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I was clarifying in-character information. Whether you want to believe anything The Ebon Knight is telling Arphazel is another matter.
Relics of the Third Age: A Lord of the Rings Quest
- Thread starter Chengar Qordath
- Start date
- Fantasy
I was clarifying in-character information. Whether you want to believe anything The Ebon Knight is telling Arphazel is another matter.
- Location
- USA
Respectfully we already recruited a magic sword spirit to be our mentor figure until he messes up. He is fully aware we will destroy him if he messes around. We have the relic so if we aren't gonna use it we might as well throw both into a volcano given the sword should also be corruptive by that stance.
And as we have discussed before MOST of the things we are gonna find laying around probably aren't gonna be from the good guy team. I view this more as repurposing tools that were used for bad for something good. Additionally Gandalf uses Magic to impress upon others his point.... all the time? He wears on of the rings throughout pretty much the entire main trilogy.
So if he can take the ring explicitly targeted at affecting the spirits of others and wear it guilt free I don't see why us convincing farmers to not die in piecemeal warfare against Orcs is less ethical? His job was human manipulator after all. Polite, but still manipulative.
I would say he just has to wait long enough for us to be corrupted much like how Sméagol, the dwarves, and the humans were by their rings.
Additional I guess this is where our points of view diverge. We are wearing something created by the representation of evil/the devil (not sure if Tolkien intended Sauron or Morgoth to be the devil). I don't think we can use what he's created for good anymore than any of the nine human kings or seven dwarves kings were able to.
Gandalf's ring is an elven ring which were unique in the fact that Sauron didn't know they were made and thus never corrupted them. It's telling that he never once tries to wear the One Ring given how much potential good he could have done with such power.
Basically, I don't think we'll be able to avoid what happened to the 9 kings from happening to us and have always desired that we yeet both the sword and the ring into Mt. Doom post haste.
Gandalfs ring only evokes hope and courage in others and can't mess with someone's opinion. We see Theodin ignore Gandalfs advice about riding out to fight after being freed from Wormtail and Gandalf doesn't/or can't mind wammy him there.
Regardless, I personally have never been a fan of messing with people's minds/emotions for good or for ill. This one time we might say that it's for their own good. But how many more times will we continue to make people see things our way under the idea that it's for their own good? Until we just straight up start mind controlling them because we know best. Ebon is going to keep forcing us to make these choices and there's never going to be a good time to stop.
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- Location
- USA
Theres no long a dark lord at the other end with a ring pulling you inexorably to corruption though? And the Elven Rings *were* affected. The users stopped using the rings once they realized Sauron was still active. So they are not beyond his touch, simply further away.
In this situation though He is gone. And ye Gandalf is ethical in that he only uses his ring to bolster the spirits of others and himself... kinda like what we have as an option here. We will agree to disagree but I enjoy the points you've made adds interesting discourse to the thread
reminder- the 9 weren't actually made by Sauron. they were made by the elves of Eregion as gifts to the great kings of men. They were cursed by Sauron who bound them to the one ring. but they weren't actually made by him, or even planned by him AFAIK.
on another note, making your arguement more compelling isn't necessarily controlling someone's mind. its improving our persuasion ability. its a bit of a fine line, but by the same logic we can say regal clothing and perfume are mind control.
It was my understanding that the rings themselves were created to be corrupting with or without Sauron's interference otherwise.
Though I could be wrong about that.
I think the elven rings didn't have the innate corruption of the other ring since Sauron had no hand making them, but they were still made in the same style as the one ring and therefore while Sauron had the one ring he could control the elven rings - the reason why they and Gandalf only started using them again once the one ring was lost or in friendly hands.
If you are correct that the rings aren't innately corrupting then yeah, I guess it becomes a test of your morals and willpower. For Arphazel and Norn's sake I hope your interpretation is the correct one.
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- Location
- Argentina
[X] Lithlad
[X] Emphasize the Risks of Orcish Attacks
[X] Do Not Use the Ring Under Any Circumstances
(If we cannot convince a group of farmers with sling and no wall that we need to work together with their neighbors for safety towards a bunch of orcs, WITHOUT the ring, we do not deserve to be any kind of diplomat/leader; heck we are asking them to teach the use of a simple tool (sling) and mostly dig holes and make wall to protect themselves amd others)
[X] Emphasize the Risks of Orcish Attacks
[X] Do Not Use the Ring Under Any Circumstances
(If we cannot convince a group of farmers with sling and no wall that we need to work together with their neighbors for safety towards a bunch of orcs, WITHOUT the ring, we do not deserve to be any kind of diplomat/leader; heck we are asking them to teach the use of a simple tool (sling) and mostly dig holes and make wall to protect themselves amd others)
This was my understanding for the creation of the 20 rings. Sauron directly made only one of the 20 rings, the famed "one ring to rule them all," although he assisted in the creation of the nine rings for mortal men and the seven rings for the dwarves. The three rings for the elven-kings were forged alone by Celebrimbor, with knowledge obtained from Sauron.
So in his assistance he corrupted the nine and seven rings and through following his forging techniques the three were bound to the one ring when he wore it.
Even if Ebon is telling the truth. Which I doubt. He does say it is possible for the ring to directly control others which is why I'm afraid of the slippery slope. I'm not sure if we can withstand the desire to use it when future hard decisions arise.
true, which is why I don't wanna use the ring lightly, but I think Arphazel will have to grow to withstand such temptation, with the corruption gone. we don't really have a choice, as we made our decision to keep the sword and ring
Yeah, we really built her to be a fighter more than a Diplomat (and honestly I wished we put at least one point in Willpower).
-[X] Sea of Nurnen
-[X] Appeal to People's Sense of Community and Patriotism
-[X] Do Not Use the Ring Under Any Circumstances
We're really leaning in to being bad at the things we do most. Which is fun, but we should still probably use the skills we actually put points in.
-[X] Appeal to People's Sense of Community and Patriotism
-[X] Do Not Use the Ring Under Any Circumstances
We're really leaning in to being bad at the things we do most. Which is fun, but we should still probably use the skills we actually put points in.
Vote closed
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That's my conclusion as well. Looks like the auto-tallier made a bit of a mess of things, but the winner's pretty clear.
There's a drop down menu which lets you tally by block or by line. Going by line makes it much clearer as you can ignore the plan names and count check the actual votes.
Alliances 4
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A Peaceful Village by the Shore
Luck Roll: 2d6: (4+2)+0 = 6
The journey to the Nurnen Sea passed without incident. I didn't expect to have any trouble from the Orcs this deep into Nurn's heartland, but letting myself get too complacent could've ended badly. To reach the seaside communities, the Orcs would have to go past so many other communities ripe for the taking. The people of Nurn's interior were safe, though that safety came at the cost of other communities being on the front lines of the conflict with the Orcs.
That would be the crux of the issue with the upcoming discussions. Many of the people here had enjoyed years of relative peace and prosperity, with their years under the whips of Orcish slavemasters a distant memory. Likewise, the stories of frontier villages suffering from Orc raids were simply that; stories. Not that the heartlanders were callous or unsympathetic to the suffering of their countrymen, but they didn't understand the true reality of the threat. A few tales of Orcs robbing granaries or isolated farmsteads elicited sympathy and promises of aid, but not the sort of mass mobilization we truly needed to face this threat.
That was where I entered the picture. I would have to convince them that we needed more. A king could've just given the order and roused the people to action, but that was not the way of Nurn. I consoled myself with the certainty that Men who came to our aid willingly would fight twice as hard as conscripts pressed into service by royal command.
Was using royal authority to compel my people to war that different from using whatever power lingered within my Ring on them? In either case, it was using a superior force to press my will upon others and leave them with no means of refusal. The Ring was more insidious, but the end result would be the same in either case.
Yes, they needed to take action for Nurn's collective security, but could I truly fault them for their complacency? These were not selfish monsters growing fat off the labor and perils of others. Almost everyone in Nurn was a former slave, aside from the rare deserters like Captain Tigkiz or oddities like myself. These people had finally found peace after years of servitude, of course they would cling to that illusion as long as they could.
We will tear their illusions away, Ebon declared as they studied the village through my eyes. They think they have earned their peace after all their suffering, but that has never been the way of the world. Suffering creates weakness, and nothing draws in the world's predators more than weakened prey.
I sighed and ran a hand down my face. "Do you have to sound so happy about innocent people suffering and dying?"
Do you think I enjoy this? The Ebon Knight scoffed within my mind. I take no pleasure in such things, but what would it avail us to wail and gnash our teeth at the unfairness of the world? If there was any true justice to be had, you and everyone else here would have grown up in a prosperous Numenorean kingdom ruled over by my descendants. The world is a cruel place, quick to reward strength and unforgiving of weakness. I learned that lesson for thousands of years as I served Sauron. It remains so regardless of my wishes on the matter.
"You're wrong." I stepped over the last of the hills between us and the village of Túnincel, where we'd agreed to meet the leaders of several seaside villages. "The world's not perfect, but it can still be beautiful."
Túnincel wasn't some lovely picturesque village by the sea. The people here might be a touch sheltered compared to the outlying communities, but they'd all been slaves a mere decade ago. It was a village of farmers and fishers, not some grand edifice like Minas Morgul or Barad Dur with towers stretching up to the heavens and mighty walls that could hold off armies. Nobody storytellers would spread tales of glorious Túnincel, travelers would never stop here to marvel at the incredible sights before them.
And yet it was still beautiful. Some might think these simple thatched homes and the ordinary farmers and fishers who lived in them were nothing special, but I didn't see it that way. I looked at the men and women tending to their chores while children ran through the streets laughing as they played some imagined game together, and I saw something precious. Something worth fighting to protect.
The Ebon Knight was silent for some time before they finally answered my thoughts. Impressive. I had no idea there was such a romantic streak in you. Is there the soul of a poet hidden somewhere within your warrior's heart?
I rolled my eyes. "I'd rather be that than someone who says there's nothing more to life than misery, suffering, and the strong dominating the weak. You've said working with you will help me become stronger, right? Then I'll use that power to change the world. We'll get rid of the Orcs, secure Nurn's borders, and make it a happy, prosperous, and free kingdom. If I can't do that, what's the point of working with you?"
You are an ambitious one, aren't you? Ebon concluded, and I could almost hear a smile in the wraith's rasping voice. Well, at least you know what you want. Very well, let us see what the people of Túnincel have to offer us.
Túnincel's town hall probably would've impressed me if I hadn't so recently been to the estate of a prince of Gondor. Hamfæreld's was bigger and made completely of stone, but that had been a storehouse before Nurn's people reclaimed it. Almost every building in Túnincel was new, even if that meant it was all wood and thatch. It felt heartening to know that we could do more than just reclaim old ruins. We could build something new in Nurn with nothing but our own strength.
Inside the town hall, I found something that more resembled a public house than a council meeting room. Instead of a large open chamber with a single central table, there were a dozen tables of varying size and quality. Perhaps it looked like a public house because it was one: the town probably didn't need to hold meetings like this every day. It only made sense to use the space for something else whenever they weren't gathering village leaders together to discuss an ongoing crisis.
There were a dozen people gathered around the largest table, and as soon as one of them spotted me they raised a hand to wave me over. "Arphazêl, good to see you again."
"Likewise." I took one of the offered seats, looking over the assembled crowd. Most of the faces here were familiar from my years serving as the secretary for Nurn's High Council. Half of them were nothing more than a familiar face and a vague memory of seeing them at meetings, but that was better than speaking to total strangers. "I wish I had come here in better times."
"Is it truly so dire?" I was a bit surprised to hear the voice of a woman who sounded close to me in age. Normally the villages preferred to send elders as their representatives to these meetings. She must have picked up on my unspoken question because she introduced herself. "Shadufled, daughter of Sewine. My father took ill and asked that I attend the meeting in his place. Now, I ask again, are things so dire? My understanding is that you brought back aid from Gondor. That should be the end of the Orc problem on the frontier."
"Gondor sent a single platoon of their Rangers," I answered her, pausing for a moment as someone set a mug of beer and freshly cooked fish down in front of me. I certainly wouldn't complain about the opportunity to enjoy a hot meal and a cold drink, even if I wanted to finish making my point first. "They will do what they can to help, but that's not a large enough force to secure our borders. They're going to help us find any nearby Orc nests, and then build forts to protect against any future attacks."
"That sounds excessive for few Orcish bandits." Shadufled scoffed and sipped her own mug. "I understand that we don't want to let Orcs start running wild across Nurn, but building up fortifications raises questions. Who will build and maintain these forts? Who will garrison them? How long will all of our people need to be away from their homes, boats or crops, and families for this?" Her eyes flicked over to me. "We'd need a standing army to make that plan work. I suppose you think your captain Tigkiz should be in charge of it?"
I scowled at her. "She's the most experienced commander we have."
"She fought for Sauron," Shadufled shot back. "Now she says we need to give her an army to protect us from the Orcs. No doubt you're here to ask us for contributions to offset the cost of building and maintaining her forts, and volunteers to help with both construction and manning the defenses. Once the Orcs are gone, the forts will still be there, right? Because we need to maintain a constant watch on our borders in case the Orcs come back. If we refuse to continue making these voluntary contributions, how long will it be before she stops asking us nicely and starts demanding? Or just sending her soldiers to force the issue."
Arphazêl Charisma (2) + Intimidation (0) + Silvertongue (1)
3d6: (2, 4, 1)
Total: 0 Successes vs Target Number 2
3d6: (2, 4, 1)
Total: 0 Successes vs Target Number 2
I scowled at the other woman. "Captain Tigkiz wouldn't do that, and you underestimate the Orcish threat. A platoon of Rangers isn't going to clear out all the Orcs of Mordor. Even if we kill the ones currently attacking us, more of them will come to raid our fields and kill our people if we don't build defenses. Your villages are safe for now because the Orcs are content to attack the frontiers, but once our people have been robbed of their freedom and fortunes the Orcs will come for you."
"You exaggerate," Shadufled shot back. "Unless matters have grown worse since I last heard, there's been nothing worse than a few granaries raided and farmers frightened. We're happy to share what we can spare to help other villages and send a few of our young men to help your militias, but you're proposing something bigger than that."
"It might not be bad yet, but the Orcs are growing bolder," I pointed out. "Every time they steal from a frontier village without any response, it convinces them that they can take more next time. Can we afford to wait until they're actively conquering villages and putting the inhabitants back into chains to take action?"
"You see a few drops of rain and demand we stop everything and throw aside our traditions to prepare to face a flood," the infuriatingly stubborn woman shot back.
Ugh, why is she being so utterly insufferable? I groaned within the privacy of my mind.
A young woman sent to stand in for her father at an important meeting, Ebon mused. She has a lot to prove. She wants to take charge so nobody else will doubt her right to be a part of the conversation. Ebon's voice shifted to musing. The others are probably letting her take the lead for now because she's young and confrontational. If she embarrasses herself, they can write it off as an impetuous youth who's trying too hard. If you can't answer her objections ... well, that says a lot about the weakness of your case. Many of them probably agree with her.
I cleared my throat and got back to the other conversation. "To use your metaphor, if we wait until the flood comes it will be too late to start building a boat. Once the Orcs start killing people will you say, 'It's only one farmer, we shouldn't raise the alarm.' Building walls and training soldiers takes time. We must start preparing now if we want to prevent a larger tragedy."
"If everything you say is accurate," Shadufled shot back. "It might be that these Orcs will be scared off and cleared out by the rangers, or that they'll start killing each other again before they become a larger problem for us." She held up a hand to cut me off. "Let me be clear, we will help our neighbors to the north. The people of Nurn will always stand together. I just don't want to ask our people to uproot their lives and throw aside traditions without good reason. Do you have any proof that we're on the verge of a major Orcish invasion?"
I hesitated for a moment as I tried to find a convincing argument, only to realize I'd lost. I couldn't come up with anything that felt ironclad enough to convince everyone and a weak argument was worse than none. I didn't think any of them would be convinced by reiterating the need for caution in the face of a potential threat. What should I do?
Plead exhaustion and ask to speak with them on the morrow, Ebon suggested. It will buy time to regroup and make a stronger case.
I couldn't think of a better plan, so I cleared my throat. "If you'll forgive me, I've had a long journey from Hamfæreld, and I wasn't prepared to face such a sharp debate as soon as I sat down. Would anyone mind terribly if I enjoyed my dinner before it gets too cold, got a good night's rest in a proper bed, and we resumed this discussion in the morning?"
The elders exchanged looks and nodded along, throwing a cautioning glance Shadufled's way before one of the old men spoke. "Of course not, Arphazêl. I apologize, we hadn't intended to subject you to an interrogation the instant you sat down."
From the looks being exchanged around the table I knew the apology wasn't completely genuine. They were going to let me get away from the discussion for now to regroup, but everyone had taken note of the fact that I'd lost the first round. If I didn't give a strong showing tomorrow, it would probably go badly for me.
While I started in on my (admittedly delicious) fish, my mind was already hard at work planning. How do we recover from this? I'll need to have a solid answer for why we need to go all-out on our preparations. Something bigger than 'the Orc threat might escalate.' You'd think that would be enough, but so far they seem determined to focus on the 'might' part of that sentence.
You could always use the ring, Ebon pointed out. Before I could remind them that I'd already rejected that, they continued on. You could also use the fact that there will be an entire evening before the next meeting to seek some of them out in private. As a council, they speak with a single unified voice and must observe a certain level of decorum. In private, you can have a very different sort of conversation.
Who would I talk to? I frowned as I chewed my fish, studying the table. The only member of the group who'd really stood out was... Shadufled? You said she probably went on the attack to try to prove herself in front of all the elders on the Council. Maybe once we're in private we could have a calmer, more reasonable talk. Winning over your harshest, most outspoken critic is a good way to make everyone else think you've made a good point. Though that rather begs the question of how I would get her on my side.
You could always try seducing her, Ebon jested.
I scoffed and was almost in danger of choking on my fish before I washed it down with some beer. Of their own accord, my eyes flicked over to the other woman. Her dark hair drawn into a simple no-nonsense braid and skin darkened by many hours working out in the sun did have a certain appeal to it. Not that I was likely to be able to win her over. Perhaps a more serious suggestion, if you actually want to help?
I can see several lines of attack, Ebon answered. Appealing to her pride is always an option, as is her thirst to prove herself. She also might reveal some new aspect we haven't seen yet once you meet with her in public. And, of course, there is always a meeting with the older, calmer heads. Or threatening to do so if the meeting doesn't go your way. The prospect of being cut out of the conversation could make her panic and compromise.
I suppose I could also try telling them about the trouble we had on the way to Minas Morgul, I pointed out. I think they overestimate the impact of Tirndis's rangers. If we let them know that the Orcs aren't afraid of a few Gondorians, that could sway them. And I suppose it wouldn't be a lie to say that some of Sauron's legacy and magic remains active.
Clever. The Nazgul chuckled in my ear. There is no need to settle our approach yet, though. We have time to make a decision. For now, enjoy your meal and get your bearings.
What Does Arphazêl Do?
[ ] Meet with Shadufled at Night
- [ ] Appeal to her Pride and Hunger to Prove Herself
- [ ] Threaten to Cut Her Out of the Next Meeting
- [ ] Try to Establish a Rapport and Get to Know Her
- [ ] Maybe Trying Seduction Isn't That Crazy After All...
- [ ] Write-in
[ ] Meet with the Elders at Night
- [ ] Mention the Orc Attack Outside Minas Morgul
- [ ] Discuss the Possibility of Dark Magic
- [ ] Write-in
[ ] Meet with the Full Council in the Morning
- [ ] Mention the Orc Attack Outside Minas Morgul
- [ ] Discuss the Possibility of Dark Magic
- [ ] Write-in
[X] Meet with Shadufled at Night
- [X] Try to Establish a Rapport and Get to Know Her
[X] Meet with the Full Council in the Morning
- [X] Mention the Orc Attack Outside Minas Morgul
I assume we can do both one night action and the meeting in the morning?
I don't think Arphazel will have any more luck with seduction than she does with diplomacy, but if we can build some rapport and focus on the facts w may get away with something.
- [X] Try to Establish a Rapport and Get to Know Her
[X] Meet with the Full Council in the Morning
- [X] Mention the Orc Attack Outside Minas Morgul
I assume we can do both one night action and the meeting in the morning?
I don't think Arphazel will have any more luck with seduction than she does with diplomacy, but if we can build some rapport and focus on the facts w may get away with something.
Not "picturesque village by the sea" but uses an ai picture tuned for faux picture like realism. 😆
Túnincel wasn't some lovely picturesque village by the sea.
our sole investment into diplomacy didn't help us in Gondor and certainly won't here in the hinterlands.
[X] Meet with Shadufled at Night
- [X] Try to Establish a Rapport and Get to Know Her
[X] Meet with the Full Council in the Morning
- [X] Mention the Orc Attack Outside Minas Morgul
I honestly think the mistake is that we have no suitable accomplishments to back our diplomacy. We need to go prestigeMaaxing
[X] Meet with Shadufled at Night
- [X] Try to Establish a Rapport and Get to Know Her
[X] Meet with the Full Council in the Morning
- [X] Mention the Orc Attack Outside Minas Morgul
I honestly think the mistake is that we have no suitable accomplishments to back our diplomacy. We need to go prestigeMaaxing
[X] Meet with Shadufled at Night
- [X] Try to Establish a Rapport and Get to Know Her
[X] Meet with the Full Council in the Morning
- [X] Mention the Orc Attack Outside Minas Morgul
I was wondering why we keep failing our diplo rolls given we're the designated diplomat. And then I realized we have a 2 in Charisma and a 0 in Diplo with only a +1 bonus for working in Nurns interest currently active.
- [X] Try to Establish a Rapport and Get to Know Her
[X] Meet with the Full Council in the Morning
- [X] Mention the Orc Attack Outside Minas Morgul
I was wondering why we keep failing our diplo rolls given we're the designated diplomat. And then I realized we have a 2 in Charisma and a 0 in Diplo with only a +1 bonus for working in Nurns interest currently active.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[X] Meet with Shadufled at Night
- [X] Try to Establish a Rapport and Get to Know Her
- [X] Use the power of the ring to make you ever slightly more charismatic, more charming to try and convince Shadufled to join our side
- [JK] Only seduce her once she seems to be fully on our side
[X] Meet with the Full Council in the Morning
- [X] Mention the Orc Attack Outside Minas Morgul
- [X] Use the power of the ring to make you ever slightly more charismatic, more able to verbally paint the picture of the attack and the difficulty even the Gondorian Rangers had in fighting
We need to use the ring. We are not built for diplomacy, the ring can help offset that. If we fail here, convincing the other areas to send help is going to become even harder. I would rather us be "Arphazêl, Defender of Nurn" than "Arphazêl, The Last of Nurn."
- [X] Try to Establish a Rapport and Get to Know Her
- [X] Use the power of the ring to make you ever slightly more charismatic, more charming to try and convince Shadufled to join our side
- [JK] Only seduce her once she seems to be fully on our side
[X] Meet with the Full Council in the Morning
- [X] Mention the Orc Attack Outside Minas Morgul
- [X] Use the power of the ring to make you ever slightly more charismatic, more able to verbally paint the picture of the attack and the difficulty even the Gondorian Rangers had in fighting
We need to use the ring. We are not built for diplomacy, the ring can help offset that. If we fail here, convincing the other areas to send help is going to become even harder. I would rather us be "Arphazêl, Defender of Nurn" than "Arphazêl, The Last of Nurn."
Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Meet with Shadufled at Night
- [X] Try to Establish a Rapport and Get to Know Her
[X] Meet with the Full Council in the Morning
- [X] Mention the Orc Attack Outside Minas Morgul
- [X] Try to Establish a Rapport and Get to Know Her
[X] Meet with the Full Council in the Morning
- [X] Mention the Orc Attack Outside Minas Morgul
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Meet with Shadufled at Night
- [X] Try to Establish a Rapport and Get to Know Her
- [X] Try to Establish a Rapport and Get to Know Her
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Yes, give in to your frustration.
[X] Meet with Shadufled at Night
- [X] Try to Establish a Rapport and Get to Know Her
- [X] Use the power of the ring to make you ever slightly more charismatic, more charming to try and convince Shadufled to join our side
- [JK] Only seduce her once she seems to be fully on our side
[X] Meet with the Full Council in the Morning
- [X] Mention the Orc Attack Outside Minas Morgul
- [X] Use the power of the ring to make you ever slightly more charismatic, more able to verbally paint the picture of the attack and the difficulty even the Gondorian Rangers had in fighting