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Marvel Phase 4

The_Reptile_ said:
Like that's my main thing. RDJ is a great actor, everyone knows this, and can do a turn for the dramatic, but Doom requires a level of BOMBAST to him that I've just never seen RDJ pull off. You need someone who will take any scene he's in and just wolf it down without any hesitation to play Doom.
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Should have cast Kelsey Grammar
 
Carrington said:
While a break might've helped in theory, I don't think it would've done a lot with the movies and series we've got.

Don't misunderstand me, I've enjoyed everything in "Phase 4&5" they've put out so far, but these "Phases" don't really have an identity or goal of their own. It's more like neat stuff that's happening. The goal of Phase 1 was clear: form the Avengers. Phase 2 and 3* worked towards the Infinity Stones and Thanos. Not everything was explicitly about it, but most had at least some building blocks for the overarching narrative.

Phase 4&5 on the other hand? I mean, it's called the Multiverse Saga and I guess Dr. Strange and the end of Spider Man NWH is "about" the Multiverse. In so far as they, end the end of the Marvels, say that it's a thing that exists. Now Loki and Antman did introduce the new big bad, but for 10 movies and 12 TV shows (so far), those two appearances (3 if you count the end of Loki S1) aren't really enough to create a feeling of cohesion.

Now, in hindsight it's a good thing that Marvel didn't make Kang a bigger focus throughout Phase 4&5, but I really doubt that they kept his role relatively small in case his actor gets accused and convicted of harassment and they have to pivot away from him.

What I feel they should've done is mirror Phase 1 and then 2&3. Identify who the core new Avengers are going to be and make standalone movies about them (that get connected through posts credits scenes). Then have a team up with them and the old Avengers to form a new team, which also introduces the new big bad. Then introduce new characters and develop existing characters while working toward the big finale. That way, Phase 4-6 would have a connecting tissue between the projects and would allow to grow hype for the eventual finale.

As it is, it's kinda hard for me to feel hype about new MCU releases. Since the current phases aren't really building toward something and I don't really know who will show up again in the future, the most I expect is to see a good movie / series. For example, I finally watched Echo last week and I felt that it was a neat show but I don't feel like I missed anything by not watching it the moment it was released. And I honestly feel the same about most MCU movies / shows the last couple of years.

*and I kinda wished they had used "Phase X" to collect films that work toward one narrative goal, instead of the rather random break points we've got. That way everything after Avengers up to Endgame would be Phase 2 and we'd now be in Phase 3.
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I mean, you're right, but like, they also could have used the break to actually figure things out to a greater degree and not make the mistakes they did. Plus longer prepreduction is always good.
 
Glimmervoid said:
No because the MCU execs have looked at the success of Deadpool 3 (and GotG 3 last year) and seen where the money is. They've decided they can no longer be confident on-boarding new heroes as new MCU tentpoles. I'll doubt they'll stop entirely but it can't be the plan anymore. They're looking more and more for the bits of the legacy MCU they still have access too. Returning directors like the Russo brothers, bringing fan fav actors back (like RDJ), probably more focus on the big name heroes that are still about.
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Zero chance that the box office of Deadpool 3 impacted the RDJ decision, since the movie wouldn't even have been out when the call was made
 
Carrington said:
*and I kinda wished they had used "Phase X" to collect films that work toward one narrative goal, instead of the rather random break points we've got. That way everything after Avengers up to Endgame would be Phase 2 and we'd now be in Phase 3.
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Each ending with an Avengers movie made some amount of sense, but both Phase 2 and 3 had post-climax movies after the Avengers one lol.

Although it should be noted that, as much as post-Endgame MCU has felt aimless, expanding from "Avengers is the destination" to "Endgame is the destination" was not that tightly planned either. Joss Whedon said he just put Thanos at the end of Avengers because he thought it was a good choice to be the greater villain behind Loki. And James Gunn said he wrote the scene where the Collector explains about the Infinity Stones, only for Marvel's response to be that they were just adding the Stones to new movies - with Thor: The Dark World being reworked to turn the Aether into one - and were already thinking about including the Power Stone in Guardians, so what he wrote was incorporated into the next movies.

For now, as I've noted before, the stuff thrown at the wall to see if it sticks is mainly the Multiverse, but also smaller possible stories like Young Avengers and Midnight Suns. But they are only possible, so it still feels aimless

Glimmervoid said:
No because the MCU execs have looked at the success of Deadpool 3 (and GotG 3 last year) and seen where the money is. They've decided they can no longer be confident on-boarding new heroes as new MCU tentpoles.
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Your timeline doesn't make sense, Deadpool 3's first release was on Monday July 22 and the announcement was on Saturday the 27th, in no possible world could anyone have managed to negotiate RDJ to come back in time for the Comic-Con announcement. It further doesn't work with the thesis when the earliest reviews of the movie were mixed to negative until the much more positive reception by audiences for its wide release on Friday, so there's even less incentive for it to have made them pivot.

So no, I very much doubt Deadpool was part of the equation. You might make an argument for GOTG3 (and I slightly doubt that for reasons I will explain later), but not it.

Instead, I posit that this is very much likely a result of the soul-searching meeting done in September of last year at Marvel Studios' retreat in Palm Springs, where they discussed what to do in the wake of Majors' crimes putting an end to their plans as well as the recent disappointments at the box office and on television.


This is a very cute image, ngl​

In it, the article mentions that the studios floated around bringing back the original Avengers but did not commit, and ultimately concludes that they may decide the solution lies in the either their new hot Fox properties like X-Men and Fantastic Four, and/or stop having overreaching expectations and waste lots of money with reshoots and VFW slave labor overwork (I was completely unaware the director of The Marvels used reshoots to be absent half the time doing another movie, which explains a lot).

I do think you have a point that legacies seem like their move now, don't get me wrong. If new properties don't perform well, better fall back on safer ones to not lose money. Bringing back RDJ reeks of desperation, the Russos more so.

There is just one thing that doesn't fit for me if that's the case: if the move is nostalgia bait, then why Agatha All Along?

Many Disney+ Marvel shows make sense if they are building up future or possible future movies, whether they have elements for the Multiverse (WandaVision, Loki, What If), the Young Avengers (WandaVision again, Falcon&Winter Soldier, Hawkeye, Ms. Marvel), Midnight Suns (Moon Knight, Werewolf By Night), or just miscellaneous future properties like shows (WandaVision again for Vision Quest, Echo for Daredevil: Born Again) or movies (Falcon&Winter Soldier for Captain America 4 and Thunderbolts*, Hawkeye for Thunderbolts*, Secret Invasions for Armor Wars).

But where does Agatha fit in this?

WandaVision already filled its role in setting up stuff for the Multiverse Saga, two other separate movies, and possibly one spinoff about an Avenger. Its impact is, for now, over. But what does Agatha do? Sure she was a popular villain from the second most successful show after Loki, but not to the point of needing her own spin-off catching us up on what she's doing. Echo at least ties into Wilson Fisk. Wanda is already dead and her children are ???, why go back to Agatha at all if the move is to now do safer stuff? Why not cancel it altogether?

The answer is that, to me at least, as desperate as this move is, I don't think it is as desperate as it could have been and as some believe.

The truth is that the reception of Phases 4 and 5 was mostly mixed instead of negative, overwhelmingly and otherwise, and the thing that weere well-received ping ponged between established properties and newcomers. Movies and shows like Shang-Chi, Moon Knight, and Ms. Marvel did well, or even very well, even though some others were divisive, like Eternals and She-Hulk, doing well financially but mixed critically, while things featuring known entities suffered a similar fate (Dr. Strange 2, Thor 4) while others did very poorly both critically and financially (Quantumania and The Marvels)...while yet more others did very well on both fronts (No Way Home, Wakanda Forever, GOTG3). I don't think there is such a surefire "let's go back to the old stuff" message to get out of it even if execs are pod people. Because what do you get out of this if you're an exec? Do people want the old stuff back or are they tired of it? Do they want new blood or not?

And then Majors happened, leading a necessary and much needed restructuring of where they are going forward...but the actual only change was RDJ and the Russos back while the rest continue mostly unimpeded. And I would argue the Russos make some amount of sense because they never said Endgame would be their last movie, and if you have a proven team able to put a very large ensemble cast on screen together more or less cohesively and still get a coherent story out of it, you would prefer to use them instead of a new director* or bringing back Joss Whedon (lol, lmao). So really RDJ is the big unexpected move here.

*The directors of Thunderbolts* (yes the asterisk is part of the title, no I don't know why) might be able to prove his chops in directing an ensemble movie, but it's also the guy who directed...Paper Towns??? A surprising choice, no idea how that will translate.

(Not that I'm particularly enthused for the Russo bros after their fare post-MCU. The Extraction movies were fun and action packed, but not really memorable outside their oners. The rest of their catalogue was utterly forgettable. Did anyone like Netflix's The Gray Man? At all?)

((Although now that I checked they were producers on Everything Everywhere All at Once, so I guess they had one hand on something good.))

To get back to my point, that means that, to me, the studios are not so desperate that the idea of the Band Back Together is an actual, serious possibility. The announcement is huge for justifiable reason, but it could have been so much worse, which tells me it's more of a half-desperate measure. It is not yet at DCEU (or DC Studios now I guess) levels.

I think, and that's just my speculation, that, more fundamentally, execs are perfectly fine and even expect if C- or D-listers don't perform super well, as long as they are not a complete money sink. It helps tie over a loyal core fanbase and build brand loyalty.

But they would rather be caught dead of erotic auto asphyxiation than have an Avengers movie bomb.

EDIT: I wrote all this and now that I checked, Agatha's sidekick is actually Wanda's son, so there goes the central piece of my counter argument lol
 
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Nice paychecks if you can get them.
variety.com

Behind Robert Downey Jr. and the Russo Brothers’ Mega ‘Avengers’ Paydays

Marvel is paying $80 million for the Russos to direct two 'Avengers' movies and 'significantly more' for Robert Downey Jr. to tackle Doctor Doom.
variety.com variety.com
...Sources say Marvel is plunking down $80 million for Anthony and Joe Russo to direct "Avengers: Doomsday" and "Avengers: Secret Wars" and "significantly more" for Downey to tackle uber-villain Doctor Doom in the two tentpoles. The Russos' deal doesn't include back-end compensation, but it does contain performance escalators that kick in at the $750 million and $1 billion thresholds. The brothers also will produce the two films via their AGBO banner. That marks something of a departure for Marvel, which typically doesn't work with outside producers, preferring to keep the team in house.

For Downey, who helped catapult Marvel into a money-printing machine thanks to his turn as Tony Stark in the first "Iron Man" film in 2008, his deal also is filled with perks that include private jet travel, dedicated security and a whole "trailer encampment" for the newly minted Oscar winner.

...

Sources say Downey, who is repped by WME, agreed to return to the MCU if the Russos, who are CAA clients, would be directing.
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So I saw the first episode of "Agatha All Along" and it was really good, people should probably watch it as I think it has potential to (ironically) be the next "Wanda Vision" type hit if it continues with it's quality so far

(Will probably watch more once I pay for my D+ account as it's on hold for now )



Edit: We got a thread for it?
 
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