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Peccata Patris, Filius Redentor [NGE]

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MarshalGraves said:
She doesn't know the pecking order just yet. All she knows is Shinji's a Captain because he saw combat first. She's...not going to be happy later in the story.
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It does seem unhealthy to me to establish a pecking order among the pilots, really. And really, Section 1 seems unnecessary. "Pilots" -why does that need an own section, for the, uh, three people who are pilots? 1 and 4 should maybe just be folded into "Operations" as per canon. Having an adult section leader is probably helpful anyway, and additionally won't unnecessarily bruise any pilot egos...

Also, a Sergeant as a Section Leader? Man, this NERV's ranking policy still seems kinda wonky. Though, granted, not as wonky as Misato starting out as a Captain...
 
Susano said:
It does seem unhealthy to me to establish a pecking order among the pilots, really. And really, Section 1 seems unnecessary. "Pilots" -why does that need an own section, for the, uh, three people who are pilots? 1 and 4 should maybe just be folded into "Operations" as per canon. Having an adult section leader is probably helpful anyway, and additionally won't unnecessarily bruise any pilot egos...

Also, a Sergeant as a Section Leader? Man, this NERV's ranking policy still seems kinda wonky. Though, granted, not as wonky as Misato starting out as a Captain...
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The 'section' labelled as pilots is technically folded into Operations in -reality-, but on paper, it's its own section for crew assignments. And by 'crew' assignments, I mean the crews that handle each mech on its own. These ain't fighter jets. The layout like this keeps the 'crats happy, and when the bean-counters are happy, your chain of command is happy.

As to why there's a pecking order among pilots, even a fireteam (usually around four soldiers) in the Army has a pecking order. This is so that in case communication with Command gets cut off, or something interferes with mission-critical information, -somebody- can make a call in the field.

As to Sergeant Stacker...he's more than just a simple sergeant, I just haven't figured out which grade to give him. Was debating Master Sergeant or Sergeant Major, but there's pros and cons, there. Well...-a- con. I'd have to go back and add 'Master' in front of his rank, or 'Major' behind it, three separate times. You can get away with calling a Technical, Staff, or Sergeant First Class by just 'Sergeant', and technically, you -could- do it to any of the higher ranks, but then it's in such poor taste you're extremely likely to cop shovel duty for a week. As to why it's just a Sergeant running the training section, he's their DI.

EDIT: Decided on Sergeant First Class. He's 30, so this is pushing it by a couple of years, but he's a remarkable NCO, a bang-up soldier, and a damn good man, so this is his first posting as an NCOIC.
 
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MarshalGraves said:
As to Sergeant Stacker...he's more than just a simple sergeant, I just haven't figured out which grade to give him. Was debating Master Sergeant or Sergeant Major, but there's pros and cons, there. Well...-a- con. I'd have to go back and add 'Master' in front of his rank, or 'Major' behind it, three separate times. You can get away with calling a Technical, Staff, or Sergeant First Class by just 'Sergeant', and technically, you -could- do it to any of the higher ranks, but then it's in such poor taste you're extremely likely to cop shovel duty for a week. As to why it's just a Sergeant running the training section, he's their DI.
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I like the sound of 'Sergeant-at-Arms' myself. But Discworld probably has something to do with that.
 
MarshalGraves said:
As to Sergeant Stacker...he's more than just a simple sergeant, I just haven't figured out which grade to give him. Was debating Master Sergeant or Sergeant Major, but there's pros and cons, there. Well...-a- con. I'd have to go back and add 'Master' in front of his rank, or 'Major' behind it, three separate times. You can get away with calling a Technical, Staff, or Sergeant First Class by just 'Sergeant', and technically, you -could- do it to any of the higher ranks, but then it's in such poor taste you're extremely likely to cop shovel duty for a week. As to why it's just a Sergeant running the training section, he's their DI.
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I mean, what grade of sergeant doesn't matter much, ultimately. He's still a NCO leading a section, one of the the primary divisions of NERV. Just give him a commission, Gendo! :p
 
MisterHalt said:
I like the sound of 'Sergeant-at-Arms' myself. But Discworld probably has something to do with that.
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Thanks for spoilering that picture! Also, yeah, while I like Discworld, unfortunately, Sergeant-at-Arms has a nobility/knightly thing going for it, and while -everyone in NERV would disagree with me-, NERV is not a monarchy, duchy, or barony.

Anyway, I went with SFC, as that's the first grade of Sergeant that can be an NCOIC.

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Susano said:
I mean, what grade of sergeant doesn't matter much, ultimately. He's still a NCO leading a section, one of the the primary divisions of NERV. Just give him a commission, Gendo! :p
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There's a reason you don't put officers in charge of training soldiers. He's a Drill Instructor in charge of their training, not the bean-counter responsible for making sure all their simulators came in and are the right model. That's Gendo!

Also, what grade of Sergeant he is -does- matter, as you can (and do) have NCOIC, or 'Non-Commissioned Officer In Charge'. This is basically a soldier running a section -like- a soldier, rather than a REMF running a section like a REMF while acting like he's a soldier.

In short, the officers are supposed to provide strategy, while NCOs are supposed to provide tactics, and sections or bases run by these two differing (but similar) schools of thought can be wildly different. You do -not- want a long-term strategist trying to get results out of your soldiers -now-. The build-up would be too slow, too gradual. Nor, however, do you want a short-term tactician training your soldiers for an engagement that's eighteen months away. You'd burn them out -way- too damn fast.

*coughs* ....Sorry, is my work-for-a-living-bias showing again?
 
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MarshalGraves said:
*coughs* ....Sorry, is my work-for-a-living-bias showing again?
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Heh. Well, it's just, I'd imagine a section leader would have to be a "bean counter" by default. He can have actual drill sergeants below him. Plus, a Lieutenant is still low-ranked enough to do the whole drilling thing anyway. And in any case, why drilling? They already have the pilots. All they need is simulators so they can train combat, so that the pilots stay in shape. So basically, you'd just need someone who keeps the simulators running. A technician :p
 
Susano said:
Heh. Well, it's just, I'd imagine a section leader would have to be a "bean counter" by default. He can have actual drill sergeants below him. Plus, a Lieutenant is still low-ranked enough to do the whole drilling thing anyway. And in any case, why drilling? They already have the pilots. All they need is simulators so they can train combat, so that the pilots stay in shape. So basically, you'd just need someone who keeps the simulators running. A technician :p
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They do, indeed, already have the pilots. Three of them. Their are more mecha under construction, that's what the EX-00 is for, actually. And there was mention in this chapter about a certain project that's probably going to see some screen-time...oooh, I'd say after the Ramiel battle or so. Probably before the arrival of the UN Fleet.

As to the drilling....yeah, they're pilots. They can move the mechs. That doesn't mean they know how to move the mechs to get the most bang for their buck. Most people could pick up a gun and pull the trigger, but it's the ones -trained- to do it that save the world.

And then there's anime. *hangs his head*

But anyway, Sergeant Pentecost is an NCOIC. Whether or not he remains that way is to be seen. He could be the type who's too damned good at his job to be cut loose, but keeps turning down promotions because he 'likes his uniform'.

As to simulators and training in combat....that's next chapter.
 
Susano said:
Heh. Well, it's just, I'd imagine a section leader would have to be a "bean counter" by default. He can have actual drill sergeants below him. Plus, a Lieutenant is still low-ranked enough to do the whole drilling thing anyway. And in any case, why drilling? They already have the pilots. All they need is simulators so they can train combat, so that the pilots stay in shape. So basically, you'd just need someone who keeps the simulators running. A technician :p
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You can always train more. Practice makes perfect practice. Perfect practice makes perfect.
 
I imagine training to do these things in person would have a beneficial effect on doing them while piloting a mech. Plus getting in the simulator wouldn't teach them mindset and thought process any better than training in person.
 
A technician wouldn't know the finer points of aiming or hand-to-hand combat; a drill sergeant WOULD. Yeah, you could argue that technicians would be vital to using the simulators, and you'd probably be right, but having at least one drill sergeant would help them actually fight PROPERLY, as opposed to doing things that feel right but are less efficient than proper technique.

Basically, they're pretty much guaranteed to have both technicians and trainers (in the form of drill sergeants) in that department; who's in charge is pretty much a matter of semantics.
 
Of course, that's another issue. Trainers can train you because they know about the stuff; but there never have been previous EVA mecha generations, so the three pilots are the human beings who will know best about it. Who could even teach them? ;)

So, really, I think all they can do to improve their skills is not learning (as there is no one to teach them), but to train everything over and over again...
 
Marksmanship and small-unit infantry tactics would still be applicable, though. In fact you wouldn't even need simulators to get some useful training done: Just give them rifles with comparable handling characteristics to the ones the Evas use (scaled down appropriately of course) and a MILES system and have them go up against each other, or a volunteer in a kaiju costume or something. Maybe it'd be a good idea to make them prove they could handle themselves in a (simulated) combat environment before sticking them in the simulators, even.
 
Ehhh, that depends on how the synchro works. Because clearly, it isn't automatically "what the body does, the EVA does" in the series. At various times, all pilots are shown to move inside their entry-plugs independently of how their EVA moves at that time. And Shinji could rock with EVA-01 despite never having done any combat training whatsoever before. Sure, against Sachiel Yui took over, but against Shamshel he won. Personal combat is hence probably very different from EVA combat. That's why I stressed simulators; I do think you can ultimately only reasonably train in them.

(or you clear a *huge ass* area and have the EVAs run wild in there, of course)
 
Undoubtedly. But a thorough grounding in the theory and practice of infantry combat certainly can't hurt. And doing that simultaneously with teaching them the basics of how to even get the thing to move is probably not optimal; at the very least it'd be worth alternating between simulator sessions and 'field' exercises in a scale model of Tokyo-3 at first.
 
I know this is basically a weird, nitpicky tangent, but still, looking at the arguments given, I feel the need to argue them :p

Isn't "a scale model Tokyo-3" basically an analogue, non-electronic simulator? ;) Might as well do it all-electronic, because muscle memory isn't really applicable here.

Also, consider Shinji's special circumstances here if he has to walk...
 
Hey, discussion is discussion. Long as people keep the junk in the trunk and insults far away, I actively encourage debate and discussion.

That said, the mechs in canon are EVA. These are not. Worse, no two mechs in this story have exactly the same interface. You'll all see what Stacker is here for soon enough.
 
So basically, your argument against including drill sergeants amounts to "they're pilots, so the skills don't apply to them," right @Susano?

My main counterargument to this (likely flawed) mentality is as follows: Even if they can't make their EVAs/robots/whatever-they-happen-to-be-piloting-in-the-story move quite as easily as they can their own bodies, learning to fight on foot will still help them pilot better because, knowing how it's SUPPOSED to be done, they're better able to translate that into their piloting techniques. Easiest example would have to be "if you want to hit, brace the butt of the rifle on your shoulder."

Completely different consideration from "actually getting to their machines" (which is likely more-or-less invalid, all considered, since A: they're KIDS, and B: they're less likely to get invaded in this story than canon, I expect... at least large-scale invasions), though that one's worth some thought as well.
 
Once again, this depends on your assumptions how synchro works. Seeing as they can move their body totally independent of how their EVA works, I would assume moving the EVA is like moving a set of extra appendages (Shinji first moves EVA-01 against Sachiel by consciously thinking of moving the EVA, not by moving his feet), in which case training to coordinate those body parts which you already have will be of little use. In that case, you can really only training moving your EVA if you ARE in one, or in a simulation telling you you are in one.
 
You misunderstood my argument (somehow- I could swear I was pretty clear). I'm saying that, if they know how to do things properly in person, they can then make the EVA do those things better PRECISELY BECAUSE they control it through their conscious thoughts. I mean (inverting one of your previous arguments here), if you don't know how to do something yourself, you can't really tell someone else how to do it, right? And that's what "piloting EVA" amounts to- you tell it how to move (telepathically or something) and it follows your instructions (in theory).
 
Only at the bottom of page 1, but wanted to put this down before I have to leave the office for the night and lose all these quotes that I tabbed as I read.
MarshalGraves said:
Major Misato Kaji's face.
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Oh ho! :) Good move, Misato!
MarshalGraves said:
I AM COME.
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Nobody Dies nod!
MarshalGraves said:
"....You're a louse, Commander Ikari."
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....Rei, why are you channeling R. Dorothy? You have blue hair, not red.
MarshalGraves said:
She hadn't blessed him with the revelation she'd had on the way back to Japan, so he didn't have her -permission- to-
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~raised eyebrow~ Revelation, mm? I speculate...
MarshalGraves said:
"Oh, and one more thing! DON'T YOU FUCKING SCARE ME LIKE THAT AGAIN, YOU BAKA! WHEN YOU GET BACK DOWN HERE, I'M GONNA TEAR YOU A NEW ONE FOR MAKING ME BREAK CHARACTER, YOU IDIOT!"
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Someone's been hanging around Asuka for a long time. And 'breaking character'? You're... playing R. Dorothy too? o_O
MarshalGraves said:
"Subcommander Kaji...I believe Liutenants Ikari and Soryu
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MarshalGraves said:
When Liutenant Ikari was injured,
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Lieutenants. I had to type that out a lot in ACoS.
MarshalGraves said:
he didn't even know what children -were-, and thought her an adult small person. It...ended badly for the poor boy, by all accounts, though Asuka had seemed to develop an 'I'm an adult complex' immediately and forever thereafter
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....That must have been an odd one. And how did Shinji manage to... uh... incorrectly 'adult' her, since I don't really see him trying anything 'naughty'?
MarshalGraves said:
when Kozo Fuyutsuki retired
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This feels... weird. Fuyutsuki is there in canon partly because he knows SEELE will have him killed the moment he's out of sight if not, but also because despite his age, he knows the end is very damn near, and there's no point in retiring if it only means a few months! I... guess this Gendo has convinced him he can retire, since Gendo is going to make sure they world keeps going?
MarshalGraves said:
problem is, these ADAMnations are only detectable by those born under ADAM's radiation atmosphere, which has blanketed the planet since Second Impact."
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Wild guessing: You can always handwave that Misato was exposed to enough of them by virtue of being at Ground Zero that she can be a Pilot too if there's an emergency. Just supplying an idea.
MarshalGraves said:
Asuka had held him
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!!
MarshalGraves said:
Richard Langley's -head- when the man had refused to press charges on the harasser.
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...dude, WTF? A guy just tried to 'get handsy' with your thirteen year old daughter. Why aren't you pressing charges?
MarshalGraves said:
he's her motivation, her rock, and no, he is not her boyfriend.
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:cry:
MarshalGraves said:
Possibly yet. (Spoilers!)
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:)

More to follow when I can.
 
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