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Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome

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Deadly Snark said:
I am not sure that you can necessarily call the Gracchi the last defenders of Roman Democracy. Because while their cause was just and they did want to help the people, many of their actions directly caused a lot of damage to the Institutions of Rome Traditions.
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It depends on what you find more important — the ideals of the Republic or it's traditions? It's traditions were meant to support it's ideals, but over the centuries became corrupted into weapons of the patrician oligarchy. To save Roman democracy in the waning years of the Republic, one would either have to restore the traditions and wrest them from the grip of the elite, or simply circumvent them altogether in order to champion the Republic's ideals.

The Gracchi chose the latter.
 
Telamon said:
There, he won decorations for being the first man to scale the walls of Carthage, and proved himself to be a capable soldier and leader of men.
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Article:
The city had massive walls, 37 km (23 mi) in length, longer than the walls of comparable cities. Most of the walls were located on the shore, thus could be less impressive, as Carthaginian control of the sea made attack from that direction difficult. The 4.0 to 4.8 km (2.5 to 3 mi) of wall on the isthmus to the west were truly massive and were never penetrated.
Source: Wikipedia


So what I'm hearing is that unless Nola's walls rival or exceed the magnificence of Carthage's, Panda's "Distract Them Then Scale The Walls" plan is feasible as hell.
 
Telamon said:
The Gracchi chose the latter.
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And in doing so they also turned almost the entirety of the Roman Elites against them which played a large role in their deaths. I am not saying that I necessarily know how they could have done it better, but it is poignant to point out that while they might have believed that what they did was necessary, in breaking the traditions themselves they also allowed their enemies to break traditions against them.
 
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Well, Mars would appreciate that, since one of his other aspects is of agriculture. Watering the fields with the blood of our enemies indeed.
 
Pandemonious Ivy said:
Article:
The city had massive walls, 37 km (23 mi) in length, longer than the walls of comparable cities. Most of the walls were located on the shore, thus could be less impressive, as Carthaginian control of the sea made attack from that direction difficult. The 4.0 to 4.8 km (2.5 to 3 mi) of wall on the isthmus to the west were truly massive and were never penetrated.
Source: Wikipedia


So what I'm hearing is that unless Nola's walls rival or exceed the magnificence of Carthage's, Panda's "Distract Them Then Scale The Walls" plan is feasible as hell.
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Except they don't, because Nola's wall are far shorter, meaning they can be garrisoned on all sides without stretching the soldiers too thin. There are simply far too many defenders there right now.
 
Deadly Snark said:
And in doing so they also turned almost the entirety of the Roman Elites against them which played a large role in their deaths. I am not saying that I necessarily know how they could have done it better, but it is poignant to point out that while they might have believed that what they did was necessary, in breaking the traditions themselves they also allowed their enemies to break traditions against them.
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I think this a bit of a chicken and question. But, regardless, there already was an obstinate senatorial faction dead set against any land reform. As Mike Duncan points out,
"Before Tiberius took office, the Claudian reformers floated the contents of the Lex Agraria to their senatorial colleagues, but met with incredulous resistance. After occupying the ager publicus for many years, these wealthy landowners had come to regard the public land as their personal property. They had invested in it, improved it, used it as collateral for loans, given it away as dowries, and bequeathed it to their heirs. The authors of the bill wrote a number of concessions to lessen opposition: offering compensation for the ager publicus seized, giving clear title to the five hundred iugera that remained, making allowances for larger families to hold more land. But even with these concessions, a large faction in the Senate planned to resist the bill no matter what. To have their land confiscated and handed over to the shiftless rabble was simply out of the question.
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Tiberius' move to cut the senate out and go to the popular assembly did break tradition. But this was a problem that desperately needed to be solved and there were many Senators who just had every incentive to resist any reform. The same was true of other pressing issues as well. Add in the suspicion and hostility that any senator might feel towards another rival gaining the prestige, clients and/or wealth from solving a problem like land reform, and you begin to see why the traditional process wasn't cutting it any more.

In effect, Tiberius and his allies didn't really have much of a choice if they wanted to get the ball rolling on land reform. Nothing was getting through the senate. So they turned to the assembly. I really don't think there was a way to fix things without bending rules and upsetting precedent.
 
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Yeah most of Tiberius reforms were needed, the problem is he basically brute forced his way to get them passed. That was needed to a degree to actually get them passed, but it did stomp all over precedent and open the flood gates on some nasty behaviors.
 
AvidFicReader said:
@Simon_Jester Volero is our sparring partner from the forum, who serves under Pompey, iirc. Writing him will let us know what Pompey is doing with his legions.
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Ohhh, right!

Good idea, though Pompey is fairly likely to know we are writing to Volero and may exercise influence over exactly what gets said in those letters.

Deadly Snark said:
I am not sure that you can necessarily call the Gracchi the last defenders of Roman Democracy. Because while their cause was just and they did want to help the people, many of their actions directly caused a lot of damage to the Institutions of Rome Traditions.
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Well, the thing is, Roman democracy and Roman traditions were always kiiiind of in conflict. On the one hand, the traditions were in many ways profoundly antidemocratic. On the other hand, they were also the only things preventing the semi-democratic nature of the system from degenerating into a mass of competing strongmen.

Always Late said:
OK, that clinches it. Fate Omake's getting some edits.
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[twitches]

STOP TROLLING US WITH THIS THING WE NEVER GET TO SEE!

[twitches]

:p
 
Telamon said:
The Carcellan Stratagem [] Should the siege continue into the winter, the legion will fall back to the Roman city of Beneventum and winter there.
--[] You suggest leaving a token force to continue the siege in wintertime, cycling out the cohorts on duty to prevent exhaustion.
--[] You suggest planting men on the roads in order to ensure their food supply is cut off, and placing scouts to watch the city for any sorties.

The Pompolussan Stratagem [] Continue the siege, but build winter quarters for the legion around the city, with thick walls and defenses to keep out the cold and the swords of your enemies.

The Mercator Stratagem [] Make no winter preparations, but throw the manpower and resources that might have been used otherwise into ending the siege as quickly as possible. (+2 Siege Votes)

Write-In [] After careful thought, you have come up with your own plan, which you pitch to the gathered officers.
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Ok. Mercator is probably a no go for me. Sure, we might be able to storm the city, but not without horrible casualties. Not a fan of that, even if it would raise the average pay for our men by a lot.
Pompolussa I'd like, but that means we need to crack down on bandits effectively immediately. And we need to make sure that food is provided and who knows, maybe the Vulturnus rebels get off their asses and raid the region around Bovianum and or take our supplies for themselves.
Carcella's idea of a token force sounds terrible. Planting men on the roads will probably not completely cut them off, but seeing as this region has been at war for a while now I doubt that there is a lot of food readily available for both Nola and the villages around the city. We might not be back at square one after the winter.

I think I'd agree with Pompolussa here, but I'm honestly not sure what to do here.

Telamon said:
[] Engines of War: You begin pushing for the construction of powerful siege engines, devoting your intelligence and skill to procuring more men to help build them, more resources to construct them, and, if you have the knowledge, putting them together.

[] A Crack in the Walls: You begin attempting to make contact with unhappy elements within the walls of the city, using your charm and not a bit of luck to make contact with men you hope may be willing to betray the Samnite cause from the inside out.

[] A Matter of Allies: Many in the Roman camp trust the Hirpinic auxilaries about as far as they could throw their entire army, and the feeling is almost entirely mutual. You attempt to impress upon the men the importance of accepting the Samnite auxiliaries as their brothers-in-arms.

[] A Matter of Allied Officers: You begin speaking to the officers among the Hirpini and attempting to convince them to support Rome, as you did their Pentri cousins. These officers, while not the source of much of the dissent in their ranks, could certainly do more to quell it if they felt so inclined.

[] Training: The men you took with you to the north have been hardened by battle, it is true, but some of them have not fully shaken off the dew of civilian life. You begin subjecting them to a harsh training regimen in order to bring them all up to par.

[] Outriders: You take the Gallic auxiliaries and begin scouring the surrounding area for rebels and rebel-allied bandits, hoping to tighten the noose and reduce the amount of food which slips through the barricades into the city by hidden means.

[] An Army Marches On Its Stomach: You visit the outlying towns and cities, hoping to procure extra food for the legions by convincing the elders of these towns to donate to the war effort, as it's in their best interests.
--[] You take a few legionnaires with you and set about 'convincing' them to 'donate'.

[] A Matter of Wealth: Some of the men feel their share of the loot is a bit too small, and have taken to complaining about it rather loudly. It is Carcellus' duty to administer discipline, but if you stepped in and saw to their problems directly, you could improve your standing among the men.

[] A Law Beyond The Sword: The men often have simple issues, complaints, or grievances which they wish to address. As broad-striped tribune, it is your duty to see to these. One afternoon, you set up a table in the middle of camp and invite men to come air their grievances before you, and perhaps even raise a case against a fellow soldier.

[] Maintenance: Though it is the Camp Prefect's duty to ensure maintenance of equipment and materials, you begin to rigidly enforce the proper maintenance of personal weapons and armor. Through reduced rations and corporal punishment, you will force the men to ensure their equipment does not rust or rot.

[] Blessed By Mars: Sertorius has made clear his intentions to honor Mars as the patron of the Sixth Legion, and the nickname given to the legion, the Blessed-By-Mars, has already filled the men with a sense of pride and driven up Mars worship in the legion. You begin to enforce and codify this practice, trying to encourage commonplace worship of Mars (in his aspect as Gradivus the Soldier-God).

[] Justice Beyond The Walls: You begin cracking down on even minor offenses and crimes, making it more than clear that the rule of Rome extends far beyond the city walls. The men respect a disciplinarian -- but they will never love him.

[] The Left Hand Strays: The other tribunes are, well, a disappointment. With the exception of Rufus, they are all young men who were elected on the strength of their family names over any actual skill or worthiness they might have. You take it upon yourself to whip them into shape and make them decent extensions of Sertorius' will -- and your own. You failed at this the last time you tried, but you have now had a taste of battle and leadership.

[] Portents and Signs: You contact the Camp Augur and hold a public augury. Auguries are necessary to determine the fate of any military venture, as men are often nervous marching into battle without a sign from the gods, but if the augury is unfavorable to the campaign, the morale of the legion will be lowered.
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Outriders
A Matter of Allied Officers
Blessed by Mars
In that order.

In that order I think. We want to secure our supply lines while preventing any attacks in our backs if somehow possible. Then we need to get the Hirpini on board, even if I expect it to be hard.
And Mars is just something I wanted to do since the start.
I don't trust Engines of War and the Crack in the Wall simply for relying on our weak stats. I'd like to do A Matter of Allies, but that won't help if the Hirpini pack up and leave. I'd love to do Training but I won't be swayed from Mars after that awesome augury.
An Army Marches On Its Stomach definitely important, but won't help if the bandits are around...
You know what, I'm thinking of voting for Mercator just to get more options. They are all that necessary.:oops:

Telamon said:
[] Write Home: You take the opportunity of remaining on the Italian Peninsula to write back home to your friends and allies in the city. You wrote to...
(Pick Two)
--[] Scaevola
--[] Cicero
--[] Atticus
--[] Proserpina
--[] Volero

[] Study Logistics: You read books on planning and organization, hoping to gain greater mastery of logistics and large-scale planning.

[] Speak With The Architects: You speak with the legion's architects and engineers, hoping to increase your own knowledge of Engineering.

[] Brotherhood: You begin eating your meals with the men, to show them that you stand as one of them, not some aloof aristocrat.

[] Bonds of Brotherhood: You spend time with Rufus, Pompolussa, Mercator, and the other friends you've made in your time in the legions, hoping to deepen the bonds further. Some of Rome's greatest political alliances were born in camps like this one.

[] Carousing: You spend some of your nights carousing and partying with the Gauls, hoping to increase their opinions of you even further.

[] Old One-Eye: You begin making an effort to bond even more with Sertorius outside of your daily talks. You have won the general's approval, but if you can win his friendship, your survival in Rome will become far, far easier.

[] Exercise Regimen: You begin a daily exercise regimen, waking in the morning and running a circuit of the camp to begin your day.

[] Expand Journal: You begin expanding your journal to include more than strictly military matters, such as political happenings or philosophical musings.

[] Sparring: You began sparring with the men, testing your own skill with the blade against the skill of the men serving under you.

[] Silver Tongues, Silver Words: You began to attempt to form deeper connections with the men, walking around the camp and speaking and talking to your soldiers. With enough personal charisma and skill for speech, you can begin to make yourself as loved in their hearts as Sertorius.

[] Fortune's Favor: After camp is made for the night, several of the officers, including Carcellus, gather to gamble and game. These men are all fast friends, with ties stretching back years, but if if you integrated yourself with them and got them to consider you one of them, it would go a long way towards improving your standing in the legion.

[] Study Finance: Money. How does it work? Where does it come from? What, exactly, is it? You're not too sure on any of those counts, so you decide to sit down and try and find out when you have the time.

[] Study Warfare: You study the campaigns of some of Rome's greatest generals, hoping to increase your own skill with command.

[] Study: You have your slaves bring you as many books as you can and begin to read. This has a chance of increasing any skill by a random amount of XP, or even learning a skill you do not know.
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Letters, because I want to write Scaevola (I'm totally going to vote for putting Cicero on a proscription list should he stand in Atellus' way to Emperor, chosen waifu-status be damned:mad:)
The rest is kind of up in the air.

@Telamon what's the regimen going to be for? Personal fitness seems to be covered by sparring.

Sorry, it's late and we could use everything in the personal options. I really want to pick up sparring again at some point, just to make sure we can do what Crassus did in Spartacus. Hold out long enough for our men to stab Spartacus in the back.:p
I definitely don't want to go out like that bitch Glaber.;)
 
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I still think we should try and bunker down for the winter to make it look like we're trying to starve them out, but in actuality we're tunneling under the walls to render them a non-issue. They can't guard every square foot of ground not covered in stone after all.
 
Thyreus said:
Ok. Mercator is probably a no go for me. Sure, we might be able to storm the city, but not without horrible casualties. Not a fan of that, even if it would raise the average pay for our men by a lot.

Pompolussa I'd like, but that means we need to crack down on bandits effectively immediately. And we need to make sure that food is provided and who knows, maybe the Vulturnus rebels get off their asses and raid the region around Bovianum and or take our supplies for themselves.
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Um, point of order, we're not drawing supplies from Bovianum. We're drawing them from Beneventum (the same place we WERE getting supplied when we were up in Bovianum) and maybe Capua (on the coast). If the Vulturnus rebels raid around Bovianum, that sucks for the Boviani but it doesn't directly affect us.

By contrast, note that the 'Vulturnus' rebels are actually rebels in the upper valley of that river. We are already operating in the lower valley. So the concern is that they might (with a charismatic leader much more effectual than this Tercerian bozo) try to go down the river to interfere with us.

You know what, I'm thinking of voting for Mercator just to get more options. They are all that necessary.:oops:
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The problem is that plan Mercator doesn't make any provisions for what to do if the siege doesn't end before winter. Which means we're kind of screwed if, well, the siege doesn't end before winter. Our men will be freezing their asses off with minimal provisions for how to get supplies to us in this area.

@Telamon what's the regimen going to be for? Personal fitness seems to be covered by sparring.
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They're not the same thing. Sparring means practicing, specifically, the art of fighting with swords and other weapons. A personal fitness regimen would presumably be stuff like picking up rocks and doing calisthenics and loooooots of cardio. Because the Roman legions were all about cardio. And not skipping leg day. :p

I suspect that if we cultivate our personal fitness, it will help a hidden Health stat (a la Crusader Kings, which this quest is in part inspired by). It may also indirectly help combat. Conversely, if we started really slacking off somehow, like more than is average for a Roman patrician, we might suffer maluses to Health over time (especially as we get older; at eighteen you can screw around a lot and get away with it). Or penalties to combat, or to our reputation, as people notice that wow, we're really letting ourselves go. Remember how people kind of snickered at Rufus because he looked flabby with his toga off compared to the other tribunes?

Always Late said:
Given your trio of Gaulic mercenaries are a prominent set of secondary characters, I probably should give you access to the Gdoc.
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:D

Nitpick: Gallic, not Gaulic. Also, I was very happy to be able to slip not only a reference from the usual pool for classical Roman stuff in there, but also a Schlock Mercenary reference.

I would not be at all surprised if Veniximaeus is a distant ancestor of Captain Kaff Tagon. :p
 
Simon_Jester said:
Um, point of order, we're not drawing supplies from Bovianum. We're drawing them from Beneventum (the same place we WERE getting supplied when we were up in Bovianum) and maybe Capua (on the coast). If the Vulturnus rebels raid around Bovianum, that sucks for the Boviani but it doesn't directly affect us.

By contrast, note that the 'Vulturnus' rebels are actually rebels in the upper valley of that river. We are already operating in the lower valley. So the concern is that they might (with a charismatic leader much more effectual than this Tercerian bozo) try to go down the river to interfere with us.
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Yeah, and? I'm expecting the Pentri to come whining about rebels laying waste to their fields and villages come late autumn because their nobles aren't interested in paying mercenaries or assembling their men, not us getting starved to death by the rebels should they raid around Bovianum. The supplies I wrote about are specifically the ones coming down to us from Beneventum.
Simon_Jester said:
The problem is that plan Mercator doesn't make any provisions for what to do if the siege doesn't end before winter. Which means we're kind of screwed if, well, the siege doesn't end before winter. Our men will be freezing their asses off with minimal provisions for
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I know, I read the description. Doesn't mean that we couldn't use more options.:p
 
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@Telamon I was serious about changing the moratorium since I can not post that late I got to get some sleep before heading to work in the morning.

But can you please change it to a better time especially since discussion has died down.
 
I'm not fond of the Carcellan plan at all. It lets go of initiative. I see no reason to expect the strategic situation to be better after the winter; on the contrary, it gives the rebels some breathing room. Sertorius spent all summer long putting the pressure on them. Also, what was the point to move our troops as fast as we could to Nola, only to decamp away to Beneventum? If so, that move was a strategic mistake.

The Pompolussa plan is the ostentatiously safe and slow way, starving them during the winter. However, that's a long time and many things could happen during those months.

The Mercator plan (which it should be emphasised, is *not* storming but active and offensive besieging) is the ostentatiously high-risk high reward option. The 2 extra siege options, if judiciously chosen, could give it the edge.

I see both as possible choices. The siege choices should be appropriate for each plan.

Comments on selected siege options:

"Outriders" and "Army's Stomach" are both good options, especially for a long-term siege; question is should both be chosen or only one if so which one. "Blessed By Mars" keeping the victorious morale of our troops after the good omens of the campaign so far (also, possible synergy with the Voice Of Mars). "Engines of War" is a given if we're trying to breach, otherwise not.

I think maybe we should hold back with "Allies/Allied officers" until our -1 Diplomacy modifier goes away next turn (same for "Crack in the Walls")? Could be compensated by our rhetoric abilities possibly.

Not as high priority:

"Training" increasing the quality of our troops. "Left Hand Strays" better staff officers.

The rest is low-priority or downright inadvisable (e.g. "Justice beyond the walls", "maintenance").


There are 3 personal choices that I'd like to see in any plan:

Article:
[] Write Home: You take the opportunity of remaining on the Italian Peninsula to write back home to your friends and allies in the city. You wrote to...
(Pick Two)
--[] Cicero
--[] Proserpina
Continuing our correspondence with Cicero, which was so fruitful in a previous turns. Proserpina for domestic reports and exclusive political information.

Article:
[] Bonds of Brotherhood: You spend time with Rufus, Pompolussa, Mercator, and the other friends you've made in your time in the legions, hoping to deepen the bonds further. Some of Rome's greatest political alliances were born in camps like this one.
Short-term it improves the command and control of the legion. Long-term we want men of this calibre to join our following.

Article:
[] Old One-Eye: You begin making an effort to bond even more with Sertorius outside of your daily talks. You have won the general's approval, but if you can win his friendship, your survival in Rome will become far, far easier.
Making good of the opportunity of being with Sertorius.

One last thing we should not forget:

Telamon said:
Greater Augury Received: The Voice of Mars

+2 to morale rolls and offensive rolls for all units under your command for the next 3 turns.
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Telamon said:
Gracchus' head was cut off and returned to Rome as a trophy, and his remaining supporters exiled or dispersed. The laws of the Gracchi were reversed and repealed, and then some -- within a decade, the people suffered even more than they had before the Gracchian reforms. In death, Tiberius and Gaius Gracchus become demigods, heroes of the city and the people, worshiped on street corners and in temples as champions of the Republic and idols of the common man. The spots where they died became holy ground, and shrines to them popped up across Rome and Italy. They were prayed to by the poor and the weak and the homeless, who begged them for succor, for liberty, for the freedom they had so briefly tasted. But it was too late. The final, staunchest defenders of Roman democracy were dead, and the ideal would never rise again.
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Also, interestingly enough, the senate offered a reward on his head depending on the weight, and when the head was delivered to them, it was found to weigh like 17 pounds because someone had poured molten lead into it in order to try and get more money.
 
Nurgle said:
@Telamon I was serious about changing the moratorium since I can not post that late I got to get some sleep before heading to work in the morning.

But can you please change it to a better time especially since discussion has died down.
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I realize that the moratorium ends at 2:00 AM since, well, that's when I posted the update, and many players can't afford to be up that long. As such, if you have a plan to post, you may post it at 10:00 PM Central. Do not vote -- voting can wait til later.

As a general note, I am liking how the 24-hour moratorium works, but I understand that it can be negatively affected by my unorthodox (read: nonexistent) posting schedule, which is exacerbated by the fact that I can only properly write at night after finishing classes and getting out of work. To those annoyed by these increasingly late posting times, I ask you to bear with me for just one or two more weeks. Finals are close at hand, but once that storm has passed, I should have considerably more free time.
 
Thyreus said:
Yeah, and? I'm expecting the Pentri to come whining about rebels laying waste to their fields and villages come late autumn because their nobles aren't interested in paying mercenaries or assembling their men, not us getting starved to death by the rebels should they raid around Bovianum. The supplies I wrote about are specifically the ones coming down to us from Beneventum.
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Ahh, I see. I was confused because I didn't see how us winning the siege at Nola would necessarily prevent such raiding around Bovianum. The Vulturnus rebels are a large enough force that IF they have a competent leader, they don't have to just evaporate after the fall of Nola. If Tercerian's still in charge at that point, they're likely to just sort of dissolve, or turn on him in hopes of sparing their own lives and avoiding ghastly retribution for his slaughter of Roman citizens. But if someone else deposes him, they might try to hang on and/or raid in areas where the Romans are not operating.

So while yes, under Plan Pompolussa we have to worry about the Vulturnus rebels somehow growing a collective pair and doing something effective for a change while we're away, we ALSO have to worry about that if we choose Plan Carcellus (and build our winter camp in Beneventum) or Plan Mercator (and build our winter camp, hastily, um... somewhere).
 
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