Infernals were the original source of the Charms that let you raise your Essence one higher than you should be able to, in return for a constant penalty. They're the only ones to have such Charms outside of Ink Monkeys.
Miracles of Ancient Wonder [RWBY/Exalted]
- Thread starter Graveless
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- exalted (white wolf) rwby
Unless Wiess is the Lunar and that is where her newfound empathy for Faunus comes from.
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- Canada
I managed to imp you with that
The Solar one is in Glories of the Most High Unconquered Sun. So not really.
No. All my hate.
UMI is not direct brainfucking. Direct brainfucking is UMI, but UMI just as easily covers many, many things that are not mind rape.
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I could be wrong, but name a example of a UMI charm that doesnt directly mess with someones head? Its in the name even.
Spectrum
Tell me a secret~
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- Behind you~
That's what I figured. Because everyone seems to be okay being referred to by their names, it felt moderately safe to rule out Abyssals for anyone.
That said, Weiss could've been either an Abyssal or a Lunar for either dying to or barely surviving and fighting through a White Fang assassination attempt in her backstory.
You are missing the point. UMI is stuff like a painting so beautiful that anyone who sees it weeps with joy. The painting is not raping someone's mind to make them happy. It is just that pretty.
It depends on the resonance rules you use. That said, Abyssals and Infernals come with the issue that they have elaborate support structures around them, more than even the Sidereals. Having them go to a school is an odd choice, given the amount of investment in them.
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- Canada
I think you might be missing the point. The entire concept of UMI is that you are using magic to fuck with someones head. Normal influence is like, sweet talking someone into giving you information (either normally, or backed up with power) while UMI is altering the mind or otherwise invading it to force them to give you the information in violation of their agency. If you simply forced them to reveal what you want, forced them to love you and tell you everything, simply ripped the knowledge from their mind... it doesnt make it any more or less of a invasion.
UMI is innately a violation of another. There is no other interpretation, no other metric, no example i can find where it is otherwise. Its so bad that even if you resist it, its described as putting a strain on your very soul, and inflicts Limit on Exalts.
To use your example; that painting could be either. Creating a work of art so beautiful that it brings those who see it to tears could probably be accomplished with Performance(or Craft? i forgot what covers solid art) Excellencies, basic non-UMI charms at the most. The magic-imbued skills of the Solar Exalt could easily create such a moving piece without the need to directly influence the minds of another... they can simply create such beauty. On the other hand, a Solar who lacks such skills, who is perhaps vain, callous, or simply lazy, could create a mundane work of art... and then imbue it with charms that force a vision of transcendent beauty into the mind of the onlooker, causing them to fall to tears at the sight, regardless of the reality. That is UMI.
The sheer amount of UMI-based charms that Solars have, and the casualness with which they used them, is one of the key points for justifying the interpretation that they became monstrous towards the end of their rule. There are UMI charms in almost every charm tree... hell, the primary Stealth charm for Solars wasnt any kind of super-stealth... it was a UMI charm that mindfucked everyone around them into not seeing them, and you could upgrade it to the point that you could literally beat someone to death in the middle of a crowd and everyone would ignore you and your victim.
There is a good reason that Solars are famous for their mindfuckery.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
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- She/Her
Yeah, given the discussion for the past two pages, I'm also guessing it's this. Deeply ironic in some ways, predictable in others, but all-around it seems like a solid group.
...I wonder if Cinder is an Abyssal here or Infernal here. It'd be somewhat fitting.
Or a Solar. Heroic in Creation is more... it isn't inherently Good or Evil, Heroic or Villainous. It just means you are/can be Great.
No, it isn't. At least, that is not how many of the writers for Exalted intended it to be viewed.
UMI is a matter of degree. It is the sort of thing that you cannot shrug and ignore. A Solar using UMI to seduce someone is not raping their mind to make them feel lust for him. He is being supernaturally charming and seductive. Now, being supernaturally charming and seductive can be used in ways to violate someone's mind. But it is not innately a violation.
UMI is a matter of degree. It is the difference between "Hey, she's hot" and a face that launches a thousand ships.
Yes, it grants limit to resist it, but that is not a sign of mind rape. It is a sign of mental strain from denying a powerful passion. Kinda like how you can gain limit from virtues.
Giygas
Cutest Sawk i could find. Lucario is a nice extra.
In the simpliest terms possible, UMI is NMI(Natural mind Influence,) that cannot be naturally ignored (You are allowed to ignore all the attempts of NMI after some Willpower has been spent). It isn't naturally better (Except when another effect is stacked on it, which to be fair is a fairly common occurrence.), but if someone keep using it on you, than you are forced to spend Willpower untill you run out, accept it, or Join Battle. (You cannot do Social combat when you are in the normal kind of combat)
Yeah. 2E social mechanics weren't exactly the best ever.
Yeah. 2E social mechanics weren't exactly the best ever.
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At this point, I'm honestly wondering if you played the same game I did.
This is blatantly wrong, and ignores the separation between normal mental influence and UMI. There are lots of (for example) social charms that are not UMI, this is because they are what you call 'non mindrape UMI' but are in fact not UMI at all. To use a charm to make yourself super seductive is not UMI, they are not described as such in the rules. To use a charm to force feelings of lust on a target is UMI. One is mindrape (and UMI) and the other is absolutely not (NMI).
To use a example from the story; Wiess's speech. On the one hand she could have used a Performance charm to make herself super good at talking and inspired guilt in her audience through the sheer skill of her Essence-powered oration. This is NOT UMI. On the other hand, a solar could have gone "dicks" *walks away* and created the exact same effect via a more invasive Performance UMI charm forcing feelings of guilt and hallucinations of judging loved ones on those who who heard her. This IS UMI.
Hell, she could do both at the same time.
This is true, but in the sense that a fist and a virus are both living weapons. Not the way your portraying it at all.
That said... im honestly not sure what else I can say here? Would you like me to quote the rulebook and every single UMI charm to show you that they all mess with peoples heads?
Hell, literally the first line under UMI; "Sorcerous mind control and powerful Social Charms carry Essence-charged effects into the minds of others."
*Addendum: And if that was the creators intent, why does Psyche exist in 3e? Its the same thing, made even more clear;
Psyche: A power with this keyword is an unnatural,
hypnotic, or sorcerous power that magically influences,
controls, or cripples an opponent's thoughts or feelings.
If they didnt intend for UMI to be mindrape, then why did they make the same thing in 3E even more clearly?
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For what its worth, I agree with Chaotic. I don't have the Rules Books, but he's provided the stronger evidence so far. I'm also familiar with some of the low-fruit UMI and from what I remember they are such because they directly affect the targets mind. As opposed to... I think its Handy Salesman something, that doubles your successes on... I think its Presence rolls. Its an effect applied to yourself and is really pretty bullshit, but its not a UMI.
And it can lead to things like 22 success rolls on a decent day. At that point someone could drop down on their knees in supplication to the character on first meeting or something.
And it can lead to things like 22 success rolls on a decent day. At that point someone could drop down on their knees in supplication to the character on first meeting or something.
You see, you say that, but then it says itself its an Unofficial Wiki. And I don't know if that wiki is trustworthy. For example the english Ar Tonelico Wiki should be taken out back and be put down for good. Its hilariously misinformed.
Hopefully someone gets around to reading all of aquagon's stuff he's backing up on the wiki and fixes the damn thing.
It is a direct quote from one of the devs. If you are willing to search RPG.net, you can still find the original post.
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...And its a quote that supports my position.
Hes saying that, subjectively, the person being hit with it may not consider it mind control.
The entire point of that post is 'how can mind control work because the person would resent being controlled automatically and always resist?' and the dev is going 'well you have to think about it from the perspective of the victim, if you are pushing positives on them then they may not think of it as mind control, and a degree of flexibility is required for any of the charms to work as intended.'
No where does he say its not mind control or even mindrape, or imply such. hes simply saying that the Victim will not automatically scream MINDRAPE and resist as hard as possible regardless of other factors.
Etc Etc.
Hes saying that, subjectively, the person being hit with it may not consider it mind control.
The entire point of that post is 'how can mind control work because the person would resent being controlled automatically and always resist?' and the dev is going 'well you have to think about it from the perspective of the victim, if you are pushing positives on them then they may not think of it as mind control, and a degree of flexibility is required for any of the charms to work as intended.'
No where does he say its not mind control or even mindrape, or imply such. hes simply saying that the Victim will not automatically scream MINDRAPE and resist as hard as possible regardless of other factors.
Considering I'm the only one working in it since a long time ago, you shouldn't hold your breath for it
Well, that's a shame. You're already doing some amazing work so can't exactly ask you to do the wiki. And I'm not. ...Wait a sec, I didn't tag you're name. How did you know?
Unless you were lurking here already?
Kind of, yes.
It's worse than that. I mean, you can ignore the mental influence if it doesn't pass your MDV(and Mental Dodge Defense can be really high out the gate). But past that, well, even NMI has more in common with stuff like Charm/Dominate Person in dnd than actually convincing other people of things. Which is why spending willpower is so needed: almost any Mental Influence could be devastating. Of course, willpower is pretty limited, and the idea is that you're not going to be spending it often(for example, spending something like 4 wp is supposed to only be for absolutely life or death decisions).
That said, I believe the Author is going more 3rd system for social, so charms are less powerful.
Also, specifically regarding the charm being used, it doesn't actually differ too much from NMI. If she repeatedly spams the person it could be different, but so far? Everyone seems to have accepted the influence, rather than spending willpower, on the first use.
- Location
- NOVA
I'm using a combination of the two editions for inspiration, but most charms aren't part of that. The potency of effects is much closer to 2e's, even if I'm ignoring explicit mechanics because it would be silly to include them in a serious story(Infinite Essence Reactors, Untouchable Soak Monsters, etc)