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[Mafia] Scarlet Hand Finale

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Nictis said:
@Tykan You mentioned that it looked like Wiadi and Meso were coordinating, elaborate? I also feel that it's worth mentioning that you are on the same lynch as Rosen, and that Meso is likely to be self verifying.
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mesonoxian said:
I still think a @-Rosen @Byzantine scum team seems likely.


Here he defends Rosen, trying to throw shade at @Wiadi for voting Rosen day one.

And here Rosen returns the favor, dismissing suspicion of Byzantine, when he quickly nulled out a vote so as not to be on record lynching Nanook. The claim was that he thought there was some exploding imp mechanic, but there was no reason to suspect that. But there is plenty of good reason for scum not to want to not be on record lynching town.

Here is Pawn disrupting momentum against Byzantine day 2.

And here Byzantine attempts to convince others not to engage with @Nictis early scum reads on Rosen and himself.

Byzantine has repeatedly been defended by and defended scum, while trying to undermine scum reads against them.
[X] Lynch Byzantine
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Wiadi said:
Technically true, but...

...yeah, still not really helping your case. And the fact that you responded by attempting to lynch Meso contrary to acknowledged consensus on the matter is also a bad look. Between that, QT's position, and my own lingering suspicions...

[X] Kill Byzantine
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Wiadi said:
[X] Lynch Byzantine

Consolidating on to the dominant terminology to avoid potential confusion.


Considering that at least one of the "lies" you pointed out was, while technically false, materially near-identical to what actually happened...I'm not exactly buying this as "meso 100% conf Scum!!!!" If you want to provide more direct documentation for other falsehoods - particularly ones which are not plausibly explained by simple errors of memory - then I might be more inclined to believe you.
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Wiadi said:
Some or all of the following, depending on individual:
  1. Possible linkage to -Rosen, who is now confirmed Scum
  2. Avoidance of NANOOK lynch EoD1 in a way that looks like Scum trying to avoid appearing to lynch a Townie
  3. Avoidance of voting Pawn EoD2, or addressing the arguments against him, in a way that looks like Scum trying to avoid getting Scum lynched while not being directly linked to them
  4. Claim to have been jailed/RB'd N1, followed by the appearance of a previously absent NK N2 (when Nictis was the one jailed/RB'd instead)
  5. Responses to having suspicion cast on him, particularly over the last couple pages, have not looked great
Think that about sums it up, though others can chime in if I missed anything.
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Mostly those. Maybe I'm jumping at shadows but it reads this way to me.
See I'm certain Meso is Scum. He does nothing for a while and then jumps hard at Byz with some sketchy arguments. And throughout the whole game Byz was always one of the easiest targets.
Wiadi's next action is to jump on the train.
The last quote is thrown in for good measure since several of those reasons are either weak or broadly contested by now:
2. Jester is rare but possible.
3. Let's be honest, that hit was mostly a luckshot for us. So that's not that condemning for me.
4. It's curious that he brings this one up since a lot of people by now expect Nanook to have done the kill.

I think it mostly boils down to a very strong feeling? But enough right now in combination with my earlier suspicions (Please don't ask me to voice them rn ^^) that I'd vote Wiadi.
 
About my vote:
I might change it before EoD as I said. I'm mostly on it rn because I had the small hope of it gaining traction again with Byz and QT(possibly) jumping on it. Which is rather dying down now.
 
Nictis said:
@Shadell Is there a reason beyond inactivity for the 1K vote?
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1K both talking down scum experience a bit while also playing up the QT dependency strikes me as suspicious in general, and a quick skim through the numbers didn't really paint a convincing picture to back that up. That's hardly deterministic, but it's enough for me to trust my gut read there. That said, I don't think this has much momentum atm, and reviewing Deathvon I'm more eager to push that angle right now, especially since today has probably been 1K's most active day, so we may be able to get more to go on with her tomorrow as well.


OTOH, Deathvon has posted very little useful, and what reads we do have are often along the lines of:

Deathvon said:
Shadell is voting themselves? Guess I have no reason not to. Though I do believe them in their role claim, bodyguard is a pretty big role to claim I think. Eh, I won't vote just yet.
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It's almost performative inaction.

Deathvon's also gone out of their way to put in a lot of tallies and the like, which is helpful, but also a very cheap way of looking affable to the thread, and, while they have a decent number of posts, the number of posts that are below 2-30 words (excluding quotes) is really high, with very little of any meat.

I'd buy this a lot more were it not for this post:

Deathvon said:
Nanook seemed to be fully sure of his stance but changed it when given enough true evidence which is much more a town or neutral move then a scum one. Also, the major reason some are voting for him is that he is "annoying" and "frustating to deal with", which I won't deny as his only reason for voting for me is wanting a third wagon, but he doesn't have enough proof to be killed over people like Byz and -Rosen who have more proof they are scum like the evidence they might be working together. However, this is a bit early to be especially concrete I expect to learn more by tomorrow to get a more concrete read.
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This is Deathvon's longest in the thread, and it's actually engaging with the game and its conceits at a much deeper level than basically just summarizing the above post and doing nothing as above.

At the same time, the same lack of decision, being too light to fall on either side with any degree of certainty shows here as well. If I had to analyze it, this strikes me as caring about self-preservation more than getting anyone, when town tends to have numbers on its side and sacrificing yourself to take a scum with you is actually a very good trade. It's not necessarily scummy as that can just be playstyle, but, to me it almost makes me think 3P, which would be a very informative flip if true.

[x] Deathvon
 
Okay, got a second to post a slightly longer answer as to why I healed Hobo night 2.

Basically, @Nictis started giving Hobo a strong town read with nothing solid I could see to support it starting Day 2. Then he came out an confirmed the existence of VTs without admitting to being one himself. At that point it was pretty clear to me he had some investigative role that cleared Hobo. And if I noticed it, I bet someone on the scum team would have, too.

I figured scum wouldn't go after Nictis, because he was likely to be Watched or protected. I went back and forth between Hobo because the ghost mechanic raised the possibility of Hobo as cleared town once Nictis died and I figured they'd want to prevent that). And ondine who was doing a lot of aggressive scum hunting. In the end I picked Hobo.

The scum killed Nictis and Ondine got ghost exploded, while nobody touched Hobo.
 
mesonoxian said:
Okay, got a second to post a slightly longer answer as to why I healed Hobo night 2.

Basically, @Nictis started giving Hobo a strong town read with nothing solid I could see to support it starting Day 2. Then he came out an confirmed the existence of VTs without admitting to being one himself. At that point it was pretty clear to me he had some investigative role that cleared Hobo. And if I noticed it, I bet someone on the scum team would have, too.

I figured scum wouldn't go after Nictis, because he was likely to be Watched or protected. I went back and forth between Hobo because the ghost mechanic raised the possibility of Hobo as cleared town once Nictis died and I figured they'd want to prevent that). And ondine who was doing a lot of aggressive scum hunting. In the end I picked Hobo.

The scum killed Nictis and Ondine got ghost exploded, while nobody touched Hobo.
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Welp, that's a townread from me.
 
It is nice to see that people do pick up the little hints I leave in case I get vaporized.

I suppose I might as well truly claim at this point. I am a rolecop, I see what abilities, if any, another player has. I am about 95% sure that Hobo is Town from the result I got and from his actions during EoD2.
 
Nictis said:
@Tykan You mentioned that it looked like Wiadi and Meso were coordinating, elaborate? I also feel that it's worth mentioning that you are on the same lynch as Rosen, and that Meso is likely to be self verifying.
@UnderlingMaster Why are you voting Shadell again? Three sentences or two quotes, please.
@QTesseract How do you feel about Byzantine's claim of being Vanilla, and the point where he mentioned hinting at it Day 1?
@Shadell Is there a reason beyond inactivity for the 1K vote?
@ComiTurtle ???
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I think he's either vanilla or Serial Killer. I don't see his play as being team scum.

If there is a serial killer, it's almost certainly byzantine and he needs to go. If there isn't a serial killer, than I'm willing to believe byzantine's vanilla claim.
 
QTesseract said:
I think he's either vanilla or Serial Killer. I don't see his play as being team scum.

If there is a serial killer, it's almost certainly byzantine and he needs to go. If there isn't a serial killer, than I'm willing to believe byzantine's vanilla claim.
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To elaborate on this, I've been considering lynching someone else and only returning to Byzantine if it the potentially SK kills continue, but I haven't felt any other lynch strongly enough to switch.
 
We have way too many inactives this game, and I think that is distorting things. If there are a couple of scum in the sub-50 post group, then we are left scum reading each other. But if we lynch the inactives, we're effectively just guessing at random while scum nightkill away. It is more than a bit frustrating.
 
It's not a crushingly strong lynch but I feel better with it than lynching Byz who I think is town.
Or Deathvon, which might be reasonable but feels cheap.
 
Okay, the funeral home does have wifi.

On the topic of lynching, I have no idea who to vote for, but I understand that people are going for Deathvon or Byzantine? I know the reasoning for Byzantine, but can someone explain why Deathvon is a viable Lynch for today?
 
QTesseract said:
To elaborate on this, I've been considering lynching someone else and only returning to Byzantine if it the potentially SK kills continue, but I haven't felt any other lynch strongly enough to switch.
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I'm split on this one, I will admit that I don't think NANOOK killed ondine. From it not matching the flavor (Weaker point) to taking personal issue with the Veteran gaining a Vig action after dying, and the other power roles not receiving one post death while the Vanilla did.

But at the same time I'm not really feeling that Byzantine is an SK here, but I also feel that if anyone was given a fake rolecard it'd be the SK, someone who probably wants to repurpose the ritual or some such.

I'm split.
 
ItzNarcotic said:
Okay, the funeral home does have wifi.

On the topic of lynching, I have no idea who to vote for, but I understand that people are going for Deathvon or Byzantine? I know the reasoning for Byzantine, but can someone explain why Deathvon is a viable Lynch for today?
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Inactive and of low substance when they are active.
 
I really can't tell what I want to vote for. If it comes down to Byzantine or Deathvon, I would probably go Deathvon if only because Byz's role sounds kinda plausible to me, but I am so uncertain. Literally the only people I can't really decide whether they have any towny or scummy actions over are the people who keep refusing to talk or say much at all relevant or alignment indicating, like Rayday, 1K, Happerry, Narcotic, Underling, and a little bit on Deathvon and Tykan but not to the same extent. At the same time though, not talking isn't necessarily scummy, as I learned vig'ing Puppet (who turned Town) in the pirate game because he repeatedly refused to engage despite being active everywhere else. I guess the main issue I am having is that we are largely the same crew talking over the same or similar conversations over these past few days with the same people consistently being largely absent from those very conversations and it's messing with my ability to read even more than it is already messed up.
 
Wow looking to kill me again huh? Hate that have to do this again especiallly since I don't see any problems with Byz myself anymore. Eh but self preservation, playing a game is much more fun than spectating.

PyrrosWarrior said:
ComiTurtle now, since I forgot Happerry was subbed out.

Anyhow, we apparently have 17 minutes rather than 1 hour 17 like I thought, so I'll go ahead with that Deathvon vote.

[X] lynch Deathvon

The tie is broken.
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No thank you.

[X] Kill Byzantine
 
ondine said:
[X] lynch Pawn Lelouch
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Deathvon said:
Yeah yeah. So, are we lynching today or not? I don't see a reason to unless someone slips up. Then again we can't found anything if we don't lynch so...

Wait people are lynching already? Guess i'll choose a side.

[X] Lynch ondine

I love theatrics as much as the next guy but lynching someone at the start is pretty sus right?
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Deathvon said:
[X] Null
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Deathvon said:
Cause I don't want to lynch ondine anymore besides I am very confused on who to vote on. Maybe I should vote on one of the top three with the most votes? I kinda like -Rosen's shtick and I don't yet see any reason to vote for Pawn so i'll go with...

[X] Lynch Byzantine
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Votes ondine for voting Pawn. Retracts vote because they don't want to vote ondine for... No visible reason. The only real comment made by ondine between these points is questioning the "Death is a promotion" thing. Claims to not see any reason to vote Pawn so they vote Byzantine... Without any reason.
Deathvon said:
[X] Null
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Deathvon said:
I feel Nanook seems the most scum out of everyone right now. We got until 7:00 pm tomorrow leaving enough time to think though. I will vote for Nanook and reevaluate once I get a clearer idea tomorrow.

[X] Lynch Nanook
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Unvotes without reasoning, pushes NANOOK while Pawn is arguing a Town NANOOK.
Pawn Lelouch said:
Opportunistic and extremely weak~

[X] Null
[X] Lynch Deathvon
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Nictis said:
No u
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Deathvon said:
[X] Null
[X] Lynch Pawn Lelouch

No u.
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Pawn latches onto Deathvon's post as a lynch candidate in a way that felt off to me initially. Deathvon votes Pawn while quoting me.
Deathvon said:
Also, if we really want to see if Byz and -Rosen are scum together we should wait until one investigates one or the other. Putting them up on the chopping block could lead to us killing a townie for little gain.
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Pawn Lelouch said:
So playing the game? We obviously want to catch scum but lynches still give us important information. And that train of logic follows the same one of no lynching.

IE delay until we can be sure, which is never going to happen unless there is a lucky cop. And that loses town games by removing our best power. So no, let's not do this.
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There's this, which is... Well, it's something. Allow one of Byzantine or Rosen to investigate the other instead of killing one now. There's a fear of killing Town which seems off.
Deathvon said:
Back again. Now let me just null my previous vote as it was a joke vote. Need to reread the day to get my final true vote (hopefully). As we have less than 12 hours after I post this.

[X] Null
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Pawn is a jokevote.
Deathvon said:
No-

*record scratch*

You almost got me there. But I feel it is more likely, with the evidence so far, that Byz and -Rosen are scum together. Since Byz is in a tie with Nanook and more likely to be lynched then -Rosen I will vote for Byz. Surprisingly I also got a town or at least neutral role for Nanook.

[X] Lynch Byzantine
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Suspects a Byzantine/Rosen connection, but is Townreading NANOOK. After previously stating that NANOOK is scummy.
Deathvon said:
Nanook seemed to be fully sure of his stance but changed it when given enough true evidence which is much more a town or neutral move then a scum one. Also, the major reason some are voting for him is that he is "annoying" and "frustating to deal with", which I won't deny as his only reason for voting for me is wanting a third wagon, but he doesn't have enough proof to be killed over people like Byz and -Rosen who have more proof they are scum like the evidence they might be working together. However, this is a bit early to be especially concrete I expect to learn more by tomorrow to get a more concrete read.

Finally, I must change my vote.

[X] Kill Byzantine
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Good reasoning re: NANOOK. Uncertain on the Byzantine vote and the team linking between Byz and Rosen. Likely just because of the stated reasoning, that Byzantine had votes and Rosen didn't, but part of me questions if it was to make the Town of the pair die first.
Deathvon said:
Well, it looks like my vote isn't winning and it seemed almost everyone else think my reasoning is stupid. So i'll null my vote. I shall also vote on Nanook just so I can't die, the majority probably knows more than I. Plus, best to learn if this supposed scum team is real. If Nanook is scum then we know who to target and if they aren't we could ask questions on D2 on Nictis and -Rosen/Byz.

[X] Null
[X] Kill Nanook
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Self pres. Vote. Continued suspicion towards Byz/Rosen, and a comment towards the suggested NANOOK/Byz/Rosen team.
-Rosen said:
What makes this team-read automatically accurate if NANOOK flips scum though? So far you're the only one I've seen take such an extreme stance on the matter.
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Deathvon said:
I am not saying that they are scum, I am saying it is more possible. Plus, I just don't want to die. Don't know how I bolded this ignore it(bold).
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Self pres vote, and explaining scum team reasoning.
Deathvon said:
Yeah Nictis doesn't seem that scummy. I feel it is kinda a similar situation to the Nanook vote as people are mainly voting for Nictis because they didn't contribute that much even tho they are a vet and posted 8 pages worthy of content and mostly posts meme posts.
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Don't like this much, but meh.

Deathvon said:
Maybe they thought you were too dangerous to keep alive? Maybe they thought you had a investigative role, since you claimed there were vanillas in this game while not being one yourself?

...I am just guessing at this point.
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This one I don't really like.

I think that Deathvon might be Town, bleh. Also: Some quotes redacted due to leakage.
 
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