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Mackie wasn't a Maus after all: Nukashuba strikes back

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Aineko said:
I'm not sure who has the XL engines with the DHS. But the ERLL and MASC samples are with the USNN, who are (A) not us and (B) not the audience of this design.
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Sorry if have been a bit irritable, been in and out of hospital recently so is stressful.

To answer your points.... This Goal we are aiming for is in the interests of any still self governing Papolris state actor.

In a way it is akin to MANY MAUS.

@tomwritestuff gave us the info on salvage and engines used by other states to show what can potentially be leveraged and pursued.

They would not have included it if we could not try to use it somehow.

Essentially we need a mech that is cheap, easy and quick to build and can be used by anyone fighting Comstar influence and military forces.

That does not however negate that if we can add in a new tech that boosts capabilities and will be shared to all, that we should do so.

tomwritestuff said:
The USNN salvaged engines from two Lancelots and an Exterminator. They don't necessarily understand the technology, but they have examples of it.
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Thank you.

Am I correct in my understanding as stated above?

Sacredefiler said:
A compromise we could make on the ERLL front, is to build mechs with Large Lasers, and do a later 'upgrade' variant that does a direct swap. Or tries to. Would run quite hot, then, but it would probably be the single long range weapon being fired.

I'm the kind of designer that prefers PPCs over large lasers, but sometimes sacrifices need to be made.
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Sure for us PPC's are great, but they are more of a Nukashuba thing in terms of both focus and manufacturing ability, only the USNN really can use PPC's close to us with standard models and LPPC's which we yoinked from them.

The ERLL is justified by the tonnage being the same as a standard LL but with a bonus to Range.

By sharing it with all we give our notional allies a boost against Comstar but not against us.

It also gives us valuable expertise and knowledge on improving Lasers, which may be a path to ER Medium Lasers.

MASC is worth pursuing as it lets us focus on cheaper, lighter and slower Fusion Engines yet still have access to speeds of Engines that are heavier and more expensive.

It also avoids sharing our Light Engines, though other States now have captured XL and IS-DHS.

Which is a good reason to maybe chase XL and IS-DHS, as it reserves Light Engines for us and we could request access to UNSS data from their XL and IS-DHS R&D which guaranteed is ongoing.

So us pursuing such could be a bonus if we share Data and Experts for it.
 
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I really don't see why you'd think a mech design we're sending to the small free states will be able to incorporate technology that only the USNN has samples of.
 
Aineko said:
I really don't see why you'd think a mech design we're sending to the small free states will be able to incorporate technology that only the USNN has samples of.
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Mainly because they can be induced to share and we can then then share as well.

If we spread out know how and hardware to produce said Mech, then we can have no single point of dependency, this is why I voted for multiple factory location sites.

Obviously we can not instantly do this, it requires us to Reverse Engineer and Incorporate first, then share Production Data and Experts, Tech etc.

I think ultimately the difference of opinion we have on this falls on that I view taking a risk on rolls for a possibly valuable reward, where as you would prefer to take less risks and focus on already known tech and keep things simpler.

The other reason than a high performing mech that drives my opinion, is we could be hitting multiple goals by doing so.

Provide an excellent combatant. Yes.
Upgrade our Tech. Yes.
Upgrade our Allies Tech. Yes.
Retain High Tech Advantages. Yes.
Keep Comstar occupied. Yes.
Etc
 
I mean, if the USNN is going to ship salvage to Nukashuba for reverse engineering, in this project, I'm all for that, but that seems like a weird expectation.
 
Aineko said:
I mean, if the USNN is going to ship salvage to Nukashuba for reverse engineering, in this project, I'm all for that, but that seems like a weird expectation.
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It would likely involve some political horse trading of some sort, but it really is a case of shared mutual interest.

Just comes down to who feels the least or most successful at gaining advantage in said agreement.
 
TheOmnimercurial said:
It would likely involve some political horse trading of some sort, but it really is a case of shared mutual interest.
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Hmmm... At the moment though, it's still 'foggy' at best. So we're not sure if we'll be able to fool around with it not to mention we don't exactly picked a political character for most of the choices.

Thoughts on a 60-ton 'Thug'? Large Lasers instead of PPCs and maybe six Medium Lasers for the twin SRM-6s instead? And rather than eighteen DHS, just eighteen SHS? It's under the 240 Standard Engine too whilst at 12.5 tonnage of armor. No CASE or Endo-Composite for obvious reasons.

Ruffian RFN-01
Base Tech Level: Introductory (IS)


Level​
Era​
Experimental​
-​
Advanced​
-​
Standard​
3020+​
Tech Rating: D/X-E-D-D

Weight: 60 tons
BV: 1,363
Cost: 4,839,360 C-bills

Movement: 4/6
Engine: 240 Fusion
Heat Sinks: 18
Gyro: Standard Gyro

Internal: 99
Armor: 200/201


​
Internal​
Armor​
​
​
Head​
3​
9​
​
​
Center Torso​
20​
30​
​
​
Center Torso (rear)​
​
9​
​
​
Right Torso​
14​
22​
​
​
Right Torso (rear)​
​
6​
​
​
Left Torso​
14​
22​
​
​
Left Torso (rear)​
​
6​
​
​
Right Arm​
10​
20​
​
​
Left Arm​
10​
20​
​
​
Right Leg​
14​
28​
​
​
Left Leg​
14​
28​
​
​



Weapons​
Loc​
Heat​
​
Large Laser​
RA​
8​
​
Large Laser​
LA​
8​
​
Medium Laser​
CT​
3​
​
Medium Laser​
CT​
3​
​
Medium Laser​
RT​
3​
​
Medium Laser​
LT​
3​
​
Medium Laser​
RT​
3​
​
Medium Laser​
LT​
3​
​
 
Toasty!

(I definitely like lasers more but I do remember finding often the heat justified using other weapons on SHS platforms.)

Obviously your lasermech doesn't need CASE, but I would note that CASE is ubiquitous in mechs produced on Nudezret today, except the Ghost import designs. So it's a tech we can use if we want to.
 
Aineko said:
Toasty!

(I definitely like lasers more but I do remember finding often the heat justified using other weapons on SHS platforms.)

Obviously your lasermech doesn't need CASE, but I would note that CASE is ubiquitous in mechs produced on Nudezret today, except the Ghost import designs. So it's a tech we can use if we want to.
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Fair, but if we're planning on using CASE, then that means we would be fielding weapons with ammo usage. @_@;

..tried initially doing twin SRM-6s/4s with a pair of LL and CASE-ing but I need to throw in Endo-Composite and decrease armor down to 10.5 which isn't.. really good in my books. @_@; Still at 18 SHS at that too.

Toasty Mech doesn't really become Toasty once DHS gets introduced... :V Might be awhile to reverse-engineer IS DHS and to yeet it to the rest of Palporis without it being intercepted somewhat.
 
DiscordOxymoron said:
air, but if we're planning on using CASE, then that means we would be fielding weapons with ammo usage. @_@;
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For sure, there's no prize for including CASE on the mech. Just making sure it was known that the only prize for not using it is not having to fit it in.
DiscordOxymoron said:
Toasty Mech doesn't really become Toasty once DHS gets introduced... :V Might be awhile to reverse-engineer IS DHS and to yeet it to the rest of Palporis without it being intercepted somewhat.
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I wonder how the politics of that will go - at this point it's probably worth it to hurt the Ghosts but (even with IS instead of Clan DHS) that does give away Nukashuba's biggest tech advantage.

It's also probably worth it if we can get in the loop because unless they lose the USNN will probably crack it sooner or later without our help...
 
I do like the Ruffian design. It's not actually that toasty, with firing either the short range 6xML battery to generate walking heat, or the 2xLL longer range battery. and generate no heat/actually sink some if walking or standing still.
Still would find a little bit of tonnage for maybe a flamer instead of a single ML or something similar to make it a little more multipurpose, but I can support it as-is, because hopefully stacking similar weapons systems would help with maintenance a little.

(Watch it develop 'poor cooling jacket' in production for the torso lasers or something)

I did some more designing, and exploring the 40 ton 6/9/6 concept (using the 240 standard engine SFE, like the Sentinel), gives 15.5 tons of payload.
Which happens to be enough for 7.5 tons of armor and 8 tons of weapons, enough for a large laser and 3x medium lasers.

It does step on the toes of the super wasp a little.

Probably getting to the point to actually propose a design for voting.
 
DiscordOxymoron said:
Was thinking maybe a Flamer replaces an ML in the CT..? Not sure and currently at work so people can go ahead and fool around with the design. @_@;

..I've yet to see if we can translate said mech into Quad for the Piloting Bonus though.. due to being at work. :V
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I'm not sure it's desirable, but it shouldn't be hard. Quads have significantly fewer available crits (because front legs instead of arms) but 10 crits of lasers and 9 (?) crits of HS should have no problem fitting into just the torsos. And you don't have lightweight structure demanding a big sacrifice of crit slots.

Tangent: technologically speaking, I think we may have access to composite structure. Would have to check. Composite is kind of bad - it combines the best elements of standard and endosteel structure but suffers double damage. However it might not need microgravity production. Probably not suitable for current purposes anyway.
 
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Not married to it, could be convinced to throw support behind another if I see a better design.

[X] [Engineering] Guerilla G-11A
Original Design
Description: 40-ton Mech bipedal mech using salvaged Ghost 240 SFE Sentinel engine for a similar speed, but trading the ammunition-based weaponry for a pure laser loadout, jump jets, and thicker armor to outfight mechs of a similar weight class, or escape from heavier machines freely when engaging in asymmetric warfare. It forgoes smaller anti-infantry weapons to focus fully on its anti-mech role.
The Guerilla also retains full hand actuators, to better help with salvage operations in the field, and boasts uncommonly thick rear armor for its weight class to support escapes under fire.

Moderate tolerance.
Build a Prototype: Yes
Parts to be shipped: 240 SFE engine, to aid in reproducing initially, then but no other advanced components.

[X] [Travel] Stay on Nukashuba.

I could post a record sheet, if its preferred, but hopefully I sketched out enough of a machine that our designers can play with it and come up with something acceptable without explicitly writing one and being given a bunch of negative quirks. The extra rear armor bit could be removed (It's more for flavor), but I do want the hands.

SFE engine, single heat sinks, standard structure, all merely basic introtech.
We can make an upteched variant some other day with Stealth Armor, DHS, Endo-composite, and all the bells and whistles. Later, though.
 
Aineko said:
Tangent: technologically speaking, I think we may have access to composite structure. Would have to check. Composite is kind of bad - it combines the best elements of standard and endosteel structure but suffers double damage. However it might not need microgravity production. Probably not suitable for current purposes anyway.
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Last I checked, we needed to roll for it last quest and we got lucky with Endo-Composite. Getting Composite will be Gucci in my books though as that can be applied to LAMs which I want to fool around. And the navy might be interested on 'space mechs' so yeah...

Sacredefiler said:
Snip.
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I'm dreading the fact that sure, it's fast and may be fully armored but last I spun this around it only had a single or two lasers without compromising on said jump Jets and Armor. And that's at 10 SHS. And I'd rather not yeet Endo-Composite at it either.
 
DiscordOxymoron said:
Last I checked, we needed to roll for it last quest and we got lucky with Endo-Composite. Getting Composite will be Gucci in my books though as that can be applied to LAMs which I want to fool around. And the navy might be interested on 'space mechs' so yeah...
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Checking the order in the table, yeah, composite would be an 'upgrade' from endo, and I don't think we ever rolled our way to it because we didn't bother to shake up the good thing we already had with endo-composite.
DiscordOxymoron said:
I'm dreading the fact that sure, it's fast and may be fully armored but last I spun this around it only had a single or two lasers without compromising on said jump Jets and Armor. And that's at 10 SHS. And I'd rather not yeet Endo-Composite at it either.
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The math checks out for fitting in 1 LL and 3 ML.

Though yeah the heat budget is really bad if you're using your jump and your weapons at the same time.
 
Jump jets are supposed to be for that important disengagement and strategic mobility, which is why I don't want to compromise on them. Or when cooking yourself because the pilot did the boneheaded move of alpha striking and needs to get out ASAP while taking a turn off.
It's supposed to be large laser and run, or a short range battery and run, both of which work decent enough on the 10 basic SHS.

Unless we go to ballistics aka ammo-based loadout, with SHS we aren't going to get super cool running without giving something else up. Especially when tonnage is tight.

On a different note, going to Quad on your Ruffian might allow the interesting tactic of sticking sinks in a bunch of legs, allowing for a bit more cooling in niche scenarios. It's something we haven't really been able to exploit with our repeated usage of stealth armor/CLPS, but for a lowtech mech like this, it's another tactic in the book.
 
Sacredefiler said:
On a different note, going to Quad on your Ruffian might allow the interesting tactic of sticking sinks in a bunch of legs, allowing for a bit more cooling in niche scenarios. It's something we haven't really been able to exploit with our repeated usage of stealth armor/CLPS, but for a lowtech mech like this, it's another tactic in the book.
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With SHS you can fit two HS per leg, so that's already four for a biped. (IIRC we did pay attention to this with Ravens, but they're Ravens.)
 
Well... The only way that the Guerilla doesn't have Heat Problems if we prioritize it getting Combat Computer for the +4(or was it +2?) Heat that's also a thing to the Stone Sword Scorpions. Issue is I'm not sure how can we get it to be RNG'ed in.

..ditto with the Ruffian, now that I think about it, being able to move about once in ML range.
 
Compact Gyro is a decent if not good investment in many cases, especially on Assaults. 1-2 tons is pretty easy to pay for two extra Crits.
 
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By the Horns said:
Compact Gyro is a decent if not good investment in many cases, especially on Assaults. 1-2 tons is pretty easy to pay for two extra Crits.
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..we have access to Compact Gyro? Last I checked we only had Compact Engine and XL Gyro (from the USNN)? o_O

TheOmnimercurial said:
Compact FE could free up more Crits on the Quad?

Lose tonnage though.
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Not sure how much tonnage it eats for a 40-tonner but putting every weapon on the CT might be doable...

.. actually, thinking about it, maybes that why I only had a Large and a Medium due to Compact Engine. Hm.

Compact Stuff on brawlers/frontliners is good stuff but yeah, I might have to check what happens if I put it on the Ruffian... Didn't I send a Grasshopper Lite earlier? I think that was the first end result?
 
DiscordOxymoron said:
..we have access to Compact Gyro? Last I checked we only had Compact Engine and XL Gyro (from the USNN)? o_O
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We invented XL gyro, the USNN got it from us in MANY MICE because we couldn't find anything else to make the MAD-CAT halfway okay.

We don't have the compact gyro, technically, but that one we can easily invent for ourselves using the downgrading rules, assuming those are still in play.

That said, I don't understand why we'd at all want to trade tonnage for crits under existing circumstances. Tonnage is the best resource, and we've got more than enough crits.
 
DiscordOxymoron said:
It's not because it's for more slots but the costs too? Of CFE being SFE price (not the actual one in MML) but 20% cheaper? If we want to amass this, not to mention almost all of Palporis has access to CFE, well... @_@;
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20% cheaper engine is nice and all, but 50% heavier engine usually reduces the mech's performance by more than the cost savings IMO. Especially if we're building something faster than an Atlas (or Redjack).

I believe there's some kinds of mechs where the big CT space is actually a prize worth paying tonnage for, but I don't think that's most mechs.

It's true it might make production go better, but it also means our mech will have a hard time outperforming what they already have. There needs to be some kind of upside on this so it's better to pick up the new design than churn out more of the old ones...

Though I guess there is a point that free Nudezret lacks 4/6 mechs that aren't ungainly assaults or salvage, on that point.

I'd rather our freedom fighters have a mech that I think will give them an advantage mech to mech and/or an ability to outmaneuver the opposition than one that hopes to have them compete with South District 216b's on volume though...
 
Aineko said:
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Well, if we don't plan on using CFEs, then the only SFEs that so believe we can fool around 'safely' is the aforementioned 240 and 275.

Which means 40, 55 or 60, and if forgoing costs:

The fastest here would obviously be the 40 with 6 Move due to a 240 Engine. Weapons not withstanding obviously (and SHS of course) if we want to maximize armor and JJs to allow maximum survivability of our would be freedom fighters.

55 is the middle ground with 5 Move at 275 Engine, and, well, we could do a lot of things with it and there's a lot of inspiration in said specific tonnage.

60 is the slowest at 4 Move on a 240 Engine, but also the most armored. Adding JJs eats 4 tons and I've already given my examples of the Laserman and Ruffian about it.

Then there's potentially the Quads if our freedom fighters are.more green than ever somewhat.

..but yeah, we'll have to decide soon, and there's already the Rascal being proposed for a 40 tonner at Nukashuba.
 
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