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Considering the Yuri subtext involves a ten and twelve years old, I don't think so.
Lyrical Nanoha gets a moe Loli spin-off
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Considering the Yuri subtext involves a ten and twelve years old, I don't think so.
Itgotworse 26
And worse and worse....
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Well, I was thinking about Fate and Nanoha, but ok.
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I think the closest they would come to it, is to suggest that Nanoha and Fate share the same bed, but not go into any more details than that, leaving the viewers to draw their own conclusions as they will. Though the "two mummies" part more or less is probably all you are going to see, from a child's perspective if indeed Yuri is happening - it's a clear reference to Homosexuals couples adopting children. I'm not sure how the anime can get any more obvious with the Yuri short of H scenes - if by Yuri, you mean the implication of homosexuality - since the entire family structure Vivio is in, if you think of it carefully, is clearly meant to refer to a Pro LGBT conception of the family; without explicitly saying it of course.
Think of it for a moment. Nanoha and Fate live together, and are implied to be sleeping in the same bedroom. If I remember correctly, Nanoha and Fate take baths together. Nanoha and Fate are both referred to as Mamas by Vivio. This is about as close as we can get, to implying a Pro LGBT family conception, without explicitly stating it. I'm not sure whether there's even a point of explicitly saying it. Not only that, Nanoha Vivid is painting that very family structure that Pro LGBT marriage advocates argue is viable, in a very positive light. I would argue that even by the standards of Western shows, let alone Japan, Nanoha Vivid is remarkably Pro LGBT by implication, by it's positive portrayal of what is essentially a same-sex parenting structure as a healthy environment for a child to grow in.
In many traditional Yuri plots, Nanoha and Fate would have "outgrown" those Yuri implications as adults. The fact that the Yuri subtext is even further reinforced and strengthened, when Nanoha and Fate are fully adults I think outweighs any blatant direct admission.
TLDR: Nanoha Vivid is a very progressive anime by implication. And it does so without shoving it's Pro LGBT stance in it's audience face. The subtext... should just remain as subtext - any further, and it just becomes bad writing.
I am actually surprised that Japanese social conservatives aren't demonizing this anime. And if it does get an English Dub, I can imagine certain social conservative groups in the West, demonizing this show.
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Itgotworse 26
And worse and worse....
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Thanks for the dossier. I knew that the Yuri genre could get immature from time to time, but knowing that Nanoha is progressive compared to its contemporaries is comforting. I just hope they could actually dedicate a short OVA to them actually getting married.
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notthepenguins
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They could, you know, kiss, or show explicit romantic interest in one another. You know, what is generally done in PG films? I don't think they've even said they love each other directly. Why would you even jump to H-scenes here?
The point of explicitly stating it is that subtext is not text, and representation you need to hunt down and interpret to understand... isn't what is needed anymore. Do you seriously not understand the meaningful difference between an implied relationship and an explicit one? They haven't even reached Disney-grade romantic indicators yet.
Yes. However, it would be even better in that regard if it wasn't implication.
This is true in older yuri, and far less true of more modern works.
ViVid is hardly the gayest show this cour; that title goes to Mikagura Gakuen Kumikyoku.
More would not go well with getting aired. Japan is pretty conservative about public displays of affection.
notthepenguins
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Perhaps. I doubt Nanoha as a series is on such fragile ground that they couldn't do so, but it is possible it would cause problems. That is, however, irrelevant to the statement I was making, which is that there is plenty more they could do to make their relationship obvious outside of porn.
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But is there plenty more they need to do, when the main focus is on Vivio, and not so much on Nanoha-Fate's relationship? When in story, Nanoha and Fate's relationship is important in so far that it defines the family structure Vivio is raised up in, and how Vivio sees relationships (she definitely got the idea of fighting Einhart to befriend her from Nanoha and Fate's life experiences). I don't think Vivid's primary theme is to deliver a Pro-LGBT message (that's a secondary result), even if the very Mangaka makes his stance on same-sex parenting rather clear, and hence, by implication, his position on the LGBT agenda.
When you have Vivio calling Fate and Nanoha as Mamas, that's definitely crosses from undertones to a fairly clear and positive portrayal of a Same-sex parenting structure. I don't think having Nanoha and Fate making out in front of Vivio is actually going to contribute in any meaningful way, especially if it's written coming from the social context where extremely blatant expressions of romantic affection aren't necessarily the norm in-front of children. In-fact, to me that's hilariously bad and insecure writing. The point has been made clearly, anything else is just padding.
In any case, this episode marks approximately the point of time where the focus will shift from Vivio within her family, to Vivio within an expanding social circle - starting from Einhart. Nano-Fate is not a primary theme in Vivid, but merely a background. Also, the theme of Magical Combat as an actual sport that Children in Mid-Childa participate in, is going to be explored.
If you've seen various Sports Manga and anime before, and Shounen Tournament arcs, you should have a fairly clear idea what to expect from Vivid and where Vivd is heading. Of course, Vivid adds it's own particular Nanohaish twist to familiar tropes, and has some fairly compelling badasses in it's character cast. That's why quite a few manga readers were delighted to see a certain hooded figure in the flashback.
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notthepenguins
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I see, kissing is reserved for porn. I'll just get on the phone with Disney and let them know that they should really cut it out if they're not going to go all the way and make pornography.
Please, quote for me where I said that ViVid's agenda was to advance an LGBT message.
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I'm not accusing you of that. I'm just saying this is not Vivid's main aim, and hence, I don't really see why the show should bother to go out of their way to be more obvious.
notthepenguins
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I never said it should. I'd like it if it did, but their choices are their own. You, however, were asserting that they could not be any more direct about Fate and Nanoha's relationship without becoming pornography.
Also, nice job editing more things into your post after I replied.
Did I ever indicate that Nanoha and Fate should have a makeout session?
I have read the manga, you know.
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And as we all know, anything more obvious then the couple existing in the background will clearly be a porn scene, right?
Right.
In Japan, chaste kisses are no go in front of the children. Different cultural context. This is true even for more ordinary families, affection is reserved for the two primary parties only, unless the show is intentionally being lewd(take Vividred for the approximate propriety levels).
notthepenguins
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The camera is not shackled to Vivio, and can look at characters she is not actually around.
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Let's do a quick thought exercise. If Nanoha and Fate were heterosexual adoptive parents in a magical girl anime, would the camera switch to them and very deliberately go out of the way to show they are a romantic couple, in a show with a primary protagonist as a child? Now, it could be argued that the same rules don't apply to Homosexuality - because Heterosexuality is the norm, no story needs to go the extra mile to further prove romantic relations in a household of heterosexual parents, especially in the cultural context where even heterosexual displays of romantic attraction.. aren't usually done in the presence of children. But because Homosexuality isn't considered a norm, extra and deliberate effort must be made to truly emphasize that the family unit is led by homosexuals.
In my opinion, this isn't exactly the best way to demonstrate the claim made by Pro-LGBT advocates, that same-sex parenting is natural and just as good an environment for a child - if anything that way shows insecurity. If anything, Vivid's portrayal of parenting along the same lines as a normal heterosexual coupling, using the same cultural motifs of "good parenting" you'd expect to see in anime, is actually a far more positive portrayal of same-sex parenting then the camera cutting away to focus on Nanoha and Fate's relationship in deeper detail. The basic message has more or less been that Same-sex parenting is compatible with Japanese conceptions of how the family should behave.
I can't believe we are having this discussion, in a thread entitled "moe loli spinoff."
notthepenguins
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Now maybe you're not aware, but "But don't you want equal things we shouldn't give special treatment to you" is a boilerplate argument more moderate prejudiced folks tend to pull out when people interested in minority rights try to seek something to rectify the disadvantaged position they're already in. So it really doesn't hold much water for me, especially in a show that's gone out of its way to call Fate Nanoha's "best friend" who's "been like a second mama." It's very carefully danced around saying it outright, even when by rights it should have.
Now, having addressed that, I'd appreciate it if you didn't move your goalposts:
notthepenguins
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(Just saw this, double posting so the alert goes properly)
Because Nanoha ViVid is aimed at families to watch with their kids, and this might chase away that key target demographic?
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Fine, I am willing to concede the point that H-scene was hyperbole on my part. It still doesn't change the basic point I'm making, that is, there really isn't.. a need to go further, or be more explicit.
But does that argument extend into literature? If a work of fiction tries to portray a homosexual family unit as a perfectly normal environment, should that work deliberately draw as much attention as possible to the fact that that such a family unit is homosexual? Does it not detract from the point that said family unit functions as normally as any other "majority" family unit?
The argument that minorities deserve more to rectify previous disadvantage positions is usually brought out in the political realm, in terms of special policies to help minorities - ie: Affirmative action. Does it necessarily apply to fictional works, in every circumstance, even at the potential expense of the point that the fictional work is trying to make?
This question deserves a thread on it's own, so I'd leave it at that. But whether the argument for affirmative action should be applied to Literature, is a similar manner, to say policy, is an interesting topic to consider.
notthepenguins
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There's no need to do so, no. There's almost never a need in terms of what you decide to incorporate into your work. "Need to do" is a far more narrow category than "should do" or "would be nice if you did," and is not the minimum required amount of incentive to do something.
I wouldn't be noting it if it was irrelevant.
This is a strawman.
Showing that non-heteronormative family units exist in the first place is more important than showing that they function 'just like' heteronormative ones. Once a meaningful proportion of non-het families visibly exist in media in the first place, this will become a valid argument. Right now, this argument functions as just somewhat-better-veiled equivalent of saying that gay couples shouldn't "shove your homosexuality down our throats" by walking hand in hand down the street. It is an argument in favor of making non-het family units (who are already nearly invisible) even less visible.
What is the point of buying so much straw, anyway?
notthepenguins
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Well, I watched ViVid 3... and the second Einhart-Vivio fight is slick.
Any concerns I had that ViVid might not have good enough action sequences given its primary focus have now evaporated.
Any concerns I had that ViVid might not have good enough action sequences given its primary focus have now evaporated.
I agree with everything except the last point.
...No, wait. Nanoha just might go ahead and teach her daughter that picking fights to make friends is a perfectly acceptable thing to do, consciously or otherwise.
Initially, my complaint was more "Nanoha and Fate would have told Vivio a very edited version of their shared history, if they told her anything at all". But it occurs to me that while Nanoha would, like a "normal" person, see the need to leave out things like psychotic mothers, child abuse and life-or-death risks, she might not see anything wrong with making it clear that she and Fate started as enemies and came to blows before they were friends.
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Yeah, but it wasn't only her and Fate. It's also how she became friends with Arisa and Suzuka, and then the Wolkenritter, and then Vivio saw the Numbers get befriended...
And the first real moment of mother-daughter bonding they had...