Guile
Having a really great time right now
Yui: "Ahem."
Yui: "Ahem!"
Alas I have been defeated before I even drew my sword
Puella Magi Imperatrix Mundi, or: Wherein Half Of Japan Tries To Kill You
somewhatLazy
Serial Procrastinator
- Location
- lurking
On another hand, Naoko's personality... leaves much to be desired, to say the least, and as @Axel Fones said, Naoko would utterly hate this. They may be able to keep her from escaping, but no doubt she wouldn't be as combat-effective as she would be if she was willingly aiding someone instead of thinking that she's only stuck with them because of Yui. And in any case, Naoko's toxic behaviors are too ingrained in her to easily change, most likely even if Naoko herself wanted to.
I'm working on memory here, but isn't Chizuka the sort to easily trust? While a skilled healer might be a better deal than a powerful DPS, said DPS actually likes you and isn't constantly insulting everyone.
FelOnyx
Love and Peace!
- Location
- Gunsmoke
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Absolutely! You ever try queuing as a DPS? We're worthless.
PhDEevee
Mathematician and Questgiver
- Location
- Sydney
I think it's a solid opening. I think we need to include some directives on what we're trying to get out of her and what information we're willing to reveal Yui has (just so Echo as something to write about).
@Nevill: I think leasing out territory is a valid move in general, but I'm leery of doing so with a group as large as Honoka's, particularly one we don't have a strong rapport with. Sure, Yui could kick them out if they misbehaved, but she'd have to commit some fairly hefty forces to it.
SolipsistSerpent
Endlessly Devouring
It's work-release for prisoners. That's only quasi-human trafficking and, in fact, we already have done so with another problematic magical girl prisoner, so it's not even crossing any new moral lines.
Naoko is convinced she can get away with her toxic personality because of the value of her healing, she's not going to sandbag there.
- Location
- St. Petersburg
I don't think it's entirely correct?
Just use the Socratic method. They need territory. Why would they agree to a lease instead of invade? Why can't they invade? If they misbehave, what happens to the agreement? If they are in our territory without us agreeing to it, how is that different from an invasion? So, then, if they wouldn't invade, why would they misbehave?
The entire situation doesn't work that way. I don't think we would kick them out until other methods are exhausted, because that would doom the group. And I think they would be tip-toeing around us to prevent just that outcome, unless our demands become unreasonable. We can even influence their core group, to a lesser extent. This is the sort of thing that gets us an in with them, as whatever happens within our territory now impacts all of them.
We also can have a say who gets to be in our territory, as it isn't the entirety of Honoka's group, but a small team of three members or so.
If this offer is less than ideal, it's because of other factors we need to consider... and mostly for their sake. Our own gains from the offer are reasonably solid - which I think Konno may have been counting on.
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PhDEevee
Mathematician and Questgiver
- Location
- Sydney
See, the thing is that there's plenty of motive in the fact that Nagamioka is a great territory and pretty much everyone in Furuhata's group wants to be in charge of something. If the pressure from Tokyo cranks up enough, they might just move fully into the leased territory and expand inwards.
Or they might misbehave. If they know Yui's not going to kick them out they might not attend meetings (which are essential for touching base and maintaining loyalty), hunt outside of areas they're supposed to, and be more aggressive than we would like Yui's foreign policy to be. A full group of that size acting up could easily undermine Yui's leadership, and they don't need a reason other than 'I want to be in charge'.
I'm honestly surprised we haven't yet run into a bunch of Tokyo girls who want to take over the place, but that's probably because the girls who planned Momoko's murder seem to be biding their time.
Oh, any chance of Konno having been involved in Momoko's death, you reckon? Someone picked the spot where Maiko's power couldn't reach with uncanny accuracy.
Reframe the offer into her sending over one or two of the more follower-type girls and placing them under one of our team. Don't make it about territory - remember Yui's speech to her own group re:feudalism being stupid? Make it about them having the right to patrol with us here in exchange for the right to send a (specific) cut of seeds home. We set the patrol routes, which means any issues with who's in charge of Nagamioka are pretty much allayed.
This also would bind the girls who are loaned closer to us, because we'd have someone constantly interacting with them and drawing them in with how much better it is here. I can't emphasize enough that we shouldn't make this into a territory problem, because the entire point of why Chizuka was induced to go over in the first place was to see if she could steal territory in a deniable fashion. Koharu is absolutely right, but at the same time, we should attack from an axis other than straight contradiction to Konno.
I wouldn't want any of the people who are vying for leadership on that team, they all seem the type to try to subvert authority, and more importantly, they're all invested in vying for power over there. Avoid them and we avoid spilling their drama to us. That means basically we want Chizuka and Miyu, who fortunately are the two that Konno suggested sending anyway.
This also would bind the girls who are loaned closer to us, because we'd have someone constantly interacting with them and drawing them in with how much better it is here. I can't emphasize enough that we shouldn't make this into a territory problem, because the entire point of why Chizuka was induced to go over in the first place was to see if she could steal territory in a deniable fashion. Koharu is absolutely right, but at the same time, we should attack from an axis other than straight contradiction to Konno.
I wouldn't want any of the people who are vying for leadership on that team, they all seem the type to try to subvert authority, and more importantly, they're all invested in vying for power over there. Avoid them and we avoid spilling their drama to us. That means basically we want Chizuka and Miyu, who fortunately are the two that Konno suggested sending anyway.
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- Location
- St. Petersburg
This is at least partially about territory, though? One of the reasons for us to consider the offer is that entire blocks of our city are unattended. Assigning their girls to existing teams doesn't help us cover more ground, and dilutes the team profits.
Besides, trying to poach a couple of their members does not prevent the drama. Quite to the contrary, it dissolves the group and creates even more instability on the border.
Besides, trying to poach a couple of their members does not prevent the drama. Quite to the contrary, it dissolves the group and creates even more instability on the border.
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Not so much assigning them to existing teams as assigning them to a team leader who answers directly to us (or is us some days). That would add a patrol team.
We don't want to give up the appearance that we're able to control the city, and Yui specifically doesn't want to buy into the idea that a team should control territory if it can be helped. It solves a bunch of problems if we can cover more ground but do so in a way that doesn't give up the right to claim here in all but name.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Broadly, our current options are as follows:
It doesn't make us look weak, it solves Furuhata's group's problem, it gives us more girls. Net benefit to all parties.
Which girls, though? Furuhata's group must remain functional afterwards, meaning that we can't take away all their combatants, but we would like to maximize our utility as well. As such, I followed @DarkLight140's lead and made a table:
Furuhata and Oshigiri are out for obvious reasons.
Konno and Ninomiya are simultaneously most displeased with the current arrangement, aren't crucial for Furuhata group's functioning, and underutilized. Ninomiya is nearly useless without Miyu, Konno doesn't use her full abilities because of secrecy. Konno's abilities would improve our Empire's overall efficiency, Ninomiya's abilities would allow us to mass-produce whatever our enchanters create (Soul Gem armor as standard equipment for our 30-40 girls!). If we take anyone, we take those two.
If we take three, Chizuka, Akina, and Miyu are roughly similar choices. Removal of any one of them doesn't massively hurt their group, and doesn't provide us with massive benefits in turn. Miyu may be the one who would most appreciate the transfer, but Furuhata is unlikely to be willing to give her up (sunk cost fallacy, etc.). Poor trusting Chizuka is in danger there, but wouldn't want to abandon her friends. Akina's personality leaves much to be desired, but her power would be quite dangerous if used against us (spying, infiltration), which arguably means we should snatch her to preempt this.
Thoughts?
- Follow Konno's plan. Effectively cede territory to another group, split Furuhata's group, maintain non-hostile relationship with her group. Peaceful option.
- Annex Furuhata's group. Acquire several new magical girls, likely alienate Furuhata and Oshigiri, destroy Furuhata's group. Hostile option, likely leads to a battle.
- Do nothing. Refuse Konno's offer, don't interact with her group. Furuhata's group remains a neutral enemy about to ex- or implode, we lose an opportunity provided by Konno, we gain no girls. Peaceful option.
It doesn't make us look weak, it solves Furuhata's group's problem, it gives us more girls. Net benefit to all parties.
Which girls, though? Furuhata's group must remain functional afterwards, meaning that we can't take away all their combatants, but we would like to maximize our utility as well. As such, I followed @DarkLight140's lead and made a table:
| Name | Personal preferences | Use for Yui's group | Use for an Arbitrary Tokyo Group |
| Honoka Furuhata | Survive. Keep everyone safe. |
Magic: useful but redundant. Synergy with Minami. Personality: hostile, as she dislikes meddling outsiders. |
Extremely useful for holding territory and finding/defeating witches. |
| Ikue Oshigiri | Stay with Furuhata. Survive. |
Magic: useful but redundant. Personality: would be unhappy if separated from Furuhata. |
Extremely useful for combat, magical girl or Witch alike. |
| Shina Konno | Survive. Fulfill her ambitions. |
Magic: very useful for optimizing the way we control our territory and for any conflicts. Synergy with Maiko. Personality: self-interested, but could likely be convinced that working with us is to her benefit. |
Very useful for any conflicts, almost useless in direct combat. |
| Tsurumi Ninomiya | Survive. Don't be outshone by Chizuka. |
Magic: notably useful for copying magical objects. Synergy with Maiko, Himari. Personality: separation from Chizuka and extensive use of her own powers would likely improve her mental state. |
Marginally useful for combat. |
| Chizuka Kumoto | Help her friends. Survive. |
Magic: useful but redundant. Personality: friendly enough, would potentially grow to be extremely loyal. |
Very useful for combat, but expensive. |
| Akina Tamazaki | Survive. |
Magic: useful (teleportation), partially redundant (everything else). Personality: amoral but not malicious; could be kept in line. |
Very useful for magical girl conflicts (tactics and logistics), useful against Witches. |
| Miyu Ishida | Unclear. Survive, be part of a moral group? |
Magic: useful but redundant. Potential synergy with Maiko, Himari. Personality: unclear, but Yui's group's environment would likely be better for her. |
Potentially highly useful long-term, unclear otherwise. |
Konno and Ninomiya are simultaneously most displeased with the current arrangement, aren't crucial for Furuhata group's functioning, and underutilized. Ninomiya is nearly useless without Miyu, Konno doesn't use her full abilities because of secrecy. Konno's abilities would improve our Empire's overall efficiency, Ninomiya's abilities would allow us to mass-produce whatever our enchanters create (Soul Gem armor as standard equipment for our 30-40 girls!). If we take anyone, we take those two.
If we take three, Chizuka, Akina, and Miyu are roughly similar choices. Removal of any one of them doesn't massively hurt their group, and doesn't provide us with massive benefits in turn. Miyu may be the one who would most appreciate the transfer, but Furuhata is unlikely to be willing to give her up (sunk cost fallacy, etc.). Poor trusting Chizuka is in danger there, but wouldn't want to abandon her friends. Akina's personality leaves much to be desired, but her power would be quite dangerous if used against us (spying, infiltration), which arguably means we should snatch her to preempt this.
Thoughts?
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- Location
- St. Petersburg
On the phone, so will be brief.
Transfering girls to us removes them from their team, weakening them to outsider threats. They will not be able to accept it in the current circumstances.
Which is why the offer we are getting is a team with mixed loyalties - something they may recall at any given time.
This won't work without some guarantee of their safety.
Transfering girls to us removes them from their team, weakening them to outsider threats. They will not be able to accept it in the current circumstances.
Which is why the offer we are getting is a team with mixed loyalties - something they may recall at any given time.
This won't work without some guarantee of their safety.
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SolipsistSerpent
Endlessly Devouring
I think removing three girls from their team might be a little too many.
I was originally joking but the more I've thought about it, the less of a joke it seemed. Have you considered offering them Naoko to ease the sting? Because if we don't get rid of her peacefully soon, I think we really will have to either kill her or let her die. And Yui would feel better not having to do either.
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Noumero
Omit Needless Words
As it stands, their numbers are both an advantage and a liability. Remember, Chizuka invaded because they lacked in Grief Seeds, not because they were under the threat of immediate annihilation. I propose to propose to remove the least useful members of their group while providing them with some Grief Seeds to recompense. Ninomiya and Konno aren't very useful against other magical girls (as far as Furuhata knows), so it wouldn't even decrease their peak efficiency by much. Grief Seeds and reduced strain would actually bring them closer to the peak.
Well...
Okay. It's a valid option. Hmm.
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- Location
- St. Petersburg
I am against making Naoko someone else's problem for the same reason we didn't exile her before. I am aware she is highly inconvenient to deal with, but unlike with Kaede, releasing a broken psycho to the wilds is not an acceptable solution for me. Some ideas on what to do with her were discussed previously.
As for the numbers of the Nerima group... it is pretty simple. They not held together by loyalty as a whole. They are having Seed deficit because they have too many people packed too densely, yes, but the reason they have that many people in the first place is because they can't cut them off or they would have done so already. You don't need many guesses as to why that is.
They don't seem like people who would accept others out of kindness of their hearts and then don't know what to do with them.
Hm. Konno might be doable, but would that even align with her plans? And how would it affect their group to have her transferred?
As for the numbers of the Nerima group... it is pretty simple. They not held together by loyalty as a whole. They are having Seed deficit because they have too many people packed too densely, yes, but the reason they have that many people in the first place is because they can't cut them off or they would have done so already. You don't need many guesses as to why that is.
They don't seem like people who would accept others out of kindness of their hearts and then don't know what to do with them.
Hm. Konno might be doable, but would that even align with her plans? And how would it affect their group to have her transferred?
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SolipsistSerpent
Endlessly Devouring
Previously we didn't have a group the QM outright said could probably keep her in check that was trying to negotiate with us, which makes this one of the best opportunities to deal with her. And if they "keep her in check" that means she's not just out in the wild doing whatever she wants.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
They also don't seem like people who would pragmatically kill off their teammates if they're dragging them down or inconveniencing them. Or, well, apparently one of them was this person — whoever sent Chizuka into our territory — but not the rest.
Their situation with neighbors can't be that dire, or Konno wouldn't have been able to get Furuhata to agree even on the loan.
SolipsistSerpent
Endlessly Devouring
Well, I'm not that fond of these people, so.... I don't care that much, but my guess is that their little Tattletale-lite can apply psychological leverage to ensure she can't dictate things as much as she'd like.
SolipsistSerpent
Endlessly Devouring
Then you know exactly who I'm talking about. Her power lets her intuit things superhumanly well and she often uses it to mash psychological weakpoints in enemies.
She needs somebody to do something to alter her behavior so she's not a danger to herself and others and I'll take what I can get.
PhDEevee
Mathematician and Questgiver
- Location
- Sydney
Unless someone is seriously intending to write a vote that suggests to Konno that they take Naoko, could we drop that topic until either 1) Naoko comes up in the update or 2) someone does seriously suggest something along those lines? Because it's going around in circles without any development and people are getting pissed off (I'm refraining from comment on the issue, but those who've been around a while know that I have strong opinions on this issue).
I like this, but it still shouldn't be relayed through Konno. Because she'll almost certainly use it as her play to seize leadership, which it has not been established that we want. Maybe we could even ask her straight out why she thinks she'd make a better leader than Furuhata?
Yeah, I agree that we also need a way to work around Konno's power play. Maybe it's as simple as refusing to let her bring any proposal back to Furuhata and instead insisting that she return with Furuhata so we can deal directly. Or else no deal at all.