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Puella Magi Imperatrix Mundi, or: Wherein Half Of Japan Tries To Kill You

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Note to self: cultivate a power that we can use to shut people up. As far as I can tell, there was nothing we could have done there to prevent Naoko from talking except killing her or kicking her head off and disconnecting her before she regenerated. We aren't going to give the next magical girl a chance to call our bluff.
 
DarkLight140 said:
talking about how idealism is the optimal game theory strategy in our situation
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Random act of WOG: If you want Yui to sit down and literally talk game theory, you can. The basic concepts are something she picked up from conversations with her brother.

Vebyast said:
Note to self: cultivate a power that we can use to shut people up.
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Sadly, a recording of Shinobu saying "Stop monologuing!" will not work. :V

LostDeviljho said:
@Echo can we replicate Spiritual Pressure ala Bleach?
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I think I've made my position on infinity-episode-long shounen series clear before. :V You'll need to clarify a bit for me to answer that.
 
DarkLight140 said:
Note to self, get actual Shinobu to follow us around and snap "be silent and bow to Empress Yui, worm!" at mouthy enemies.

What, I can dream...
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Shinobu would find that hilarious if not for the fact that it would actually work. :V

Vebyast said:
As far as I can tell, there was nothing we could have done there to prevent Naoko from talking except killing her or kicking her head off and disconnecting her before she regenerated. We aren't going to give the next magical girl a chance to call our bluff.
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Also, I will note again that Naoko is an unusual case in many ways because she has cheap regeneration and isn't afraid to use it. Most meguca won't try and bait you into injuring them so that they can gloat about how cruel you are or whatever.
 
Echo said:
I think I've made my position on infinity-episode-long shounen series clear before. :V You'll need to clarify a bit for me to answer that.
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Okay, first, if you won't watch the show, read the manga, which is better. Only reason to watch the anime is the OST and that one could've-been-canon filler arc at the beginning of Mexico.

And second, spiritual pressure is basically the weight of your soul's presence. big enough disparity when it isn't being suppressed, and the ones with weaker SP can end up frozen in place, collapsing to their knees under the weight of the opponent's SP, or just flat out passing out.
Basically, I'm asking if we can do an "aura of raw power", as opposed to the "aura of authority" we pulled on the bridge. The latter's good for getting people to do stuff, but the former would be nice to be able to flare and make people shut up because their hindbrains are telling them that continuing to be an idiot would be detrimental to their continued existence.
 
Echo said:
Did you miss this part?



"...wait, I didn't mean like that!"

"Unfortunately. That would have done wonders for my love life, believe me."

"...you have a love life?"

"No."
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Yes, because vote crafting is hard and makes my brain hurt. The only time my brain should work is during the process in which I bash my head against the keyboard in an attempt to purge my inner demons and set them lose on the innocent, or "Writing" as most people call it.
 
LostDeviljho said:
the weight of your soul's presence
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I dunno. Yui's soul weighs less than a kilogram, I'm pretty sure. :V

It's very pink though.

Hyp3rB14d3 said:
In Bleach, large amounts of spiritual pressure can be used to hinder movements, to the point that it's possible to cause people to suffocate with enough of it.
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LostDeviljho said:
Basically, I'm asking if we can do an "aura of raw power", as opposed to the "aura of authority" we pulled on the bridge. The latter's good for getting people to do stuff, but the former would be nice to be able to flare and make people shut up because their hindbrains are telling them that continuing to be an idiot would be detrimental to their continued existence.
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Hmm. I don't think so. If that was already something that was a thing in the setting then Yui would be able to apply considerable amounts of it thanks to her wish, but she can't just pull any hypothetical notion of "power" out of thin air and make it happen.
 
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We could also offer to introduce our "mysterious ally" later today in addition to whatever we tell her now, so that she can better make a decision. Maiko would probably be able to help convince her. Plus, she'll probably inevitably know if she does join up.

IMO, Yumi has proven to be pretty trustworthy. And she's rational enough to know betraying us is a bad idea, especially once she meets Maiko and we tell her how much Yui is actually capable of.
 
Echo said:
Hmm. I don't think so. If that was already something that was a thing in the setting then Yui would be able to apply amounts of it thanks to her wish, but she can't just pull any hypothetical notion of "power" out of thin air and make it happen.
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Hmm, make people feel the power of gravity?

"KNEEL" Flair the power, everyone is now eating pavement.
 
Echo said:
Hmm. I don't think so. If that was already something that was a thing in the setting then Yui would be able to apply amounts of it thanks to her wish, but she can't just pull any hypothetical notion of "power" out of thin air and make it happen.
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So we can compel people to do what we say, but not go "my energy is bigger than your energy", despite the latter being more directly related to "I wish for power"? I'm not sure I follow, but alright.
 
LostDeviljho said:
So we can compel people to do what we say, but not go "my energy is bigger than your energy", despite the latter being more directly related to "I wish for power"? I'm not sure I follow, but alright.
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We did wish for actual power, rather than the ability to show off how awesome we are. Doing just about anything is more directly related to our wish than proving to others that we could do something.
 
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LostDeviljho said:
So we can compel people to do what we say, but not go "my energy is bigger than your energy", despite the latter being more directly related to "I wish for power"? I'm not sure I follow, but alright.
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I think it's been shown sufficiently at this point we need a medium to project that power. It needs an expression. Near the start of the quest we felt 'power' through the exchange of money, we overtook the Witch's Kiss, our energy beams, and here we threw off the Gem's link.
 
LostDeviljho said:
So we can compel people to do what we say, but not go "my energy is bigger than your energy", despite the latter being more directly related to "I wish for power"? I'm not sure I follow, but alright.
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Your energy is bigger than their energy, though. :V Like, Yui's Soul Gem is very obvious and very obviously holding a lot of magic. It actually glows faintly and even the limited magic perception other meguca have will definitely tell them Yui has more than they do.

What you can't do is passively broadcast that into everyone's subconscious in a way that makes them react in any particular way.

You could probably even find a way to amplify the amount of magic you're perceived as having, but people wouldn't necessarily react to that in any specific way.
 
Echo said:
What you can't do is passively broadcast that into everyone's subconscious in a way that makes them react in any particular way.

You could probably even find a way to amplify the amount of magic you're perceived as having, but people wouldn't necessarily react to that in any specific way.
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Actively amplifying was what I actually intended, the passive stuff was just an explanation of how the thing I used for a comparison worked. It's not like our authority aura is passive either.

And just to confirm, we can't do any active aura's of intimidation, either?
 
DarkLight140 said:
Doing just about anything is more directly related to our wish than proving to others that we could do something.
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Frustration over being someone who "could do" instead of "does" was kind of a major motivating factor in becoming meguca, even. :V

Also:

LostDeviljho said:
So we can compel people to do what we say
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Shinobu can do that (whether she wants to or not). Yui does not have any sort of general-purpose compulsion. There's a reason why that one trick works sometimes and not others.
 
Echo said:
Shinobu can do that (whether she wants to or not). Yui does not have any sort of general-purpose compulsion. There's a reason why that one trick works sometimes and not others.
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... Is it that we are hijacking someone's power over someone else? So it wouldn't work on leaders or loners but it would on subordinates?
 
LostDeviljho said:
And just to confirm, we can't do any active aura's of intimidation, either?
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Well... maybe? You can't force someone to feel intimidated in general, but you could possibly do something more situational.

MobiusC said:
... Is it that we are hijacking someone's power over someone else? So it wouldn't work on leaders or loners but it would on subordinates?
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That's a plausible enough theory that I'm not sure if I should confirm or deny it outright instead of letting you think about it a bit more. :V
 
I read the update, skimmed through the following discussion, I'll go back and read it when I've got a moment.

I think the way to deal with Yumi is to talk to her alone in the near future. Like really alone, no Maiko or anything.

Then we get serious. We reveal our ambition, prove that our idealism doesn't blind us to the reality of the situation, and a few other things of that nature.

We'd also address some of her concerns more directly. She's worried that if she stays now, she won't have the option of bailing later without making an enemy of us, but that doesn't have to be the case.

Anyways, more on that later, I need to catch up on discussion, read pmmm, and a couple other things.
 
MobiusC said:
[:V] "Coexisting? I'm great at coexisting! Just as long as they coexist under me!"


[ ] Tell her you understand, but you'd like the opportunity to address any concerns she has.
-[ ] Brainmail Maiko, she's probably going to have to come out to Yumi.

Preliminary vote? I mean, we've basically portrayed ourselves as the main decision maker of the group, but we'd also like to show we simply aren't making decisions in a vacuum.
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A good start. I don't want to deal with Yumi's concerns right this second, we still have foreigners to deal with. I think. Did everybody leave?
argentorum said:
[ ] Yumi's concerns are mostly practical, right? What can you do to address them?
-[ ] "Sometimes the world needs a little bit of idealism right?" Smile sadly. "But heh, I get what you mean. No matter how much I joke about it I don't actually think my life is anime, okay?"
-[ ] "So if you like me enough, and let's face it, I am pretty adorable" sad smile "Then, maybe you can stay? And maybe I can learn to be more pragmatic? 'Cause I'm not above admitting that I could really use your help, and what type of magical girl empress would I be if I didn't listen to my subjects friends!"
-[ ] "So will you stay around Yumi? Pleeease, for me?"
--[ ] if she refuses to be swayed then wish her well, but let her know she's always welcome here as long as she follows the rules.

Preliminary diplomancy vote. I'm not sure if this sounds in character, but this is the best compromise I can think of between Yumi's concern's and our own personality.
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I like the direction here, but I think the presentation is flawed. Appealing to our cuteness isn't going to be effective in this situation, for example. Still, it's the closest to what I'm thinking from the proto-votes suggested so far.
Vebyast said:
[] You know what? Fine. I'll tell you what I'm going to do to her instead of killing her or exiling her so she can keep killing people. She's going to wake up in six months strapped to a table surrounded by Magical Girls with psychotherapey powers. And then we're going to help her deal with her problems. Yeah, I see that look on your face. She's so far away from being a sane, non-traumatized girl that it'd almost be like killing her. Har har har.
-[] She'll be right down at the bottom of the list for people to provide psychiatric support for, but she's going to be on the list, just like absolutely everybody else. I have not yet met a Magical Girl that didn't counseling. She just needs more of it.
-[] Besides, I don't want to be the kind of person that can just kill someone like this. Yui-Chan's Magical Empire of Love and Justice may end up having to execute people, but this is not the time to decide that, and summary executions will never happen. I will not be judge, jury, and executioner, and I will think about it before I pass sentence.
-[] Finally, before you give me the naive idiot speech that I can taste you winding up for - I have Power. I have enough power that my first real fight can be a nonlethal victory despite being outnumbered two-to-one by experienced Magical Girl team leaders. Last time I went hunting I killed seven witches in four hours. It's been two weeks and I already have the resources to keep them on ice until I can deal with them in some way that doesn't end up with people dead. I have the allies, flexibility, creativity, and willpower to take a third option in this miserable, pathetic world. I wished for the Power to be a Hero of Love and Justice and I got it.
-[] Turn on the Aura of Power for this paragraph.

Sorry, just wanted to vent.
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Too much monologues, too preachy, imo. And it's suggesting a course of action we haven't actually decided to follow yet.
DarkLight140 said:
[x] Yumi's concerns are mostly practical, right? What can you do to address them?
-[x] She's a practical person, so let's try for reasoned debate. We do understand her position, but we also believe that her claim that we're going to crash, burn, and get ourselves and everyone around us killed is incorrect, and we'd like a chance to convince her of that if she doesn't mind spending the time to talk it over with us. A bit of conversation is a reasonable enough request, right?

I think the above is the right sort of opener, regardless of what actual points we make following. Yumi might not actually be logical, but she tries to present herself that way even to herself. She wants to believe that she's doing the most intellectually optimal thing, and further, wants other people to agree with her. Yui is enough of a social chameleon that I'm willing to bet that we can successfully engage her on that playing field, given the right points; it's come up before that Yui tries to adapt her conversational strategies to whatever will appeal most to whoever she's talking to, so a one-on-one debate about philosophy and morality actually plays surprisingly well to her strengths.

We just need Yumi to agree that sitting down for an hour over ice cream or something and talking about how idealism is the optimal game theory strategy in our situation, sticking corpsicles into freezers until we have therapy and mind control to bring to bear is not a high-cost decision and has side benefits she's not appreciating, and surrounding ourselves with enough experienced advisors to mitigate the worst excesses of our personal beliefs is actually a more successful strategy than slinking off on her own to lay low/find an isolated territory/join a likely group elsewhere. If we can logic her into agreeing that her expected lifespan is longer with us than elsewhere, we'll have her.

Additional subpoints will be needed, obviously; this is just trying to reset the stage for our argument from "sweeten your offer or I'm ditching" to "I don't think you appreciate the worth of what's on the table and here's why".
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I'd want to come at this in the opposite direction. She's a pragmatist, Yui's an idealist.

I want to meet her on her level, and show her that we're not ignoring the reality of the situation.

You're trying to bring her to our level, but I don't think she'll buy the idealist spiel at this point in time.
 
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