DanBaque
Let's Have Fun
- Location
- Occupied Catalonian Countries
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm not voting that for that reason, but so that there's some sort of autonomous goovernment later on on which to base ourselves.
No Gods, No Masters (WH30k)
- Thread starter Aranfan
- Start date
- Location
- U.S.
[X] Plan: No War, But Class War
[X] Accept Karsh 3 into Anarchia
this is just a bloody trainwreck, the voter base is as divided as the actual civilization we are playing as. might as well not bother to read the votes any more and just pick a plan at random.
Glorious Chaos!
[X] Accept Karsh 3 into Anarchia
this is just a bloody trainwreck, the voter base is as divided as the actual civilization we are playing as. might as well not bother to read the votes any more and just pick a plan at random.
Glorious Chaos!
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- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
In terms of methods? We're already not.
I mean, if you think about it, we're already doing it; we're just half-assing it. We uplift one planet, and oh, shock, we make sure they see the right way of thinking. As soon as we leave, they want to federate with us. Not a surprise. We save another planet from orks, and already we're directly funding non-state actors who want to bring about a social revolution whose end result coincidentally resembles our society. Not necessarily violent revolution, but we're still doing it. Then witih Mishra, we have permitted and supported the establishment of a polity on another world which is steadily taking bites out of other polities as they give it excuses to flex its wildly out-of-context muscles, whether that means defensive wars that end with it eating other nations, or it opportunistically absorbing peasant revolts. I suspect the only reason it hasn't already gone world conquest is because it's easier to sell conquest when they have an excuse.
All of this is going well. By all indications, the end result of us doing these things is that they join the utopia that is us, because our polity, to all indications, functions literally perfectly unless chaos sticks in its dick. Perfection is a very nice shiny to have, and I don't really have a problem with us acting in so high-handed and ruthless a manner to bring it about. In fact, I wholly support it! And the one time we make contact with somebody and don't follow up with a concerted campaign to subvert local populations to our interests, this happens. This is a setting where everybody around us is going to react to our presence in ways that get a lot of people killed. And when they do these things, we react with outrage, quite reasonably. Look at the votes; we're already going all-in on crushing the fascists beneath a hover-Baneblade. Imagine how many lives could have been spared if we had done this without first needing them to start a genocide?
What distinguishes us from Emps is that we actually are the better option. Where 40K is determined to write a setting where their are no good guys, here we actually are the good guys. We have the power to save countless lives, of any species. And in a setting like this, where hesitation equals death on a scale where millions of lives are a rounding error, we have a moral imperative to use that power. Accordingly:
[X] Plan: No War, But Class War
[X] Accept Karsh 3 into Anarchia
Let's quit screwing around, and get some locals indebted to us. It'll end this faster if we have an excuse to go all-in.
And also, duh, of course get Karsh in. Why else would we have uplifted them?
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I mean, the society of Anarchia isn't perfect. It's super high tech, and it lacks systematic issues related to domination and exploitation. But there's still plenty of personal scale problems. Disease is still an issue. And some people are just jerks.
In the Grim Darkness of the far future there is only war.
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Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
Let's not try any cute word-play on each other, shall we?
This happened not because we didn't follow up on the contact, but because we sent a freaking warship to another planet's orbit for a military operation on the sovereign territory.
DanBaque
Let's Have Fun
- Location
- Occupied Catalonian Countries
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Would you mind saying those? Like, how is our society? Are people generally somewhat scared of psykers? Do the people that hate religion get into fights with religious people?
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Anarchy is not chaos, anarchy is order. Government is civil war![X] Plan: No War, But Class War
[X] Accept Karsh 3 into Anarchia
this is just a bloody trainwreck, the voter base is as divided as the actual civilization we are playing as. might as well not bother to read the votes any more and just pick a plan at random.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Disease and Death have not been cured, and that always sucks. Religion is often a sticking point and source of tension, but not an insurmountable one. Psykers are mostly accepted, but there's always a panic when one explodes into demons. Some people are jerks who make everyone around them miserable.
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DanBaque
Let's Have Fun
- Location
- Occupied Catalonian Countries
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Huh, do we have juvenat? I seem to remember it using the blood of children, so probably not.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
You have juvenat. Your average life expectancy is 250 years. Higher quality juvenat is technically within the realm of possiblity, but is too expensive to be availiable as part of the communal free healthcare.
It is not made from the blood of children. It's derived from jellyfish.
Baron Ouroboros
Emerald Leaves and Crimson Petals
- Location
- Vancouver
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Medical research ought to be high on our priorities.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Okay, I'm sensing a lot of hostility here. Can we dial this back quite a bit? I'm not playing word games; I'm presenting the facts as I see them. If you disagree, that's fine, but I'd rather not have this discussion if it's going to escalate into an argument.
My rebuttal is threefold: first, that the ongoing final solution is not necessarily due to our presence -- in fact, I doubt that it is due to our presence. The real-life Holocaust, after all, was years in the making. I have precious little doubt that this was as well. What was explicitly due to our presence was the initiation of hostilities, because the Pact panicked. The update says nothing about the genocide of Buddhists being due to our warship. Genocides are the result of years of resentment and buildup, and in the year before they begin, they're pretty inevitable unless outside factors interrupt preparations.
And second: that the genocides began is evidence that we should have gone harder on native interference, not easier. Again, genocides don't just happen. This already was in the works. I wouldn't be surprised if Aranfan has a timeline, and if we'd made contact three years later, it would already have been too late. Either way, this was going to happen. A war was going to break out; the genocide was going to start. By sending a warship to supervise any sympathetic groups forming, we triggered the war and failed to prevent the genocide. We should have gone harder, and just crushed the Pact before it could act.
Finally: even if you are right in your evaluation -- which, as outlined above, I don't currently believe -- that doesn't change the rest of my argument, that being that we're already being quite interventionist elsewhere in our neighborhood, to profoundly positive results. Based on that body of evidence, I move that we should continue and escalate interventionist operations.
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KnightofTempest
The Man who would be King
- Location
- Chicago
[X] Plan Facists, No!
-[X] Send the Main Army to Galak to put down the fascists.
-[X] Send a warship to Galak, to provide overwatch for any socialist rebels.
-[X] Some Communists want to arm the proletariat of Galak and entice them to rebel. This would need enough space lift to require the entire federation to get in on it.
-[X] Create Bookchin. There have been plans to terraform Proudhon 6-III for a long time. It's time those plans be implemented. This will be a Long Term Project.
-[X] Send the Main Army to Galak to put down the fascists.
-[X] Send a warship to Galak, to provide overwatch for any socialist rebels.
-[X] Some Communists want to arm the proletariat of Galak and entice them to rebel. This would need enough space lift to require the entire federation to get in on it.
-[X] Create Bookchin. There have been plans to terraform Proudhon 6-III for a long time. It's time those plans be implemented. This will be a Long Term Project.
DanBaque
Let's Have Fun
- Location
- Occupied Catalonian Countries
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I mean, it could well have been: the immediate rationalization for the Final Solution part of the Holocaust was the fact that they could not be trusted, and that in such a war they had to be finished.
With an immense threat also causing rebellions (the warship), I can see it going faster.
Regardless, I fully agree with your conclusions in interventionism.
Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
Good point. I haven't though about it. But now that I did, I still think it's happening because of our actions.
No, I disagree. I don't want to play that kind of polity. The one that thinks it knows best and is determined to shove its ideals into other's throats. Those people could have resolved this mess on their own and became better for it as opposed to dying against us now while thinking they were justified.
There is a difference between giving someone ages of technological progress and teaching them how to deal with the new life we've brought them in and conquering someone because their government is different from ours.
I have no objections against uplifting people and getting them to join us, but those who don't need such uplifting and already have their own ideas? Well, they can try, they'll realise that we're the best, eventually.
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Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
We are not conquering anyone, we are liberating them from their fascist/feudal/capitalist oppressors.
[x] Send the Main Army to Galak to put down the fascists.
[x] Send another warship to Galak, to provide overwatch for any socialist rebels.
[x] Fund Warp Research.
[X] Create Bookchin. There have been plans to terraform Proudhon 6-III for a long time. It's time those plans be implemented. This will be a Long Term Project.
[X] Accept Karsh 3 into Anarchia
[x] Send another warship to Galak, to provide overwatch for any socialist rebels.
[x] Fund Warp Research.
[X] Create Bookchin. There have been plans to terraform Proudhon 6-III for a long time. It's time those plans be implemented. This will be a Long Term Project.
[X] Accept Karsh 3 into Anarchia
Sass, Society, and Sarah
- Location
- Wörms, the half continent
Sass, Society, and Sarah
Or
A Day In The Life Of The Two Hundred and Thirty Second Most Powerful Psyker On Stirner
Or
A Day In The Life Of The Two Hundred and Thirty Second Most Powerful Psyker On Stirner
The door to the hab block shuddered open with a groan of an electric motor not yet dead but almost there, moving at an almost glacial pace. I muttered something under my breath and slammed my fist against the door operation panel, and it actually retracted properly.
"Fucking trash of a maintenance cycle."
"You know, if you'd stop throwing stuff against the door, it might actually work once in a while."
I shrugged, and settled in the chair, kicking off against one of the cupboards and idly spinning in place. James shrugged, and continued on with his latest project, whittling away in silence for a minute or so. He was the first habmate I'd had that hadn't moved out after a couple of months, and his half year long presence was something I'd almost become accustomed too.
I flicked my fingers and sent my chair rolling across the main room floor, bouncing off his table and craning my neck for a better look.
"Hmmm.... it's an arcology spire?"
"The main one of Bookchild's first."
"Huh."
We sat in silence again for a minute or so, him continuing on with his whittling, as I looked on, fingers absently tapping out one of Arbalest's newest songs.
"You're far too reckless, you know?"
I murmured something in reply, my head resting on my forearms.
"Like, I've been here six months now. You use your abilities for everything. I haven't said anything because I presumed you know better than me about this sort of thing-"
"That I do."
He glared at me, putting his project on the table and turning to face me fully.
"I know. But even still, to use them so fancifully, so constantly, when all it takes is a loss of control at-"
I sat up, then, cutting him off with a swift kick to his chair that sent my own spinning across the apartment.
"I gave a talk at a school today. Gave it the dullest title I could think - 'the effects of metaphysical psychesis on development and methods to mitigate them'. Still packed out the place."
I bounced off one of the walls, still spinning, until I came to a slowly winding stop in the middle of the room.
"It's important, we all know, to know what's out there. What's under reality, ready to boil through if it can but find a way. That's why they came. They weren't fools. The odds, of course, of any of them having any appreciable levels of ability are basically nil. But we do it all the same."
"And they will boil through, should I give them a chance. I'm good, I know that much. I'm an absolute asshole and people still ask after me because I am actually good at what I do. And what I do best, ironically, is warp entity containment. Daemonic counter-combat. I've had to do it three times. Two of them were accidents, research errors gone bad. One... wasn't."
The smell of rotting flesh filled the apartment, the jocular man stained with-
"It's not fun, you know. If I let my thoughts go quiet and if I let my mind wander free I can hear whispers. And I know what they're from, even if I don't know what they say."
"And yet you still use them."
"And yet I still use them."
The sigh was bitter, almost, before I smirked, snapping my fingers and letting warp-fire coil around them, blue and green and orange and other colours stranger yet.
"What can I say? Perhaps I'm an overconfident fool. I know some think so. But, for all they've done for me, and for all they could do, these gifts are mine. I'll not let some bloated creatures made of warpstuff dictate my actions."
James looked at me, and I looked back, directly into his eyes. I was almost glad of my inability to use telepathy at moments like these. The silence stretched out longer and longer, before he turned back, picking up his whittling tools and returning back to work.
"Alright."
I fell off my chair.
"Alright? I've had a dozen habmates leave at this point. I've been called a fool, a patsy and more yet besides, and you say alright?"
"Yeah. It's your choice. It's also your turn to make dinner."
I stared at him, eyes wide, before turning away to go check the cupboards. Alright, was it?
Yeah, perhaps it would be.
Alright.
"... Did you forget to buy any vatmeat again? You were the one with a shift today!"
James shrugged, and ducked, the frying pan hitting the much maligned door.
"Oh this is it you apathetic little-"
The threats, as always, were long and colourful.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Eeee
I have an omake.
How should I reward this? An AP is too much.
I know, info:
The Emperor just found Sanguinius last year.
You have the most advanced understanding of the warp in the galaxy. The Eldar used to know more, but then Slaanesh happened.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Oh, hey, I missed this.
I can acknowledge that those are issues, but they don't really seem to be societal issues. Disease is a, "the tech's not there yet," issue, which is eminently solvable given time. People being jerks is...well, we're never going to solve that without use of mass mind control technology (and then, we've really just centralized the problem to the individuals pressing the button). But on a societal scale? It seems like, as depicted, Anarchia literally is the perfect society, as in, a social system with no systemic flaws. Personal scale problems are down to people; they're not the concern of a state -- or a society, as would be the case here. Now, I couldn't actually buy something with this paradigm functioning as well as it's depicted in reality, but that's not really germane to my participation in this quest. As depicted, Anarchia is a societal utopia.
I can recognize that you don't want to play that polity, but it's too late. We already are shoving ideals down people's throats. Our uplifts come with a price tag, and that price tag is education in and mandatory adoption of the principles governing our polity. You can see it in our uplift Karsh 3; what happened there is essentially a case study in why Star Trek's Federation has the Prime Directive. We came, we uplifted, we assimilated. Whatever the locals once were going to be, they are now Anarchia. That it didn't happen at gunpoint doesn't really change that.
You also see this paradigm on Mishra 2. The Josiah Commune -- which we actively support -- works by slowly conquering its neighbors as they
Finally, New Andalusia. Again, we have an overriding political in, so the leadership can't actually resist our overtures. Yet despite that, we are not content with normalized state relations. No, we're actively bankrolling the labor movement. Essentially, catching the current state leadership from both sides. Sure, there's no revolution, but that's because the state is bowing to the pressure. If they stood strong and said, "No, this far and no further," we would fund a revolt, and thanks to our ideology, we would believe ourselves entirely correct to do so.
And finally, Galak. We sent a warship to help out anybody who happened to start a violent revolution with the right terminology. This is the most recent demonstration of our foreign policy style, but it is not the root of the problem. The root of the problem -- if, indeed, problem it is -- is far deeper down than that. Because look at what our body of choices was, for dealing with Galak. Pruned from the relevant update:
Wow.
Wanting to respect national sovereignty and spread our ideology through diplomatic pressure is a fine ideal, and I commend you for having it, but it's inescapable that that's just not the quest we're playing. From literally the first turn we spent in contact with foreign powers, we've had options to subvert our neighbors' state structures, and exactly none to actually use diplomacy on them. And that's not surprising. We are anarchists. Our whole schtick is that we believe state structures are inherently and inescapably tyrannical. We actively refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of a nation which doesn't follow our governing philosophy, because to do so would be to act against our ideals. Of course we don't engage with other governments as equals; we directly fund voluntary associations and start revolutionary communes, because those are what we recognize as the legitimate rulers of the people. And we've never had any options available to change our approach to that. I doubt we will, unless we encounter somebody too large and well-protected to take down.
!
Quick! More omakes! :lol
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Josiah has sold plenty of cell phones. Well, not cell phones, the satellites aren't in place for that. But you get my gist.
DanBaque
Let's Have Fun
- Location
- Occupied Catalonian Countries
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah, but doctrine and society don't catch up that quickly; the advantage is still massive.