@Cetashwayo, can we get some kind of training program for skirmishers and cavalry going ASAP?

Also, could we start innovating new weapons and inventions?
 
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[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.
[X] Kallias should be sent to Lykai to investigate rumors of a Korinthian Conspiracy against Eretria Eskhata potentially involving the Tarentines, Liburni, and Dauni.
[X] User-Motion: Send Timaeus to aid Leontios, his former buisness partner, with investigating a Korinthian Conspiracy against Eretria Eskhata potentially involving the Tarentines, Liburni, and Dauni.
 
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I think we need a user motion to force the Liburni into a confrontation along side the eastern greeks, the Enetoi, and if needed, we should have Athens help us. I know Eusebios thought naval engagement unwise but the recent defeat of the Liburni by the Etruscans and the peace enforced on them by Korinthe means they will lick their wounds and concentrate on easier targets.

I'm thinking of having Kalias go to sicily and continue on from there to Athens.

This blows the conspiracy up by knocking one of the 3 players out and allows us to send Kalias to Sicily to prevent the Ionian alliance from getting wrecked.

Thoughts?
 
[X] No, he is a weakling who cannot hold his post among his fellows. Better a strong man who does not like Eretria than a weak one who does.
[X] All have a place in Eretria, and we must not worship the dead. There cannot be any discrimination in the graves of the dead beyond the wealth of the individual.
[X] Kallias should be sent to the Sicilian Greek Cities to forge an alliance with them against Syrakousai, convincing them to enter the war in Sicily.
 
@Cetashwayo, can we get some kind of training program for skirmishers and cavalry going ASAP?

Also, could we start innovating new weapons and inventions?

Progress takes time. Training outside of the bounds of the traditional festival and ceremonies, literal modern-day prfoessional "training", is expensive and unpopular.


I don't really want this because triumphal steles are the usual thing among Greeks after a victory and it sidesteps the whole question entirely. You can have a cemetery of heroes and a stele, or have a cemetery for everyone and a stele. It's disconnected from the actual question placed.
 
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[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.
[X] Kallias should be sent to Lykai to investigate rumors of a Korinthian Conspiracy against Eretria Eskhata potentially involving the Tarentines, Liburni, and Dauni.
 
I think we need a user motion to force the Liburni into a confrontation along side the eastern greeks, the Enetoi, and if needed, we should have Athens help us. I know Eusebios thought naval engagement unwise but the recent defeat of the Liburni by the Etruscans and the peace enforced on them by Korinthe means they will lick their wounds and concentrate on easier targets.

How would you force them into a confrontation? They defeated the Enetoi near Patava and don't seem to show any sign of stopping.

You really don't want to press the Athens button unless it's an absolute emergency.
 
How would you force them into a confrontation? They defeated the Enetoi near Patava and don't seem to show any sign of stopping.

You really don't want to press the Athens button unless it's an absolute emergency.

I take it Athens will entangle us in the mainland if we do ask for help. Guess that's out.

If we wanted to take the Liburni out without Athens, what does Eusebios reccomend? Would including Metapontion help?
 
I take it Athens will entangle us in the mainland if we do ask for help. Guess that's out.

If we wanted to take the Liburni out without Athens, what does Eusebios reccomend? Would including Metapontion help?

He wouldn't recommend anything because you only have ten ships and extraordinarily limited naval power.
 
I would suggest then, that if we're already raising monuments to the fallen, memorialising their triumphs, then specifying a specific Hero's Cemetery is creating ourselves an unnecessarily divisive problem for the future.
Eretria has enough issues with the politics of the living, without politicising the dead as well.
 
I'm not great at write-ins and such but I can draw a little. I wanted to mimic one of those 18th century English tourist sketches. It's very rough but eh, a lil something for Antipater. Again to reiterate don't critique it XD it's quite terrible, I'll clean it up when I can a massive bunch, I just got a drawing tablet so I figured I'd learn and draw a little something for the cool Bull.

Here's Antipater's grave. It's actually meant to be a lot smaller so that the horror of the very vague lines looks better. I drew it at 50% zoom and I'm regretting it XD I might resize the image

 
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Limited naval power? I thought 10 Eretrian Triremes are equivalent to roughly 166 Liburni Penekonters. :V
Hopefully third times the charm for the Enetoi. I think this is the 2nd butt kicking they've gotten from the Liburni. Maybe they'll pull off something miraculous.

Damn it, Eusebios warned us about this 308 OL too. Now we have to turtle up.

:mad:
 
I will leave the vote open for the rest of today, mostly because the Sicilian cities vs Lykai vote is relatively close.
 
I have been to Korinthos, fellow citizens, and I must say they have men and ships and wealth aplenty. Even in their decline they can present Eretria a challenge that, barring some act of the gods or every man proving himself an Akhilles, we would be unable to meet on our own.

Of course we know this as well as they, and have sought security in leagues and pacts. Korinthos does not face Eretria alone, but Kerkyra and Metapontion as well as our league and our barbaroi dependencies. And should Korinthos move unjustly against us, we may appeal to our old friends in Athens. They know this too, and so if they do seek to move against us are making use of proxies and pawns so as not to betray their own aims to scrutiny.

This suggests to me that it would be best to settle this war soon, but in a victory that will redound to our credit. We must strengthen our ties to Metapontion with a joint victory, and earn the friendship of Rhegion and the Sikeliotes. We must prove ourselves worthy of the aid of Athens, and perhaps deter the nearby danger with a display of our arete.

Our gravest threat is not in the Dauni who cannot breach our walls, or in Taras whose strengthening the Messappii and Metapontion and Kerkyra must oppose for their own benefit. It is the Liburni we cannot come readily to grips with save by supreme efforts and the aid of Kerkyra. To thwart them we must have peace elsewhere, and to find peace by abandoning our cause of Ionian liberty would do us grave harm.

Therefore I advise the ekklesia that in my judgment I might best be sent to Sicily to succor our allies and find a means to restrain the Syrakusoi before all is lost there.
 
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We uncovered Leontios' spy network in Turn 22:
While Kallias traveled the road to Canosa with his assistant xenoparakletor and the painted blue stone worn around his neck that he decided was the badge of his office, the master of the mint was dispatched on Sideros' recommendation and the assent of Herodion to investigate the temple debt and find out what was really happening. Although at first frustrated, Pydamon later described Ianedar, the master of the mint, as "indubitably skilled in his craft", and "kind as a woman to her child" in helping him. Despite that...peculiar praise, however, Ianedar was really quite thorough, and was able to find that some accounting had been left out. Speaking around, and with the assistance of his now adopted father Timaeus (who had been the first to help him get his position), Ianedar discovered a quite complicated plot laid by several of the seers that went far deeper than previously thought. As it turns out the previous head seer leaving the city with a huge amount of silver and gold from donations to the temple was no one-time occurrence, and in fact there appeared to be some kind of funnel of money going out of the city that also tied several businesses whose absentee owners were nowhere to be found and with further investigation did not exist.

A complex network of informants and contacts to someone outside the city had been sending money from private businesses and temple donations outside of the city entirely, to where it was uncertain. Over thirty people were tried and exiled by a jury. The only lead was that all of the exilees apparently fled immediately to the city of Lykai, according to the information of an Eretrian merchant who saw their ship stop in Hydrus and came back to the city to report the incident. Over the course of several weeks, Ianedar and Timaeus uncovered further ties to Lykai, including a fisherman's boat that was constantly docked in harbor with no one taking it out to fish. Breaking into the boat, they found a horde of tablets recording debts, this one with clay tokens stamped in the Enetoi language.

At this point Timaeus made an excited gasp and muttered something under his breath. "Throw him to the crows!" He cried out to one in particular as he ran to the Boule. After a discussion with Herodion, a special assembly was called of the ekklesia and Herodion relayed the information that they had uncovered. It was quite likely that this whole business, including funneling private funds out of Eretria to Lykai, had to do with Leontios. An equal amount of citizens cursed the heavens in rage and expressed confusion about who precisely "Leontios" was.

Leontios was the kind of citizen that if he was in legend would have been charitably compared to the Goddess Eros; perhaps he would have been her son. In the city's early years he was a business partner of Timaeus, but his increasingly frantic antics, such as cutting the heads off barbaroi and throwing them at the enemy, creating gangs of fishermen to beat up other gangs of fishermen and push out competitors, and causing a revolution in Epidamnos through his extremely exploitative moneylending practices, all caused him to eventually chase opportunities at the head of the Adriatic among the Enetoi, a trading and naval people living among the lagoons and flat plains of the area. It was presumed that he was dead, and indeed that was the news, but he had apparently somehow survived and wherever he was had some connection to Lykai. Unfortunately, with Kallias going to the north, the investigation had to conclude merely by tearing down the network he had somehow constructed despite not being spotted in the city for years.

The comical ridiculousness of the investigation highlighted the basic problems of the city's "fast" court system that would convene in the morning, convict in the afternoon, and exile in the evening. Many of these people had been brought up on irregularities, but were able to use specific appeals to one God or another, or good rhetoric, or an interesting story, to convince the jury that the irregularities were nothing of the sort and that there was no concern to be had. Although the city did not lose any money (indeed, if this scheme had attempted to attack the city's finances it would have been caught much sooner), it was a disaster for some citizens and the temples. Business partners and lenders had been essentially robbed blind by this shadowy network, and there was no assurance everyone had been caught. Timaeus explained that Leontios planned on the spot, but his plans would always have "plans within plans", that would take time to come to fruition; the trouble tended to be that all his plans within plans collided against each other and produced a catastrophe. If he had gotten better and was even avoiding detection, then this was far more serious than previously thought.
Since we send Kallias to Canosa that year, this was the end of it.
When we did send him to Lykai and Metapontion in Turn 23, this was the result:
Still, there was reason to hope, and reason to extend the city's contacts outwards towards the south. To that end Kallias was sent to negotiate with Metapontion and observe the Lykai situation to make some heads or tails of it. In the first place, he landed in Metapontion to some applause and interest; it was not usual to get a foreign dignitary in this fashion, and envoys were usually only sent in times of war or to dispatch peace deals in general among the Greeks. The city of Metapontion gleefully accepted the offer of Prodos, the proposed Eretrian proxenos, and then got down to business discussing a variety of manners with Kallias. Their system of government was similar to Eretria's, where a proboulos elected every year mediated foreign relations and managed some affairs for the sovereign ekklesia. Unlike Eretria, however, the Metapontine system had more vested in the proboulos, perhaps too much. The proboulos at the time, as it was, met with Kallias and explained the foreign situation in a detailed manner.

In the first place, the problem with Lykai; it was not really a problem and Eretria should stop worrying. Yes, it was true that there were many ties of Leontios and his scammers in the city, but as the proboulos revealed to Kallias (something Kallias had already known but not publicly revealed), the leader of Lykai, Alepous, was himself Leontios. Apparently the man had explained the whole situation to the proboulos over a lovely dinner and he had accepted it; after all, Lykai was an enormously important counterweight to Taras, and prevented the city from expressing its ambitions over the whole Sallentine Peninsula just as well as the Messapii did. Of course, the matter with the scams and money lost by Eretrians was unfortunate, but it was a necessary evil for the containment of Taras, who he had heard was planning for a major campaign launched against the Messapii after years of agitation by the common people of the oligarchs.
It seems he never stopped in Lykai afterall and only talked to the Proboulos of Metapontion about the whole situation.

@Cetashwayo Different topic: How does Herodion think this war would progress should Syracuse proof victorious on Sicily? Would that automatically end the war? Or, could they continue and ship their troops over the Strait of Messina to help Krotone and Lokris?
 
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Since we send Kallias to Canosa that year, this was the end of it.
When we did send him to Lykai and Metapontion in Turn 23, this was the result:

Thank you.

Yes, I'll say that Kallias was overtaken by events and was not able to really investigate the situation thoroughly. Drako has been doing work to remove other corrupt people from the city with juries, and it seems to have been working well. Drako and Timaeus both know Leontios and his works, so it's been progressing steadily.

@Cetashwayo Different topic: How does Herodion think this war would progress should Syracuse proof victorious on Sicily? Would that automatically end the war? Or, could they continue and ship their troops over the Strait of Messina to help Krotone and Lokris?

Syrakousai has a much larger fleet than the Italiote (Italian) Greeks. Once it is finished crushing its enemies in Sicily it will likely cross the strait and level the Italiotes for revenge, linking up with Lokri Epixephyrii and Krotone. Domination over Italia was an ambition of Gelo and Hiero, something they were never able to realize due to the weight of Carthage at their back.
 
Syrakousai has a much larger fleet than the Italiote (Italian) Greeks. Once it is finished crushing its enemies in Sicily it will likely cross the strait and level the Italiotes for revenge, linking up with Lokri Epixephyrii and Krotone. Domination over Italia was an ambition of Gelo and Hiero, something they were never able to realize due to the weight of Carthage at their back.
Then we will need to keep them busy, changing my vote:
[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] All have a place in Eretria, and we must not worship the dead. There cannot be any discrimination in the graves of the dead beyond the wealth of the individual.
[X] Kallias should be sent to the Sicilian Greek Cities to forge an alliance with them against Syrakousai, convincing them to enter the war in Sicily.

If Kallias goes to Sicily, then I would like to try a User-Motion though:
[X] User-Motion: Send Timaeus to aid Leontios, his former buisness partner, with investigating a Korinthian Conspiracy against Eretria Eskhata potentially involving the Tarentines, Liburni, and Dauni.
This is what the QM thought of it:
Sure, but all of these options presented as alternatives to Kallias belie that this is a diplomatic mission. Leontios is less important than the diplomatic implications he could present to Eretria. It's not going to provide fantastic results.
But, I still think that this would be better than not sending anyone to Lykai. Timaeus can help the investigation with his widespread trading contacts. Also, sending someone means we are not totally reliant on Leontios goodwill to get any information.

Are there some among you who will carry my motion?
 
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[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.
[X] Kallias should be sent to the Sicilian Greek Cities to forge an alliance with them against Syrakousai, convincing them to enter the war in Sicily.
[X] User-Motion: Send Timaeus to aid Leontios, his former buisness partner, with investigating a Korinthian Conspiracy against Eretria Eskhata potentially involving the Tarentines, Liburni, and Dauni.
I will lift your rock, even as I change my vote over where to send Kallias, as his urgings and the revelation of the greed of Syracuse has changed my mind.
 
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Fine,changing vote:

[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] All have a place in Eretria, and we must not worship the dead. There cannot be any discrimination in the graves of the dead beyond the wealth of the individual.
[X] Kallias should be sent to the Sicilian Greek Cities to forge an alliance with them against Syrakousai, convincing them to enter the war in Sicily.
 
It seems rather folly to neglect the very real problems to be addressed in Sicilia in exchange for potential advice on a supposed Korinthian plot from a man we know himself to have been the head of a recent conspiracy against Eretria.
 
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