another year. We neither want nor know how to leverage our position for further gain, so we're expending a great deal of effort to stand still. If we are essentially going to hang around doing nothing of note, we would have been much better off spending it learning with Scaevola and making friends in Rome.

There. Salt indulged. Moving on.
Out of curiosity... how would we be assured of the situation being better in a year?

I'd forgotten that. That does change the complexion of things, though I'm not sure if it would overcome the deep HATE between Sertorius and Sulla.

Huh. In retrospect, 'Old Friends' was probably the chance to open the Sertorius social link.
I don't think we're so obviously a Sulla advocate or supporter that Sertorius's personal hatred of the man would trigger, especially since Telamon didn't say a word about it. The "Us -> Scaevola -> Sulla" connection is a bit tenuous, especially since it sounds like Sertorius' hatred was personal, not political. Just because he personally hates Sulla wouldn't mean he personally hates all Sulla's friends and all the clients of their friends.
 
Out of curiosity... how would we be assured of the situation being better in a year?

I don't think we're so obviously a Sulla advocate or supporter that Sertorius's personal hatred of the man would trigger, especially since Telamon didn't say a word about it. The "Us -> Scaevola -> Sulla" connection is a bit tenuous, especially since it sounds like Sertorius' hatred was personal, not political. Just because he personally hates Sulla wouldn't mean he personally hates all Sulla's friends and all the clients of their friends.

We wouldn't be assured that the situation would be better, but we would have a much better idea of how things stand, while now they're kind of up in the air. And it's not that I think Sertorius would hate us, just that he's probably not going to open up and teach us everything he knows. At the time I said that I'd forgotten that Sertorius was a friend of our father's, too, so... shrug.

Also, I've snipped it out of the quote, but the Senate developing its infrastructure and paying the wages of the legions wouldn't be enough in and of itself. They'd still be getting as much if not more from their generals through booty and the proceeds of selling captives into slavery. There's also the issue that their generals are going to be their main hope of settling on good land, at least without a massive cultural change in the Senate. Senators hate land bills. They much prefer making latifundia out of captured lands. But yeah, saving the Republic in the long term is probably beyond us. But we might just manage to pull a Sulla and add another half-century to its lifespan.
 
[X] Plan Fortune's Favourite
-[x] Legio IX
-[x] Theo
-[x] Rufus

I feel like we have a good chance of being the straw that breaks the Marians back with this.
 
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