Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
...
You're debating in bad faith. We're done here.
Magical Girl Lyrical Taylor (Worm/Nanoha)
- Thread starter Marsyas
- Start date
You brought it up! It wasn't part of my initial assertion!
... Waaaait a sec. Taylor is getting lots of crap from people who want loved ones resurrected even though she can't do it. Why doesn't she just tell them it was a unique Tinkertech device she overloaded to make it do the thing, and the whole event wouldn't ever be possible again? I mean, aside from the "tinkertech" and "overloaded" bits it's actually true, and "tinkertech" isn't even that far off for a description.
Yeah, the whole situation sucks, but this explanation is easy enough to can and give to people en masse. It's not what they want to hear, but it's all they're going to get.
Also, on the subject of denied resurrections, if L33T is explicitly able to make anything once, why is a resurrection device so rare in all the Worm fics out there? There are even video game themed devices he could crib, like the Bioshock vita chambers. And hell, if he'd done that first, then he'd probably have been much bigger on the risk taking and his power wouldn't have crapped out on him later for being a bad host.
Yeah, the whole situation sucks, but this explanation is easy enough to can and give to people en masse. It's not what they want to hear, but it's all they're going to get.
Also, on the subject of denied resurrections, if L33T is explicitly able to make anything once, why is a resurrection device so rare in all the Worm fics out there? There are even video game themed devices he could crib, like the Bioshock vita chambers. And hell, if he'd done that first, then he'd probably have been much bigger on the risk taking and his power wouldn't have crapped out on him later for being a bad host.
einargs
Verified Spiller of the Egg Yolk
- Location
- The Egg Yolk, Outer Layer
- Pronouns
- They/Them
@Always Late, @SynchronizedWritersBlock is not misrepresenting you. You said:
This very clearly suggests that the US Military having control of capes would be against PRT mandate, something which I can recall no evidence of in Worm. (If I am wrong, I invite you to correct me with a citation; the burden of proof lies upon you here.) You further go on to say that the labels applied to the two mean that the PRT/Protectorate would get parahumans instead of the military.
This... putting it lightly, it makes no sense. For one, the Protectorate is not in fact a government organization. It is a separate organization that is linked to the PRT in a hazily defined fashion and which likely receives government funding, but it is very clearly not part of the US Government given that it operates in Canada and--according to early Worm chapters--was in negotiations to expand to Mexico.
Furthermore, your suggestion that the US Government can somehow direct people with powers who join the military to instead sign up with the Protectorate makes equally little sense. The military cannot compel you to leave the service and then sign up with a separate organization. They could perhaps assign you to work with them, but you'd still be a member of the military, something the Protectorate is explicitly not.
Additionally, it seems silly to suggest that the military would somehow refrain from employing parahumans. As you mention, the military, the PRT, and the Protectorate all serve different purposes. Parahumans provide them with unique options and ways to fulfill those purposes, and as such it would largely be remiss of them to fail to avail themselves of those possibilities. Yes, the military likely declines to use parahumans on the front lines or in particularly obvious ways so as to avoid encouraging a parahuman arms race, but the idea that they would somehow fail to employ them in order to help counteract the threats that, say, the Yangban or other threats pose is absurd.
Obviously, it is hard to say anything definitive about the military in Worm. We have little to no concrete information on them, and given how long ago the Nail takes place in Worm there is ample room for divergence. This means that it is entirely possible that what I am saying is wrong, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary--which I fully admit there may well be, in which case I invite you to bring it forth--it would be unreasonable to assume that the US military doesn't employ parahumans in at least some fashion, especially in regards to carriers, one of the cores of US power.
Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
You have no evidence for your points or counterpoints, refuse to address me pointing that out, and you can't keep your story straight between posts. If I hadn't read your previous eloquence and specificity in the Administrative Tribunal Thread, I would have though you were drunk.
Stop digging your own grave, son. It's deep enough.
EDIT:
As the one who first put the suggestion forward, the burden on proof is just as much on SWB as it is me.
...
You want me to quote the Alexandria interlude where she swears herself to the Protectorate in front of the US President as part of the PRT's creation?
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Well, even if it were possible, he probably doesn't want to die. If he thinks his power is unreliable, would be gamble on a resurrection device that he's not sure will work?
First off, that the military likely has tinkers is a thing in this story:
You give statements about the "PRT Mandate" but in fact we known little about the PRT's mandate beyond statements like:
Which does not state that the PRT has jurisdiction over all government-affiliated parahumans. Neither does the description in the cast page.
Furthermore, "The Protectorate" originally referred to the team of Legend, Alexandria, Eidolon and Hero, and expanded to refer to other teams individually as the PRT expanded. That usage is specific the teams that parahuman volunteers were placed in; parahumans who volunteered to PRT authority in exchange for government support. Furthermore, we know from the same citation as quoted above that parahumans do not have to be in Protectorate teams to work with the PRT.
You attempt to cite Alexandria's oath, but that oath does not resemble the modern Protectorate, and furthermore at the time the PRT and the four members of the original Protectorate team were, guess what, linked with the army. So the military very specifically had, at the time, parahuman members and resources.
In short, there is ample reason to believe that it's possible the military has parahuman resources, because they have had those resources in the past, and no evidence that the PRT has jurisdiction over all government capes. Which is enough to support my statements, both that the military could have capes, and that it is not supported anywhere that the PRT / Protectorate mandate includes a monopoly over government parahumans.
There is no reason for that turn of phrase, or for the surrounding paragraphs where they worry about the militarization of the PRT, if the military does not have parahuman technology and resources in excess of a single branch of law enforcement.
You give statements about the "PRT Mandate" but in fact we known little about the PRT's mandate beyond statements like:
Article: Introduction
Parahumans are contacted or contact the PRT to request membership in one of the teams under the PRT's umbrella. Smaller offices with only five or so employees may maintain only one or two parahumans working alongside the PRT office, while other teams support the Protectorate team as an independent agency separate from the PRT in all things excepting oversight, collaboration and general management.
It is a primary goal of the PRT to recruit and include as many parahumans as possible. This ensures a safe environment for parahumans; it allows for stabilized, healthy interactions between parahumans and the unpowered; and it grants the PRT the ability to better answer threats.
Which does not state that the PRT has jurisdiction over all government-affiliated parahumans. Neither does the description in the cast page.
Furthermore, "The Protectorate" originally referred to the team of Legend, Alexandria, Eidolon and Hero, and expanded to refer to other teams individually as the PRT expanded. That usage is specific the teams that parahuman volunteers were placed in; parahumans who volunteered to PRT authority in exchange for government support. Furthermore, we know from the same citation as quoted above that parahumans do not have to be in Protectorate teams to work with the PRT.
You attempt to cite Alexandria's oath, but that oath does not resemble the modern Protectorate, and furthermore at the time the PRT and the four members of the original Protectorate team were, guess what, linked with the army. So the military very specifically had, at the time, parahuman members and resources.
In short, there is ample reason to believe that it's possible the military has parahuman resources, because they have had those resources in the past, and no evidence that the PRT has jurisdiction over all government capes. Which is enough to support my statements, both that the military could have capes, and that it is not supported anywhere that the PRT / Protectorate mandate includes a monopoly over government parahumans.
einargs
Verified Spiller of the Egg Yolk
- Location
- The Egg Yolk, Outer Layer
- Pronouns
- They/Them
You are claiming that the US military does not recruit or employ parahumans. As such, the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence for this.
Note that I am not saying that there is no burden of proof on SWB, nor that there is. That is irrelevant to whether or not you need to provide evidence to support your claim.
Yes; the wiki is notoriously unreliable.
Even disregarding that, I see nothing that actually indicates that the Protectorate is actually part of the US government. Even the quote you present merely says that it is government-sponsored, which does not in fact contradict what I state in my post.
Even assuming, ad argumentum, that the Protectorate or PRT is directly part of the US government and not a closely associated organization receiving funding from it, that does not mean that the military can force parahumans who sign up to transfer. They may discharge them if they trigger while on duty, or refuse to accept them when they apply (assuming that Worm US is broadly similar to IRL US in this fashion, which could be wrong). Neither of those seem likely in the absence of direct evidence stating otherwise (which could exist; I haven't read Worm in a while).
Of course, none of that actually matters. The point at hand here is that you are saying that the US military cannot or does not employ parahumans. I, in return, am asking for a citation or some other form of evidence directly stating this. If you believe this to be unreasonable, please state why; I fully admit that I am often wrong, and appreciate the chance to correct my misapprehensions.
Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
Warning For Marginal Behavior
I am no longer continuing this line of discussion, as it serves no purpose. You two have clearly made up your minds as to what is proper debate etiquette, as well as the facts of the matter, and ultimately none of it has has any bearing on the story.
I bid you good evening, gentlemen.
I bid you good evening, gentlemen.
Mizu
Software Developer
- Location
- Victoria, Australia
People don't think of it as a thing he could make? Kinda like how Panacea-level healing machines are also things they don't think of, over more eye-catching flashy devices like giant mecha or teleportation.
- Location
- California
Wow, what a violent response! Not that Vicky didn't deserve it. ...Oh, uh, it seems that the last part was actually unrelated to Vicky and was just leading in to Taylor's next thought. ...Still, though.
Warning: Warning
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
warning
You engaged @SynchronizedWritersBlock and @einargs in debate and made the positive claim that "the Protectorate are not military" here. @SynchronizedWritersBlock then provided evidence contrary to your claim and questioned your assertion as an "unrealistic view", you then proceeded to casually dismiss their evidence while accusing them of misrepresenting you and debating in bad faith as well as turning the burden of proof on them to prove an entirely unprovable claim they had never made (which they had already come with sufficient evidence for). You then continued this pattern throughout the entire debate and never reciprorated the amount of citations and evidence that your opponents made use of, as well as accusing your opponents of having "clearly made up your minds as to what is proper debate etiquette". I'm giving you a warning for marginal behaviour and a request to not repeat this kind of behaviour.
Marsyas
Surprisingly Jellicle
- Location
- Undimensioned and Unseen
Revised bit:
"In the distance, I could see the massive, spikey bulk of the Garden of Time floating in the bay, an unnatural island that covered easily three times the area that the Protectorate Rig had covered, and which had only just started to seem normal; a United States Navy destroyer and half a dozen amphibious assault ships were clustered around it like a child's bathtoy playset. Coast Guard ships dotted the harbor, and they had a bunch of floating cranes and barges gathered around where a group of short sighted protesters had once sunk a container ship to block access to Lord's Port; I doubt they'd intended to kill what was left of the shipping industry in town and create the Boat Graveyard, but that's what had happened. A few miles outside the bay but still visible from the shore was the U.S.S. Enterprise and her escorts: a pair of cruisers, three destroyers, and two submarines prowling beneath the surface but plainly visible to my sensor spheres. Cargo helicopters were constantly flying in from the aircraft carrier with drinking water for the city, and it all just served as a reminder of how much had changed."
"In the distance, I could see the massive, spikey bulk of the Garden of Time floating in the bay, an unnatural island that covered easily three times the area that the Protectorate Rig had covered, and which had only just started to seem normal; a United States Navy destroyer and half a dozen amphibious assault ships were clustered around it like a child's bathtoy playset. Coast Guard ships dotted the harbor, and they had a bunch of floating cranes and barges gathered around where a group of short sighted protesters had once sunk a container ship to block access to Lord's Port; I doubt they'd intended to kill what was left of the shipping industry in town and create the Boat Graveyard, but that's what had happened. A few miles outside the bay but still visible from the shore was the U.S.S. Enterprise and her escorts: a pair of cruisers, three destroyers, and two submarines prowling beneath the surface but plainly visible to my sensor spheres. Cargo helicopters were constantly flying in from the aircraft carrier with drinking water for the city, and it all just served as a reminder of how much had changed."
- Location
- Blocksberg
Looks pretty good. I'd break up the paragraph a little, but that's me. Also, I'd switch around the numbers of destroyers vs assault ships in the harbor. The USN in 2017 has like 11 LHDs (amphibious assault ship designation, means Landing Helicopter Dock) total, vs 60-something destroyers. An LHD is a mini carrier, a destroyer is a missile-carrying escort with beefy radar.
Edit- Or maybe don't swap the numbers. An LHD with a half-dozen escorts or so would make sense while on patrol, but in friendlier waters, idk if it needs that much. Plus, the Navy would be prioritizing disaster relief, which would be better served with more chopper carriers. Hm...
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Marsyas
Surprisingly Jellicle
- Location
- Undimensioned and Unseen
Update: Here, have a preview of what's coming.
As always, if you don't want to be spoiled, don't read the spoiler.
As always, if you don't want to be spoiled, don't read the spoiler.
Dinah Alcott understood things better now than she had before Behemoth's attack, but it brought her little comfort. The threads of the future lay before her like a great tapestry already woven; eternity was, and it was mutable to an extent, but only to an extent. And though the vision of time was broad, when she passed through it, time became a narrow door, and then there were no more possibilities. Between the motion and the act, between the conception and the creation, between the essence and the descent there was an illusion of freedom; but if after all her power let her see of what was to come, what could or might be, what could not or might not, if she still harbored any notion of free will, it existed mostly as a prisoner rattling the bars of her cage. Any illusion of freedom perishes swiftest when the prisoner can see her cage, and Dinah had no choice but to see it.
Had Ziz seen it, too? Did the woman in the fedora?
Precognition, Dinah reflected, really sucked.
She'd joined the Wards. It was the best path forward that she could see. And she was learning more about her powers every day their scope and their limitations alike. Her official unveiling was going to happen the week after Easter, but she was in.
She saw Taylor walking through the upper halls in the PRT building, escorted by a pair of troopers on her way to meet with the Director and Chrono, and she started to say hello, but her future sight stopped the words in her throat. Two paths rose in her awareness; in one, she said hello to Taylor; in the other she kept quiet. She held the two timelines lightly, considering her action, not looking too closely at either possibility lest she become locked into that future, and neither seemed appreciably different from the other. If there were differences between the two futures, she'd need to look more closely to see them.
She didn't say hello. Taylor didn't see her. Dinah kept walking.
She was getting better at this. Partly because she'd realized how Ziz had tricked her into making Behemoth's early arrival a near-certainty -- there had been a trigger, and the passing on of that information to Taylor and to the upper echelons of the Protectorate had itself been the catalyst for the attack -- and partly because of the help of a specialist Alexandria had arranged for. He came by twice a week, on Mondays and Fridays. He said his name was Mr. Smith, and Dinah knew better but she was polite enough not to say so. He was a clean-shaven man, his blonde hair cut short, and he dressed himself in a dark suit with thin-rimmed glasses. Sometimes he had a pocket protector with pens in it, sometimes not.
He wasn't here today.
Had Ziz seen it, too? Did the woman in the fedora?
Precognition, Dinah reflected, really sucked.
She'd joined the Wards. It was the best path forward that she could see. And she was learning more about her powers every day their scope and their limitations alike. Her official unveiling was going to happen the week after Easter, but she was in.
She saw Taylor walking through the upper halls in the PRT building, escorted by a pair of troopers on her way to meet with the Director and Chrono, and she started to say hello, but her future sight stopped the words in her throat. Two paths rose in her awareness; in one, she said hello to Taylor; in the other she kept quiet. She held the two timelines lightly, considering her action, not looking too closely at either possibility lest she become locked into that future, and neither seemed appreciably different from the other. If there were differences between the two futures, she'd need to look more closely to see them.
She didn't say hello. Taylor didn't see her. Dinah kept walking.
She was getting better at this. Partly because she'd realized how Ziz had tricked her into making Behemoth's early arrival a near-certainty -- there had been a trigger, and the passing on of that information to Taylor and to the upper echelons of the Protectorate had itself been the catalyst for the attack -- and partly because of the help of a specialist Alexandria had arranged for. He came by twice a week, on Mondays and Fridays. He said his name was Mr. Smith, and Dinah knew better but she was polite enough not to say so. He was a clean-shaven man, his blonde hair cut short, and he dressed himself in a dark suit with thin-rimmed glasses. Sometimes he had a pocket protector with pens in it, sometimes not.
He wasn't here today.
Marsyas
Surprisingly Jellicle
- Location
- Undimensioned and Unseen
- Location
- Wellington, New Zealand
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Almost certainly Number Man.
A nice comparatively lightweight chapter, and I have to say I like the bit with the ships ... having an actual carrier group offshore had a real impact for 'For the government this is Serious Business' factor.
And Taylor finally finds out somebody is trying to send her a message, though we still don't know who or what they are trying to say 'aside from could you please die now, kthanks, bye'. I'm assuming the main topic of her visit is 'why are their dead versions of me around the place and you aren't telling me about this?'
It's good to see she's getting used to her new device, and trying to do the 'find out how the politics at school' work assignment. Incidentally, she is wrong that school doesn't serve a purpose ... she really could be better at peopling, though I can understand why she doesn't see it that way.
Blond nondescript guy who look like the quintessential accountant ? Number Man.
That was my thoguht as well.
The carrier is only useful for being a floating airstrip. Carriers should NOT be close to a threat. No U.S. Carrier has had surface-to-surface capabilities since WWII.
Are they using the aircraft to help with anything? If it is just to deter people from approaching, they should be using surface combatants, and not just cruisers, but some smaller patrol craft as well to deter small craft like speedboats where a harpoon or even a 5" shell would be overkill.
Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
You're a few days too late. The section was already edited. If you'd looked up, you'd have seen the section. Frankly, it should be in there already.
Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
You should have gotten a tiny bar-thing down below the last post prompting you to show more posts.