It would have to be handled carefully. Alchemists make a lot of money. Clerks don't. And on the other hand alchemists also wouldn't exactly like be managed by someone who failed out of alchemy.
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Nobility on the Golden Plains [A Clan Builder / Cultivation Quest]
- Thread starter Arcanestomper
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
It would have to be handled carefully. Alchemists make a lot of money. Clerks don't. And on the other hand alchemists also wouldn't exactly like be managed by someone who failed out of alchemy.
And not just money. There is probably elements of self respect, their goals, and Face involved in not wanting to get turned into a clerk even if objectively it's the best thing you could do.
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[X] Plan: Business and Teaching
Get someone else to do it
We are going for a admin/sage build. Rather than super strength, Delegation is going to be our superpower. To do that we need to recognize that there better ways of doing things than our first instinct and that requires opening our mind to other fields like ninja[subterfuge] and general[tactics/logistics]
...Let me try this again. I want to grab the skills not so we can personally be good at them, but recognize that there are more than one way to skin a cat. And then...
Get someone else to do it
We are going for a admin/sage build. Rather than super strength, Delegation is going to be our superpower. To do that we need to recognize that there better ways of doing things than our first instinct and that requires opening our mind to other fields like ninja[subterfuge] and general[tactics/logistics]
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- He/Him
...Let me try this again. I want to grab the skills not so we can personally be good at them, but recognize that there are more than one way to skin a cat. And then...
Get someone else to do it
I am 100% certain that if we actually have someone else to do it we have authority over, we will get some guidance on what tasks we can set them. Having the skills should not be necessary for that if we have anything resembling competent subordinates.
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Except you are putting the cart before the horse. We do not start with the retainers and then get guidance. Arcane already said that the other retainers still exist, we just do not have their loyalty. We will not get their service unless we look for it, and we need awareness of a problem before we can solve it.
Having skills is absolutely necessary if you want competent subordinates. Having a boss that actually has an idea of how things work is so much better than one that merely yammers about number goes up.
I think that's kind of the point of the quest, slower skill acquisition in exchange for a longer lifespan, we aren't exactly the heaven-defying genius that takes 5 years compared to the 500 years that cultivation usually takes. It will take a lot of investment early on but then we can reap the benefits later where we most likely will be dealing with things that we need high skill levels for.
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Sure, but that involves networking with other people in the clan and securing their loyalty. That's not actually the same thing as picking up their entire skill set. Having the same skill as someone, but way worse, is not generally how you befriend someone or hire them to work for you in a position that isn't within your specialty.
In short, I'm pretty sure if this involves a skill at all (which I'm not at all certain of), it involves Diplomat, even if the goal is to secure the loyalty of a Ninja or General. And I'm all for getting Diplomat, as I've said several times.
Having a boss who thinks they know what you do but is actually bad at it is a lot worse than one who admits "Yeah, not my area, that's what I hired you for." and lets you handle it. On a mechanical level I am deeply dubious that having Ninja 1 (for example) is helpful at all to having someone with a high Ninja skill go do something for us.
Oh, I'm not complaining about the way the system works. I am just pointing out the consequences. Which are that trying to get huge numbers of skills at level 1 is ruinously resource intensive for very little benefit as compared to actually getting good at a few things.
And that's totally fine, but we can't act like it doesn't work that way when, in fact, that's how it works.
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[X] Plan: Business and Teaching
[X] Plan: Business and Teaching
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Of course! Why did I not think of it before! We just need to take the networking action, then we can just wave away our problem. So let us just go to the action list and...eh? It is not there?
Gee Wilikers! If only we had an example of how to gain retainers. Oh hey An Lia, our loyal Alchemist retainer. I sure am glad we used our nonexistent Diplomacy skill to gain her service! Surely our ability to gain loyal retainers through interacting with people within the field, as was proven this turn with the Maple Cadre, was completely unrelated.
And no having a boss that knows nothing is indeed worse than one that knows the basics. Ask literally any contractor in any field.
The point of having Ninja 1 was not to somehow bully a high level Ninja to do our bidding, but to open the door to making connections with the ninja that are already in the employ of the clan. Not sure if you remember, but we do have things to offer them as well. The Research New Recipe, Assign Pavilion a Task, and Lead a Grand Project have our highest bonuses, but we have been letting them languish partly out of lack of ideas. What if they need a particular type of poison, maybe even the Thousand Centipede Poison? General also has its own carrot we can use to lure Retainers. You cannot go wrong with Flowing Ivy Elixir out in the wilds and we know Bundle of Stinky Herbs is possible. Having magic catnip for spirit animals can help secure our land.
But to do that we need to be aware that those specialties are there.
Let's not get too heated. To settle this I will say that if you gain a skill it will unlock action categories. But on the other hand if you want to do something, such as recruit skilled retainers, then I will create actions for them based on how you plan to do so.
I will say that the quest is mostly focused on your actions however. I can't simulate hundreds or thousands of different clan members all the time. So for instance if you want to approach a high level shadow master to recruit as a retainer. Then I would give you actions to make better poison, supply spirit stones, or other such things. But said shadow master wouldn't approach you with those requests out of the blue.
I will say that the quest is mostly focused on your actions however. I can't simulate hundreds or thousands of different clan members all the time. So for instance if you want to approach a high level shadow master to recruit as a retainer. Then I would give you actions to make better poison, supply spirit stones, or other such things. But said shadow master wouldn't approach you with those requests out of the blue.
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I was sort of assuming a dedicated networking action would be Diplomat which we would get access to once we had Diplomat.
I wasn't saying that you couldn't get retainers from skills other than Diplomat per se, I was saying that the ways to get retainers may be skill-based, but it's not a 'You have Ninja get Ninja retainers' kinda thing...we are using Sage to get alchemist retainers. That is not the same skill. They are our students, which is the kind of retainer you get with Sage. Diplomat would be used to get allies, you could probably use Ninja to blackmail someone and get a retainer that way, maybe hire some with Merchant...but in no case would there be a one to one correspondence between using a skill to get retainers and what skills the retainers in question would have.
That's all just to clarify what I was trying to say. The QM has issued a clarification that I think mostly fits with how I understood things, but is probably different in detail, so I'll leave it at that. I just really hate it when I communicate my point poorly and felt like I should clarify what I was trying to say anyway.
[X] Plan: Look into the problem.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
We know what it does, though. It does intrigue and/or leading of military troops. We don't necessarily know what the actions would be but... we don't really need to? I think it's an entirely reasonable decision to say "no, that's not really where we want to go with this character" and leave it be. We don't have to do All The Things just because they're there.
...and in the future? We probably shouldn't be handling things like the bandit situation so much. We should be honing and focusing on our areas of particular expertise, and occasionally branching out when there's a specific other area of expertise that we want to claim. Right now, our primaries are pretty much going to be sage, alchemy, and administration. We'll want diplomacy, combat ability, and possibly mercantile as secondaries. I personally want to also get a spirit beast. If we do that, it'll be in support of the personal combat ability thing, but ideally it would also offer benefits for one of our primary three.
...and as for better ways of doing things? It's true. There are problems that are best addressed through intrigue and/or generalship... and we should leave them to other members of the family.
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Depends on what the family expects of us and has the resources for.
If there is a problem that is outside our field of expertise and nobody else resolves it, we still suffer the consequences.
With the small clan, it would only take one person going into closed door cultivation at the wrong time to leave everyone in a potentially awkward situation.
If there is a problem that is outside our field of expertise and nobody else resolves it, we still suffer the consequences.
With the small clan, it would only take one person going into closed door cultivation at the wrong time to leave everyone in a potentially awkward situation.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
There's the members of our family, sure... and we also have a variety of clan retainers who have appropriate skills. Trying to be the clan generalist is *really* not our strong suit, and shouldn't be our role. Investing heavily in becoming "mediocre at best" at the things that our other family members are already good at is really incredibly inefficient as far as the wellbeing of the clan overall. That's the thing about this quest. We're a specific person, part of a larger organization, and we aren't even the most important person in that organization, or the second most, or the third most. We might clock in at fifth, after Mom, Dad, our older brother and our older sister, but if so that's on potential rather than actual because I'm pretty sure that some of the clan elders have us beat too. If the wellbeing of the Clan comes to depend on our skill at spycraft and leading troops, that speaks to a catastrophic enough level of loss of life that our clan is pretty much already screwed anyway.
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It is not really an attempt to do everything as much as to have as many tools to use in our service.
I personally see as ranks 3-5 as mediocre, and I was shooting for less than that, a 1.
My reasoning is still that we are at a bit of dearth of information that comes from our singular focus on alchemy pavilion. What sort of spirit animals do we have in our domain? What kind of ruins are nearby in case we want to go adventuring?What pills, elixirs, and extracts are in demand and who is the highest bidder? What is going on in the rumor-mill?
Best way to know is to ask the relevant people in the relevant field. We just do not know anyone we can to give us a good answer that we can act on.
I personally see as ranks 3-5 as mediocre, and I was shooting for less than that, a 1.
My reasoning is still that we are at a bit of dearth of information that comes from our singular focus on alchemy pavilion. What sort of spirit animals do we have in our domain? What kind of ruins are nearby in case we want to go adventuring?What pills, elixirs, and extracts are in demand and who is the highest bidder? What is going on in the rumor-mill?
Best way to know is to ask the relevant people in the relevant field. We just do not know anyone we can to give us a good answer that we can act on.
It is not really an attempt to do everything as much as to have as many tools to use in our service.
I personally see as ranks 3-5 as mediocre, and I was shooting for less than that, a 1.
My reasoning is still that we are at a bit of dearth of information that comes from our singular focus on alchemy pavilion. What sort of spirit animals do we have in our domain? What kind of ruins are nearby in case we want to go adventuring?What pills, elixirs, and extracts are in demand and who is the highest bidder? What is going on in the rumor-mill?
Best way to know is to ask the relevant people in the relevant field. We just do not know anyone we can to give us a good answer that we can act on.
You can ask me that sort of thing. I'd be happy to tell you general information your character would know. Your character isn't clueless about general knowledge. I just haven't done a lot of exposition on things that aren't relevant to the narrative.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
Maybe? So let's say, sure, that's important information that, for one reason or another, our character simply hasn't bothered to learn prior to this. Sure. Let's say that "ask the relevant people" is, in fact, the best way to get that information.
...how does getting less-than-mediocre levels in multiple skills benefit that in any way?
The way to talk to the relevant people is to possibly invest in Diplomacy specifically (which we are planning to do) and then asking someone who'd know. I mean, it's not on the actions list, but QM has already told us that we can propose actions for the actions list. We can assume that our protagonist has shown basica competence prior to this point in his life, and knows the things that he'd reasonably know. That includes knowing who to ask in this clan in this barony that he's spent his whole life in, or at least knowing who to ask to find out who to ask.
Like, we don't know their names, but that's not because he doesn't. It's because the QM hasn't created them as characters yet, because he's trying to keep the workload low.
Edit, because this came in pretty much just as i was finishing:
Uh, yeah. That.
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Well consider yourself asked
Not really relevant to the current vote, since we do seem dead set on finishing the tasks we already started, but having more info eventually about what we can do/affect would help.
My reasoning was, how do we get those skills? By learning under others. Which in my mind leads to interacting with people in that field as well as finding out names like who is the big cheese in that particular skill in our clan or if anyone is looking for a patron. It was less about what we could do with the skills and more what the consequences of learning those skills would do.
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I never said we should do that.
But relying on retainers seems sketchy when there appears to be a lot of corruption going on is a bad idea.
And hoping that our relatives are going to fix problems outside our narrow skillset doesn't prove ourselves worthy of the resources required for our future advancement to Core Lord.
Given that we somehow had bandits in our territory and a tiny Sect is charging protection fees on our roads makes me think that maybe we should branch out into General and sort out security.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
Okay. Well, that issue, at least, appears to be solved.
...but that's pretty much exactly what you're saying here. You're saying that we shouldn't rely on retainers (because corruption), that we can't depend on our family (because it will make us look bad?), and that therefore we have to make sure that we can solve every single possible issue that the clan might have for ourselves.
You follow that up by saying that we should take this character who has no skill at being a general, and we should sort out the clan's security issues... rather than working on the issues that we're actually good at.
You've raised two issues. Let's consider them.
- First, the idea that we have a lot of corruption, and therefore retainers are somewhat sketchy. You know, there's a solution for that, and it's one we're already working on. Rather than saying "Well, i guess that means that retainers are useless and we should do everything for ourselves." the correct answer is to fix the corruption in our retainers. This is a combination of Administrator and Sage, both of which we are already invested in. As we reform the organizations under us, our retainers will become more reliable.
- Second, you seem to be suggesting that if we stay in our lane and focus on doing what we're good at, the clan elders will frown on that, and think us unworthy of advancement. Is that what you mean? If it is, then I'm pretty sure that your impressions here are just violently wrong. Consider - we're a member of a clan. We're not the clan head. (Hi, mom.) We're not the heir. That's our brother. We're also not the clan genius of this generation. That's our Sister. We have a role that we've effectively staked out for ourselves as the clan alchemist, sage, and head of the medicine hall. We've communicated that to the clan at large, and the clan supports us in that ambition. That *is* what they want from us. Now, it's not exactly a narrow skillset. It's going to involve Alchemy, Administration, Sage, at least some Diplomacy, and possibly some Merchant. That's five distinct things. If we do it successfully, though, that's not something that reflects badly on us for being insufficiently generalist. That's something that reflects well on us because we're performing well in our role in the family. At some point, if we do it well enough, we may find ourselves more or less in charge of all of the alchemy halls in the family, rather than just this one. The one we have now is a bit of a fixer-upper. Still, we have a clear path to "approval and resources from the Clan" and it isn't "be mediocre at everything".
...and then we get to the "be mediocre" part... because, you know, our time is limited. Our actions are limited. Our training resources are limited. The more we can train in a small number of skill and then have those skills be the things we're taking actions in, the more effective we are overall. That's why the clan as a whole likes the idea of us specializing - because the clan as a whole is more effective if its individual members dial in to specific areas of expertise and focus on them. Now, we can't afford to do that too far. we're going to need some breadth, even for our currently assigned role. That's why we're going for Administration, Alchemy, and Sage, with a side of Diplomacy and Merchant... and we're also not neglecting our combat art. Still, if we're focusing out our particular role (which we should be) then those are pretty much the skills we're going to need for that.
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We are cleaning out the corruption of a small alchemy hall, not the retainers, and yet the clan elders are now insisting that we need to show our work and are raising doubts about competency.
Yep, we are totally making the retainers more reliable right now. /s
Second paragraph is just nonsense and seems to be listing reasons why we would be last in line for cultivation resources.
Third paragraph is overlooking that our training actions produce double results. And then contradicts itself by claiming we are specialising by spreading our learning in 6 different directions.
I have no idea how you are seeing 'excel in a side area' as 'get mediocre at everything' in what I'm saying but not what you are saying. but I'm done with the discussion.
Yep, we are totally making the retainers more reliable right now. /s
Second paragraph is just nonsense and seems to be listing reasons why we would be last in line for cultivation resources.
Third paragraph is overlooking that our training actions produce double results. And then contradicts itself by claiming we are specialising by spreading our learning in 6 different directions.
I have no idea how you are seeing 'excel in a side area' as 'get mediocre at everything' in what I'm saying but not what you are saying. but I'm done with the discussion.