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Persona: HEAVEN (Persona/Sword Art Online/Isekai Multicross)

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Relatedly to Zog's post, does the first write-in spitball idea I have here feel like a compromise to calling them out like in the wall-of-text?

Because that is a little... girthy as you admitted.
 
I'm trying to advance our strategy so we can get the barrier down and let the Fluegal rain death on our enemies and make our lives much easier.

The other write-ins more about feeling good over actually accomplishing anything.
 
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I mean, it is a bit lengthy because we're talking to 3-4 people here and it's tailored specifically to each of them. Like I said, I'm not particularly opposed to chopping it up and - say - using just the Zeliska one to start, then using XeXeeD next scene, etc. But since combat hasn't truly opened yet I feel like if ever there's an appropriate time to be able to give a lengthy speech it'd be now.

FWIW, even putting my plan aside, I feel like Hiyori pivoting to GGO being P2W, unfair, etc. just feels too transparently fake for her. Like, I get that the intent is to manipulate the audience but... it just feels too scripted? Like she's trying too hard. Even if my inability to be concise in wording has struck once again, I feel like the closest to a constant through-line Hiyori has had lately is trying to cut through schemes with the truth. Here she has 3 opponents each of whom is ignoring the truth in front of them in favor of the comforting lies a single schemer has offered them. Hiyori may not know Itsuki has done that to them but the poetry! :V
 
Alcor said:
I mean, it is a bit lengthy because we're talking to 3-4 people here and it's tailored specifically to each of them. Like I said, I'm not particularly opposed to chopping it up and - say - using just the Zeliska one to start, then using XeXeeD next scene, etc. But since combat hasn't truly opened yet I feel like if ever there's an appropriate time to be able to give a lengthy speech it'd be now.

FWIW, even putting my plan aside, I feel like Hiyori pivoting to GGO being P2W, unfair, etc. just feels too transparently fake for her. Like, I get that the intent is to manipulate the audience but... it just feels too scripted? Like she's trying too hard. Even if my inability to be concise in wording has struck once again, I feel like the closest to a constant through-line Hiyori has had lately is trying to cut through schemes with the truth. Here she has 3 opponents each of whom is ignoring the truth in front of them in favor of the comforting lies a single schemer has offered them. Hiyori may not know Itsuki has done that to them but the poetry! :V
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The thing is I don't think we need to be especially convincing here. People are here for a show so they'll eat up annything with some pathos and logos right now. I'm also bring back the points that Kyouji brought up before our fight with him of how GGO's player culture is toxic as fuck. XeXeed and Zeliska are both talking about how great a place GGO is but they're doing it from the perspective of the strong. There are countless people like Kyouji watching right now who've been shat on by the fame and they'll eat this shit up.

Other than that my write-in was done with the channeling Ash Nazg in mind so I went all LoR styled flowery speech on top of trying to rebrand what type of Dark Lord we are since Ash Nazg and Death Gun are really similar mantles only we can control the first and it nuetralizes the second.
 
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The Zog said:
As always I'm against Wall of Text write-ins that try to do everything at once. This is just phase one of the fight so let's see if we can set up the board. Besides, if this works we can stab the trolls in the back later and it'll feel all the sweeter for it.
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I agree with this.

Maybe "Death Gun is a LARP made by an edgy teenager who didn't live up to his dad's standards, and wanted to wallow in pain and misery after SAO instead of accepting help. It's sad that you still think I'm Death Gun, but you're still mad that I stopped you from falling for an obvious trap during the BoB. My goal was always to stop the SEED from hurting people, but I don't think you'd understand it if I tried explaining it to you."
 
The Zog said:
The other write-ins more about feeling good over actually accomplishing anything.
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*Sigh*

No, it's about trying to stay consistent with Hiyori's character arc. Her <<Real Deal: Truth>> that she gained when we made the decision when Lugh basically put it to us like halfway through the arc was to basically a dislike of schemers and those who try to control/puppet others and we've been pretty consistent lately in having Hiyori simply use the truth as a weapon. My write-in is designed to basically play straight to that. As I said, XeXeeD, Zeliska, and Daisy have all been approached by Itsuki (implied in XeXeeD's case, explicitly and in interludes for Zeliska/Daisy) and he has told them a lie that they would prefer to hear and embrace rather than an uglier and unpleasant truth that they know lies before them. Hiyori may not know this is all Itsuki but she absolutely knows that this situation has been brought about as a result of a bunch of schemes colliding so it follows that she would once again try to cut through it with lies.

Legitimately getting kind of tired of many of my ideas being dismissed as "[just trying to] feel good over actually accomplishing anything."

In the strict sense that I don't particularly care if this mechanically benefits us in the combat - sure, I guess that's true - I don't care if there's a numerically/tactically better way to deploy a speech to gain a combat advantage - my interpretation of Hiyori just naturally leads me to believe that this is probably how she'd approach it: with a bit of a "done with it" stress coloring it. As I've said repeatedly, I approach things narrative first, combat mechanics second manner. Certainly I don't expect everyone else to see it the same way so I don't take it personally if people prefer other approaches but it is irritating to me to see it played off as just trying to be "feel good." I was going to go on a bit more here, but the impression I got from pete in the post from not too long ago was to not argue/become stuck in thinking of Hiyori's character as "set" in its ways (and thus precluding future votes/decisions as out of character) so I won't press that issue too far if I can help it.

FWIW, assuming the verbal attacks land, I do think it would help us because pete said our speech could influence enemy actions. So unless you think those speeches just bounce off all 3 of them (and if you do I'd love to hear why! I like reading different takes on it! It helps me not get too stuck in my own interpretations!) I would expect it to help us in some way.

There are plenty of other reasons to shit on my ideas! I can't write things without vomiting multiple paragraphs! I'll tunnel on some particular detail and completely miss a bunch of other things that refute it entirely! You have a different read on Hiyori's character than me! I'm dumb! Talking shouldn't be a free action! Hell, in a vacuum I perfectly accept "yeah but I'd rather get something more concrete out of this in the battle" too it's just... the "[just trying to be] feel good" bit feels like an unnecessary put down that just rejects my approach to enjoying the quest and it's frustrating. :sad:
 
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Like, this just seems like the moment to vent out all of our frustrations about the Death Gun and Real Deal system, especially due to the special mechanic. The more we reduce it to nothing, the easier it gets for us.

We became less Death Gun...and more Edge Punisher. Not a destroyer, not a savior. Just someone who has to do what she has to do.
 
Alcor said:
*Sigh*

No, it's about trying to stay consistent with Hiyori's character arc. Her <<Real Deal: Truth>> that she gained when we made the decision when Lugh basically put it to us like halfway through the arc was to basically a dislike of schemers and those who try to control/puppet others and we've been pretty consistent lately in having Hiyori simply use the truth as a weapon. My write-in is designed to basically play straight to that. As I said, XeXeeD, Zeliska, and Daisy have all been approached by Itsuki (implied in XeXeeD's case, explicitly and in interludes for Zeliska/Daisy) and he has told them a lie that they would prefer to hear and embrace rather than an uglier and unpleasant truth that they know lies before them. Hiyori may not know this is all Itsuki but she absolutely knows that this situation has been brought about as a result of a bunch of schemes colliding so it follows that she would once again try to cut through it with lies.

Legitimately getting kind of tired of many of my ideas being dismissed as "[just trying to] feel good over actually accomplishing anything."

In the strict sense that I don't particularly care if this mechanically benefits us in the combat - sure, I guess that's true - I don't care if there's a numerically/tactically better way to deploy a speech to gain a combat advantage - my interpretation of Hiyori just naturally leads me to believe that this is probably how she'd approach it: with a bit of a "done with it" stress coloring it. As I've said repeatedly, I approach things narrative first, combat mechanics last manner. Certainly I don't expect everyone else to see it the same way so I don't take it personally if people prefer other approaches but it is irritating to me to see it played off as just trying to be "feel good." I was going to go on a bit more here, but the impression I got from pete in the post from not too long ago was to not argue/become stuck in thinking of Hiyori's character as "set" in its ways (and thus precluding future votes/decisions as out of character) so I won't press that issue too far if I can help it.

FWIW, assuming the verbal attacks land, I do think it would help us because pete said our speech could influence enemy actions. So unless you think those speeches just bounce off all 3 of them (and if you do I'd love to hear why! I like reading different takes on it! It helps me not get too stuck in my own interpretations!) I would expect it to help us in some way.

There are plenty of other reasons to shit on my ideas! I can't write things without vomiting multiple paragraphs! I'll tunnel on some particular detail and completely miss a bunch of other things that refute it entirely! You have a different read on Hiyori's character than me! I'm dumb! Talking shouldn't be a free action! Hell, in a vacuum I perfectly accept "yeah but I'd rather get something more concrete out of this in the battle" too it's just... the "[just trying to be] feel good" bit feels like an unnecessary put down that just rejects my approach to enjoying the quest and it's frustrating. :sad:
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Uh, sorry about that. The other reason why I'm so against your write-in is because I can't see any way for Pete to feasibly write it into a coherent battle scene.

Underdog Emiya said:
Like, this just seems like the moment to vent out all of our frustrations about the Death Gun and Real Deal system, especially due to the special mechanic. The more we reduce it to nothing, the easier it gets for us.

We became less Death Gun...and more Edge Punisher. Not a destroyer, not a savior. Just someone who has to do what she has to do.
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The thing is that right now we have the perfect chance to terminate the trios advantage right now in turn one by having the audience take down the shield and bring in the Fuegal all while using a Persona that specializes in big speeches and protects us from Death Gun. If it works or it doesn't we just switch tactics to verbally eviserating them.
 
Well that's about 3 and a half threads we didn't push on enough coming together to hit us where it hurts.

Itsuki being left alone to corrupt Daisy, not talking to Zeliska since the BLANK fight, continuing to work with Glowgen, and not destroying the Mask even when it seemed useless to at least announce our Intent. Instead we've kept ourselves too isolated and kept our cards so close to our chest that it's kindof reasonable we would be interpreted this way, and now we have our fictionalized false intent pressing in on us. Oh well, I don't plan on dying and having an ETTEILLA roll back so we can't change the past.

I'm all for smashing the Mask or our Death Gun now if it's on the table, I'd still rather smash the mythos and weaken ourselves than play into it for a buff, it's too dangerous and it's still against Hiyori's intent imo. I'm not sure if we're allowed though given how tied they are into the mechanics of the fight?

Maybe I'm the crazy one for wanting you leave Glowgen out of the fight as well for LLENN? I kindof still don't want anything to do with them since PoH's bullshit, so I understand part of this is me still wanting to betray them. LLENN would at least be solid for handling Daisy's summons as they spawn in though. Maybe she's better slotted in over Gwen atm, not sure her one Bronze Toaster activation beats the action economy gain from P-Chan and LLENN's AOE capabilities.

I quite like Alcor's points to Zeliska, we actually have good evidence to back up our position, and if she had approached us instead of Lugh or gave us any reason to work with her we'd be in a very different final fight right now.
 
I think the best approach atm is to crush the mask and reveal we're the edge punisher and working for the goverment (Kikuoka can go fuck himself, enough is enough). We can verbally attack everyone after we cleared that up because the current situation is super bad. I honestly think we should use the Flugel turn 1 to speedrun this shit.
 
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nhehvnukl said:
I think the best approach atm is to crush the mask and reveal we're the edge punisher and working for the goverment (Kikuoka can go fuck himself, enough is enough). We can verbally attack everyone after we cleared that up because the current situation is super bad. I honestly think we should use the Flugel turn 1 to speedrun this shit.
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The fuck it we ball approach. Bold move cotton, let's see how it plays out
 
[X] Speech: All the Evils In The World
-- "Don't you realize how contradictory you're all being? You three know how all this Death Gun bullshit works, you're just trying to gaslight me into being a supervillain so you can feel better about yourselves. I'm the one true Death Gun? You three are the only ones in the entire Derby using them! And Zeliska, you know who I really am, lying to your new boyfriend over there--I'm the Edge-Punisher!" Burns XaXa's mask with Starfall Crater, "I saved 300 people from Sugou and now I'll save everyone from this cesspool of a game."

After all the feedback from everyone and some thinking I came up with an idea. Get under the three Death Guns skin for effectively trying to guilt trip Hioyori into a supervillain and take advantage of the audience by exposing them as liars and hypocrites.
 
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The Zog said:
Uh, sorry about that.
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No worries. I tend to just bottle these things up and then eventually I explode over a slight thing and that's a me-problem, not you. I'm sorry too.
The Zog said:
The other reason why I'm so against your write-in is because I can't see any way for Pete to feasibly write into a coherent battle scene.
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I agree that's... a problem. I 100% would not have even humored something that long if combat had actually started - but as far as I can tell it hasn't, we're all still standing there before spells have started flying. Granted, I'm sure if this were a RPG, we just transitioned from the cutscene to the battle screen with Daisy's declaration there but... I think that since they got to speech-ify at us to lead into the battle it's not entirely unreasonable to get to speech back at them here.

I do still contend that the issue of it being long is that we're chatting to three people here. I think most of us would agree that if we just took the bit directed at each person on their own none of the component parts are unreasonably long - it's just that all three at once makes it quite unwieldy. My response there would be, "...Yeah. An editing pass could maybe make it a bit better but there's probably no getting around that. ...But just leaving it a generic "You're all ignoring the truth for a lie you want to hear!" to target all 3 at once just feels weak as an accusation. That kind of thing doesn't have impact IMO unless you explain what the truth and the lie is... and that's different for each of them which is what necessitates breaking it up a bit."

That said, obviously if Pete comes in and just goes "nope. too long." obviously I would accept that without issue. Same if it was conditionally accepted as "fine but i'm paraphrasing that monstrosity."

SNPC said:
I quite like Alcor's points to Zeliska, we actually have good evidence to back up our position, and if she had approached us instead of Lugh or gave us any reason to work with her we'd be in a very different final fight right now.
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I do think the (To Zeliska) part was the strongest of them, yeah. XeXeeD the weakest.

How about this as a means to trim it down?

[X]Speech: Cutting Through the Bullshit v1.1
-[X]"Are you all done yet? Because all I heard there was three people choosing to believe an easy lie instead of the hard truth because it makes them feel better."
-[X](To XeXeeD) "I don't think this was ever about the murders to you. You've just invested too much of yourself in your reputation and status here. Once 『 』showed you it couldn't be as 'the top player' you switched tracks to revenge and now a savior and you needed a cause - cheaters and justice."
-[X](To Zeliska) "You've had enough puzzle pieces to figure enough out if you really wanted instead of whatever all this is - you know players died in GGO and as a GM you should know I only came to this game after. Because I was investigating it just like ALO. I came to your place IRL with the Virtual Division! How's that fit in your theory? Is the Japanese Government in on this too and trying to mess with GGO for fun? But admitting the truth to yourself might mean you could lose your AI assistant - who I tried to give you advice on how to save anyway - and you couldn't accept that."
-[X](To Daisy) "You've watched this entire trainwreck happen the whole time and despite having the power to, never lifted a finger until now and only to point it at me. Try pointing it to the thing responsible - Kayaba's SEED. If you think playing into Zeliska's fantasy is all you can do to help her at this point, you're wrong, that's just being a bad friend. Trust me, I've been a pretty bad one in the past myself and I know how much it hurts to admit that - but this isn't helping her. Sometimes, a friend has to step in when their friend is lost and tell them what they need to hear not what they want to hear"

Omitting the crowd one for now. Partially because I never was happy with it. Partially as a concession if we want them to keep playing into it. Personally I think that's a bad idea given how it's affecting Hiyori but...
 
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The Zog said:
[X] Speech: All the Evils In The World
-- "Don't you realize how contradictory you're all being? You three know how all this Death Gun bullshit works, you're just trying to gaslight me into being a supervillain so you can feel better about yourselves. I'm the one true Death Gun? You three are the only ones in the entire Derby using them! And Zeliska, you know who I really am, lying to your new boyfriend over there--I'm the Edge-Punisher!" Burns XaXa's mask with Starfall Crater, "I saved 300 people from Sugou and now I'll save everyone from this cesspool of a game."

After all the feedback from everyone and some thinking I came up with an idea. Get under the three Death Guns skin for effectively trying to guilt trip Hioyori into a supervillain and take advantage of the audience by exposing them as liars and hypocrites.
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Hm...I have some suggestions here.

[X] Speech: The Raw Facts
-[x] "So now you point fingers at me, huh? The trio that abused the power of the Death Guns through this entire farse of a tournament? I am free of that shit. This is just one big, fat, contradiction, that you three cling as an excuse to hide your fallings. The so-called king can't contemplate being anywhere not the top and tries to dress things as if he's fighting for good when he's fighting to soothe his weak ego, the GM that couldn't bear to against the bark of her boss now turns to the one person here who offered her an out and the girl she tried to protect poses itself as a god in an attempt to help your friend! The entire time in this hellhole was lies after lies after lies, and I'm done with it!" Throw XaXa's Mask into the ground and put all your strength into a Starfall Crater until nothing remains. "Here's the one truth here, a truth you knew Uncrowned Queen! I am the Edge Punisher, not a destroyer of worlds, but a savior of 300 souls from the slimy hands of Sugou! So either get those sticks up your asses out or deal with me!"
 
[X] Speech: Demon Lord of Reality's Rhetoric
-- [X] "Everyone, do you see how contradictory they're being? A world of fairness? Even before Death Gun GGO had a predetory cash shop second only to YGGDRASIL. A King saving the world? This is the sneering rat who cheated you with his lies. GGO is a world built upon division and exploitation. They seek to protect a delusion that never even existed even in fantasy. But now you've gathered behind me. You can destroy this golden barrier and be a part of something that will put BLANK's spectacle to shame! We shall crush them under the weight of reality!"

[X] Speech: All the Evils In The World
-- [X] "Don't you realize how contradictory you're all being? You three know how all this Death Gun bullshit works, you're just trying to gaslight me into being a supervillain so you can feel better about yourselves. I'm the one true Death Gun? You three are the only ones in the entire Derby using them! And Zeliska, you know who I really am, lying to your new boyfriend over there--I'm the Edge-Punisher!" Burns XaXa's mask with Starfall Crater, "I saved everyone in ALO from Sugou, then I got the original Death Gun arrested, that's how I have his mask, and now I'll save everyone from this cesspool of a game by banishing Death Gun's real successors; the three of you."

Okay since both my write-ins have fans I've fixed the formatting and put both up for posterity.

For my Edge-Punisher one my its core is based around how all three of them jumped and and contributed on the 'Kuro is Death Gun' narrative. Best to use it to tie our opening speech together.
 
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[X] Speech: The Raw Facts
[X] Speech: All the Evils In The World

I really think outing ourselves as Edge Punisher is a must if only for Hiyori's mental health, to affirm to herself why she's doing what she's doing.
 
Underdog Emiya said:
Hm...I have some suggestions here.

[X] Speech: The Raw Facts
-[x] "So now you point fingers at me, huh? The trio that abused the power of the Death Guns through this entire farse of a tournament? I am free of that shit. This is just one big, fat, contradiction, that you three cling as an excuse to hide your fallings. The so-called king can't contemplate being anywhere not the top and tries to dress things as if he's fighting for good when he's fighting to soothe his weak ego, the GM that couldn't bear to against the bark of her boss now turns to the one person here who offered her an out and the girl she tried to protect poses itself as a god in an attempt to help your friend! The entire time in this hellhole was lies after lies after lies, and I'm done with it!" Throw XaXa's Mask into the ground and put all your strength into a Starfall Crater until nothing remains. "Here's the one truth here, a truth you knew Uncrowned Queen! I am the Edge Punisher, not a destroyer of worlds, but a savior of 300 souls from the slimy hands of Sugou! So either get those sticks up your asses out or deal with me!"
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Once again, it's overembellished in that it dilutes the main point. We're also trying to play the audience here by exposing the Neo-DG trio as frauds and hypocrites. That's the thread that links them all together.

And the exaggerated Starfall Crater scene is just to over the top.
 
Would Heresiarch's Emanation turn off when we switch Personas? Glowgen's S-rank CHT is terrifying if it gets added to every roll that they make.
 
[X] Speech: I never asked for this
[?] Speech: Demon Lord of Reality's Rhetoric

Mechanically, the point of speeches is to reduce enemy action or to inspire observer action in your favour, and to manipulate the DG count.

We don't have a good position here rhetorically though, and I think the second option may not be something we want to boost now since it will likely increase the DG count, even if it too is true in a way?
Though I will say the second one here is a good follow-up for the first, but the reverse is not true.
 
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