Voting is open
according to the warhammer fantasy map it should not be possible without ships for a army to come from the wastes unless the frozen sea is literally frozen over and they can walk into norsca
What happens is a tribe just butchers everyone who can't fight well enough, uses them for provisions, and uses their bone and hide to make ensorcelled boats to cross the Frozen Sea. Then they arrive with plenty of supplies and equipment for fighting and settling their new land!
 
Elgi taking political power in the Empire? That's a Grudgin'.
We wouldn't be staying, of course. After the emperor gets elected, we just give the runefang back and totter off.
Take over a smithy and leave the poor smith with a few magic weapons.

By the time the throng arrives to remove the Elgi from power, we'll be in the Athel Loren, or something.

By the time we return to Ulthuan, we'll be known as Luthien Farstrider, or something
 
What happens is a tribe just butchers everyone who can't fight well enough, uses them for provisions, and uses their bone and hide to make ensorcelled boats to cross the Frozen Sea. Then they arrive with plenty of supplies and equipment for fighting and settling their new land!

Chaos Waste Tribes, the Rimworld players of Warhammer Fantasy. :V

We wouldn't be staying, of course. After the emperor gets elected, we just give the runefang back and totter off.
Take over a smithy and leave the poor smith with a few magic weapons.

By the time the throng arrives to remove the Elgi from power, we'll be in the Athel Loren, or something.

By the time we return to Ulthuan, we'll be known as Luthien Farstrider, or something

The throng will then march into Athel Loren to get slaughtered by wood elves and grudge us even harder for not standing still to get killed.
 
Last edited:
The issue is that now there's essentially a permanent state of war in Norsca between the Bjornlings (plus Dwarfs and smaller allied tribes) and everyone that isn't them. Every pass (of which there are many) that could allow the ruinous tribes passage through to Bjornling territory must be sealed and guarded. I wasn't just talking about farms and mines when I talked about land development, I was also talking about the critical need for widespread defenses and monitoring.

And as I mentioned before, the Bjornlings are going to take absolutely massive numbers of thralls from their defeated enemies, many of whom will hate them until their dying breath even as they lack the fanaticism or the courage to actually act upon these feelings if they don't think they'll succeed. You cannot have a massive population of bonded laborers who despise you without also having a lot of warriors at home to keep them from trying to revolt. Some can still be spared to make money off of their combat skills yes, but I don't think it will be a very large number, at least for a decade.

Problem with that is that even that is upgrade from former state of permanent infighting where Bjorlings were one of the many tribes needing to keep eye on all other tribe's wanting to attack them and even then they had time to raid.

Remember that before Luthien in Chaos dominated Norsca we had bunch of warring tribes fighting each other's, Norsca definitely wasn't some peaceful utopia worshipping same Gods and fighting the same enemies. We literally had each tribe fighting other tribe while at the same time followers of one Chaos God would fight followers of other God, unity once achieved was used to attack the south. There were periods of peace , but those periods weren't used for peace between tribes (Ulfar attacked Skaelings in that period as Norscans would rarely be in peace with one another), they were used to trade with Southern powers due to lack of hostility.

Even in otl history when one let's say Germanic tribe, or Steppe tribe would gain influence over others we would see them going outwards, not turning invards.

In case of massive number of Thralls that just means that more Bjorlings will get richer and be able to upgrade themselves to warrior status while also having bunch of Thralls working under them to provide for their new lifestyle. Children from those warriors, or even cousins are set for better violent life which means they will be able to raid and war more, especially when we are speaking about third, to fourth sons that will be left off the glory.


Then there is as always matter of cash, after this war Bjorlings will be in need of it not just to keep their new lands and Thralls under control but also to survive the winter and that cash can be earned outside.

Edit: Another factor that will contribute to Norscans becoming Mercaneries will be their newfound status as civilized people. This basically means that Southern powers will be more comfortable with hiring them without a fear of Chaos corruption as hiring Chaos aligned tribes is frowned upon in civilized world. Now Bjorlings don't have that problem so they could easily get this job.
 
Last edited:
Regardless, Interfering in the politics of the Empire to support the Wolf Emperor is a bad idea, because it opens up a legitimate case of "If the Bjornlings want to interfere with Empire politics, why don't we blatantly try to subjugate them when the opportunity is right!". The Bjornlings want to achieve Kislev status, in the sense that a tacit agreement will form where they become a bulwark for the Empire.

I will be very honest in saying that we should simply wait for a figure like Magnus to unite the Empire once more, a legitimate Sigmarite who knows what's going on. As far as I know, a good majority of the people of the Empire are Sigmarites, not Ulricans (most of them are in Middenland, and so on), and having an Ulrican emperor who blatantly doesn't worships Sigmar wield Ghal Maraz is going to be very messy.
 
Last edited:
We wouldn't be staying, of course. After the emperor gets elected, we just give the runefang back and totter off.
Take over a smithy and leave the poor smith with a few magic weapons.

By the time the throng arrives to remove the Elgi from power, we'll be in the Athel Loren, or something.

By the time we return to Ulthuan, we'll be known as Luthien Farstrider, or something
"Oh, she just took over an Elector Count's vote once, that's alright then."
The throng will then march into Athel Loren to get slaughtered by wood elves and grudge us even harder for not standing still to get killed.
Yeah, that or Laurelorn. Just a bad idea in general really.
Problem with that is that even that us upgrade from former state where Bjorlings were one of the many tribes needing to keep eye on all other tribe's and even then they had time to raid.

Remember that before Luthien in Chaos dominated Norsca we had bunch of warring tribes fighting each other's. Even in otl history when one let's say Germanic tribe would gain influence over others we would see them going outwards, not turning invards.

In case of massive number if Thralls that just means that more Bjorlings will get richer and be able to upgrade themselves to warrior status while also having bunch of Thralls working under them to provide for their new lifestyle. Children from those warriors, or even cousins are set for better life which means they will be able to raid and war more, especially when we are speaking about third, to second sons that will be left off the glory.


Then there is as always matter of cash, after this war Bjorlings will be in need of it not just to keep their new lands and Thralls under control but also to survive the winter and that cash can be earned outside.
The difference is that back then, the Bjornlings not only had far less territory in need of coverage but they were also actually capable of having peace with other tribes for a while. Sure, they'd be having raids from and against other tribes, but it was never a state of affairs that could only be resolved by massacring the other side. Now? They're infidels, apostates, traitors, heretics. There will never be peace between them and the other men of Norsca, and every battle will be a battle to destroy as much of one another as possible.

And yes, many Bjornlings will be rich off their ownership of thralls, but they will also need to use much of that wealth to keep their bitter slaves in line as well as general upkeep. Their children will indeed be able to better afford good weapons and armor, but the enemy tribes will have replenished themselves in that time as well and likely seek to reclaim their former lands piecemeal if they can't have them all in one great war. Second and third sons would likely often (but not always, just to be clear) be working for their elder brother as now the property of their father will have become developed and valuable, and that must be defended.

Personally I think that there will become something of a divide between the coastal Norscans who are more commercial and industrious and the inland Norscans who are more agrarian and martial.

As I said, there will always be mercenary work and raiding, but it will not be as much as it once was, at least not without the population of non-thrall Bjornland rising massively.
 
Last edited:
Regardless, Interfering in the politics of the Empire to support the Wolf Emperor is a bad idea, because it opens up a legitimate case of "If the Bjornlings want to interfere with Empire politics, why don't we blatantly try to subjugate them when the opportunity is right!". The Bjornlings want to achieve Kislev status, in the sense that a tacit agreement will form where they become a bulwark for the Empire.

I will be very honest in saying that we should simply wait for a figure like Magnus to unite the empire once more, a legitimate Sigmarite who knows what's going on. As far as I know, a good majority of the people of the Empire are Sigmarites, not Ulricans (most of them are in Middenland, and so on), and having an Ulrican emperor who blatantly doesn't worships Sigmar wield Ghal Maraz is going to be very messy.

Ah yes, the Empire of Man, a basket case for the last half millennia which had conquered nothing for twice that long is going to launch an external campaign into Norsca of all places. If such an idea ever made it past the drawing board the only question is if the army would starve or freeze to death first.

Edit: Or drown in the Sea of Claws, though that would make the looting harder.
 
Ah yes, the Empire of Man, a basket case for the last half millennia which had conquered nothing for twice that long is going to launch an external campaign into Norsca of all places. If such an idea ever made it past the drawing board the only question is if the army would starve or freeze to death first.

Edit: Or drown in the Sea of Claws, though that would make the looting harder.

Cut it with the sarcasm or I'll disengage from this conversation entirely. I am not in the mood to deal with that sort of behaviour, are we clear?


Now, moving on, I did not mean invasion per say, though what could certainly happen is someone sending a fleet up to say, Skjold, and then conquering or sacking it. No, what I mean is that the Bjornlings will get sucked into Imperial power plays, in the game that Elector Counts play all the time within the Empire. That's going to be very awkward when that inevitably blows up in their face and they have to deal with chaotic incursion number 7.
 
Cut it with the sarcasm or I'll disengage from this conversation entirely. I am not in the mood to deal with that sort of behaviour, are we clear?


Now, moving on, I did not mean invasion per say, though what could certainly happen is someone sending a fleet up to say, Skjold, and then conquering or sacking it. No, what I mean is that the Bjornlings will get sucked into Imperial power plays, in the game that Elector Counts play all the time within the Empire. That's going to be very awkward when that inevitably blows up in their face and they have to deal with chaotic incursion number 7.

If you prefer, personally I do not mind sarcasm in conversations but to each his own

Moving on to the core of your argument, you are making a lot of assumptions here, that it will blow up in their face, that it will do so in such a way as to get in the way of fighting Chaos, that there will ever be a Magnus-like figure and last but not least that the Sigmarites will ever send help to Norsca without first being conquered and having their pretenses of dominance broken.

I do not think any of this is true and for that matter from where Bjronland is standing I think that a united Sigmarite Empire is worse than one in civil war precisely because they might get it into their heads to burn Skjold to the ground.

I mean what does a 'Kislev like position' even mean? Kislev was helped against Chaos once by Magnus, who was a once-in-a-milenia saint. Trying to form the order-tide UN does not make sense from where Bjornland is standing, the high elves and the Karaz Ankor might be able to manage but not a marginal small power. Bjronland's interests lie in making sure that its neighbor to the south is either controlled by a dynasty that is friendly to it or at least that is never unites under a hostile one.
 
Last edited:
The difference is that back then, the Bjornlings not only had far less territory in need of coverage but they were also actually capable of having peace with other tribes for a while. Sure, they'd be having raids from and against other tribes, but it was never a stats of affairs that could only be resolved by massacring the other side. Now? They're infidels, apostates, traitors, heretics. There will never be peace between them and the other men of Norsca, and every battle will be a battle to destroy as much of one another as possible.

That may be true but they also had far less resources on their disposal and while they would be able to have peace with one tribe there would also always be other tribe willing to screw them over. Also this is where we differ, yes Bjornlings will be on blood feud with enemies to the North but after this war if Bjornlings win it Northern tribes won't really be in state to launch another massive assult, i also weary much doubt that Northern tribes will give it their all to destroy Bjornlings from now on opposed to them uniting to launch one big attack from time to time and otherwise just launching minor raids at Bjornlings and other people while infighting.

This is weary much a trend with all evil factions, Druchii for example despite being in blood feud didn't use all their time to attack Asur opposed to them doing raids across the world and then launching massive attacks . Same with Chaos Norsca. In these periods of time Bjornlings will be in quite good state to go out and do their things as these minor raids will hardly be existential threats.

Ultimately after this war Chaos aligned tribes simply won't be in shape to pose significant threat for a time.


And yes, many Bjornlings will be rich off their ownership of thralls, but they will also need to use much of that wealth to keep their bitter slaves in line as well as general upkeep. Their children will indeed be able to better afford good weapons and armor, but the enemy tribes will have replenished themselves in that time as well and likely seek to reclaim their former lands piecemeal if they can't have them all in one great war. Second and third sons would likely often (but not always, just to be clear) be working for their elder brother as now the property of their father will have become developed and valuable, and that must be defended.


Once again i would disagree. Life of a thrall is terrible under any tribes and while elites worship Chaos most of the Thralls are more similar to Bjornling Thralls and these are the ones Bjornlings will be dealing with.

Bjorlings won't just take in Chaos worshipping Warriors and make them Thralls, they'll probably take already existing Thralls and some freemen but otherwise they'll either exile, or kill the rest. If anything Chaos has already started murdering all non Chaos Thralls and Luthien herself said that those civilians she sacrificed would normally be killed for worshipping Ruinous powers. Pair that with the fact that winter is coming and that Bjornlings won't even be able to feed their own population and you can already get the picture what will happen with those Thralls that refuse to accept new regime.

As for property of someone's father being developed and in need of defense? Once again we are in Norsca. They simply don't have climate to have standard feudal system that's reliant on serves working on land and giving part of their yields to the feudal lord. Even with Circles intervention a harsh Winter is still enough to cause famine so before that it's quite likely that Bjornlings will go and do mercenary work and maybe raid those who are considered to be unfriendly to the King and don't pay not to be raided.

Personally I think that there will become something of a divide between the coastal Norscans who are more commercial and industrious and the inland Norscans who are more agrarian and martial.

There is already such divide with Bjornlings being among more trade oriented tribes but Northern Norscans being more agrarian?

Not likely as Northern lands are quite inhospitable, this also means that Bjornlings are set to get better land which will give them the edge over their southern neighborhoods who will likely fight each other's for whatever little land they have while continuing the tradition Northern tribes were doing before, raiding South for resources and these won't be focused just on Bjornlings as Bjornlings will be relatively poor targets.

As I said, there will always be mercenary work and raiding, but it will not be as much as it once was, at least not without the population of non-thrall Bjornland rising massively.

This is where we can agree and disagree. I genuinely agree that we will see more controlled raiding targeting those that don't pay protection and generally enemies of the King, plus Druchii and Chaos aligned tribes being free targets

In case of mercenary work as i said this will probably continue and with Bjornlings being considered civilized it's quite likely that they will be even more wanted on battlefield as now any potential customer doesn't have to worry about being accused of cooperating with Chaos. If anything standard Bjorlings will potentially prefer mercenary work to raiding.

In case of population? With all these new lands that Bjornlings will get you can expect population boom but with population boom being applied on medival laws of succession and general Bjorling culture you can also expect that there will be bunch of second, third, or fourth sons not being in line to inherit anything and they will be quite eager to go out to earn big , or to get some glory which in turn will cause them to go out to do the work Norscans are famous for.

Then once again we must speak about the fact that after this war Winter is set to come in and for many choice will be to either go out to do mercenary work and raid, or to stay and starve as wartorn Bjornlings won't be in state to provide for everyone, land you are speaking about simply won't be usable until after the winter time even with magic and time period used to work in the fields, or to prepare for winter is now used to fight a war.
 
Last edited:
There is already such divide with Bjornlings being among more trade oriented tribes but Northern Norscans being more agrarian?

Not likely as Northern lands are quite inhospitable, this also means that Bjornlings are set to get better land which will give them the edge over their southern neighborhoods who will likely fight each other's for whatever little land they have while continuing the tradition Northern tribes were doing before, raiding South for resources and these won't be focused just on Bjornlings as Bjornlings will be relatively poor targets.
I'm not responding to your overall post because I think that we just plainly won't be able to convince one another since our interpretations differ so much but I do want to clarify on this one.

I said "Norscan" to refer to the lands that would be pulled out of Chaos' hands because after this war is over, with all the new arrivals from all over the Old World, it's not just going to be the Bjornling tribe, but also many allied tribes like the Roppsmenn. Basically the distinction is still with the "Order" side, so to speak. The guys that head north and live in fortified settlements to ready to fight the Graelings and Vargs at a moment's notice compared to the guys that live down south and have easy access to trade with the rest of the Old World.
 
Last edited:
Interlude: A bargain struck. New
Karavox would finish what the Skaeling king could not.

The Bloodthirster swept his gaze across the blasted expanse that had been his citadel before the armies of Khaine, that ever relentless thorn in the side of the Pantheon had swept through it. They had done almost as much damage as Grimnir did during that mad godling's last attack on the realm of Khorne. He pushed a scrap of black armour aside with his clawed foot.

Lesser things scrambled through the remnants of the fortress that had stood here, tiny things born of lesser deeds that flickered and died as they attempted to sustain themselves with the remnants of this battle. He crushed them underfoot as he found a good spot to invoke his rite. He ignored the labourers around him as his citadel rose anew like it had many times.

Skall sulked on his throne.

This was good.

Ka'Bandha had risen highly in favour with almighty Khorne, and if one of his servant had brought the Bjornlings back into the fold of the Pantheon, it would have elevated them greatly. Skall could have become a Daemon Prince, and the two would have secured Ka'Bandha's supremacy within Khorne's bloody court.

Oh how Karavox hated the wretched mortal flicker-things that ascended to Daemonhood. Their minds were so limited, their ambitions still bound by the whims of chronology.

He would not allow that ascension.

Karavox would not allow any other followers of the Dark Gods to impede his triumph.
He would kill the Bjornlings, wipe them out to the last, and rise up from the eighth Host of mighty Khorne.

But with the Skaelings weakened like they were, he would need to change his plans.

Karavox raised a clawed finger into the ground and drew the symbol of Nurgle in the blood of mortals, a symbol just slightly so different in a way that only the greatest of Daemons could comprehend. The blood had been carried through into the Realm of Chaos as a precious currency, exchanged and bartered, passing through the possession of daemon both godsworn and undivided. He lit the blood with a snap of his claws.

Perception expanded, as Karavox perceived both where he projected his thoughts, reaching across the Realm of Chaos, ascending and descending through the layers of false existence and unformed reality.

The dark miracle of the burning blood attracted the attention of the one he sought, and Karavox made contact. The shade of a Great Unclean One reached out for Karavox, cautious of a trap, yet curious as to what had summoned his attention. It examined him.

The Bloodthirster twisted his claws into what a mortal mind might describe as non-euclidean shapes, making the primordial symbols calling on that most ancient of daemonic acts.

Parley.

Karavox invoked the ancient symbols and rituals and provided the expected offerings. The Great Unclean responded with the symbols and rituals of its kind, accepting the offer. Karavox explained his objective, and offered the Daemon of Nurgle a share of the souls reaped, if he would but send down plague and lesser servants to weaken the Bjornlings.

The Great Unclean drove a hard bargain, for Great Nurgle had shown interest in corrupting the Bjornling, not destroying them utterly. But Karavox had played the great game for two times the lifespan of existence, and knew what to offer. And when he explained how this corruption would not elevate the Unclean One, it could not argue against this. Nevertheless, the price was steep. A quarter of the souls of the Bjornlings for the assistance Karavox had bartered for.

The parley concluded and the two daemons parted ways.
 
Last edited:
Fuck! The Bjornlings have enough problems, they don't need a fucking plague! That temple of Shallya is going to be working overtime now.

At least Skall seems to be having a bad time. Is this still about Luthien fucking up his plans at the battle of the crossing? Or did Alfred manage to do well against him? Or... maybe there's trouble with the Sarls that is occupying his attention atm?
 
Hysh, this is going to take Hysh to mitigate which realistically means Luthien next summer. Maybe we can get Reltarin in on it, he should have some affinity with it, but it is pretty much on us to do anything that can be done magically. Of course the greater weight of a plague would strike Skjold just because that is where the peole are. That is also where the Shaylans are, we pretty much have to trust them to do their job. I do not think traveling over there in winter is an option.
 
The Bloodthirster swept his gaze across the blasted expanse that had been his citadel before the armies of Khaine, that ever relentless thorn in the side of the Pantheon had swept through it. They had done almost as much damage as Grimnir did during that mad godling's last attack on the realm of Khorne. He pushed a scrap of black armour aside with his clawed foot.
So looks like Khaine and Karavox hate each other, that's good, means that khaine will be very generous when luthien faces karavox's servants and sends their soul to his furnace.


Also grimnirr mentioned the absolute Madlad.
 
Still…lesser servants. That could be mortals, or daemons. If it's the former they'd still have to travel. If we're lucky it's meant to be a plague carried with some of the scum of the Wastes heading south and not just, popping up in Bjornling civilization.
 
Typical Chaos hijinks, always trying to one up each other in the pursuit of more power.

The Bloodthirster swept his gaze across the blasted expanse that had been his citadel before the armies of Khaine, that ever relentless thorn in the side of the Pantheon had swept through it. They had done almost as much damage as Grimnir did during that mad godling's last attack on the realm of Khorne. He pushed a scrap of black armour aside with his clawed foot.

This is foreshadowing, isn't it? Khaine's favorite magical girl is going to be quite a nuisance to his plans.
 
Last edited:
Voting is open
Back
Top