Arphazêl is such a delightful asshole. It's hilarious how deep in denial she is.

Still, her understanding of Elessar's claims are obviously biased. Arvedui claimed the crown of Gondor for himself, arguing that he should be King of Gondor, not that Fíriel should have been Queen of Gondor. Aragorn claimed to be the heir of Isildur and Anárion. He mostly emphasized Isildur's High Kingship, but he did claim to be the heir of Anárion. I'm not sure though who the line of Elendil is supposed to be usurping. Sauron, I guess, lmao.

I'm a bit surprised though that Gondor has expanded so quickly though. That's quite far to push the borders. The only way I can think of fitting is that he's claimed Enedwaith, Rhovanion, and the Harad annexations. Southern Rhovanion wouldn't be very populated, if at all beyond Dorwinion. Harad though should be deeply populated enough. Enedwaith was also heavily populated on the coasts, by primitive fishfolk. A decade is a very short time to expand it so far, when it was so underpopulated. Makes sense that Faramir was concerned about the cost.

It's obvious she doesn't know anything about Eriador though. Almost nobody lives there. There's Bree and the Shire. There's also those farmers from the Hobbit. There's also the Dúnedain. But that's tiny in size, or Hobbits who stayed in the Shire. Where did the population to rebuild Annúminas, let alone Arnor, come from? There'd have to be... people there for it be said to be conquerd. :V

Arphazel's bias is fairly obvious and colors everything she says about Aragorn (especially considering she's never even met him). She could see him playing with his son and she'd start grumbling about how he's being idle and neglecting his royal duties and can only enjoy his time with his son by exploiting Gondorian peasants.

A lot of Gondor's newly claimed land is probably underpopulated empty land with at most a couple outposts to hold it down. Rebuilding Arnor and developing all that empty land is probably the kind of project that would consume all of Aragorn's reign (even with his extended Numenorean lifespan). I'd imagine that peace and prosperity combined with all that empty land would result in a population explosion, and there are always policies Aragorn could use to encourage people to settle in the wild lands. The classic "You can own your own land if you settle in untamed wilderness" offer would draw people north.

Nothing in the comment is not addressed by what I have already said. Arphazel being privileged and suffering from Aragorn's actions does not make her any less of an asshole. Plenty of Lost Causers act and acted for the exact reasons you mention, but I am perfectly willing to judge them regardless of how 'justified' their attitude could be argued to be. The author has explicitly stated her view is 'Sauron did nothing wrong.'

She is deeply in denial, as I said in the second sentence of my first comment in this thread. Yes, she was raised that way. That does not make her any less pathetic. It is perfectly fine to laugh at characters who believe that the axiometric definition of evil did nothing wrong.

Admittedly the exact nuance of her views on Sauron is one of the things the current vote can dive into, so I'd hesitate to put her firmly in the camp of "Sauron did nothing wrong." This is the first time someone's really challenged her tilted perspective of The War of the Ring, and an opportunity for her to grow a bit (or double down).

In writing the current update I was aiming more for a bit of moral relativism/whataboutism. Mimicking the sort of arguments you'd get out of a Lost Causer whenever the conversation turns to the bad things the Confederacy did and stood for, where she doesn't outright deny that bad things happened so much as try to shift the conversation away from those uncomfortable and indefensible facts. "What about how the North treated Indians? What about how Yankees were racist too?" and so on. I've tried to avoid anything outright nasty and reality-denying like "Nurn's slaves were happy and treated well" or "Orcs were nice and peace-loving." At the end of the day I want her to be a likable character who just has a few bad perspectives on account of being raised in Mordor by Sauron loyalists.
 
I've tried to avoid anything outright nasty and reality-denying like "Nurn's slaves were happy and treated well"
Not all of the Men of Núrn were slaves though, they had a warrior-caste, consisting mostly of the Variags, like Khand's, and of slaves they captured from other Eastern and Southern realms.

Anyway, I think a Black Númenórean that's been raised by former slaves would go into the "Slavery is a fact of life in the Man-realms of East and South, you figure that out" justification.
(A typical Black Númenórean would go into a racist justification)
 
he conquered Umbar. that wasn't very just, from their view. he couldn't do much else, but its still complicated

Cleaning out Sauron loyalists was generally a necessary bit of mopping up after the War of the Ring, and all indications are Umbar's leaders weren't especially nice people while Aragorn ruled fairly and justly after taking over the city.

(A typical Black Númenórean would go into a racist justification)

Very true, "I have the right to rule over the lesser races of Men as chattel by virtue of my superior Numenorean genes" was a common viewpoint during Numenor's colonial age. I'd rather not have Arphazel holding views like that since they would be counter to having her be a likable character.
 
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Cleaning out Sauron loyalists was generally a necessary bit of mopping up after the War of the Ring, and all indications are Umbar's leaders weren't especially nice people while Aragorn ruled fairly and justly after taking over the city.
True. but its not like conquering someone is a good thing. it was certainly neccessary in that case, but there is a lot of reason for Arphazel to view that badly, especially given that she probably wasn't too aware of all the bad parts of Umbar.

anyway I think my point is- Arphazel needs to learn and change, perhaps, but she is not evil, and no asshole there. she just had the bad luck to be born on the wrong side.
 
[] In what coin do you expect me to repay my debt?
-[] "For so long the people of Nurn had few choices, one of the first choices they had were between vengeance or kindness. That they showed kindness to a child over vengeance for generations of wrongs is still a mystery to me. Do you think I would treat that kindness with disdain? Do you think I wouldn't do anything to protect and nurture them as they have me?"
-[] " We are a people of cast offs and slaves. Why would Nurn ask me to spit on my old homes, those places that are now nothing but ruins? Why would they ask me to denounce my parents, those people who are long dead? There is no reason when it is those places, those people and those memories which they decided made me best suited to speak to the likes of your Prince without being ignored, cheated or subjugated."

Both of these work really well as responses to Tirndis's question. I would be fine with either of them.

Edit: Do we need these in plan format?
 
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I could tell about her bias. It'll be exciting to see how that develops.

I'm sure there's going to be a population explosion, but I'm not sure it'll be because of the new empty land in Arnor and sorta Rhovanion. Gondor already had a bunch of empty land, the army that marched upon the Black Gate was scarcely a vanguard in the days of its glory. The prospect of settling Arnor has to contend with the prospect of settling Gondor too. Obviously Aragorn manages to restore both, but it's still one of those things Tolkien didn't think about too clearly.

That's fair. She definitely hasn't thought about any of this. And it seems like inhabitants of Nurn haven't really challenged her, either that or she's always been able to hold the upper hand conversationally without being put in this position.

I noticed that! I've interacted with many Lost Causers and they tend to react pretty much that way. A lot of it is subconscious and many would say that racism is bad, not considering unconscious thoughts. I thought it's been pretty well written.

I've only had a couple quibbles about your work so far. I thought it was a bit odd that the Gondorians didn't at least squint at the Ar- prefix in her name. Aragorn's title Lord of the Westlands seems like he would have claimed overlordship of Nurn by default, like with Dale and Erebor. But all things considered, those are extremely minor and don't affect much. And it's not like that Aragorn hasn't been extremely busy with things that aren't inside Mordor. (Edit: Just thought of a reason for the name, the Gondorians have every reason to be too distracted by her attitudes and actions to notice the claim her name makes.)

True. but its not like conquering someone is a good thing. it was certainly neccessary in that case, but there is a lot of reason for Arphazel to view that badly, especially given that she probably wasn't too aware of all the bad parts of Umbar.

anyway I think my point is- Arphazel needs to learn and change, perhaps, but she is not evil, and no asshole there. she just had the bad luck to be born on the wrong side.
No one is saying that Arphazel doesn't have a reason to think and act this way. But having a reason to act this way doesn't make her actions any less assholish. There's no reason for her to attack Elessar's legitimacy, she knew it would be offensive! And still, comparing Aragorn rebuilding an abandoned kingdom to conquest is just ignorant and showcases her extreme biases. Arphazel only succeeded on one dice roll and needed five. Part of that was Tirndis not wanting to be convinced, but a lot of that was Arphazel's attitude. Look at her behavior about Minas Morgul, she was itching for a fight.
 
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And still, comparing Aragorn rebuilding an abandoned kingdom to conquest is just ignorant and showcases her extreme biases.
Eh, the Bree-land probably doesn't feel much less conquered than Nurn, having to pay tax to Annuminas without even the special protections the Shire got.
 
Do we know how strong/diluted her numenorean blood is? How tall and long living will she be? Does she even know herself?
 
Both of these work really well as responses to Tirndis's question. I would be fine with either of them.

Edit: Do we need these in plan format?

No need for plan format, but for longer write-ins it's probably not a bad idea to give it a short and snappy name.

I could tell about her bias. It'll be exciting to see how that develops.

I'm sure there's going to be a population explosion, but I'm not sure it'll be because of the new empty land in Arnor and sorta Rhovanion. Gondor already had a bunch of empty land, the army that marched upon the Black Gate was scarcely a vanguard in the days of its glory. The prospect of settling Arnor has to contend with the prospect of settling Gondor too. Obviously Aragorn manages to restore both, but it's still one of those things Tolkien didn't think about too clearly.

Tolkien was a lot more interested in characters and themes than all the nitty-gritty details of rulership. He didn't want to dive into the logistical details of how Aragorn would rebuild Arnor, or what his tax policy would be. Aragorn was the good and rightful king, so of course everything would go well for Gondor and they would be able to rebuild Arnor and return to their glory days.

That's fair. She definitely hasn't thought about any of this. And it seems like inhabitants of Nurn haven't really challenged her, either that or she's always been able to hold the upper hand conversationally without being put in this position.

I noticed that! I've interacted with many Lost Causers and they tend to react pretty much that way. A lot of it is subconscious and many would think that racism is bad, not considering unconscious thoughts. I thought it's been pretty well written.

I've only had a couple quibbles about your work so far. I thought it was a bit odd that the Gondorians didn't at least squint at the Ar- prefix in her name. Aragorn's title Lord of the Westlands seems like he would have claimed overlordship of Nurn by default, like with Dale and Erebor. But all things considered, those are extremely minor and don't affect much. And it's not like that Aragorn hasn't been extremely busy with things that aren't inside Mordor.

Arphazel also wouldn't be as inclined to pick fights over The War of the Ring while she's in Nurn. There's enough to deal with when it comes to day-to-day survival, and most of the ex-slave farmers really don't care about legal claims tied to 3000-year-old bloodlines or what happened in Umbar. Plus there are plenty of people in Nurn who are wary of Gondor as an expanding power.

Dealing with Gondorians has made her much more inclined to speak up and share her opinions, especially with the prospect of expanding Gondorian influence in Nurn. While I imagine Gondor sees Nurn as a protectorate/part of their sphere of influence, Aragorn and Faramir wanted to let the people rule themselves and only step in to protect them from outside threats rather than treat them as a subordinate power.

As far as Arphazel's name goes, I imagine it raises a few eyebrows but doesn't compare to things like listing what ranks her parents held in Sauron's service as part of her family history.
 
Do we know how strong/diluted her numenorean blood is? How tall and long living will she be? Does she even know herself?
Numenoreans' longevity, wisdom, and other gifts were not in the blood, but in the spirit. Arphazel will likely not live much past 100 if she maintains her bad attitude.

But who wants to live forever, anyway?
 
Eh, the Bree-land probably doesn't feel much less conquered than Nurn, having to pay tax to Annuminas without even the special protections the Shire got.
You also have to consider the increased traffic that the re-establishment of Arnor would bring though. Bree is on the road between Tharbad and Fornost. Considering the Ban, it's on the road to Annuminas too. The troubles that started after the rangers left has also shown Bree that they've coasted on by with the protection of the rangers for... a really long time. I think they'd grouse about paying taxes, but they'd view it broadly positively other than that. Butterbur is probably a good source for how Breelanders see things. They're probably still not over Strider being king.

That and Arphazel has a really warped view of 'conquest.' She said Aragorn conquered Gondor because his army was inside of Minas Tirith. I'm sure that Nurn didn't get the exact picture of how the Battle of the Pelennor went down, but describing it as conquest... really stretches things.

Tolkien only mentions Aragorn traveling north seventeen years after coronation. He made the Thain, Mayor, and Master of Buckland councilors of Arnor two years before that (and five years from now), so it could just be that work hadn't started in earnest yet. I'm curious if Tolkien meant to imply that had been his first visit to Eriador since the War of the Ring.

Tolkien was a lot more interested in characters and themes than all the nitty-gritty details of rulership. He didn't want to dive into the logistical details of how Aragorn would rebuild Arnor, or what his tax policy would be. Aragorn was the good and rightful king, so of course everything would go well for Gondor and they would be able to rebuild Arnor and return to their glory days.

As far as Arphazel's name goes, I imagine it raises a few eyebrows but doesn't compare to things like listing what ranks her parents held in Sauron's service as part of her family history.
Tolkien was definitely more interested in the themes and his desire to have a mostly empty land. I don't really fault him for it, but it can be rather silly if you poke it too hard.

Part of it too is that lot of the people most inclined to pick fights about Gondor were probably Gondorians, and had returned to Gondor after being freed by Aragorn. Most of the people who stayed probaly hadn't known a homeland other than Nurn for generations, or were from nations traditionally opposed to Gondor.

I thought of Arphazel's attitude later. A lot of the things she says would definite take up a lot of mental bandwith!
 
That and Arphazel has a really warped view of 'conquest.' She said Aragorn conquered Gondor because his army was inside of Minas Tirith. I'm sure that Nurn didn't get the exact picture of how the Battle of the Pelennor went down, but describing it as conquest... really stretches things.

Oh yes. The most one could really say on the 'conquest' point is that Aragorn's participation in Pelennor Fields was a major factor in getting everyone on board with his claim to the throne. Plus Denethor's death and his heir Faramir being badly wounded created a power vacuum that made people open to new leadership.

Arphazel being Arphazel, I could see her being a touch suspicious that Denethor just happened to die at such a convenient time.
 
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That and Arphazel has a really warped view of 'conquest.' She said Aragorn conquered Gondor because his army was inside of Minas Tirith. I'm sure that Nurn didn't get the exact picture of how the Battle of the Pelennor went down, but describing it as conquest... really stretches things.

Oh yes. The most one could really say on the 'conquest' point is that Aragorn's participation in Pelennor Fields was a major factor in getting everyone on board with his claim to the throne. Plus Denethor's death and his heir Faramir being badly wounded created a power vacuum that made people open to new leadership.

Arphazel being Arphazel, I could see her being a touch suspicious that Denethor just happened to die at such a convenient time.

Living on the outskirts of civilization I rather doubt that Arphazel would receive reports in a timely manner and what she does receive would likely be out of date, largely contradictory rumors, and at least at first probably pro Sauron propaganda. Over time the story would resolve and become more consistent but Arphazel's perspective on that would no doubt be "Oh the people working for Aragorn are saying that Aragorn did no wrong? What a surprise!" as she's heavily biased. I would not at all be surprised if some of the early rumors were "Aragorn marched an army into Gondor, taking advantage of both sides weakened forces and killed the regent to seize power!" and she decided that was the truth and anything said to the contrary is pro Aragorn propaganda.
 
[X]Well Earned Loyalty

"The people of Nurn, so recently freed from chains, showed kindness to a child in the wilderness. They showed kindness to a woman of the East who had served Sauron as a soldier. For half my life I have served that woman as my captain; served as page and as soldier in the defense of those who showed me kindness. The people of Nurn did not ask me to spit on the bones of my father or mother, on the ruins of the past. We are a people of cast offs and slaves, and as one more exile while my name means little I do not have to hide it. By order of the Council of Nurn I was sent forth, that some manner of the speech and codes I learned from my parents might see me serve Nurn as an Emissary. So was I bade, so I rode out, and so have I done. I serve the Council, my Captain, and the People of Nurn"

Full credit to legomithras for most of the points made, I tried to put my own words and my own spin on things but I can't claim credit for the original thrust of the argument.
 
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[X] Well Earned Loyalty

I mean, she is correct. Ellessar did conquer Umbar. From her point of view That's bad. And it is debatable-he went and took over another nation. Maybe necessary, but rarely great.

And he did annex lands. Again for someone who lived there, not by historic justice, that's not great.

In general I think Arphazel is right on this one. Aragon is a good person and king-but not perfect. And judging her for the fact her parents served Sauron, or for remembering her home fondly, is unjust
Yeah, like in universe, bear in mind, a lot of the people Sauron and Saruman rallied against Gondor and Rohan got pushed off their lands by them.

The Wild Men in Rohan, I think Rhun/Haradrim got shoved there by Gondor...

Is it any wonder they're a bit unhappy at losing their lands to Gondor, yet again?
 
Living on the outskirts of civilization I rather doubt that Arphazel would receive reports in a timely manner and what she does receive would likely be out of date, largely contradictory rumors, and at least at first probably pro Sauron propaganda. Over time the story would resolve and become more consistent but Arphazel's perspective on that would no doubt be "Oh the people working for Aragorn are saying that Aragorn did no wrong? What a surprise!" as she's heavily biased. I would not at all be surprised if some of the early rumors were "Aragorn marched an army into Gondor, taking advantage of both sides weakened forces and killed the regent to seize power!" and she decided that was the truth and anything said to the contrary is pro Aragorn propaganda.
When Sauron was slain, Arphazel was in Barad-dur. Aragorn would then liberate Nurn and grant it to the former slaves. Gandalf found Arphazel after that and brought her there. The reports Arphazel would have gotten of the Pelennor would have mostly been panicked excuse-making. The inhabitants of Nurn would have learned the events from the Gondorians moving in to liberate them.

Yeah, like in universe, bear in mind, a lot of the people Sauron and Saruman rallied against Gondor and Rohan got pushed off their lands by them.

The Wild Men in Rohan, I think Rhun/Haradrim got shoved there by Gondor...

Is it any wonder they're a bit unhappy at losing their lands to Gondor, yet again?
That was only the Dunlendings. Perhaps if the Balcoth and Wainriders had merged with easterlings beyond the Sea of Rhun. And mind you, Rhovanion was historically land held by northmen, who had been driven off by those easterlings. Historically, Gondor is only mentioned to have conquered land in Harad, not displaced people.

The Numenoreans did a lot of that during the Second Age, but by now the Haradrim had long since supplanted the vast majority of remaining Black Numenoreans.
 
That was only the Dunlendings. Perhaps if the Balcoth and Wainriders had merged with easterlings beyond the Sea of Rhun. And mind you, Rhovanion was historically land held by northmen, who had been driven off by those easterlings. Historically, Gondor is only mentioned to have conquered land in Harad, not displaced people.
The Woses were mighty displaced, to marginal lands like the Druedain Forest and Druwaith Iaur (Elessar's reservation of the former being small comfort). And of course the Men of the White Mountains were cursed with deathlessness and fell out of contact with other men (Elessar freeing them of this curse was a rather greater comfort). But it is true that in Gondor's heartlands about the mouths of Anduin and the foothills of the White Mountains (Anorien, Ithilien, Lebennin, Lamedon, Belfalas, etc.) the Numenoreans mostly merged with the native peoples. Just when this occurred is vague, but i place it rather early. Pelargir, Dol Amroth (though not by that name), and Linhir at least were well-established in the Second Age. Isildur and Anarion were able to raise three great cities to Elendil's two, and not so nearly out of the way as Annuminas or Fornost were. It is true that Castamir &co. kick up a fuss about mingling the blood of the elites with the Northmen fairly well into Gondor's history, so one could argue the process was not complete til after the Kin-Strife, but Castamir and his party are supposed to be wrong and I like the touch of irony that being wrong about the history brings to their general wrongness.

Anyway, I know a bandwagon when I see it.

[X]Well Earned Loyalty
 
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Another couple points to bring up-

The Orcs are starting to organize. Either Aragorn and his ilk fight the Orcs now, when they're disorganized, or he waits and we're stuck with the first orc Warboss.

Isn't it rather odd that on a journey with the heir to Gondor's steward, he dies mysteriously, away from Aragorn who just happens to arrive in time to overhear his request to 'save Gondor', and then the only ones who say Denethor went mental were the wizard who we know is tricky, a Hobbit, and one of the Guards?
 
Another couple points to bring up-

The Orcs are starting to organize. Either Aragorn and his ilk fight the Orcs now, when they're disorganized, or he waits and we're stuck with the first orc Warboss.

Isn't it rather odd that on a journey with the heir to Gondor's steward, he dies mysteriously, away from Aragorn who just happens to arrive in time to overhear his request to 'save Gondor', and then the only ones who say Denethor went mental were the wizard who we know is tricky, a Hobbit, and one of the Guards?
Notably, Beregond is an attainted oathbreaker and murderer who is technically in exile in Ithilien (even if it is the fate he prefers and in service to a lord whom he loves). His word is no good before any sort of tribunal.

Shame we didn't get to talk to him during our visit. He's cool.

Gandalf is impossible to subpoena for testimony any more. And subpoenaing Peregrin would be difficult not only because of the distance but also because of the ban on Big Folk entering the Shire to serve process. A Shirriff could be deputized to do it from one of the border checkpoints, but they might "accidentally" lose the papers. Or Peregrin might be immune from subpoena as the Thain or his heir.
 
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Notably, Beregond is an attained oathbreaker and murderer who is technically in Exile in Ithilien (even if it is the fate he prefers and in service to a lord whom he loves). His word is no good before any sort of tribunal.
Also that, yes.

So it's very coincidental how the only witness to it who is around and not attained, is the Wizard. Who we know loves trickery and may have even set this entire thing up from the start.
 
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