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Persona: HEAVEN (Persona/Sword Art Online/Isekai Multicross)

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[X] Maintain your poker face and call off the deal. [You lack MASK necessary for this option] [10 D]

Honestly, I'm tempted to use PoH's bullshit here to walk away from Glowgen and use the opportunity to destroy the SEED and not help Subtilizer which was always the most scummy part of the deal we made. I was willing to help him under the previous conditions but I'm also very much willing to demonstrate Hiyori has a spine and that if PoH is going to be an asshole about it that we're just gonna walk. Might make the Derby harder and I don't like breaking our word to Lugh but far as I'm concerned (and I feel like it should be pretty clear to the other Glowgen peeps) things were fine right up until PoH started adding conditions to an already agreed upon deal so we're not actually breaking our word, PoH tried some Vader "I have altered the deal" and we're like "nope bye." He left his lane and tried to go above his boss and ruined the deal himself. Can they ever be sure Hiyori/we meant to keep to our deal? I guess not - but I think Lugh and Lievre will feel we would have.

Ruining Glowgen's plot may not affect PoH's life all that much (don't really see what's in it for Subtilizer/Miller to burn him at that point) but it's not even really about that. I'd say we can then go to Argo and Kikuoka but just like Lugh said he probably can't do much with just Hiyori's face (I think he's lying but whatevs) I doubt they can do much with just one name. Maybe Argo can find him over a long timeframe like... midway through UW or something idk. OTOH, she might already know this much because again... just a name.

Sure, getting revenge on him would be nice - and Hiyori definitely wants it - but I think there's also something to just... cutting him out of her life. Going "nah fuck you and your mindgames. and fuck the fact that you'd probably get a kick out of my hatred and bloodlust for you and that you exert influence on me even with that. i went through two years of you effortlessly pulling my strings - no more"

Narratively, I feel like it's unlikely that we just remove Miller - and therefore PoH - from UW by walking here so OoC we probably will still get a chance to confront PoH (hell, we probably face them in the Derby itself.) but again I wouldn't be that upset if this was it and we never saw him again. Maybe it's not the "conventional" resolution to the shit PoH put Hiyori through but like I said, I still think it can be a powerful one if she thinks about it in the right way.

Like I said, I'm open to reporting what (little) we've learned about PoH's identity to Argo and/or Kikuoka but I doubt that needs to be included in this vote and would be a separate activity vote - at least for Argo. Guess I'd be okay with the HYDRA betrayal plan as well if that's more acceptable to people since it comes with some UW perks.
 
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[x] Plan to trick XeXeeD into killing PoH. [10 D]
>Maintain cover but don't expose your identity to Glowgen. Insist they will have to trust you.
>You will meet with XeXeeD and inform him of PoH and his connection to the Death Gun murderers.

I don't understand why is everyone is so fixated on destroying GGO, I mean in the end of the day it just game and is only crime is being used by a psychopath to spread his evil message, is like saying because some humans are evil, we must destroy humanity to prevent more evil to be born. Also I don't just him, he is a murderers, a psychopath and I don't want to cooperate with.

Edit: change my vote, to be honestly I don't want to kill PoH but at least we can told XeXeeD what we know.
 
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afreaknamedpete said:
Glowgen will trust you as a whole, and will also put in a good for word you with ADMINISTRATOR. This effects your Arc 4 "entry point".
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afreaknamedpete said:
If Glowgen gets what they want, they will put in a good for word you with ADMINISTRATOR. This effects your Arc 4 "entry point".
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I know what I voted for as I don't intend on backing out, but do you think the differences here are worth 10D?

Fantasy explorer said:
it just game and is only crime is being used by a psychopath to spread his evil message
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Problem here is that Kayaba is using it, indirectly, to make all games no longer games if that makes sense?

Though we have no stake in destroying this world this time, we just need it to get an entry point into Underworld.
 
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I am disinclined towards backing out here, since it doesn't really help us (in fact, it leaves us in a bad position, with few allies and a likely very difficult battle ahead). It doesn't help that we did not make other preparation that could allow us to pivot from disengaging with Glowgen and I don't trust Hydra, so I'll have to advocate for either the 30D option or the 20D option, since those don't throw a severe wrench in our plans so late into the arc and will help us in the fourth arc. If we would have engaged with one of the other two bullets, it would have made backing out/betraying a less risky option (since it would have given us an option towards pivoting towards having at least one of those two as a potential ally), but as it is I am against it.

If we are really certain we want to align against Glowgen, then at least go for XeXeeD option, in the hopes that it could allow us to ally with him (at least temporarily).
 
Ratato said:
I know what I voted for as I don't intend on backing out, but do you think the differences here are worth 10D?
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I mean the first option is essentially Hiyori exposing her identity to Johnny Black, the murder, the BLACK COFFIN, the past that she is desperately trying to move on and her major source of trauma.

The second ones is Hiyori still work with him but don't tell her true identity, at least this way she till have some semblance of control to fell safe, to feel protective.
 
Not sure why everyone's agreeing to the options that outright state we don't have the MASK for them. Is there something I'm missing, mechanically?

Anyway, Well Shit. At the very least, we shouldn't feel too bad we didn't grind MASK before this--I doubt there's any reasonable level that would let Hiyori shake hands with her personal devil.
 
DrWalpurgisnacht said:
Not sure why everyone's agreeing to the options that outright state we don't have the MASK for them. Is there something I'm missing, mechanically?
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That's a relatively standard warning/notification though? It's there whenever we "fail" a stat check and basically serves notice that if we want to push on with it anyway we have to make up the "difference" with DETERMINATION. We were told before that being to escape this encounter with PoH without D cost would have required MASK 10 which... very obviously we were not going to have here (reminds me of the very rare stat checks in Persona that are simply just not possible outside NG+) but I assume that our MASK level would affect how much the D cost would be here (ie at a lower MASK level it would cost even more here to take these actions.) Maybe at a low enough level we simply would be unable to conceal our identity from PoH period regardless of DETERMINATION.

But mechanically speaking we're told whether or not an option allows us to keep PoH from figuring out we're Lux so there's not a risk in that sense.
 
DrWalpurgisnacht said:
Not sure why everyone's agreeing to the options that outright state we don't have the MASK for them. Is there something I'm missing, mechanically?
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Lack of stat only means we have to pay Determination to be able to pick an option, not being unable to pick the option at all. Having the stat at the needed level means not having to pay determination to pick a stat-based option IIRC.
 
Fantasy explorer said:
Can someone tell me again who HYDRA is.
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We're (as in the thread. When Hiyori accused HYDRA face-to-face of being Itsuki he denied it) relatively sure it's Itsuki but that's not confirmed beyond the fact it'd be a massive red herring if not given he shares the same disguise as Fatal Bullet Itsuki, etc.. Most recently they chatted with us in the guise of an ArFA that had our appearance (the whole doppleganger encounter a few updates back.)
 
Fantasy explorer said:
essentially Hiyori exposing her identity to Johnny Black, the murder, the BLACK COFFIN, the past that she is desperately trying to move on and her major source of trauma
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Fair, but isn't the whole point that this isn't exposing to PoH or Johnny Black, but to Lugh (who has chosen to give his Trust to us, at least for now, and is disinclined to harming us due to favour and SL 3?) as long as the agreement is kept?
 
Ratato said:
Fair, but isn't the whole point that this isn't exposing to PoH or Johnny Black, but to Lugh (who has chosen to give his Trust to us, at least for now, and is disinclined to harming us due to favour and SL 3?) as long as the agreement is kept?
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Lugh or no Lugh it doesn't matter because the first one is Lugh will kill us if we don't work with PoH, just like went Hiyori work for the Laughing Coffin and we all know how she fell about it. The second one give Hiyori more freedom to breathe, to know that she won't absolutely have to work with him, a way out.
 
Unrelated to the vote but Time Police reporting in (I've been slacking a bit, sorry!) but this current update is labelled both 7/8 (in the Threadmark) and Wednesday. But Wednesday would be 7/9 (alternatively we're still on Tuesday the 8th.)

I think it makes more sense to be 7/9 Wednesday but it's not impossible that this meetup is indeed 7/8 Tuesday and being held immediately after we hung out with Shino. But that seems... unlikely to me. Shino was After School and presumably took some time while this update opens at 1600 (so 4 PM and I assume the server time reads out Japan Standard Time.) I don't know when Isei High lets out but I kinda doubt the time exists to fit all that in! ...unless this is the true power of spending determination to increase our action count in plan phases :V
 
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I guess our difference in opinion here is that I believe our interests and goals are genuinely best served on this ship, and so the threat of betrayal is immaterial for this moment?

But might as well clarify:
@afreaknamedpete
1) Does taking the 30D option mean that in future Arcs, if we continue to work with Glowgen and screw over PoH somehow it will count as a betrayal as far as Lugh is concerned?
(Read: The trust is for the long term, but the agreement is for this Arc only?)

2) Does the 30D option have an extra benefit of making PoH think that Lux being Hiyori is an entirely ridiculous concept (since Hiyori as understood would never have done this)?

[X] Smile and agree to his terms. [You lack the Astronomical MASK necessary for this option] [30 D]

[X] Smile and say he'll just have to trust you. [You lack the MASK necessary for this option] [20 D]

We need to follow through, and while I think the trust from everyone else not PoH will be useful, I'm not married to that option
 
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[X] Smile and say he'll just have to trust you. [You lack the MASK necessary for this option] [20 D]

I really want to kill PoH but it just seems like a stupid idea. Breaking the agreement is also dumb at this point, we don't have backup plans and I really do think that glowgen will be very useful in the coming arcs. We're at the finish line guys, lets stick the landing.
 
[X] Maintain your poker face and call off the deal. [You lack MASK necessary for this option] [10 D]
I've not been particularly happy about handing over the SEED in the best or circumstances and this is absolutely the point to break it off. Refuse to be threatened or coerced in any way, especially since it's made perfectly clear here that we're destroying the SEED either way and the only difference is we let Miller access the UW early which from what I've been told of the UW plot is a bad idea.

It notes Lugh leaves our party, not breaks the social link, I think that makes sense as the breakdown here is ultimately PoH's fault.

While I'm fine with Hiyori needing to kill to reach objectives, and I'm absolutely fine with PoH being one of the people she might have to kill, she doesn't "need" to kill him now. Premeditaton is a bit beyond where I would like to take Hiyori atm.
 
[X] Smile and say he'll just have to trust you. [You lack the MASK necessary for this option] [20 D]

I'm going for any option that keeps us working with Glowgen. PoH is a sadistic idiot, there will be plenty of chances to get rid of him later and I'm more interested on what we can do with Miller while he's in his empty shell phase before he becomes yet another dissapointment of a SAO villain.
 
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SNPC said:
It notes Lugh leaves our party, not breaks the social link, I think that makes sense as the breakdown here is ultimately PoH's fault.
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Lugh will have a SL with us even if he hates us, just as an adversary (like Kayaba's SL )

Anyways, I want to mention how Hiyori will be very exposed next arc- Lugh's excuse will not hold for long, we are in too deep. If we betray them we should sell them out to Hydra, they have enough info on us to be a problem. Just walking out is just super risky for no good reason.
 
nhehvnukl said:
Lugh will have a SL with us even if he hates us, just as an adversary (like Kayaba's SL )
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Broken Social Links are definitely a thing here though. While we ultimately chose otherwise, had we kidnapped Shiro back when Kazuma brought us to their hideout we were explicitly told that would break the Judgment link.

So the fact that we're not told we would break the Coins link is telling with regard to how it doesn't completely ruin the relationship between Hiyori and Lugh. It's true that we also have links that are largely defined negatively - such as Kayaba whom you brought up - and Sora showed us that Social Links can sorta be weaponized with hostile intent with the actual formation of Judgment but I actually would place Kayaba in a somewhat special category. Fool is already a kind of "special" Arcana in normal Persona cosmology being the "Protagonist" one (for the purposes of this quest we can call it "Philemon's chosen" Arcana more or less) but in the THOTH deck that Nyarly has us running, Fool also holds a significant spot in that it's the last Arcana - where World would be in the traditional deck.

In strict game mechanics parlance, I'd say it's basically one of the "Story" links that every Persona has with some elements of Adachi's Hunger/Lust. And like with Adachi, I feel like if the nature of Hiyori and Lugh's relationship flipped to pure hostility/hate/betrayal we would expect some kind of effect on the Arcana. Either a morph like Adachi's or a Reversal (unlike how Reversed links are in the Persona games where it's more of a rare "y'all done fucked up - go apologize" state)

I guess what I'm saying here is, if Lugh were to actually hate us - I'd expect something significant to happen to the link. Now I could be wrong on this musing and/or it also could be the case that we simply aren't being told every possible consequence of our choice here and it might reverse/break/change if Lugh takes our decision here poorly. Consequently, if it does not change in such a way I would take it as the relationship having not fatally deteriorated.
 
Alcor said:
Broken Social Links are definitely a thing here though. While we ultimately chose otherwise, had we kidnapped Shiro back when Kazuma brought us to their hideout we were explicitly told that would break the Judgment link.

So the fact that we're not told we would break the Coins link is telling with regard to how it doesn't completely ruin the relationship between Hiyori and Lugh. It's true that we also have links that are largely defined negatively - such as Kayaba whom you brought up - and Sora showed us that Social Links can sorta be weaponized with hostile intent with the actual formation of Judgment but I actually would place Kayaba in a somewhat special category. Fool is already a kind of "special" Arcana in normal Persona cosmology being the "Protagonist" one (for the purposes of this quest we can call it "Philemon's chosen" Arcana more or less) but in the THOTH deck that Nyarly has us running, Fool also holds a significant spot in that it's the last Arcana - where World would be in the traditional deck.

In strict game mechanics parlance, I'd say it's basically one of the "Story" links that every Persona has with some elements of Adachi's Hunger/Lust. And like with Adachi, I feel like if the nature of Hiyori and Lugh's relationship flipped to pure hostility/hate/betrayal we would expect some kind of effect on the Arcana. Either a morph like Adachi's or a Reversal (unlike how Reversed links are in the Persona games where it's more of a rare "y'all done fucked up - go apologize" state)

I guess what I'm saying here is, if Lugh were to actually hate us - I'd expect something significant to happen to the link. Now I could be wrong on this musing and/or it also could be the case that we simply aren't being told every possible consequence of our choice here and it might reverse/break/change if Lugh takes our decision here poorly. Consequently, if it does not change in such a way I would take it as the relationship having not fatally deteriorated.
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My comment is based off of Lugh's SL, I remember Hiyori's narration implying that even if Lugh is our enemy the SL will still exist with the nature of it changing.

Judgment breaking is a bit different I think- seperating Blank is very different from betraying Lugh and at the time we didn't even have a SL with them, just felt the SEED.
 
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The Zog said:
[X] Smile and agree to his terms. [You lack the Astronomical MASK necessary for this option] [30 D]

[X] Smile and say he'll just have to trust you. [You lack the MASK necessary for this option] [20 D]

I'm going for any option that keeps us working with Glowgen. PoH is a sadistic idiot, there will be plenty of chances to get rid of him later and I'm more interested on what we can do with Miller while he's in his empty shell phase before he becomes yet another dissapointment of a SAO villain.
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Continuing to work for Glowgen for the remainder of this arc doesn't give us any further interactions with Miller. We've been explicitly told what they'll do with the SEED, they will use it as a one way gate to the Underworld and we will then destroy it.

Working with them let's them interact with UW before we're there to rein anybody in. I don't know if it's a lack of knowledge on my part, but this seems like a way for Miller to take up Vecta before we can do anything about it.

Alcor said:
I guess what I'm saying here is, if Lugh were to actually hate us - I'd expect something significant to happen to the link. Now I could be wrong on this musing and/or it also could be the case that we simply aren't being told every possible consequence of our choice here and it might reverse/break/change if Lugh takes our decision here poorly. Consequently, if it does not change in such a way I would take it as the relationship having not fatally deteriorated.
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This is kindof where I stand on Lugh's link. If we were to break off our relationship with glowgen here, I don't think our relationship with Lugh will be damaged that much. This would and should be read as another PoH fuckup by antagonizing their only remaining path to their goal.

I'd honestly like to Negotiate from here if I'm being honest. Let's capitalize on PoH's fuckup. It's 10 Determination to maintain anonymity and another 10 to not break off relations with Glowgen due to the PoH connection. But thinking it over, PoH is right to be concerned we'll flip because quite frankly, Glowgen isn't giving us anything.

We could threaten to break off the deal of they don't hand over Johnny for free. Or we could potentially push for something else of use. Thanks for spelling out openly who has the winning hand in this situation pooface.
 
[x] Plan to trick XeXeeD into killing PoH. [10 D]
>Maintain cover but don't expose your identity to Glowgen. Insist they will have to trust you.
>You will meet with XeXeeD and inform him of PoH and his connection to the Death Gun murderers.
 
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