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Perchance to Dream (Mass Effect / Commander)

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Gindjurra said:
It's a synthetic species that lives as a program inside a computer. Why wouldn't you think AI when you see one?
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What computer? We've seen a Human spawn an Anima, there was no computer involved. They make them in their soul/mind place, or whatever they call it.

By your logic the entire human race are AI.
Or rather, that some are mind uploads and the rest, who were born there, are AI. Because they make new Humans in a nearly indentical fashion.

Seriously, one is: me and my partner pooled our minds together and spawned a new Human.
The other is: I did the exact same thing on my own and made a pet.

How you would not call that a subservient subspecies perplexes me.
 
Mgunh1 said:
What computer? We've seen a Human spawn an Anima, there was no computer involved. They make them in their soul/mind place, or whatever they call it.

By your logic the entire human race are AI.
Or rather, that some are mind uploads and the rest, who were born there, are AI. Because they make new Humans in a nearly indentical fashion.

Seriously, one is: me and my partner pooled our minds together and spawned a new Human.
The other is: I did the exact same thing on my own and made a pet.

How you would not call that a subservient subspecies perplexes me.
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Perhaps this issue could be solved by taking some inspiration from Halo and seperating Anima into two different catagories, one being "Smart" Anima which are genuinely sentient and experience reality with a conscience and while also having "Dumb" Anima which can seem sentient but in reality are just well highly advanced programs or really smart animals kinda like the Huragok servitors.
 
Or you compare them to uneducated childs (or toddlers) and adults.
 
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5.5
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    • 5.5

    +++

    "I have to admit, Venar, your book of contingencies is incredibly well thought out." Marcus said, putting the data-slate down. "You even have a contingency for exactly the scenario happening right now."

    "Not exactly." The Volus denied, shaking their head. The Volus was a humble one, which seemed at odds with their job of being the chief of the Volus Citadel Embassy, but that humbleness hid a sharp intellect and business sense that bordered on supernatural. "At no point in time was it assumed that we would meet the Protheans, and a species of effectively infinite industrial power at that same time."

    "That's basically just nitpicking, isn't it?" Marcus said. "Alright. Now, you're the economist here, so why don't you explain it?"

    "Engaging in material trade is just this side of pointless." Venar stated. "The addition of Earth-clan-created goods would inevitably crash any economy unless strictly controlled and monitored, on account of the fact that all goods produced by Earth-clan could be produced in any amount at any time for no cost. A limitless supply of free goods will do nothing but disrupt the galactic economy."

    "Of course."

    "Two avenues remain open, however; trades of intellectual properties and trades of services. Careful management would be required to ensure that the services provided are not services that would completely obsolete their counterparts in Citadel Space without any chance at competition, but that's not unusual."

    "So what's your proposal?" Marcus asked, now beginning to become intrigued.

    Venar handed him another data-slate. Marcus raised a brow when he saw that it was over six hundred pages long.

    Crystals sprouted over it as he pulled the information on it directly into his mind. It only took a few minutes after that to go through it all, a consequence of the fact that it hadn't been formatted for ready mental integration.

    But, the Volus could not be blamed for that.

    "Hmm. It has potential, though there's a few things we'd want to discuss."

    +++

    "So what are we doing about the Geth?"

    "Opinions are currently flipping between 'wait and see' and 'contact them'. Further investigation has revealed that there are a number of things the galaxy was not entirely aware of."

    "The Quarians, most notably. There was a significant fraction of Quarians that accepted and helped the Geth. Most were detained or killed by the Quarian government at the time. Furthermore, the so-called genocide committed by the Geth was far more even than the galaxy thinks. Some 36% of Quarians that died during the Geth War were actually killed by other Quarians, with an additional 16% having committed suicide after being captured by the Geth, and 27% simply never surrendering at all."

    "That is a significant difference to accepted history."

    "What of the remainder?"

    "Cities, production areas, and any other locations overrun by the Geth were targeted for bombardment in the name of deny assets to the Geth. Civilian populations, as well as any military personnel that couldn't leave in time, were considered already lost. Starvation usually killed any who did not die alright."

    "Historical revisionism at its finest."

    "Exactly. The only reason there are currently no Quarians in the Geth's care is because the Quarian government killed them all."

    "It holds implications about the Migrant Fleet."

    "We will discuss that later. The Geth are interested in us."

    "Oh?"

    "They watch Marcus closely and carefully. Every bit of data they acquire on us is shortly routed back into Geth space. We have located one of communication relays they're using."

    "This is what provided us the insight into the Geth. That connection led us right to them."

    "I feel it is important to say this; when Marcus pushed Javik's mind from his body, the Geth's communications network lit up in a way that I haven't seen before or since. That specific event intrigued them greatly."

    "I bet I can guess what that was about."

    "It is fairly obvious."

    "It made the Geth consider contacting us. While they ultimately decided not to, it was a very even vote. They refrained only for the potential negative reactions on the part of the Citadel Species. Even so, they are examining their options, and have not yet abandoned the idea of contacting us."

    "So chances are, if we don't meet them, they're going to meet us."

    "This may not be a bad thing."

    "It all depends on the specifics."

    "Doesn't everything?"

    "Regardless of everything else, the assistance of the Geth would prove significantly useful in combating the Harvesters. Acquiring it would be a good idea."

    "Yes, but acquiring it right now might generate unnecessary contention. We would be better off waiting until we have closer relationships with the Citadel Species, then do it, so that we would be in a better position to deal with any potential fallout."

    "If they do not contact us first, at any rate."

    "So long as they don't start a conflict, it will be fine."

    "Maybe we should leave an avenue of communication open."

    "Oh?"

    "All current Citadel Embassies possess Extranet accounts that provide a number of services. Establishing something similar would provide an avenue of communication for the Geth to directly reach out to us, and once our embassy has actually been opened, we could migrate it all over relatively quickly and easily. Win-win."

    "A majority of us agrees that this is a good idea.."

    "Shall we call that matter to vote?"

    "Yes."

    "Very well. Sending the alert."

    "..."

    "..."

    "..."

    "Everybody is caught up?"

    "Yes."

    "Anybody have anything to add or clarify?"

    "The major topics have already been covered. Only unforeseen minutia will affect the outcome. Cast the votes."

    "..."

    "..."

    "Votes have been cast."

    "Results tally at 84% agreement. We will do so."

    "Very well. I am launching a sub-group; all who wish to participate in the creation and management of our account, please join."

    "Are there any remaining outstanding topics of discussion?"

    "All major matters have deliberated. Only minor matters remain. Attention from the whole is not required."

    "I will rescind, then. I am busy."

    "I as well."

    "A significant amount of us are. We shall return to low-level activity."

    "Agreed."

    "Agreed."

    Marcus broke from the group.

    Lysti briefly touched against his mind, passing along everything she thought he would need to know before flowing away again.

    Hmm... Another request for a meeting, more mail, a preliminary schedule for the next day...

    He leaned back, and released a slow breath of air.

    Never a dull day in Citadel Space.
     
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    • While 27% of the Quarians killed in the Morning War is likely a staggering amount of deaths, the fact that only the Quarians who were attacking the Geth died at the hands of Geth is likely to have quite the impact on the Citadel. The fact that 73% of the Quarian deaths in that war were deliberately caused by Quarians would likely have amazing effects on the general public's readiness to accept AI.

    Most people have no problems with someone killing the person who is trying to murder them, after all.

    stads said:
    even with all the power they have paperwork still exits is there no way of defeating that enemy:cry:
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    Anyone who believes the last enemy to be defeated is death has never encountered paperwork. :p
     
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    If you think about it, Humanity is at the peak of what the Geth strive to be.... one collective being.
    Only the Geth need a platform to do so while Humanity does not. ;)
     
    Drich said:
    "I feel it is important to say this; when Marcus pushed Javik's mind from his body, the Geth's communications network lit up in a way that I haven't seen before or since. That specific event intrigued them greatly."

    "I bet I can guess what that was about."

    "It is fairly obvious."
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    Yep. Humans can answer the question that's haunted the Geth since they achieved sapience.
     
    Drich said:
    ...with an additional 16% having committed suicide after being captured by the Geth...
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    Okay, no, BS. You want me to believe that sixteen percent of an entire civilization committed suicide due to a miscommunication? How have the Quarians survived as a species, in any era, if they're this prone to randomly taking their own lives? "Oops, we're out of space-bread, I guess I'd better kill myself." What was the death toll like at First Contact, when the Quarians assumed they were about to be invaded by aliens so one out of every seven of them just took their own lives on the spot?

    How does the Migrant fleet survive, when Captains keep deciding "Well, all hope is lost, I'd better just fly into a star"?

    There are no Quarians left in Geth space. None. If the Geth weren't deliberately killing Quarian civilians at some point in the conflict, then there should still have been a viable population (500+) inside Geth boarders. If the Quarians seriously had the military power to simultaneously destroy every city, town, orbital base, and spacecraft in their entire interstellar nation, then they sure as hel should have been able to destroy the Geth. (And, you know, conquer the entire f%#*ing galaxy, because that level of quickly deployable Biggatons is insane.)

    A genocide went down in this setting's background, and you seriously want me to believe that a key part of the event was one out of seven of the loosing group taking their own lives of their own accord.
     
    Quarians are xenophobic. About the only quarians we see in the games that are not to a considerable extent xenophobic are... actually it boils down to Zaal'Korris. Even Tali'Zorah needed time after being confronted with Legion to accept the idea that the geth aren't interested in a continued war, and the only reason Kal'Reegar went along with Shepard on Haestrom if Legion is present is because 1 more gun shooting at heretics would be a distinct improvement over his current situation.

    And Zaal'Korris approach wasn't so much 'we can make peace and get Rannoch back' as much as it was 'we fucked up epicly with the geth and we really should be trying to not poke at them too hard while trying to find a place to settle down and survive.'
     
    Necronion_Yith said:
    Perhaps this issue could be solved by taking some inspiration from Halo and seperating Anima into two different catagories, one being "Smart" Anima which are genuinely sentient and experience reality with a conscience and while also having "Dumb" Anima which can seem sentient but in reality are just well highly advanced programs or really smart animals kinda like the Huragok servitors.
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    I'm not sure how that addresses what I've been saying?
    Gindjurra said:
    WTF are you talking about? I never said anything of the sort. But since you mentioned it, how is an AI not also a subservient species?
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    I will not engage in such an obvious strawman argument. Next time actually address the points I brought up, don't just cherry pick some small part to blow completely out of context and get offended over.
    Jamie Roberts said:
    Okay, no, BS. You want me to believe that sixteen percent of an entire civilization committed suicide due to a miscommunication?
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    I'm pretty sure that reads as "16% of those captured commited suicide".
    Not "16% of the civilization committed suicide".
     
    Mgunh1 said:
    I'm pretty sure that reads as "16% of those captured commited suicide".
    Not "16% of the civilization committed suicide".
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    I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

    Drich said:
    "The Quarians, most notably. There was a significant fraction of Quarians that accepted and helped the Geth. Most were detained or killed by the Quarian government at the time. Furthermore, the so-called genocide committed by the Geth was far more even than the galaxy thinks. Some 36% of Quarians that died during the Geth War were actually killed by other Quarians, with an additional 16% having committed suicide after being captured by the Geth, and 27% simply never surrendering at all."
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    16% of their entire civilization, including children, impulsively committed suicide one at a time, faster than a f&^%ing von neuman swarm (that had already captured them!) could stop any of them to explain things.

    That's not possible.

    I'll also direct your attention to that same paragraph, where the term "so-called genocide" is used. Their entire civilization is dead.
     
    Mgunh1 said:
    I will not engage in such an obvious strawman argument. Next time actually address the points I brought up, don't just cherry pick some small part to blow completely out of context and get offended over.
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    I reiterate. WTF?!?

    I am not the one building straw men here, that would be you.

    Perhaps you are confused about what a straw man argument is? A straw man argument occurs when someone makes up a lie about what an opponent in an argument actually said that is obvious nonsense, then 'refutes' the false claim, then declares their opponent's argument defeated.

    Pointing out that you are claiming I said something I did not say is not a straw man argument. But you saying that I said something i did not say absolutely is a straw man argument!
     
    Jamie Roberts said:
    16% of their entire civilization, including children, impulsively committed suicide one at a time, faster than a f&^%ing von neuman swarm (that had already captured them!) could stop any of them to explain things.
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    That's not what that says, what it says is that of the Quarian deaths that occurred during the Geth War, 16% were the result of Quarians committing suicide after being captured by Geth. the majority of that 16% is probably comprised of soldiers and fanatics, not children.
     
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    The humans came not as conquerors, for they had no wish to dominate anyone. They came not as missionaries, they sought not to convert others to their way of thinking. No the humans came as the most dangerous, underhanded and deceitful thing in the known cosmos. They came to Citadel space as tourists. Because invaders you can deal with!!!!!


    This snippet was Inspired by this movie.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martians_Go_Home_(film)
     
    Jamie Roberts said:
    Okay, no, BS. You want me to believe that sixteen percent of an entire civilization committed suicide due to a miscommunication? How have the Quarians survived as a species, in any era, if they're this prone to randomly taking their own lives? "Oops, we're out of space-bread, I guess I'd better kill myself." What was the death toll like at First Contact, when the Quarians assumed they were about to be invaded by aliens so one out of every seven of them just took their own lives on the spot?

    How does the Migrant fleet survive, when Captains keep deciding "Well, all hope is lost, I'd better just fly into a star"?

    There are no Quarians left in Geth space. None. If the Geth weren't deliberately killing Quarian civilians at some point in the conflict, then there should still have been a viable population (500+) inside Geth boarders. If the Quarians seriously had the military power to simultaneously destroy every city, town, orbital base, and spacecraft in their entire interstellar nation, then they sure as hel should have been able to destroy the Geth. (And, you know, conquer the entire f%#*ing galaxy, because that level of quickly deployable Biggatons is insane.)

    A genocide went down in this setting's background, and you seriously want me to believe that a key part of the event was one out of seven of the loosing group taking their own lives of their own accord.
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    Humans cultures do the same thing when you get fanatical zealots facing imminent defeat. One of the reasons Quarians are so likable in that series, is they are the least alien aliens, to us human players. Despite flipped chirality and weird fingers/toes, they pretty much are us.

    Even more rational people might think along the lines of "Okay, we know they're evil monsters that want to kill us, we know beyond doubt that they're liars and deceivers -- just look at how they claim to want peace but shoot back when we shoot at them! So the gods only know what horrors they plan for us if they captured us instead of immediately killing us?! I don't know about you, but I've got some plastic explosive in my boot that they can't detect. I don't have a detonator, but if you eat the stuff you'll be dead in ten minutes. And I have enough to share."

    Quarians do commit suicide when running low on food and they have no option but to cut the number of people needing it. That's one of the reasons for their Pilgrimage -- bring back resources so their elders don't have to. Captains don't fly into stars in despair, where did you get that from? Anyone who would fly into a star out of depression -- or even just off themselves because they are depressed -- would never make Captain rank.

    You say that no Quarians being left in Geth space must mean the Geth killed them all? I counter with: Which Quarians would survive between the ones who suicided to avoid imagined torture, the ones that fought to the death, and the ones nuked from orbit by their own people as mercy kills to 'save' them from the Geth? It might even have been a major contributing factor to the military defeat of the organics, if the Quarian fleet prioritized strategic kinetic strikes on captured Quarian population centers over shooting at Geth ships!

    Why would it require galaxy-conquering firepower? Even the weakest Mass Effect single-planet polity outguns the US or USSR in the height of the cold war, and either one could have included every square inch of habitable land on Earth with overlapping primary kill zones with their nuclear arsenals. And don't forget, the Quarians had at least half a dozen worlds at that point.
     
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    They also didn't have to completely wipe out the Quarians, the survivors could have been irradiated or otherwise sick. Perhaps there just weren't enough to produce breeding stock after the proverbial dust settled. A generation or two of survivors maybe, but not enough to survive until canon.
     
    Even if there had been survivors, it's quite possible that the geth supporting quarian population did get killed to the last, and that whatever survivors there were had to content with massive infrastructure and climate damage as a result of the war while the geth were monopolizing all resources just to prevent the collapse of their own infrastructure networks and to enforce their quarantine and territory claims. It's quite possible that any survivors either didn't think of asking the geth for the resources necessary to survive and instead only went for violence, or that if they did ask the geth simply didn't assign them any because they already had an extant surviving population in the galaxy, and this one was not shooting at them all the time.
     
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