Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome
- Thread starter Telamon
- Start date
- Original Historic
- Location
- Texas
Gift of Mars would've been an automatic +5 to all martial/military-related rolls, with a +1000 to all training rolls and +200 extra XP gained with every 'military' event.
Gift of Apollo gives +5 to all Oratory rolls, plus the same XP bonuses/gain bonuses as military (except they now apply to Oratory, obviously). You also get permanent populares, bonus to relations with the Plebs, and situational charisma bonuses. You also would've gotten the unique 'Demagogue' trait.
Gift of Venus is a +5 to all Charisma rolls, with the requisite XP bonuses as the last two for Charisma. You also would've got the unique 'Adonis' trait, and started off with one lover/paramour/what have you.
Gift of Fortuna is a +1 to all rolls, much like Minerva, but it also applies to rolls you have no control over, whereas Minerva only applies in situations where you can actually leverage your greater intelligence. It also would've given you the unique trait Fortuna's Beloved, which would've given +5 to all rolls in near-death situations, and essentially would've made unlikely things more likely. I'd probably have used it to tip the balance in close calls (i.e, you're one vote from being elected Consul, and an old friend who is a Senator makes a miraculous appearance despite last being seen in Gaul, casting the deciding vote for you.)
Gift of Bellona is a straight +7 to all personal combat rolls, and you would've got the unique trait 'Berserker', granting you special bonuses in combat situations. You'd also get more options to intimidate or physically threaten people.
Gift of Mercury is essentially a straight +5 to Stewardship, with bonuses to XP gains and rolls where any sort of 'deal' is being made. You'd also get more money-related choices and events.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well, Pompey's gonna be mad at us for a loooong time.
Then again, it was probably always going to come to this, since we weren't outright going to join Pompey's plan.
Also, to utterly grotesquely cross genres, Cicero-senpai respects us yay!
Then again, it was probably always going to come to this, since we weren't outright going to join Pompey's plan.
Also, to utterly grotesquely cross genres, Cicero-senpai respects us yay!
Stoicism was by far the Greek philosophy best suited to the Romans, and one of the few ones they were really able to make any improvement or addition to during their golden age, as far as I know. And I'd much rather roleplay a Stoic than most others.
Sounds like we have a good shot at the broad-striped tribunate, if people think it's a good call I'm for it. On the one hand, the electoral experience that comes from running for tribune among the people might do us good. On the other hand, this would be basically the first time our name comes up in the Senate, and that might be a good idea itself.
My gut says 'the legions,' not least because that is most likely to provide us with directly actionable intelligence that could help us during our career as a tribune. Potentially one of the few things that might allow us to turn the tide of a battle at our young age and low rank.
- Location
- USA
While Pompey being against us isn't good, I honestly don't think his plan would have worked. Sulla is still several years from returning and the optimates would have needed to hold Rome until then assuming they could even pull things off. I don't think they could have, with Marius so obviously holding the favor of at least one of the gods*. And if they failed, Sulla would certainly could not march in and retake Rome for the optimates.
Still I'd be more than willing to offer support for when Sulla returns. Until then we all need to bid our time.
*How else could he have survived what happened to him.
The guy we got to run our vineyard has taken the wind out of my sails to rewrite the chunk of my (aggressively meh) omake after I lost most of it to my computer crashing (god damn overheating problems). Still might get around to it eventually though.
Meh roll. Far from as bad as it could have been, but definitely not that good.
Philosophy I'm leaning eclectic, but I can be persuaded to stoic. Position I'm leaning broad stripe, but I wouldn't be against another year in Rome. Sub Rosa I've got no idea, but I'm thinking Legions.
Yep, definitely something I'd have wanted. Oh well, I wasn't here for that vote. At least there isn't a "God-Touched" character who is has multiple of these (at the expense of the gods taking the time to make sure their life is always "interesting" on the high end and getting worse from there). Those guys are like protagonists -- you have to plan everything around them because the world itself distorts around their narrative weight.
Still I'd be more than willing to offer support for when Sulla returns. Until then we all need to bid our time.
*How else could he have survived what happened to him.
The guy we got to run our vineyard has taken the wind out of my sails to rewrite the chunk of my (aggressively meh) omake after I lost most of it to my computer crashing (god damn overheating problems). Still might get around to it eventually though.
Meh roll. Far from as bad as it could have been, but definitely not that good.
Philosophy I'm leaning eclectic, but I can be persuaded to stoic. Position I'm leaning broad stripe, but I wouldn't be against another year in Rome. Sub Rosa I've got no idea, but I'm thinking Legions.
Yep, definitely something I'd have wanted. Oh well, I wasn't here for that vote. At least there isn't a "God-Touched" character who is has multiple of these (at the expense of the gods taking the time to make sure their life is always "interesting" on the high end and getting worse from there). Those guys are like protagonists -- you have to plan everything around them because the world itself distorts around their narrative weight.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well, thank heavens we started our spynet this turn, because Pompey will be a dangerous enemy. Also:
We met Cicero!
<fistpump>
All right, let's look at the voting options. I'm going to hold off on the Philosophies for a later post, since I'm very much interested in a write-in...
Philosophy-post to follow.
We met Cicero!
<fistpump>
All right, let's look at the voting options. I'm going to hold off on the Philosophies for a later post, since I'm very much interested in a write-in...
This one is pretty easy:
- 'Military Tribune' is the lowest-status tribune available, and is usually a position for promising equites (non-patricians).
- 'Broad-Striped Tribune' is the highest-status tribune available, and is typically given to a promising patrician -- aka us.
- 'Staff Tribune' is basically the 'roll dice' option -- it could be lowly, or fairly decent, depending on our charisma, our patron, and our luck. Given how well we've positioned ourselves for a Broad-Stripe, I'm not inclined to risk it.
There are two strong options here ('Priesthood' has much less upside and a much worse downside if caught -- you do not want to offend the gods, not if you want to stay in the good graces of proper Romans).
- Legions -- as the text says, this is the powerbase of the populares and the dictators of the future. That is true, and that is exceedingly important. Spying on the legion would give us information about what the legion is up to -- where it's been and what it's been up to. It also gives us a source of gossip to undermine the propaganda that great generals invariably spread on their return to Rome ("It was worthy of a Triumph, a resounding victory over the barbarians. We had to leave a few centurions behind to defend our new forts on the river." Reality: A nighttime ambush that was barely repulsed, a grisly pyrrhic victory, and no spare centurions left behind besides the ones pushing daisies). Plus, gossip would give us a chance to undercut certain generals while away from Rome -- this is one of the reasons Julius Caesar had such trouble early in his career, because of gossip that circulated around Rome that he was the lover of a King Nicomedes of Bithynia.
- On the other hand! It is also the case that spying on a legion would not provide us with much information about the activities or plans of the generals in charge of the legion. There is an inevitable distance, even with a tremendously charismatic figure like Pompey or Caesar, that separates the legion from their commander. In reality, the 'great men' of Rome spend far more time with their patrons and supporters among the patrician class. Remember that Caesar was for most of his career a puppet of Crassus, the 'richest man in Rome'.
- Patricians -- dinner-party gossip may seem banal and tedious. On the other hand, the reason we wanted a spynet was to help us navigate the politics of Rome. While we're on campaign as a tribune, we are nowhere near as vulnerable -- we're surrounded by our own men, and so long as we do a good job of leading them, we will be safe (an attack on the tribune in the field is borderline unthinkable, an attack on the legion itself). It is the patricians and elites that drive the unending intrigues of Rome, and setting up our informants among them gives us advance notice of whatever plots they set in motion.
Philosophy-post to follow.
- Location
- Texas
*cough*
Yes.
No one ridiculously skilled in almost everything here. Not in this quest, no siree. No one you're going to have to plan your game around because of their prodigious skill and talent. No one who starts off as the nephew of the beloved and amazingly powerful Consul, and is instantly given a political leg up as a result.
Huh? He's dead, silly.
EDIT: Wouldn't it be absolutely ridiculous if there was just a guy who started off with billions of dollars?
Like, just billions. I'm talking enough money to buy Rome, raze it, and build a new one. Just...obscenely rich. Disgustingly rich.
Crassly rich, even.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
And yeah, also Pompey. And Crassus.
But Caesar just gives that stronger sense of 'blessed by gods who delighted to fuck with his life as payment for their blessings.'
It depends.
Are we more interested in following the intrigues of the nobility, in which we are not a direct participant if we're off serving with the legions?
Or are we more interested in following the doings of the legions themselves? If Marius doesn't die, what happens when Sulla gets back again? The next few years could be important and see major battles in a civil war, and information correlated to the doings of the legions might give us leverage to influence the course of events.
But Caesar just gives that stronger sense of 'blessed by gods who delighted to fuck with his life as payment for their blessings.'
It depends.
Are we more interested in following the intrigues of the nobility, in which we are not a direct participant if we're off serving with the legions?
Or are we more interested in following the doings of the legions themselves? If Marius doesn't die, what happens when Sulla gets back again? The next few years could be important and see major battles in a civil war, and information correlated to the doings of the legions might give us leverage to influence the course of events.
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- Location
- Texas
It's where you'll choose to invest your time and influence for the foreseeable future, as you're about to spend quite a long time killing people in the name of Rome, far from the city and unable to direct things personally.
- Location
- Classified
*cough*
Yes.
No one ridiculously skilled in almost everything here. Not in this quest, no siree. No one you're going to have to plan your game around because of their prodigious skill and talent. No one who starts off as the nephew of the beloved and amazingly powerful Consul, and is instantly given a political leg up as a result.
Huh? He's dead, silly.
EDIT: Wouldn't it be absolutely ridiculous if there was just a guy who started off with billions of dollars?
Like, just billions. I'm talking enough money to buy Rome, raze it, and build a new one. Just...obscenely rich. Disgustingly rich.
Crassly rich, even.
I thought Crassus aka Mr. "Only guy with a Stewardship build" only went full Scrooge McDuck after the Sulla proscriptions?
- Location
- Texas
Yes. Indeed he did.
Yup. About six years from now.
Wouldn't it be weird if there was something that took you away from the city for six years, only to return to a Rome fundamentally changed from what you knew?
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
Zombie Senators are the worst.
Wouldn't it be weird if there was something that took you away from the city for six years, only to return to a Rome fundamentally changed from what you knew?
Oh Christ. Cinna is going to be going east next year, isn't he, as our equivalent of Flaccus and Fimbria. And we're going to be one of the tribunes.
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- Location
- Classified
On the one hand, the proscriptions would have been a nice opportunity to get some riches, though not anywhere near Crassus tier (due to shit stewardship and less seed capital), but on the other hand, being in Rome when this shit is going down is probably not conducive to your health, especially when you've pissed off a guy who likes the idea of killing people under cover of chaos.
All right, now for Philosophy. I'm not sure what mechanical effects this choice will have, though it certainly determines our personality in this quest.
Here's the current slate of options:
If we want to follow the crowd and take the popular choice, we should pick 'Stoic' and accept that we'll be acting as hypocrites.
If we want to avoid public life and enjoy the benefits of a patrician lifestyle, we should pick 'Epicure'.
If we want to follow Cicero and pursue rational virtue (and virtu, as in 'excellence')... either 'Eclectic' (Middle Platonism) or Peripateticism (Aristotelianism) will get us there. Considering that Peripateticism hasn't yet been recovered, and Eclecticism has strong ties to Aristotle anyway, I think 'Eclectic' should suffice.
@Telamon, can you please re-write the 'Eclecticism' option to clarify that it is not a DIY or buffet-line philosophy, but a specific school of thought based on Plato and Aristotle, and incorporating specific insights from Stoicism and a few other schools? You might also want to mention that Eclecticism was essentially founded less than 5 years ago by Antiochus of Ascalon, who studied under Philo of Larissa (the same philosophy teacher we had last turn) and who is best known today as the teacher of Cicero?
I strongly encourage this thread to vote for 'Eclectic' -- it may not be the most popular philosophy in Rome at the moment, but it is the best, and will become popular when Cicero makes his name as an author as well as an orator.
Here's the current slate of options:
For reference, here's the full list of all Hellenistic philosophies that would have been available in the Roman Republic. These include:
- Pythagoreanism -- "Everything is, like, numbers, man." This school really like numbers, and harmonies, and mathematical proportions, and did I mention numbers? Of course, it's fairly defunct at this point, due partly to a schism between the mathematikoi (math-oriented followers) and the akousmatikoi (numerology/ritual-oriented followers, the ones who really went off the deep end).
- Sophism -- "Word, words, words." This school basically invented Greek and Roman notions of oratory, and were some of the earliest lawyers in the world. However, thanks to Plato their name is also a by-word for 'liar', and they've been supplanted by more sophisticated philosophies
- Cynicism -- "Vanity, vanity, all is vanity." This is the school of Diogenes, the homeless man who lived in a tub and delighted in mocking the high and mighty, including Alexander the Great. Technically the school is similar to Stoicism -- refrain from earthly pleasures, and live a life of discipline and virtue -- but it's better known for its disregard for property and social mores. Right now it's mainly associated with beggars.
- Cyrenaicism -- "Eat, drink, and be merry; for tomorrow we die." This school is basically a more extreme version of Epicureanism. Yes, I just said that. This is a school of hedonists, who believe in pleasure and immediate gratifiation, who believe that truth is unknowable outside of direct personal experience. Yikes.
- Platonism -- "You are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind." The Matrix is a surprisingly good intro to Platonism, which teaches that the physical world is a shadow of reality, that the true nature of things can be found in the perfect World of Forms, and can be found/discerned by reason. Right now, this school has just entered the 'Middle Platonism' period, aka Eclecticism, by rejecting rigid skepticism and incorporating elements from Stoicism and Peripateticism.
- Peripateticism -- "Courage is the virtue between cowardice and recklessness." This is proper Aristotelianism, the philosophy that defined the Islamic Golden Age and the High Middle Ages, the school that emphasized both logic and empiricism, and taught that virtue could be cultivated by moderation (the 'Golden Mean') rather than by extreme asceticism or hedonism. The school has been in decline for a while -- overshadowed by the Stoics and Epicures -- but it's about to see a major revival after Sulla sacks Athens and returns to Rome with Aristotelian manuscripts.
- Pyrrhonism -- "Whatever." Pyrrhonism teaches a philosophy of skepticism -- the goal of life is happiness (eudaimonia), opinions about non-evident matters ('belief') prevent happiness, so the good life is to suspend judgment and stop caring about things as much.
- Epicureanism -- "Pleasure is the greatest good in this life... no, wait, not that kind of pleasure!" Seriously, Epicurus taught that true happiness could be found in a simple life of virtue. The problem is, everyone else heard 'pleasure' and assumed a Cyreneaic attitude of 'eat, drink, and be merry'. While the original Epicureanism might be a respectable choice, it is anything but that at this point in Rome's history. It is known for gluttons and hedonists who seek selfish pleasure and try to avoid public office or civic life. Picking this will turn Cicero into a lifelong enemy. Let's not.
- Stoicism -- "Emotions suck." Stoicism teaches that reality is driven by deterministic fate, that virtue and happiness consist in aligning one's will to (capital-N) Nature, and that emotions prevent this from happening. A moderate (mostly hypocritical) version of this is the most popular philosophy among the Roman elite. However, it's fairly rare to see people who take it seriously, and those who do rarely live long or happy lives. This is not the era of Marcus Aurelius; the archetypal Stoic of this age will be Cato the Younger -- lean, angular, full of harsh words and a disdain for the lifestyle of elites (opposing both luxury and corruption with equal fervor). Cato was famously incorruptible, and widely respected... but by the same measure was very much disliked as a person. Stoicism is an odd and often contradictory philosophy -- everything is determined but our free will in response to deterministic nature, human emotion is bad but 'living according to nature' means acting with perfect charity to all as a matter of principle, etc. There are some praiseworthy elements, but Stoicism on its own always struck me as a fairly inhuman philosophy. Small wonder so many adherents preferred a more 'moderate' course.
If we want to follow the crowd and take the popular choice, we should pick 'Stoic' and accept that we'll be acting as hypocrites.
If we want to avoid public life and enjoy the benefits of a patrician lifestyle, we should pick 'Epicure'.
If we want to follow Cicero and pursue rational virtue (and virtu, as in 'excellence')... either 'Eclectic' (Middle Platonism) or Peripateticism (Aristotelianism) will get us there. Considering that Peripateticism hasn't yet been recovered, and Eclecticism has strong ties to Aristotle anyway, I think 'Eclectic' should suffice.
@Telamon, can you please re-write the 'Eclecticism' option to clarify that it is not a DIY or buffet-line philosophy, but a specific school of thought based on Plato and Aristotle, and incorporating specific insights from Stoicism and a few other schools? You might also want to mention that Eclecticism was essentially founded less than 5 years ago by Antiochus of Ascalon, who studied under Philo of Larissa (the same philosophy teacher we had last turn) and who is best known today as the teacher of Cicero?
I strongly encourage this thread to vote for 'Eclectic' -- it may not be the most popular philosophy in Rome at the moment, but it is the best, and will become popular when Cicero makes his name as an author as well as an orator.
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Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
-[] Eclecticism
-[] Broad-Striped Tribune
-[] The Aristocracy
Specifically looking at Eclectism that will turn into Peripateticism for the philosophy choice, because it fits what the thread is likely going to vote along the lines of in the future, so it'll help keep votes more naturally "in-character".
The broad-striped tribune is influence and prestige without the same level of risk and indebtedness that could result from staff tribune, while being more prestigious than an ordinary tribune. And if we're going to spend years away from Rome, then we really need to have a well-developed intrigue network waiting us when we return, so that we'll be more well informed and better protected from rivals.
EDIT:
Actually, I'm just going to go for it:
[] Plan "Moderation and Pragmatism"
-[] Peripateticism: "Courage is the virtue between cowardice and recklessness." This is proper Aristotelianism, the philosophy that defined the Islamic Golden Age and the High Middle Ages, the school that emphasized both logic and empiricism, and taught that virtue could be cultivated by moderation (the 'Golden Mean') rather than by extreme asceticism or hedonism. The school has been in decline for a while -- overshadowed by the Stoics and Epicures -- but it's about to see a major revival after Sulla sacks Athens and returns to Rome with Aristotelian manuscripts.
-[] Broad-Striped Tribune: Five out of the six tribunes assigned to a legion are elected by the people, but the sixth, or broad-striped tribune, is assigned by the Senate. A young man of Senatorial or Patrician rank, he is afforded more respect and dignity than a normal tribune. You would have to appeal to Scaevola to argue on your behalf, but he is well-connected and powerful, increasing your chances of winning.
-[] The Aristocracy: The great parties and bacchanals thrown by Rome's patrician class all have one thing in common -- they are staffed and manned by slaves and servants, common people with common wants who might easily sell their eyes and ears for coin. Buying people inside the debauched festivals of Rome's mightiest offers a chance to earn valuable information which might be used for blackmail or manipulation.
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- Location
- USA
Right. Caesar... Oh hey, we're pretty close in age to him. Oh shit, we're pretty close in age to him. Although he supposedly will be made the High Priest of Jupiter in a year or two, and with our patron, we'll probably hear something about him (assuming our patron lives that long).
Huh? He's dead, silly.
EDIT: Wouldn't it be absolutely ridiculous if there was just a guy who started off with billions of dollars?
Like, just billions. I'm talking enough money to buy Rome, raze it, and build a new one. Just...obscenely rich. Disgustingly rich.
Crassly rich, even.
Huh? Didn't Marcus Licinius Crassus not get absurdly wealthy until Sulla took power? And didn't he start of with a relatively modest fortune? Is there someone else absurdly wealthy I don't know of?
- Location
- Central Europe
100% onboard with [] Plan "Moderation and Pragmatism".
So, while we wait I have a question:
So, while we wait I have a question:
Is there a mistake here or am I missing/confusing something?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Huh? Could you expand on that? My knowledge of Roman philosophy is failing me.
Droman
𐤊𐤍𐤏𐤍
[] Peripateticism -- "Courage is the virtue between cowardice and recklessness." This is proper Aristotelianism, the philosophy that defined the Islamic Golden Age and the High Middle Ages, the school that emphasized both logic and empiricism, and taught that virtue could be cultivated by moderation (the 'Golden Mean') rather than by extreme asceticism or hedonism. The school has been in decline for a while -- overshadowed by the Stoics and Epicures -- but it's about to see a major revival after Sulla sacks Athens and returns to Rome with Aristotelian manuscripts.
This sounds really interesting. Wonder if @Telamon would accept this as a choice?
This sounds really interesting. Wonder if @Telamon would accept this as a choice?