- Location
- Salem Oregon US
any plan that involves time travel is not a good plan.
Recursive Cultivation (Original Xianxia Cosmology)
- Thread starter PrimalShadow
- Start date
- Worldbuilding
No. In the original design of this setting time shenanigans where permitted, and in fact a common thing to do would be to set up temporal acceleration in your inner world. However, this allowed for a paradox. Imagine it take 1000 years on average for a "skilled cultivator" to have their own Inner World produce a "skilled cultivator" who isn't killed at some point. And imagine any skilled cultivator puts their world under 10x acceleration. That means we will have a stack of 2 skilled cultivators after 1000 years, 3 after 1100 years, 4 after 1110 years, and so. By year 1111 and 1/9 on average, the stack will be infinite. And there is no good way to reason about what happens AFTER that point, because with an infinite stack in any period of time you have infinite stuff happening on lower levels, and everything is just unmanageable.
I am happy for my world to be big, and possibly even arbitrarily large, but I draw the line at it being literally infinite, especially when this infinity is compacted along the time dimension.
Accordingly, Law use doesn't allow for the manipulation of time, by authorial fiat. Time is just one of the functions of the setting that Laws can't shape, similarly to the process of Cultivation and the way Reality/Firmament/Heavens/Grandmist interact and the "meta-rules" which say what different Laws do and how they interact.
Last edited:
Subrosian_Smithy
endless
- Location
- Washington
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
The arrow of time is almost certainly a purely thermodynamic property of a universe, and thus intractably "one-dimensional" and one-directional along a gradient from low entropy to high entropy. So having multiple time/timelike dimensions "just" changes the geometry of space-time without allowing causality violations or time paradoxes proper.
Still potentially setting-breaking tho, obviously.
We Just Write
Blatantly Plural
- Location
- New England
- Pronouns
- Plural
Actually, my scheme would have used a closed timeline curve to fork the Dantian into an absurd number of timelines, these timelines would be invalidated and rendered down to raw Qi as their pasts were altered to make their events impossible, effectively producing a constantly updating 'current timeline' progressing in perpendicular time.
Alternatively, just siphon absurd amounts of Qi from your Dantian's future, then abort the drained timeline and do it all over again.
Sadly, author Fiat bans time travel, so this is off the table.
The Froggy Ninja
The Blade Will Never Die
You did say that people could switch between dantians though, just that it was dangerous and unpleasant. Is that only possible if you made both?
What about the remote control aspect of lichdom?
But then how will authors have their overpowered MCs skip the boring parts?
It's obviously their isekai cheat...
I lied. (In actually, I thought about the metaphysics more later and ended up changing my mind; you can see that the comment was edited a day or two back.
)You normally need a body to be connected to a dantian, because you want to be able to draw energy out from your inner world or vice versa. Also, while part of the nature of Will is being able to cause action at a distance, it is usually a small distance, so you don't see people being able to do manipulations arbitrarily far from their Dantian (which houses their Will).
The same way that Desolate Era among others does it - timeskips.
But hey. Xianxia has a long tradition of powerful cultivators being really really old; this setting just makes it more of a necessity.
Also, technically there is a shortcut. So in theory your spunky 18 year old could end up with a mature Inner World producing lots of Qi and whatnot. It would probably take a cheat to get pulled off successfully, but hey - if there is one thing MCs have plenty of, it is cheats.
We Just Write
Blatantly Plural
- Location
- New England
- Pronouns
- Plural
Presumably, the cheat you have in mind isn't my bullshit time paradox fuckery.
The Froggy Ninja
The Blade Will Never Die
How short range? Like, is it a valid strategy to bury your dantian before a fight so even if your body dies they can't find you?
If I were gonna make a cheat character I'd go for either the ability to physically move things between worlds or the much more reasonable ability to digest Grandmist without expanding Reality, thus cutting out the middleman.
If you bury your dantian, then your Energy Body has no way to draw on any Qi reserves other than what it can store in its meridians, which is only a bit more than what someone at the very first stage of cultivation would have. Will lets you move things at a distance, but that is different from letting you teleport Qi around.
Basically, if you do this, you would in effect be using your Energy Body as a remote technique, in the same way that a fireball might be. Given that an Energy Body is made to facilitate channeling Qi as opposed to storing it, that is not really an efficient way to use said body.
Realistically, in any fight that isn't a quick ambush or the like, you are going to want to be able to draw on your overall Qi supply - and that can only be done with the dantian as a starting point. You can fake it somewhat by storing Qi externally, but it is hard to fake the capacity and size of a World.
Last edited:
The Froggy Ninja
The Blade Will Never Die
Didn't you say that pseudo-dantians were possible? I know they're worse but how much worse?
The primary function of a pseudo-dantian is serving as an anchor for Will to exist, the same way a dantian does, or a physical body does before you form one. It usually also comes with either:
- a storage pre-filled with Qi,
- prebuilt meridians
In the first case, a pseudo-dantian will usually support energy to form a Dantian, or maybe an order of magnitude or two above that just to be safe; that is not a serious amount of power past the early levels of cultivation. To throw out a comparison, a pseudo-dantian is like a full 15-gallon gas tank that you might find in a mid-sized car, whereas a decently developed true dantian is closer to an atomic power plant.
Addemup
DO NOT REDEEM
When a cultivator manifests the Law of Existence externally for the first time (and therefore enters the Foundation Building stage), does anything visibly occur around or nearby the cultivator signifying to him/her that he/she has succeeded?
Or better yet, how does the cultivator know if he/she has succeeded in externally manifesting the Law of Existence in the first place?
Or better yet, how does the cultivator know if he/she has succeeded in externally manifesting the Law of Existence in the first place?
Nope, nothing happens. The universe doesn't throw you a parade with balloon floats and a marching band. Nor do you get a complimentary graduation gown to mark your progress. "Foundation Establishment" is more a catchall term that civilization uses to refer to Cultivator's who don't yet have a Dantian but who can already use Qi to make stuff happen at all.
The Froggy Ninja
The Blade Will Never Die
We know that space fuckery specifically is possible. Is it possible to use space fuckery to keep your dantian inside yourself but if the technique lapses it goes back to where it's supposed to be if it weren't being space fuckered?
Hmm. I thought I hadn't expressed much of an opinion on this; did I mention space fuckery somewhere?
Something like that should be doable, but at that point you might as well take your body along as well.
Which of the following segments do you folks want to see next?
- Ascension
- Doom & Apocalypse
- Worldshape samples (Disk, Cosmos)
- Inner World Building details
Satisfaction
brought it back.
Ascension
The Froggy Ninja
The Blade Will Never Die
Ascension
You mentioned it as a way of accelerating the Qi flow from a damaged Dantian.
Ascension
Ascension the process by which a Cultivator transcends the World that contains them, breaking past Reality and into the Heavens themselves. Some details vary depending on the Cultivator in question and their God, but in essence Ascension has four main steps.
Connection
The first step to ascending is Connection - opening a Law channel between one's Dantian and the Heavens. At this stage, Ascension cannot truly be said to have begun; there is not yet any danger, and it is still possible to back down. In fact, the wise Cultivator will practice this step repeatedly in preparation for truly kicking off their ascension.
This step's requirements are mostly towards Law cultivation. The primary Law used here is the Law of Recursion (aka the Law of Cultivation), acting as the external shell for the Manifestation. As a secondary support, other Law comprehension can be used to "fill" the channel, lending it greater metaphysical weight. Because a channel needs to be a certain length and width to serve its purpose, there are some demands on Energy cultivation in this step as well, but that requirement is pretty minimal considering the standard energy levels of people at this level. That said, it is common for cultivators to fill their ascension channel with far more than the minimum required Qi, for help resisting Tribulation in the Transmission step.
When one is able to create a stable ascension channel of reasonable size, one is considered to have reached the "Ascendancy" stage - a mark of power and prestige, albeit one that far pales in comparison to the rewards of a fully successful Ascension.
Transmission
Once the ascension channel is formed, it can be "activated", making both the surface of one's Dantian and the Heavens permeable to the Cultivator's Will at the points of contact. This is the step of no return; once committed, the Cultivator's Will is inexorably drawn out of the Dantian and up to the Heavens.
This is also the step where Heavenly Tribulation is likely to comes down. The nature of such is determined by the World's Laws and is not a universal constant; in fact, without the explicit introduction of the Tribulation Law by a World's God, Ascension would entirely free of Tribulation.
This step is completed once the entirety of the Cultivator's Will has been severed from their former Dantian, made its way up the channel, and entered the Heavens. At this point, some might argue that the essential processes of Ascension is complete, but as far as the individual Will of the cultivator is concerned, the true trials still lay ahead.
Integration
"Heavenly Assimilation". "Usurping the Heavens". "One With God". "Divine Challenge". This step has many names, which often vary with the culture of a World and the attitude of the ascending Cultivator. However, regardless of name, this step's nature is fundamentally the same: merging one's Will with the Will of the Heavens.
If the Throne is vacant, this step is usually easy; there is nobody to contest the Ascendant, so they need merely absorb whatever sub-sentient Will remnants may be lingering on the throne.
But if the Throne of Heaven is currently claimed by a God, then this means merging with the Will of God. This is a literal merge - the two Wills mix together and produce a being that is part God and part Ascendant. The parts that are preserved in such a merger vary depend on a number of factors, with the foremost being:
I should note that while I've described the merger between God and Ascendant as an equal process, in practice the God usually dominates the Ascendant in Will cultivation, with appropriate consequences for the merger. The rare genius or old monster might be able to dominate and absorb God during their Ascension, but that is the exception rather than the rule. Of course, it is possible to win merely by wanting it enough, which encourages many to try despite the low odds.
Dominion
The final step of Ascension is Dominion. This is when the Merged WIll that emerges from the Integration stage actually claims the metaphorical Throne of Heaven, getting access to the senses and controls of Reality that the Heavens grant. While this is listed as a separate step, it can sometimes overlap with the Integration step, and at the latest starts right after Integration. This is because Integration connects the Ascendant's will with the Will currently holding the Throne, and as the Wills in question merge they are naturally left in contact with the Throne themselves.
For those who merged with a God, this step is usually easy. God will have been holding the Throne of Heaven throughout the Integration process, so Dominion just consisting of patching any deficits that God's Will could have developed as part of joining the Merged Will.
For those who merge with a sub-sentient Will, the process is far harder. Without direct familiarity with the World and its Laws, claiming the Throne of Heaven is extremely straining on the soul. The Merged Will must use it's Law comprehension to familiarize itself with the Throne of Heaven, while using their Will Cultivation to resist ego-death. If successful, the Merged Will emerges as a God of the World; if not, it is torn apart into sub-sentient fragments, suitable only to decorate the Throne in wait of the next Ascendant.
Connection
The first step to ascending is Connection - opening a Law channel between one's Dantian and the Heavens. At this stage, Ascension cannot truly be said to have begun; there is not yet any danger, and it is still possible to back down. In fact, the wise Cultivator will practice this step repeatedly in preparation for truly kicking off their ascension.
This step's requirements are mostly towards Law cultivation. The primary Law used here is the Law of Recursion (aka the Law of Cultivation), acting as the external shell for the Manifestation. As a secondary support, other Law comprehension can be used to "fill" the channel, lending it greater metaphysical weight. Because a channel needs to be a certain length and width to serve its purpose, there are some demands on Energy cultivation in this step as well, but that requirement is pretty minimal considering the standard energy levels of people at this level. That said, it is common for cultivators to fill their ascension channel with far more than the minimum required Qi, for help resisting Tribulation in the Transmission step.
When one is able to create a stable ascension channel of reasonable size, one is considered to have reached the "Ascendancy" stage - a mark of power and prestige, albeit one that far pales in comparison to the rewards of a fully successful Ascension.
Transmission
Once the ascension channel is formed, it can be "activated", making both the surface of one's Dantian and the Heavens permeable to the Cultivator's Will at the points of contact. This is the step of no return; once committed, the Cultivator's Will is inexorably drawn out of the Dantian and up to the Heavens.
This is also the step where Heavenly Tribulation is likely to comes down. The nature of such is determined by the World's Laws and is not a universal constant; in fact, without the explicit introduction of the Tribulation Law by a World's God, Ascension would entirely free of Tribulation.
This step is completed once the entirety of the Cultivator's Will has been severed from their former Dantian, made its way up the channel, and entered the Heavens. At this point, some might argue that the essential processes of Ascension is complete, but as far as the individual Will of the cultivator is concerned, the true trials still lay ahead.
Integration
"Heavenly Assimilation". "Usurping the Heavens". "One With God". "Divine Challenge". This step has many names, which often vary with the culture of a World and the attitude of the ascending Cultivator. However, regardless of name, this step's nature is fundamentally the same: merging one's Will with the Will of the Heavens.
If the Throne is vacant, this step is usually easy; there is nobody to contest the Ascendant, so they need merely absorb whatever sub-sentient Will remnants may be lingering on the throne.
But if the Throne of Heaven is currently claimed by a God, then this means merging with the Will of God. This is a literal merge - the two Wills mix together and produce a being that is part God and part Ascendant. The parts that are preserved in such a merger vary depend on a number of factors, with the foremost being:
- The strength with which specific ideals, beliefs, and desires are held
- The total "quantity" of Will that both parties possess (i.e. Will cultivation)
- Whether the two Wills approach the merger in an amicable or adversarial fashion
- It should be noted that Law and Energy cultivation play NO role in the face-off over the Throne of Heaven. Integration is purely a contest of Self, fought over a domain in which neither Laws nor Qi exist
I should note that while I've described the merger between God and Ascendant as an equal process, in practice the God usually dominates the Ascendant in Will cultivation, with appropriate consequences for the merger. The rare genius or old monster might be able to dominate and absorb God during their Ascension, but that is the exception rather than the rule. Of course, it is possible to win merely by wanting it enough, which encourages many to try despite the low odds.
Dominion
The final step of Ascension is Dominion. This is when the Merged WIll that emerges from the Integration stage actually claims the metaphorical Throne of Heaven, getting access to the senses and controls of Reality that the Heavens grant. While this is listed as a separate step, it can sometimes overlap with the Integration step, and at the latest starts right after Integration. This is because Integration connects the Ascendant's will with the Will currently holding the Throne, and as the Wills in question merge they are naturally left in contact with the Throne themselves.
For those who merged with a God, this step is usually easy. God will have been holding the Throne of Heaven throughout the Integration process, so Dominion just consisting of patching any deficits that God's Will could have developed as part of joining the Merged Will.
For those who merge with a sub-sentient Will, the process is far harder. Without direct familiarity with the World and its Laws, claiming the Throne of Heaven is extremely straining on the soul. The Merged Will must use it's Law comprehension to familiarize itself with the Throne of Heaven, while using their Will Cultivation to resist ego-death. If successful, the Merged Will emerges as a God of the World; if not, it is torn apart into sub-sentient fragments, suitable only to decorate the Throne in wait of the next Ascendant.
Last edited:
- Location
- PA
Uh-oh.
I had been thinking that a God-tier Cultivator could achieve that point, and then 'squat' so to speak, in the realm they're in, instead of ascension basically sticking them on the Throne and forcing them to use Heaven's Laws to interact with the world beneath them.
Then again I had ALSO been thinking a Cultivator could travel up and down 'realms' via ascending past the Throne instead of directly contesting it. Which suddenly makes me think that Nested Cultivator shenanigans are much more limited then I might have thought initially.
I had been thinking that a God-tier Cultivator could achieve that point, and then 'squat' so to speak, in the realm they're in, instead of ascension basically sticking them on the Throne and forcing them to use Heaven's Laws to interact with the world beneath them.
Then again I had ALSO been thinking a Cultivator could travel up and down 'realms' via ascending past the Throne instead of directly contesting it. Which suddenly makes me think that Nested Cultivator shenanigans are much more limited then I might have thought initially.
It is not rare for a cultivators to just not Ascend. There are often motivation systems in play to get people Ascending, but that doesn't work on everyone and even if it did such systems aren't omnipresent. So it is perfectly reasonable to find a God who ISN'T desperately trying to climb the world ladder, and is just playing farmville with their little world. Or playing Spore, if they are good enough and keep at it for long enough.