Miracles of Saint Lucretia of the Chains [Warhammer 40k] [Sisters of Battle/Eldar] [nsfw]

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Honestly most of the actual theology of the Imperial Cult is kind of a black box anyway, so I think it's fine to invent your own. In some interpretations of the setting I think it's completely plausible that you might have the Ecclesiarchy equivalent of the Franciscans or even more out-there groups. Especially if it's mostly in the realms of theology aimed at an elite educated audience rather than put into practice.

The only especially interesting source I remember which pointed towards some actual attempt at an actual Imperial moral philosophy RE: aliens beyond simple grimdark aesthetics was from the third edition rulebook. I can't remember the quote exactly, and I'm on my phone, but it was something to the effect that all aliens have human souls, trapped in alien bodies, and therefore the moral thing to do is "free" them.

Obviously that's not particularly better from a "don't commit xenocide" standpoint, possibly even worse, but what I find fascinating is the underlying argument. The author clearly recognises on some basic level that aliens are agents worthy of moral consideration and may share some commonality with humans; it views violence towards them as something needing justification rather than a given. What it makes me think of is a sort of Imperial Thomas Aquinas sitting in a monastic cell somewhere, performing Olympian feats of mental gymnastics to find a "natural law" underpinning and bolstering the Imperium and its actions.

But other than that, I don't recall anything especially interesting or notable on a theological level. So there's a fairly blank slate for making stugff up.
 
The Laurent said:
The thing is, as a faith it doesn't really, barring heresy, have room for that? In the sense of, like.

A non-human worshipping the Emperor would analogous to a non-white worshiping Aryan Jesus or otherwise some form of Christian Identity.

...so it can happen I guess??, but it's not really supported by any sort of body of faith.
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What I'd like to note here is that I hope I have made it very clear that Fausta is both a woman of deep faith, and someone who is just as deeply disillusioned with the Ecclesiarchy as an institution. By extension, her relationship to orthodoxy is necessarily strained - and nothing she does around Ayile is, strictly speaking, orthodox. In fact, it is pretty openly and flagrantly in the breach of orhodoxy. Fausta gets away with that mainly by the virtue of being really high status, and having almost unquestionable support of a group of people - fellow Sororitas - who are widely seen as the guardians of faith and orthodoxy.

On a semi-related note, a fact I have always found interesting is that in Catholicism (which is a model for a highly institutionalized religion that Wh40k ineptly draws from) heresy is not just holding onto a wrongful or heterodox religious view. You become a heretic once you are called on to recant by your hierarchical superiors, and refuse.
 
I wish more Sororitas content, official or fanmade, really engaged more deeply with the religious stuff. Like you posted earlier in the thread, if anything orthodox christianity is a better template for the imperium's faith, and there's so much interesting stuff there to explore that would be especially novel and unique for a generally western audience that mainly knows protestantism and catholicism. But even then, catholicism of course has much more depth and strange nuance than people know, so there's plenty to explore there too.
Also, only really related because of the eucharist parallel, but the whole "corpse-emperor," "carrion lord" thing? The guy "for whom blood is drunk and flesh eaten. Human blood and human flesh - the stuff of which the Imperium is made"? I feel like it got way under-emphasised as time went on. If I read the original blurb and didn't know 40k, I would assume this was a setting primarily about sci-fi christian cannibalism or something
 
Gargulec said:
What I'd like to note here is that I hope I have made it very clear that Fausta is both a woman of deep faith, and someone who is just as deeply disillusioned with the Ecclesiarchy as an institution. By extension, her relationship to orthodoxy is necessarily strained - and nothing she does around Ayile is, strictly speaking, orthodox. In fact, it is pretty openly and flagrantly in the breach of orhodoxy. Fausta gets away with that mainly by the virtue of being really high status, and having almost unquestionable support of a group of people - fellow Sororitas - who are widely seen as the guardians of faith and orthodoxy.

On a semi-related note, a fact I have always found interesting is that in Catholicism (which is a model for a highly institutionalized religion that Wh40k ineptly draws from) heresy is not just holding onto a wrongful or heterodox religious view. You become a heretic once you are called on to recant by your hierarchical superiors, and refuse.
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One thing about the Imperial Faith that does fascinate me is that it lacks a coherency of what is considered true Revealed Text, or texts that are transcribed directly by the Emperor via a vessel but rather always as mortal interpretations of prophetic visions.

As much as the Ecclesiarchy draw inspiration from the structure and presentation of the Catholic Church they lack many of the pillars of what defines it. One of which is that the Lectitio Divinitatus is not an equivalent to the Bible but rather more a study of the divinity of a mysterious deific figure that refuses to offer any revelation beyond its own actions.

Thus the canon of the Imperial Faith actually lacks any foundation save the known precedent of the Emperor's actions and what words were recorded and survived. There are no canon explanations leaving everything as direct parable and metaphor that are acknowledged by the Ministorum as potentially flawed in their recording due to mortal error.

This leaves impossible large amounts of room for Ayile to be admitted as long as she supports the ideals of the Great Crusade, namely that the Imperium of Man rule the galaxy alone and unchallenged. Again the Emperor is known and recorded to have acknowledged a parallel and equal, if technically subservient, empire in the form of the AdMech.

Which means there are options and allowances that can be made to organizations and cultures that do not align with Terra but acknowledge the supremacy of the Emperor and participate in the conquering of the Galaxy.

Taken together with the Inquisition's penchant for "Sanctioned Xenos" and their origin as an organization directly created by Malcador for whom the term "First Apsotle of the Emperor" could be applied. As even Sanctioned Xenos do not have to profess a belief in the God-Emperor, this could be taken together to mean that so long as any Xenos willing to place themselves as subject to the Imperium in addition to professing a belief in the Emperor's divine supremacy are permissible to be considered non-Xenos though not Human either. Likely falling into the same cultural and legal category of "mutant" like Psykers and Navigators.

It's all actually very interesting to think about and I'm looking forward to where this all will go!
 
I like that idea, and given what I said earlier about taking refuge in audacity, I wonder if it might get taken a step beyond that...

Since we're counting miracles, I'll note that we're now at least at number two, which is the number the Catholics require to become a saint. Now, they also normally require prospective saints to be long dead, but we know the Imperials do things a bit differently there... And I see that recognizing a Living Saint in 40k requires a conclave of the Ministorum and the Inquisition (and we've got a Cannoness present and an Inquisitor on the way who already believes Xeno souls are at least a useful model for studying human ones, so might they not with the proper prompting also believe The Emperor could make use of them as well?).

So it might not just require someone above a Cannoness demanding Fausta recant to make her a heretic, since a Sainted Ayile could just point out that she is indeed touched by the God Emperor so the accuser is the one who needs to recant. And while I'm not sure where a Living Saint fits in the hierarchy, I'm guessing it might be at a level high enough that digging up someone to overrule her might not be practical in the immediate term.

Ah, the wonders of bootstrapping arguments at the intersection of theology and bureaucracy.

This reminds me of a couple I know: he was born in the US and met and married her abroad, so she got into the US and was eventually naturalized as his wife, then when he was out of the country again he lost his passport and discovered the government office with his birth certificate had burned down, so he was only allowed back into the US because she was a citizen and he was her husband.
 
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RalphNumbers said:
This reminds me of a couple I know: he was born in the US and met and married her abroad, so she got into the US and was eventually naturalized as his wife, then when he was out of the country again he lost his passport and discovered the government office with his birth certificate had burned down, so he was only allowed back into the US because she was a citizen and he was her husband.
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I laughed, but only to cover the deep dread at the mundane horror of how easily this can happen to someone.
 
You know, I think I got distracted by the sadism earlier, and I want to return to this bit.

Gargulec said:
t helped that she could not speak them without being reminded of an older Sister who had first taught her that the sin was not in need, but in selfishness. After all, if her life was to be truly pledged to Him and Him alone, what right did she have to keep her desires to herself?
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Like... What does that mean exactly? I see two general interpretations:

1) A friendly comrade offered a new interpretation that causes less sexual repression and self-hatred. Also, fun sex.

2) Institutional sexual exploitation. Newbies are taught/coerced to please more powerful sisters, until the newbies grown in power and exploit the next generation.

I hope it's option 1, but I worry it's option 2.

Would anyone be able to tell me I'm wildly off-base here?
 
iyabiya said:
The guy "for whom blood is drunk and flesh eaten. Human blood and human flesh - the stuff of which the Imperium is made"? I feel like it got way under-emphasised as time went on. If I read the original blurb and didn't know 40k, I would assume this was a setting primarily about sci-fi christian cannibalism or something
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Which is kind of an ironic reversal of how christianity does it.
With the dead deity being worshipped receiving and consuming rather than giving and being consumed (metaphorically).
 
ancusohm said:
I hope it's option 1, but I worry it's option 2.

Would anyone be able to tell me I'm wildly off-base here?
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Honestly, I had not settled on the details behind that backstory bit, but I'd like to imagine Fausta is referring to someone she asked for guidance during a moment of doubt - like, for example, having your first semi-illicit novitiate sexual experiences, and trying to make sense out of them. And it is kind of natural that one of the people you'd reach out for would be your slightly older peers. A lot of carnal knowledge, I'd imagine, is transferred through channels which are hardly official. Though as with much of such homosocial spaces, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a kind of rigid and sometimes coercive structure to how young love happens and who mates whom.

("Hey I just slept with my novitiate crush, are we forever sullied in the Emperor's eyes?" is easier to ask to that cool older Sister you know, rather to one of your Novitiate Superiors, I guess.)

One of the things that are tricky when writing sexuality within the context of the Imperial Creed is that Wh40k writers love drawing on a particularly faux-Gothic ideas of mortification of the flesh. As a result, the Imperium ends up coming off very much as averse to the body, and I do like the idea that the common interpretation of the Creed, or at least the one that is most spread, is profoundly suspicious of sexual pleasures and desires. But, and this is a really random thought, I also think it is interesting to see the Sisters of Battle as one of those groups which doctrinally diverges here. Hell, they used to be the Brides of the Emperor, and now are his Daughters. There is quite a bit in their aesthetic that can nicely draw from the rich tradition of female Christian mysticism, which tended to be extremely erotic, often in ways that the orthodoxy would suspect of being perverse. As a result, I do like to imagine that a lot of Sisters end up struggling a lot with questions of sexual desire, but not from the direction of "how do I resist the temptations of the flesh" and more of "how do I align my desires with the love for the Emperor". I feel like I am rambling here a bit, but it is just nice to imagine.

Also thank God someone is commenting on the sadism. I promise this is primarily meant to be smut!
 
Gargulec said:
There is quite a bit in their aesthetic that can nicely draw from the rich tradition of female Christian mysticism, which tended to be extremely erotic, often in ways that the orthodoxy would suspect of being perverse. As a result, I do like to imagine that a lot of Sisters end up struggling a lot with questions of sexual desire, but not from the direction of "how do I resist the temptations of the flesh" and more of "how do I align my desires with the love for the Emperor". I feel like I am rambling here a bit, but it is just nice to imagine.
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I did read the start of this fic way before outlining my own thing so maybe I've subconsciously absorbed your ideas but like damn every other post makes me go "yeah so true exactly what I was thinking." I did also just finish a semester on religion and my exam was about islamic denominations, and then also catholicism vs orthodoxy, so all this stuff about religious nuances and variations is just on my mind in general.
My own idea was that the Sororitas, at least the order i made up, have ritualised gay marriages between pairs of sisters, precisely so they can channel their desires into a specific person and strengthen their bond (like that spartan thing everyone talks about that I have no idea about the accuracy of) but also importantly so they can express doubt and minor heresy in private and get it settled there without letting it fester or turning into a big public schism.
The parody of christianity (and religion in general) that 40k is running with tends to be that even the smallest amount of doubt is a terrible sin, but as far as I understand, usually religious organisations fall apart fairly quickly if they do that and prefer to say that doubt is fine and should be expressed as long you remain faithful and devoted overall. "Doubting Thomas" is after all still a saint and appears in a lot of christian art. So while a fascist empire would definitely not want some of its most iconic and beloved religious warriors to be publicly displaying their doubts in the emperor, they do need to get that steam out somehow or they'll just become apostates and heretics armed with flamers and power armour and public support. And the same for all the homoerotic steam of course. My god, all that steam...
 
Chloe Sullivan said:
(This isn't my sort of smut :( )
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If I had a penny for every active reader on this Warhammer40k smut fic about elves getting D/s-ed by pseudo-catholic butch nuns in power armour who is here for everything but smut, I'd have at least, like, three or four pennies. Which isn't a lot, but is enough to make wonder if maybe I should just give up hopes of being a porn writer and just write arcane power dynamics where the sex is only implicit.

(More seriously, I think it is actually a pretty big compliment that I manage to attract such readers anyway, so thank you!)
 
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Gargulec said:
On a semi-related note, a fact I have always found interesting is that in Catholicism (which is a model for a highly institutionalized religion that Wh40k ineptly draws from) heresy is not just holding onto a wrongful or heterodox religious view. You become a heretic once you are called on to recant by your hierarchical superiors, and refuse.
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Yeah - heresy is less about the idea itself, and more about going explicitly against religious autority on that issue. Of course, expousing an idea will probably follow into being asked to recant, so the pipeline is there, but they aren't one and the same.

Gargulec said:
There is quite a bit in their aesthetic that can nicely draw from the rich tradition of female Christian mysticism, which tended to be extremely erotic, often in ways that the orthodoxy would suspect of being perverse.
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[The Ecstasy of Saint Teresa has entered the chat]
 
ancusohm said:
Like... What does that mean exactly? I see two general interpretations:

1) A friendly comrade offered a new interpretation that causes less sexual repression and self-hatred. Also, fun sex.

2) Institutional sexual exploitation. Newbies are taught/coerced to please more powerful sisters, until the newbies grown in power and exploit the next generation.
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How about option 3: Theological sexual exploitation with a side of comphet. The Emperor does not live by psykers alone. Just as his psychic might is kept up by their sacrifices, his ties to humanity are kept up by his peoples' prayers. And it is the duty of the brides of the emperor to ensure those prayers include plenty of naughty nuns punishing each other just the way he likes. And thus, their lustful enjoyment in the act cannot be a sin, as long as they're gay for The God Emperor!

Or alternatively, perhaps that's a horrible idea, and it's actually a Slaaneshi corruption of the faith spreading insidiously within the Ecclesiarchy.

...

After all, if the world on our side of the 4th wall isn't displaying enough prurient interest in the sisters' elf bullying, Gargulec can always insert an in-world voyeuristic audience.

But anyway, for the record, Ayile's getting somewhat into the boot licking, Fausta's enthusiasm for the crueler parts of her job and her motivated reasoning around it, and the daemon's attempted seduction were all quite hot. I just find it's the depth of context of the world and society around the characters that gives their experiences a lot of that heat, via the conflicting drives they supply. And it can be easier (and maybe less embarrassing) to dig into those aspects.
 
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RalphNumbers said:
But anyway, for the record, Ayile's getting somewhat into the boot licking, Fausta's enthusiasm for the crueler parts of her job and her motivated reasoning around it, and the daemon's attempted seduction were all quite hot. I just find it's the depth of context of the world and society around the characters that gives their experiences a lot of that heat, via the conflicting drives they supply. And it can be easier (and maybe less embarrassing) to dig into those aspects.
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This is completely tangential, but sexuality studies (the humanities side of it, wouldn't want to be mistaken for a psychologist) are, basically, a big part of my day job. And something that is consistently interesting to notice is how difficult sex is to talk about, especially when we want to talk about it, instead of just going "hnnngh hot" or "eww". A part of it embarrassment, to be sure, but also I think that we culturally struggle to find a language to discuss sex - as a set of practices, not an abstract concept - in a way that does not come as crass or oversharing. And this is especially true in "respectable" spaces; I'd imagine it to be easier to talk sex in a porn theatre, but we are on a public forum and we are trying for something more than the lowest common denominator smut.
 
RalphNumbers said:
But anyway, for the record, Ayile's getting somewhat into the boot licking, Fausta's enthusiasm for the crueler parts of her job and her motivated reasoning around it, and the daemon's attempted seduction were all quite hot. I just find it's the depth of context of the world and society around the characters that gives their experiences a lot of that heat, via the conflicting drives they supply. And it can be easier (and maybe less embarrassing) to dig into those aspects.
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I actually do think something of Ayile's personal kinks enjoys the yielding to power and tradition that comes from bootlicking and likely similar acts of humiliation and service. As a culture the Eldar practice the Paths, but that kind of environment builds a general faith in following a set of precepts to learn and understand and adopt into yourself for a time.

For Ayile there can be some respite from a task with as straightforward a methodology as bootlicking, but also into the understanding of the greater whole of a repentia/sororitas I think. It is the culture of an Eldar to use their paths to help guide their emotions and broaden their understanding of the world around them. Ayile is starting at the very very first baby steps to somewhat grasp the nature of the Imperium but also the narrow way of the Sororitas within it.

It's going to be something she'll eventually, consciously or not, draw parallels to and dig her mind into studying and understanding. And for a Craftworlder that's going to involve getting into some part of the thick of things even if she stays form to the path of the Seer.

I'm really interested into the understanding of how both the intellectual component of a scene is portrayed as consubstantial with the physical component. Gonna be fun to see it continue!
 
I imagine that, like any military org, there's some system of working new initiates in. Juniors do tasks under the instruction of seniors until they're fully proficient. (Do the Sisters use learning engines, or do they learn the old fashioned way?) It's one part indoc, one part professional training, and one part cultural acclimitization. So if said direction involves teaching the junior how to perform some personal favors for the senior, why not? It's a tradition; everyone takes their turn. Besides, it's good stress relief.

Personally, I'm here for the religious thought. And the overlap with S&M. (Is there a term for that? John Donne overlap?)
 
iyabiya said:
(like that spartan thing everyone talks about that I have no idea about the accuracy of)
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I think you may be thinking of the Theban band. The group of ~150 pairs of gay lovers who drove and fought from chariots.

I believe the band (but maybe not all the legends about them) has a fair amount of solid evidence.

Also, they were very much NOT Spartans. They kicked the Spartans' asses... Not that I'm emotionally invested in 2,500 year old fueds between Greek city states or anything.
 
Been re-reading Robert Orsi's Between Heaven and Earth and History and Presence, (influential books about American Catholic history, and [perhaps moreso] religious studies as an academic discipline and set of practices, though I think the first book is better argued than the second).

One of the main theses of the book(s) is that religion is composed of relationships between humans and holy figures or supernatural entities (primarily Mary and the saints for Orsi), and that these entities are called to take sides on and implicated in relationships, struggles, and conflicts, between humans. Crucially, relationships with the supernatural are weilded both on behalf of and against established power and hierarchies and norms.

The other main concept I need to bring up is what Orsi calls "Real Presence," which is the sense that holy and demonic figures and forces are immanent and active in the world and in history, and that they can be located in particular places, times, people, and things. He also argues that the drive to disenchant, or to train people against the experience of Presence (for better and for worse), is a dominant organizing principles of modernity, (and especially 'modern' religion) but that it has never been totally successful or uncontested even in cultures we think of as thoroughly secularized.

One of the things I think your fiction nails, that a lot of 40k fiction fails at, is a deeply felt experience of Presence that drives the actions of various characters. Aiyle's vision of Saint Lucretia and Fausta's temptation in the chapel could both (by a reader so motivated) be read as entirely psychological, but they are strongly and immediately felt to be (un)holy intervention in the character's lives and relationships almost in spite of how the supernatural is a True Fact about the universe. This isn't something that's only experienced by the main characters or the chosen few, but by ... just about everyone (at least, in the 41st millennium), and that's what I think is all to often feels missing or unsatisfying about the supernatural in too much 40k fiction: either it's been definitively established that something is going on in the warp, or it's not real. Or, from another direction, so much of the official lore wants the supernatural to belong to the main characters of history, but I think it's much more interesting if the Emperor and the Ruinous Powers are immediate and accessible to potentially anyone (except blanks, and most Tau).

You also capture some of the real world powerful ambivalences of religious forces and figures. Faith in the Emperor and in the intercessionary powers of the saints saves dozens of Eldar souls, while putting one in tremendous peril. It's what enables the death cultists to live in the face of absurd grief and loss, and to raise arms against their religious superiors, even though it's also a primary driver of their privation and suffering. If anything, Aiyle is most imperilled by the most modern character: the guy who wants to define and describe the separation between the soul and the flesh (to say nothing of the racial differences between souls) in the most exacting and discriminating detail.

Another work that I think does this really well is Open Sketch's "The Witch Lives." Particularly her main character's meditation on "the many Emperors," and her encounter with some Slanneshi cultists.
 
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