The problem there is getting a good donor, and keeping in mind that he was a subject of the original, un-nerfed Ritual.

After all, we've already seen that a lot of Dragons from other Planes are considered Proto-Drakes in comparison to Azerothian Dragons. Low-to-Middling Intelligence and Magical Ability. He would need a Donor from a Dragon Species that is at least as intelligent and Magical Capable as his current species, since the ritual reforges you down to everything but the absolute depths of the soul, including the mind. The wrong species could very well see him trapped in a feral body without a mind able to comprehend that it used to be a highly intelligent being.

The only Dragons he has access to that fit the bill right now are the D&D Dragons, and the Chromantics and Metallics come with their own whole host of issues. The other best bet would be Ugin, and he f**ked off with Bolas to an isolated sub-plane for the next thousand years so that he can play the part of Jailor till Bolas dies of natural causes.

And without the full ritual, even if he does get a good species, he can't keep his magical development between the two bodies because of the nerfs they had to make to make it castable without The Aspect of Magic. He'd lose his Azerothian magic in the transition, and gain none of the innate magic of his new body.
Then don't be a Dragon.

Contrary to what the Titan programing would like him to think, there are a lot of species out there just straight up better then Azerothian Dragons. Personally I would go with Elder Scroll's Elves, because they're almost all of the pluses of being an Azerothian dragon without any of the minuses.

As to the magic, so what? Planeswalker magic can duplicate everything of note that Azerothian magic can do. Heck, there's a better then average chance that's even what's keeping him from progressing further with his Planeswalker magic.
 
Last edited:
Then don't be a Dragon.

Contrary to what the Titan programing would like him to think, there are a lot of species out there just straight up better then Azerothian Dragons. Personally I would go with Elder Scroll's Elves, because they're almost all of the pluses of being an Azerothian dragon without any of the minuses.

As to the magic, so what? Planeswalker magic can duplicate everything of note that Azerothian magic can do. Heck, there's a better then average chance that's even what's keeping him from progressing further with his Planeswalker magic.

I would kinda have to disagree. The Titan Programming we just learned about aside, Dragons are physically superior to everything I can learn about the Elves. The only area they really match up is lifespan, and that is not a very close matchup. Dragons, especially Azerothian Dragons, are just straight-up immortal. Old Age does not happen. They just get bigger and stronger. ES Elves can live for a few thousand years if they are lucky, but do ultimately grow old. Though most kick the bucket of other causes before they hit their first thousand.

Which kinda defeats the whole point of him going through the effort to help Sheila become a Dragon so they have effectively forever together.

Past that, Elves are physically inferior to a Dragon in every way. It takes as much effort to kill an Elf as any other mortal, while a Dragon? A Dragon can face-tank a hell of a lot of damage before they die. Dragons are faster, tougher, stronger, can fly, have superior senses, and are literally apex predators.

This is before the fact that Azerothian Dragons are all naturalborn magic users that are, in general, stronger then their mortal counterparts by a fair margin. Elves might be magically inclined, but A-Dragons are magically dominant by design. There is several precedents showing us just how outclassed mortals can be in comparison to Dragons, and why it takes small armies of adventurers to take down one dragon.

As for Azerothian Magic holding back the MC? I don't really believe that. Several times it's been shown and insisted that the only thing really holding him back magically is the fact that he literally started from nothing and has to learn stuff that it takes other Dragons 50 years or so to do in barely a fraction of that amount of time. That, and the fact that he slacks off his magical studies and practice in order to focus on artificing and enchantment, something he is extremely good at and does not struggle with. We just had Alexstrasza not long ago tell him to stop avoiding his magic practice. And when he did stop avoiding it? He started to show marked improvement.
 
I would kinda have to disagree. The Titan Programming we just learned about aside, Dragons are physically superior to everything I can learn about the Elves. The only area they really match up is lifespan, and that is not a very close matchup. Dragons, especially Azerothian Dragons, are just straight-up immortal. Old Age does not happen. They just get bigger and stronger. ES Elves can live for a few thousand years if they are lucky, but do ultimately grow old. Though most kick the bucket of other causes before they hit their first thousand.

Which kinda defeats the whole point of him going through the effort to help Sheila become a Dragon so they have effectively forever together.

Past that, Elves are physically inferior to a Dragon in every way. It takes as much effort to kill an Elf as any other mortal, while a Dragon? A Dragon can face-tank a hell of a lot of damage before they die. Dragons are faster, tougher, stronger, can fly, have superior senses, and are literally apex predators.

This is before the fact that Azerothian Dragons are all naturalborn magic users that are, in general, stronger then their mortal counterparts by a fair margin. Elves might be magically inclined, but A-Dragons are magically dominant by design. There is several precedents showing us just how outclassed mortals can be in comparison to Dragons, and why it takes small armies of adventurers to take down one dragon.

As for Azerothian Magic holding back the MC? I don't really believe that. Several times it's been shown and insisted that the only thing really holding him back magically is the fact that he literally started from nothing and has to learn stuff that it takes other Dragons 50 years or so to do in barely a fraction of that amount of time. That, and the fact that he slacks off his magical studies and practice in order to focus on artificing and enchantment, something he is extremely good at and does not struggle with. We just had Alexstrasza not long ago tell him to stop avoiding his magic practice. And when he did stop avoiding it? He started to show marked improvement.
There's an important point I feel like you might be forgetting about Elder Scroll's Elves.

Like all creatures of Nirn, so long as they put in the work, they have, for all intents and purposes, no real upper limit.

Mind you, I'm also not saying they're the best option he might have ready access too. That would be, assuming he could convince Alexis to lead him to where he found them, Angel's. Or the best option amongst the various flesh and blood creatures of the planes he's visited period. Which would be the true Aedra/Daedra. Just that that's the option I would go for with the one's easily available to him.
 
It isn't like you need to be a specific race for specific power-ups, rituals and stuff will do just fine for things like immortality, and for a planeswalker getting more magical power tends to involve forging more mana bonds with lands (something Atregos has seemed to be neglecting the importance of, partly due to other duties, but also partly due to artificer nerd mode). IIRC, one of the older Duels of the Planeswalkers games had it's story involve you seeking out ingredients to an immortality ritual, and those don't have to be as hard to pull off as Bolas made it seem to Liliana (although in Liliana's case, she was also seeking a bit of a power-up in the process to recover some of her oldwalker power-level and trying to de-age, as she was pretty old physically when she went to Bolas for help). It's more a question of finding the right magic with the right lack of side effects and that has reasonable costs on the right plane. It's also a matter of recognizing the significance of something you find, something that Atregos has been bad at.

If he was to seek out help getting powered up from other planeswalkers, one of them might recommend Arcavios, which does have it's own version of elder dragons as potential conversion options (if one could be convinced), on top of a sufficient library of spells and magical lore to interest many planeswalkers, although finding what he wants may be difficult, given the nature of the Biblioplex, it should still be a great way to expand his repertoire of spells.

He'll probably just decide that it's too much effort for too little potential benefit given the Titans' relative reclusiveness to do anything about the Titan obedience thing after this adventure though.
 
He'll probably just decide that it's too much effort for too little potential benefit given the Titans' relative reclusiveness to do anything about the Titan obedience thing after this adventure though.
If it was just the Titan obedience thing I would probably agree.

After all, even with Dragonflight Legacies showing us that it's not just the Titan's themselves that can use their control systems. It would probably take someone either finding a Titan Artifact or kidnapping a Dragon and studying it for a few years before they could figure out just what those controls were. And neither of those things are very likely outside of Azeroth... Well... Except for Sargeras and whatever plane he ended up on after being dumped into the blind eternities...

But there's also all the Titan programing constantly effecting his mind. And now that he's aware of it, that's the real problem.
 
Except for Sargeras and whatever plane he ended up on after being dumped into the blind eternities...

Sargeras is very, very likely dead. It is hard to stress how much the Blind Eternities hate anything ever. Being exposed to the B-E is a very swift way to just not exist anymore. And the only way to survive them is to be a Planeswalker. That is why the MC's soulstone trick was so interesting, because it was the first way they'd seen for a non-planeswalker to survive a trip through the B-E without being erased. It's a pheomenoa that no one is exempt to.

If you are not a Planeswalker, and you enter the Eternities? That is it. You die. Game over. Do not pass go, do not collect 200. Not even Gods are immune to being Thanos'ed out of existence if they get dumped into the B-E.
 
Sargeras is very, very likely dead. It is hard to stress how much the Blind Eternities hate anything ever. Being exposed to the B-E is a very swift way to just not exist anymore. And the only way to survive them is to be a Planeswalker. That is why the MC's soulstone trick was so interesting, because it was the first way they'd seen for a non-planeswalker to survive a trip through the B-E without being erased. It's a pheomenoa that no one is exempt to.

If you are not a Planeswalker, and you enter the Eternities? That is it. You die. Game over. Do not pass go, do not collect 200. Not even Gods are immune to being Thanos'ed out of existence if they get dumped into the B-E.
Certain Gods and Godlike beings can survive travel through the blind eternities.

Inorganic creatures can also survive traveling through it, at least for a time. This is confirmed via the planeswalkers Jaing Yanggu and Mu Yanling who travel around with Mowu. (We actually see it happen in War of the Spark: Ashes)

The fate of ghost's and other spiritual entities is up in the air, with the general feeling amongst official writers seeming to be sometimes yes sometimes no.

And of course the Eldrazi lived inside the Blind Eternities.

Also it's not really being Thanos'ed out of existence or erased so much as being torn apart by the chaotic energies of the location. Like, for example, a person standing inside a razor wind cyclone. It's why Ugin was able to somewhat protect Bolas from the effects by physically shielding Bolas with his own body.
 
37
Chromie struggled, growling in protest as she tried to pull back out, but Nozdormus' massive paw kept her head pinned to the ground.

He looked mildly annoyed, "Stay still," he ordered her and she relaxed slowly.

Alexis darted in and smacked her hard with that stunning spell she had and Chromie went to sleepy sleepy land.

"Thank you, Nozdormu," I told him respectfully, looking up at the much larger dragon.

He snorted and nodded, "Of course," he said, "There is a reason we don't go here," he continued and lifted his paw off Chromie to get comfortable again, "As young Chromie here just discovered."

Young. She was a Wyrm, making her at least a thousand years old.

"Question," I said, "...Where in the timeline exactly are you from?"

Nozdormu looked amused, "Whos? Yours, mine and objectively or subjectively? And which timeline?"

I suppressed a small whine and backed off, "...Forget I asked."

Fricking Bronzes, seriously.

I turned away to wait for Chromie to wake back up, moving over to Sheila, "Hey..." I said softly, "Sorry for-"

"Don't worry about it," Sheila answered and bumped her nose against mine, "We figured it out from Chromie. It's why we sent Alexis alone to track you and Ren down."

"Just a good thing I tried to get a stunning spell working somewhat with mana," Alexis commented as she dropped her bag onto the floor with a groan before sinking down next to it, laying back on the grass.

"I just wish you had used it on me," I grumbled and moved to settle down, leaning softly against Sheila as she laid down next to me, "At least my jaw would have been happier."

Ren laid down by my other side and I set my head down, Sheila resting her head across the back of my neck.

"Where's Wrathion anyway?" I then asked, opening an eye to look at Umbria.

"Hunting," she answered, "I ate yesterday."

"Nobody should go anywhere alone," I grumbled before I sighed, "Whatever, I spent the last week flying, I'm too tired."

That earned me a lick at the back of the head from somebody. Sheila or Ren I'm not sure, but it was relaxing.

Chromie started to slowly stir awake, her wings shifting before she blinked, slowly raising her head, looking around before she looked up at Nozdormu and then over at us, "Oh."

"Oh indeed," Ren commented, raising her head to look at her.

"...Which is why we don't go here," Chromie said, shooting an annoyed looking Nozdormu an apologetic look before turning to us again, "Do we really need to do this?"

"We do," I said, watching, my eyes half open, "Luckily, I have a plan."

"You do?" Alexis asked, propping herself up on her elbows, "Which is?"

"I go on alone, in mortal form, beneath every stealth enchantment and Illusion I can pull off."

Sheila rumbled in a growl next to me, "No you don't."

"Yes I do," I said and looked at her, "I have to go, nobody else does. Besides, it will be easier to sneak through if I'm on my own."

Wrathion swept down and landed, wings beating and sending leaves flying, "You can't go alone," he said as he looked at me.

"How much of that did you hear?" I asked.

"Enough," he said and moved over to settle down next to Umbria, "That I know you want to go back on your own. Somebody else has to go with you."

I shook my head, "It'll make it much harder to-"

"We all know how you are when you work at enchanting," Wrathion interrupted, "Especially something advanced. You lose track of the world around you. You need somebody with you to keep an eye out."

I glared at him.

What's worse, he was right.

"I should go," Chromie said, "I'm small and I can help make sure the timeline remains intact."

"Wouldn't matter in this case," I told her, "As we're not going to get spotted. And if we had to run, could you keep up with me."

Chromie snorted, "No, but I'm easy to carry. Even if we're not spotted, I'm still the right choice."

"She's right," Sheila said quietly, "I want to go, but Chromie is the best choice."

"Okay," I admitted before I looked at Chromie, "But I'm making you some sneaky sneaky gear. Wrathion, I'm going to need some material to work with."

"Of course. Just say what and how much, we'll find it."
 
"I go on alone, in mortal form, beneath every stealth enchantment and Illusion I can pull off."
This makes absolutely no sense...

The Titans have already proven to be better then him at every single level. So why in the world would he think his enchantments would be able to hide anybody from them?

Hell, it's even a bad idea mechanically. Because you know the easiest way to see through illusions? Regular old Detect Magic.
 
This makes absolutely no sense...

The Titans have already proven to be better then him at every single level. So why in the world would he think his enchantments would be able to hide anybody from them?

Hell, it's even a bad idea mechanically. Because you know the easiest way to see through illusions? Regular old Detect Magic.
titan programming perhaps?

or just plain old idiocy?
maybe both?
 
Thinking about it... Why is he even trying to go in himself? Why not just send a summons or artifact drone that he can remote puppet?
 
I could see an argument for taking Alexis certainly but like on the other hand if something goes wrong she's the best backup plan as we just saw. As for not doing it by remote the whole point is to do an extremely intricate bit of magic that sort of thing can't be done by remote.
 
Thinking about it... Why is he even trying to go in himself? Why not just send a summons or artifact drone that he can remote puppet?

Because he needs to add himself as a Authorized User, and he can't do that remotely. The whole reason they are here is because the systems ability to scan and detect who is and who isn't an authorized user is functionally unbeatable. They managed to almost do it by trying to dupe the system into believing the MC was Malygos, who is authorized, but his Planeswalker Spark adds a detectable blip to his soul that means he failed the check.

So now he has to do the second-to-last resort option of going back to when the system was being constructed and wasn't yet locked down, and adding himself as a new super-user. Which means his actual, physical presence has to be there so it can scan him and add him to the database.

As for why going alone...I can see it to a degree. They already known that if the Titan is still there, and if they get caught, the Titan can just tell them to fuck off and the mental programming will kick in. If he goes alone and is caught, then he is the only one they have to track down and knock out of a trance. The more Dragons they send, the more the risk that the party gets effectively wiped as they get sent off into the world in a mind-controlled state.

And while Alexis is immune, the whole reason she wasn't with them the first time is because humans don't exist yet on Azeroth. A group of Dragons can wander around easily enough without issue because they can theoretically be in the area doing stuff, but if Alexis is caught with them, shit will hit the fan because that is an instant red flag to the Titans that something is going on, because there is an unrecognized lifeform doing something in a Titan Facility.
 
And while Alexis is immune, the whole reason she wasn't with them the first time is because humans don't exist yet on Azeroth. A group of Dragons can wander around easily enough without issue because they can theoretically be in the area doing stuff, but if Alexis is caught with them, shit will hit the fan because that is an instant red flag to the Titans that something is going on, because there is an unrecognized lifeform doing something in a Titan Facility.
That was also the reason for them to not be going in mortal form, so the argument that because humans don't exist yet means she shouldn't be going doesn't exactly hold water given that his plan is to go in mortal form.
 
That was also the reason for them to not be going in mortal form, so the argument that because humans don't exist yet means she shouldn't be going doesn't exactly hold water given that his plan is to go in mortal form.

For the first time, they were going with a "Be Natural" plan of infiltrating, unaware that a Titan would be actively working on the system to catch them and send them off.

Now for the second time, he's going in maximum stealth mode. Every last means of obfuscation going full tilt. The mortal form is likely because it's less effort to hide while being significantly smaller. The more people he brings, the harder it will be to be stealthy, since he has to obscure more people. He already has Chromie going with him, and will have to stealth her along with himself.

And if worst comes to worst, the MC can at least break stealth by turning back into a Dragon and have to weasel his way out somehow. If Alexis is there and stealth breaks, it will instantly turn into a fight.
 
On the other hand, if a fight does break out she's also the only one that actually could fight a Titan.

Yes, but the hope is to not fight at all. A fight would mean a critical breakdown of their efforts to not fuck with the timestream all that much beyond what is absolutely critical to their mission. Having a human duking it out with a Titan long before humans are supposed to exist is very much the last thing they want.

At least if the MC gets caught in Human form, he can, like I said, just transform back and try to play it off somehow.

If Alexis was there, then it would even be worse actually, because if they get caught by said Titan, he can just command them to apprehend her and suddenly she's fighting a Titan and several Dragons.

Not good odds.

This time at least they are going in with awareness that the Titan might still be present. They can work around him if need be and try to avoid him if they spot him before vice versa.
 
Because he needs to add himself as a Authorized User, and he can't do that remotely. The whole reason they are here is because the systems ability to scan and detect who is and who isn't an authorized user is functionally unbeatable. They managed to almost do it by trying to dupe the system into believing the MC was Malygos, who is authorized, but his Planeswalker Spark adds a detectable blip to his soul that means he failed the check.

So now he has to do the second-to-last resort option of going back to when the system was being constructed and wasn't yet locked down, and adding himself as a new super-user. Which means his actual, physical presence has to be there so it can scan him and add him to the database.

As for why going alone...I can see it to a degree. They already known that if the Titan is still there, and if they get caught, the Titan can just tell them to fuck off and the mental programming will kick in. If he goes alone and is caught, then he is the only one they have to track down and knock out of a trance. The more Dragons they send, the more the risk that the party gets effectively wiped as they get sent off into the world in a mind-controlled state.

And while Alexis is immune, the whole reason she wasn't with them the first time is because humans don't exist yet on Azeroth. A group of Dragons can wander around easily enough without issue because they can theoretically be in the area doing stuff, but if Alexis is caught with them, shit will hit the fan because that is an instant red flag to the Titans that something is going on, because there is an unrecognized lifeform doing something in a Titan Facility.
He's trying to add a hidden backdoor into the system.

Not add himself as a superuser.

Adding himself to the database is actually the last thing he wants to do because of how easy such a thing would be to detect.
 
He's trying to add a hidden backdoor into the system.

Not add himself as a superuser.

Adding himself to the database is actually the last thing he wants to do because of how easy such a thing would be to detect.

I would like to point your attention here:

"Because I want to go back to when this place was constructed. It will let me affect the machine before the security is there, let me add myself onto the security."

"No, absolutely not," Chromie said, "At this point it would break the timeline. If you were added to the security, you would already be accepted."

"Unless it was a hidden one," I said, "One I haven't tried yet. Something special nobody would test unless they knew about it."

And here:

"Don't worry, we will be," I told her seriously, "With just a little bit of luck, nobody will even see us. Just need to get in, sneakily register me as an authorized user and then we'll be back. Couple of hours at most."

Where he very clearly states he is trying to add himself as an authorized user. Using superuser was bit much, but still.
 
I would like to point your attention here:

And here:

Where he very clearly states he is trying to add himself as an authorized user. Using superuser was bit much, but still.
Apologies, I must have blanked and just assumed he meant a backdoor there because of how utterly stupid what he described was. :facepalm:

To wit, it's the digital security equivalent of breaking a window to get into a locked house, running over to unlock the house's front door, cleaning up all the broken glass, jumping back out the broken window, replacing the broken window, then entering the house through the now unlocked front door.

Basically an over convoluted over complicated mess.

This is because once you're in the system you're in the system. Meaning you can do something like say, add a tiny bit of code that bypasses the login entirely and just lets someone directly back into the system when they do the funky chicken dance on the scanning platform.
 
Last edited:
Apologies, I must have blanked and just assumed he meant a backdoor there because of how utterly stupid what he described was. :facepalm:

To wit, it's the digital security equivalent of breaking a window to get into a locked house, running over to unlock the house's front door, jumping back out the broken window, cleaning up all the broken glass, replacing the broken window, then entering the house through the now unlocked front door.

Basically an over convoluted over complicated mess.

This is because once you're in the system you're in the system. Meaning you can do something like say, add a tiny bit of code that bypasses the login entirely and just lets someone directly back into the system when they do the funky chicken dance on the scanning platform.

For me, it's alright since as he describes it earlier, the authorization process for the machine is so hardcore that it even has something approaching a limited intelligence. The reason he can't hack it is because it's simply too smart to hack, and won't let anyone access the controls unless they pass the authorized user check. Putting in a back door runs the risk of the machine realizing it's being hacked, and doing something drastic. So they go through all the trouble of just making him an authorized user instead.

That, plus a backdoor is a backdoor, a compromised part of security that someone else might somehow get access to. Considering how much shenanigans the Old Gods and Infinite Dragonflight get up to, it's better not to run the risk.

And even then, this is Plan Y, before they hit Z; they could gain access to the machine without doing this, but it would involve ripping out the MC's Spark so he would read as a perfect match to Malygos.
 
For me, it's alright since as he describes it earlier, the authorization process for the machine is so hardcore that it even has something approaching a limited intelligence. The reason he can't hack it is because it's simply too smart to hack, and won't let anyone access the controls unless they pass the authorized user check. Putting in a back door runs the risk of the machine realizing it's being hacked, and doing something drastic. So they go through all the trouble of just making him an authorized user instead.

That, plus a backdoor is a backdoor, a compromised part of security that someone else might somehow get access to. Considering how much shenanigans the Old Gods and Infinite Dragonflight get up to, it's better not to run the risk.

And even then, this is Plan Y, before they hit Z; they could gain access to the machine without doing this, but it would involve ripping out the MC's Spark so he would read as a perfect match to Malygos.
He still needs to add back doors through.

Because he can't just add himself to the user list, since as Chromie pointed out that would be detected. Instead he needs to create a hidden user list. Add himself to it. Set up a back door that causes the security system to accesses that hidden user list under specific circumstances. And then set up another back door into the scanning system so it knows when those specific circumstances occur.

Edit: And then he needs to hide all of that in a way both the security system and Titans can't find.
 
Last edited:
On the other hand, if a fight does break out she's also the only one that actually could fight a Titan.

yeeeeeeaaaaah, she could fight a Titan. It'd be a short fight and end with her getting her ass kicked, but she could attempt such.

Because he can't just add himself to the user list, since as Chromie pointed out that would be detected. Instead he needs to create a hidden user list. Add himself to it. Set up a back door that causes the security system to accesses that hidden user list under specific circumstances. And then set up another back door into the scanning system so it knows when those specific circumstances occur.
Chromie's wasn't complaining that adding Atregos to the user list would be detected, it was that doing so would cause a paradox since it hadn't recognised his earlier attempts. The Current plan is to allow him access if he does X first, when X is something he has not yet tried, thus avoiding the paradox.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top