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BungieONI - Essay on the Fishing Folk
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    • ManusDomine said:
    The enemy camp is peculiar to you. It lies on a small, riverside hill, consisting of a number of huts, built of mud and sticks. The pseudo-tents seem to be built in a vague circle around a central fireplace, and one of the huts is larger than the others, otherwise showing no particular differentiation between them. A small pier is built of sticks arrayed into something resembling a broad plank, resting on long, thick poles of wood, speared into the riverbed below. Several rafts are tied to the poles, by way of thick rope, likely made to resist the currents and erosive force of the water. Some place down the river, you see a mysterious wooden structure standing in the water.
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    So pretty conventional, and interesting fisher tribals. Interesting how Fire Defeats-Many calls their home a camp. We know it's actually a village but it is quite cool to see how quickly the word for "village" is falling out of use on the Long Journey. The village's location is important because the river likely floods and that hill it sits on almost certainly lies above the flood line by dint of experience. We also have some simple huts, in a very very very common style. They probably look something like these:




    That pier they have likely floats upwards when the river floods, I believe modern piers will do that in some places. Also, rope! They have rope! Amazing stuff you can do with rope, as shown here, and it also obviously becomes a major component in major workings of physics and engineering later. They probably make it out of plants gathered from the river bank which have their fibers beaten or pulled out and woven together by the women and children and men(when home).

    I'm not sure what the mysterious structure is. Possibly a dam or a river boat? I dunno. Could also be a tower to anchor nets to or an artificial sand bank facsimile.

    ManusDomine said:
    The drums beat, and the black-headed men of the Land of the Gods have taken to half-running; they are led by fearsome Lugalkam with his long spear in hand. You run in a looser formation in front of them, obscuring them totally, turning what would seem like an organized attack from the front into a disarrayed mob of stone-slingers, spear-throwers and hunters; an illusion, but a convincing one. You, yourself lead the hunters, first among them all in a loose formation, bearing a javelin in your throwing hand, and several more in your other.

    As the first, confused heads begin to show themselves outside their huts, they quickly call alarm, in some strange tongue, that sounds neither like that of the black-headed people from the Land of the Gods, or your own. They wield fishing spears, bidents and tridents; instruments of hunting like your own, rather than the dedicated instruments of murder, wielded by the people from the Land of the Gods. They take a formation, not unlike that of your current allies, forming a block consisting of rows and rows of spears, although lacking in the rectangular shields that seems to allow the Godlanders to become like a moving wall.

    For a few moments, there is, nothing but for the occasional shout thrown your way, or in return. There is nothing, but raving and hollering, seeking to intimidate the enemy, to break their morale and make them flee, to make them chaff to be cut down, rather than an opposing force. Time has slowed down, and were you not in control of yourself, the demon sealed in the mask might overtake you and make you scream and rage at them, You can see their faces from here, how pupils dilate, and beads of sweat form on foreheads, how knuckles turn white, gripping spears meant for fishing.
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    Nice, drum signalling. Also, excellent use of misdirection and goes to show how much luck and planning both can go into even raiding. Now a thing about javelins in this age they are maybe stone tipped at best and the shafts are going to maybe be as thick around as your thumb and a warrior like Fire will probably carry somewhere more than five of them in his "off hand".

    *claps hands* So! Fishing pokey things! We all know what a spear is, and in this case it can be as simple as a whittled stick scraped of bark and possibly wrapped in sinew where you grab it most. There are also possibilities of having it be hooked, through some carving, though I don't know if that was commonly used.

    Bident's though are something very specifically for fishing. Their purpose is to pin the fish on the bottom, or catch them on one tine and then have them stab themselves on the others with their thrashing. A common way to make a bident? Take a stick with a Y prong on the end, you know the type, strip the bark and then sharpen the bugger with a stone. Another way is to take a fishing spear and wrap a smaller sharpened stick on the end with sinew which is soaked. As the sinew dries it shrinks if I remember my leatherworking(from my dad) right.

    A bident is also not far off from a primitive fork. A common utensil made of wood is a small carved wooden two pronged fork like a steak skewer for your barbecue. Same use really, cept with a bident it's for stabbing food that's still moving.

    Tridents are the same sort of thing as a bident, but for bigger fish if I recall properly. They can be made by finding a three pronged stick, which will probably be a bigger stick and or tying smaller sharpened sticks with sinew to a singular spear.

    Fire hardening is also a big thing for these. It makes the points harder and dries the wood, making it contract which I think lightens it as the water weight evaporates? Sharp animal bones like Fire's tusk spear can also be done and used. Bone is quite a good material when treated properly.

    Anyway, one thing I find interesting is the lack of nets used in fighting. If they have rope then they can make nets which will be useful if we are ever by a river and know how to make them.

    We also scared the shit out of these poor people. Up till now they might have thought it was simply another raid by the Black Hairs, but then they see that the Black Hairs somehow literally summoned demons who cannot be hit and who's darts strike with terrible accuracy, led by a massive furred demon beast with a terrible roar. At least that's what the river folk would see. One things masks do is make it hard to keep track of numbers if they are all similar. This means the illusion of invincibility can be maintained because the demons just come back if you stab them or brain them with a rock if you do things right.

    That we came at dawn is not helpful, everybody was probably in the middle of breakfast.

    Then we peel off and reveal the Oh Fuck which is Lugalkam. From what I can gather the formation the fishers took was likely adopted from fighting Lugalkam's people over time, and they would usually rebuff raids because of superior numbers(being twice the size of Lugalkam's retinue).

    ManusDomine said:
    The women that lived in the village, seem to have retreated completely, either huddling inside the houses, or taking rafts to flee with children, or some even joining the battle from afar, pelting you with a hail of objects. While their contribution is slight, their participation troubles you, for you know well that it is a breach of the sacred wisdom of the ancestors of the ancestors to lay hand on a woman with violent intent, lest one risk to be devoured by a wolf and have one's soul spat out at the feet of the Lonely Ancestor.
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    This little bit is so intriguing. I have no idea what to make of it. I honestly don't really know how that belief might have come about besides common sense that angry women are scary?

    ManusDomine said:
    A scream of triumph, a roar of success. With a mighty heave, Lugalkam separates head from body, on some man in the middle of a shout, who must have been their leader, and you can see the already falling morale of the fishers break and shatter, like clay pottery dashed against the ground. Now comes the next part, the encircling, the looting, the taking; running at the speed which only hunters can, and bolstered by the demons that are with you, for they taste blood, and they have feasted, you encircle the place, cutting off exits and leading those who did not manage to flee into the center of the settlement. Those who managed to flee are pursued by younger hunters, either with the intent to capture, or to slay, for there is not much glory in the slaying of those who flee, but a hunt is a hunt.
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    Of major note, this battle was glorious for our people and it seems Lugalkam's. How we did this will influence how we see what is glorious and what is not.

    ManusDomine said:
    Lugalkam goes to search within the buildings, and returns a few moments later, followed by a woman of descent reminiscent of his own, although her eyes are more slanted, and her clothing is of better quality, stained as it is. She wears a lavender gown, covering her left arm and hanging loosely down her body, but leaving her right arm, neck and shoulders free. Her hair is done up with elaborate jewelry, although it has been ruffled significantly. She wears bracelets around her wrists, and sandals on her feet, like the other people of the Land of the Gods. Realizing that this is the first woman from the Land of the Gods that you meet, you introduce yourself with a greeting that Lugalkam has taught you, internally amused greatly with yourself over her shocked look at your knowledge of their tongue.
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    Noble breeding, interesting. Also good to see the sense of humor. It's a good one to have, for it encourages cleverness.

    So what we can see from this particular exchange is that these women priests are of some high authority in Lugalkam's culture. Which makes sense since they are emissaries of the gods, the particular god the woman supports obviously being determined by the city she is born in or raised in and serves under. Her god sounds almost biblical, like Moloch. Also very interesting take on property and fealty and devotion. She is not her own woman, she is Merthoch's. He owns her loyalty, oath, personage and spirit. The Abyssal Seawater sounds like some kind of Flood Myth, in which case these people have a loooooooong oral memory. For some perspective, we don't really remember it.

    The leader of soldiers marrying a priestess is not something I've ever seen before, and speaks evidently of Lugalkam's motivation here. We were helping him rescue his sweetheart. I'm not sure what this particular practice evolved from, I would guess some ancient raiding practices of women taking mixing with woman priests. Potential indication of a military coup at some point? *shrug* Dunno. I think the role it stands now is to give the warrior men a link to the gods so that they feel connected to the divine and that their spiritual needs are met, so that they believe that their families are receiving proper blessings so they don't die. More materialistically it means they also have access to a lever of their societies probable forum which means they feel like if there is a problem, their complaints can be heard by whispering to their wives who whisper to their superiors who whisper to whoever runs the cities.


    ManusDomine said:
    [ ] Life - There are many women, who would surely make good wives for the hunters who have none, and there are children still, who can become Kin to Air too, by partaking of your blood, as you partake of theirs.

    [ ] Chains - The men may be taken with you, and set to work for you, making them servants and slaves. Lugalkam has explained to you, how a woman in the Land of the Gods, may become property, so could men and women not become the same to the Kin to Air?

    [ ] Land - You will take this place, turning it into a place of the Kin to Air; huts, river, pier and rafts will all become yours, and you will own it as your own. You may use the huts, and all the things within them, for your own.

    [ ] Riches - Some of the men and women bear shiny necklaces, gold-hemmed shirts and rings, and you have seen other objects of elegant materials, glitter and shimmer within the huts. You will take these, and make them the property of the Kin to Air, showing your victory.

    [ ] Sacrifice - The wolf is the destroyer of all the works of man, but today, you have become wolves and harried and slain many men. Thus, you slay the defeated foe and lay them together, in an isolated place, and send them thusly to the Lonely Ancestor, as thanks for your great victory.
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    Right so there's a bit to talk about here.

    Life is very normal for this time and these societies. Every group of people here is pretty solid for doing this sort of thing except possibly the Kin's. And well, as a side effect? You might have women throwing themselves at the men who conquered their people so they have a family structure of some kind so they can live. Because an iron clad rule in this time is that people without family structures die horrible horrible deaths of deprivation. Also here, family is super important. By taking their blood we make them Kin. They have the privleges of the Kin, our traditions and practices apply to them. Yes their life will be different and harder, but in large part they will go on. I doubt Lugalkam will have much issue with us taking this.

    This one is pretty huge, since it basically makes them Family. With a big fat capital F.

    ManusDomine said:
    He says that he only wants to retrieve the stolen goods, and make off with the priestess before it is discovered that she is gone, for if that were to happen, she could be declared "huarthum", which you don't understand, even after several explanations; how could a woman be like a rock or a stick or a hut?
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    So Life is probably fine. Also for Life? It means Fire Defeats-Many gets a wife, because I don't think he has one right now. Ick I know.

    Chains is interesting, though I don't think we have the right society yet to have proper slaves who are also nomads. The Arabs did stuff like that, but they generally had defined territories and moved in predictable patterns while we are moving in a Long Journey. I am also not sure if it will offend Lugalkam. I don't think it mixes well with Life for what should be obvious reasons.

    Land is not something I am interested in. And the simple reason for that is that Land is something the Kin is letting go of and I want that transition to complete. More practically, this is not the Land For Us. It is still suffering under The Hand of Drought. Just look at how our supplies lasted as we traveled through it. No, while the river is nice it is too close to the valley and might turn on the tribe as well as the drought continues. Better to continue on.

    Riches, I would like to take, but I think they actually belong to Lugalkam based on that quote I had about stolen goods so I think it better to leave those to him. Best not to bug him about those I think.

    That leaves Sacrifice. I'm not entirely sure what is the enemy here. I'm also not sure at all how Lugalkam will react to us killing the enemy and laying them out for the scavengers ritualistically(I.e human sacrifice of a kind). I don't think it's the women and children since it isn't mutually exclusive with Life. It also sets a protocol of deference and thanks for great battles, a form of humility and thanks for the great victory. Could also evolve into an attempt to not make the Lonely Ancestor lonely? Push him towards a death god type deal?

    Not sure.

    Out of them all... uh

    [X] Life - There are many women, who would surely make good wives for the hunters who have none, and there are children still, who can become Kin to Air too, by partaking of your blood, as you partake of theirs.

    This one for sure.

    I'm tempted to request Lugalkam speak of us so that we are known to his blood and the blood of his compatriots, so that respect and acclaim may be shared between them and the Kin.

    E: Right, after thinking of stuff I decided to just write something in. Let's make ourselves legends.

    [X] Speak of Us - Lugalkam fought well and earned your respect. You would request he and his compatriots speak of you in great detail so that their blood can remember you in the far future should your Journeys cross again.
    Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jul 17, 2018 at 2:47 PM, finished with 277 posts and 15 votes.
    • [X] Life - There are many women, who would surely make good wives for the hunters who have none, and there are children still, who can become Kin to Air too, by partaking of your blood, as you partake of theirs.
      [X] Riches - Some of the men and women bear shiny necklaces, gold-hemmed shirts and rings, and you have seen other objects of elegant materials, glitter and shimmer within the huts. You will take these, and make them the property of the Kin to Air, showing your victory.
      [X] Sacrifice - The wolf is the destroyer of all the works of man, but today, you have become wolves and harried and slain many men. Thus, you slay the defeated foe and lay them together, in an isolated place, and send them thusly to the Lonely Ancestor, as thanks for your great victory.
      [X] Chains - The men may be taken with you, and set to work for you, making them servants and slaves. Lugalkam has explained to you, how a woman in the Land of the Gods, may become property, so could men and women not become the same to the Kin to Air?
      [X] Land - You will take this place, turning it into a place of the Kin to Air; huts, river, pier and rafts will all become yours, and you will own it as your own. You may use the huts, and all the things within them, for your own.
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    Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jul 17, 2018 at 3:10 PM, finished with 279 posts and 15 votes.
    • [X] Life - There are many women, who would surely make good wives for the hunters who have none, and there are children still, who can become Kin to Air too, by partaking of your blood, as you partake of theirs.
      [X] Riches - Some of the men and women bear shiny necklaces, gold-hemmed shirts and rings, and you have seen other objects of elegant materials, glitter and shimmer within the huts. You will take these, and make them the property of the Kin to Air, showing your victory.
      [X] Speak of Us - Lugalkam fought well and earned your respect. You would request he and his compatriots speak of you in great detail so that their blood can remember you in the far future should your Journeys cross again.
      [X] Sacrifice - The wolf is the destroyer of all the works of man, but today, you have become wolves and harried and slain many men. Thus, you slay the defeated foe and lay them together, in an isolated place, and send them thusly to the Lonely Ancestor, as thanks for your great victory.
      [X] Chains - The men may be taken with you, and set to work for you, making them servants and slaves. Lugalkam has explained to you, how a woman in the Land of the Gods, may become property, so could men and women not become the same to the Kin to Air?
      [X] Land - You will take this place, turning it into a place of the Kin to Air; huts, river, pier and rafts will all become yours, and you will own it as your own. You may use the huts, and all the things within them, for your own.
      [X] Life
      [X] Land
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    • BungieONI - Essay on Religion
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    • Sivantic said:
    Thinking on it a bit further, I am actually a bit hesitant on taking Life. We chose matriarchy as our ruling and this may reduce that.

    [X] Riches - Some of the men and women bear shiny necklaces, gold-hemmed shirts and rings, and you have seen other objects of elegant materials, glitter and shimmer within the huts. You will take these, and make them the property of the Kin to Air, showing your victory.

    [X] Speak of Us - Lugalkam fought well and earned your respect. You would request he and his compatriots speak of you in great detail so that their blood can remember you in the far future should your Journeys cross again.
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    *wiggles hand*

    If we were taking them as property like the men in Chains, then we'd be pushing against matriarchy for sure. In this case it is making them family, which is basically everything in our society. The foreign women themselves may have slightly lesser standing in themselves but their children, already living, and children who come later would very likely have completely equal since they really are Kin to Air just like Fire Defeats-Many is. Those children would be fully capable of becoming part of the councils if they are women.

    Also as an aside, the knowledge of the spirits and life-lore that the foreign women have will also be listened to, examined, debated on and integrated into ours.

    And now here I go into something else entirely!

    It's interesting when you begin to consider the varieties of societal power, the varieties of personal power and familial power, and martial power. All different forms of it and each with their own varieties. Like described in the informational tabs on our civ the elderly matrons hold power in our civ by literal case of them raising most of the people in it at any given time. Most folks are a bit unwilling to gainsay their parents, and the same applies to Fire Defeats-Many and the other warriors. Their moms are on the council most likely, or their grandmothers.

    Life experience is also a massive marker of import because it means you've seen super important shit like what plants are dangerous, what marks what for the weather and where the tribe has gone before and found good hunting. Women in the Kin to Air are... sort of invested with a sense of import and respect. See this quote here:

    ManusDomine said:
    While their contribution is slight, their participation troubles you, for you know well that it is a breach of the sacred wisdom of the ancestors of the ancestors to lay hand on a woman with violent intent, lest one risk to be devoured by a wolf and have one's soul spat out at the feet of the Lonely Ancestor.
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    As also mentioned in the same update their... the reason they are listened to in our society is that they are the repositories of wisdom and authority. That's the bigger thing. People have the power of choice and can make their own decisions but the council provides counsel and advice. They also raise the small children by immersing them in stories and lore of the tribe shaping the general sort of responses a person will have when faced with a situation. If that situation is similar to one of the stories they know, they will likely default to a similar response as was had in that story or metaphor.

    One of these responses is the respect of wisdom and age for the reasons I have mentioned before. If you have a question about life, the mothers and grandmothers can likely answer it. This is huge, in any time. Especially when you are growing up and trying to figure out what the world is about. They are not the repository of all skills however, but cultural skills, behavioral skills and interaction are all under their purview and what I mean by "life".

    And then outside of matters of counsel, you have another role for with the women. That of Intercession. As has been shown in every society we have interacted with in more than stabbing, there is a class of people who are Intercessors. They who place themselves, or are placed, between the mortal personage and the spiritual realm, realm of the strange unknown. Observe as the first piece of evidence: Air herself and the reading of the signs in the valley before the Great Journey started. In the minds of the Kin Before They Were Kin Air and her council were communing with strange knowledge and the signs, interpreting them, and then Air tells them what they must do in her role as the bridge between one realm of being and another.

    Another huge piece of this is the elder matrons interacting with the Spirit Stones. That is a case of them and Air herself, interceding and placing themselves between the tribe and the depredations of any demons who lived in the stones in the minds of the tribe. Actions of cleansing, protection and negotiation with the spirit realm are all part of this concept. The concept of Intercession is one where the people who are Intercessors appease or drive away the frightening and powerful things in the realm of the strange unknown. This is especially apparent in very old stories about spirits and divinities where they needed to be appeased instead of entreated or other states. Their default states were terrifying and angry or otherwise requiring of some method of respect(as with our ancestors of ancestors, who smite you if you behave counter to their teachings).

    A very very big indicator is the sort of thinking in our Godlander folks over there. Their gods must be appeased and are generally very rude boy's and girls. And this thinking won't change for quite some time. I'm not sure of what civilizational factors will start having you transition away from this, but getting post Bronze Age is definitely a big part of it. Benevolent divinity is not a common thing before then, if at all from what I can recall.

    As a fun little aside, after talking with Manus some and having him point me to Grimm's Law and the associated sound shifts I come to find out two important things. One, Merthoch is Marduk. Patron god of Babylon, or in this case Pepilun. So we are somewhere north of the Euphrates valley. This river we walk along is likely leading to it and the valley we hail from was likely a smaller pocket valley north of the main one. Based on the use of copper and such I would also contend that we are somewhere near the Jemdet Nasr period of 3100 to 2900 BC. The latest we could be is the 5.9 kiloyear event and the end of the Ubaid period I think.

    Our friends here are Akkadians who are the ancestors to the Babylonians. I was rather surprised when I figured this out. Based on looking at things, I think we are headed for whatever equivalent to the Black Sea exists in this world.

    *puffs out a breath* Done now.
    Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jul 19, 2018 at 3:15 PM, finished with 302 posts and 22 votes.
    • [X] Life - There are many women, who would surely make good wives for the hunters who have none, and there are children still, who can become Kin to Air too, by partaking of your blood, as you partake of theirs.
      [X] Riches - Some of the men and women bear shiny necklaces, gold-hemmed shirts and rings, and you have seen other objects of elegant materials, glitter and shimmer within the huts. You will take these, and make them the property of the Kin to Air, showing your victory.
      [X] Speak of Us - Lugalkam fought well and earned your respect. You would request he and his compatriots speak of you in great detail so that their blood can remember you in the far future should your Journeys cross again.
      [X] Land - You will take this place, turning it into a place of the Kin to Air; huts, river, pier and rafts will all become yours, and you will own it as your own. You may use the huts, and all the things within them, for your own.
      [X] Sacrifice - The wolf is the destroyer of all the works of man, but today, you have become wolves and harried and slain many men. Thus, you slay the defeated foe and lay them together, in an isolated place, and send them thusly to the Lonely Ancestor, as thanks for your great victory.
      [X] Chains - The men may be taken with you, and set to work for you, making them servants and slaves. Lugalkam has explained to you, how a woman in the Land of the Gods, may become property, so could men and women not become the same to the Kin to Air?
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    Spear: Tales of Bone and Linen
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    • Tales of Bone and Linen​

    The fire crackles and pops in a place with no name, red wolves and yellow foxes chasing down orange coloured prey-things.

    It is a time of making merry, of the telling of tales and the sharing of wisdom. An old woman clad in white linen who speaks in a voice smokey from incense and the weight of a long life lived.

    "You have all heard the tale of Air, beloved by many for quick witted sense and eyes clear enough to see the path ahead. But," she holds forth a bony finger to silence the crowd of youths, effortlessly cutting off a particularly boisterous girl-child who had opened her mouth in complaint. "have you heard of her secret child, born in the depths below to no father save darkness and rot?"

    The litany of shaken heads draws a chuckle, just long enough to get them impatient again.

    "Well, it goes much like this."

    °^°​

    There is no such thing as life, in the dusty, musty depths of the World Below. Worms feast as only they can on the leavings of the living, last gifts and tethers of remembrance for the dead. It is no place to grow, and certainly not a place where life may be begotten.

    Air, relishing such challenges, saw the silence of gnawing worms as reason enough to bring forth another voice to speak to.

    So, she sat down and thought deeply, for many of the things needed for a child were not present. There was no water to be drunk or food to be eaten, no fire to be had for warmth, not even a male to lay with. She certainly would not choose one of the spirits trapped here, too faded and bitter they were, and any child of such a union would be much the same.

    In her youth, her mother had taught her how to make a crude doll from twigs, a thing she had cherished. But, there were no trees to be found, no ochre to daub in place of eyes and mouth, nor even fur to take the place of hair.

    Walking the length and breadth of the World Below, for the dead have much time and little purpose, Air found not a thing suitable that had not come from the World Above. Only the bones of kinsmen and kinswoman long gone, pale and white and long, and the rotting clothing of the recently passed.

    Nodding firmly thrice, Air calls it a task suitable for her and sets out to make herself a companion in this place of grasping shadows and dry, lifeless earth.

    In place of dry but flexible wood, she uses rigid and carefully chosen bone. She is saddened greatly at the amount of children's bones she finds, and firmly resolves herself to her task with the same purpose that had gripped her in life's warm embrace.

    On greying stone she sets out pale piece after pale piece, starting with the largest and most vital and ending with the delicate bones found in fingers. On her half finished work she looks, and finds there is nothing to bind them together, nothing to simply stop the simplest motion throwing everything askew.

    Thinking on this deeply, she binds the bones to each other using torn strips of funerary coverings, before finally covering it all in what clothing she could find.

    A moon passes, Air's keen eyes looking for whatever could be missing, why the child of linen and bone on greying stone has yet to move, has yet to show life, when the thought strikes her as a bolt of skyfire does the venerable earth.

    A Name.

    What is a man without a name to call his own, what is a woman without a name to call her own? What are the deeds of their forefathers and their ancestors?

    In a voice soft and sibilant, a tale is told in a world that does not acknowledge sound. It is a tale of life uprooted, of hardship having come and being faced with tragic choices, of a people who wander.

    All the while wordlessly caressing the the bone child as a mother would.

    The Kin of Air are all her children, and what kind of mother would she be to deprive a child of knowledge of their siblings?

    A name passes her still painted lips from a trial long ago, as soft as linen and as brittle as sun-bleached bone.

    Pale-As-Air, with a great inhalation of their namesake sufficient to be felt from the World Above, took their first breath.

    And on their fleshless tongue? A question of knowledge, of tales of Kin unmet and a great loving cry for its mother.
     
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    • BungieONI - Essay on Diplomacy
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    • Beh, I shouldn't be awake right now, but whatever I had me a thought.


    So, as Diplomacy has been sort of a theme for the past three updates since we met Lugalkam I was struck by the question of "Well, how does diplomacy work when it's tribals?" It is a pretty substantial question, though not exactly crucial to our means of survival right at the moment.


    A big thing to start with, which ties into my previous thing on legislation and the lack of Law context, is the fluid nature of Kin Diplomacy. To give context to what I mean, Law and legislation and legislative bodies can regularize both the protocol and formal requirements of diplomacy and they can regularize the effects of diplomacy and have it hold in treaty and contracts beyond the lifetimes of the negotiators. Law, and the other advanced social concepts that tend to appear along side it(for different reasons, and often not spawned from law itself) can make it so that societies elevate diplomacy beyond the level of an interpersonal relationship and into a contract which is binding under whatever agreed upon terms there are.

    For the Kin however, they lack Law and legislation and also most advanced social structures beyond the interpersonal. What this means obviously is that in the Kin themselves rely on interpersonal skills taught by their parents and the honored grandmothers and extend this out to their diplomacy. You can see it in the interactions between Fire Defeats-Many and Lugalkam. Their agreement is not between the Kin and the Godlanders, it's between Lugalkam and Fire Defeats-Many. Lugalkam's people have the theoretical social basis to understand more complicated diplomatic overtures but in this context there really isn't any point.

    It's also not even really a formal agreement at all, given that Fire did not exchange an item with Lugalkam when they talked, for it to be held as collateral, as described in their practices. In fact from what I can tell those sorts of formal binding agreements are purely Kin to Kin associations, and it hasn't occurred to them yet for such things to apply to deals between other people outside the Kin. This goes beyond diplomacy as well, into the nature of binding trade agreements, which are similar enough that there is a lot of overlap. In the sense that the trade agreements are not going to be contracts per se and will be purely personal constructs between two people based on personal connection.

    Now interestingly, for all tribals on or near the Kin's level of development this sort of diplomacy holds true both nomadic and semi-nomadic/settled. They may approach first contact, and extended diplomacy, in different ways based on cultural context but the bed rock of it will be interpersonal relations between the important people who meet each other as those people representing themselves because there isn't exactly a sense of "The state/kingdom/overarching social structure".

    What are the consequences of this? Well it leads into the "Diplomancing Nomads is Hard" concept common to history, because you have no wider connection or social structure to address and get to everyone in a particular region, and that each particular tribe you basically have to make friends with on your own merits as a person and not a representative of something larger. They may respect that something larger as a force to consider, but they'll listen to your negotiations because of the charisma of the negotiator and their ability to sell their shinnies. So it leads to the dilemma where you have to do this with every tribe in a region and some of them will hate each other's guts in feuds spanning literally generations over shit we would consider weird. (Go look up the Basus War, I am not kidding)

    That's for more complex folk interacting with Kin like nomads and nomads in general, as well as settled but un-advanced tribal peoples. For the Kin interacting with other tribes close to their level it leads to a couple of things. First is that every relationship will be between people, and families instead of Tribes. For the most part, with stuff only escalating to the Tribes getting involved when stuff goes sideways. If people don't like each other, then that's a big limiter and it is not one we can really effect at all. This limits the direct number of relations the Kin can actually sustain.

    However, in a different part of this, you can actually have webs of relationships and inter-tribal diplomacy which span huuuuge areas of land. (again look at the Basus war) No one person or tribe will be personally connected to everyone else, but you can have the formation of tribal blocs based on interpersonal connection. Which in turn means that for certain things you can get masses of tribes coming together over something.

    Now of course a lot of this interpersonal diplomatic stuff is predicated on family blood ties. That's a thing which will be common for most people, since humans are still at the point where tribalism and its associated common thoughts(usually that trust worthiness is an extension of blood relation, which tended to end up being true) are predominate. It actually will even apply to one degree or another, though likely be executed in different ways for truly settled non-tribals like the Godlanders. This means that a lot of ties between tribes which are more than a fleeting "How do ya do?" are bound using familial marriage ties, though depending on the culture they may not be exactly common. Often it may be that marriage will be between members of different families in the same clan, or between members of different clans, and then sometimes between members of different tribes.

    It really kinda depends. Then there's things like blood brother traditions and blood oaths, which can facilitate the same role without marriage becoming involved. And then all the other traditions and rituals I don't know about.

    What this means for us as a player base is that we will essentially have to hold diplomacy on a case by case basis. And that playing based on the idea of "Do I like this person, and how bad can they hurt." is actually totally viable and in character, and probably exceptionally reasonable when dealing with other tribes since they will be doing something similar. The barriers we'll have to overcome are different definitions on what is prestigious and also a variety of different social practices.

    A big part of it that intercession in conflict will often come down to arbitration by the spirits and those in our societies that truck with the spirits. As well as deeper relationships and friendships will need to be consecrated beneath their domains.

    I think that's it for now... *rummages around*

    Yeah, I'm done on this topic for now.
     
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    BungieONI - Art of the Kin Scrolls
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    • Apologies for the double post but I got hit with a inspiration.


    "Kin Scrolls I"

    The beginning of a pictorial chronicle of the Kin to Air's first Great Journey.
    Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jul 23, 2018 at 3:26 PM, finished with 310 posts and 25 votes.
    • [X] Life - There are many women, who would surely make good wives for the hunters who have none, and there are children still, who can become Kin to Air too, by partaking of your blood, as you partake of theirs.
      [X] Riches - Some of the men and women bear shiny necklaces, gold-hemmed shirts and rings, and you have seen other objects of elegant materials, glitter and shimmer within the huts. You will take these, and make them the property of the Kin to Air, showing your victory.
      [X] Speak of Us - Lugalkam fought well and earned your respect. You would request he and his compatriots speak of you in great detail so that their blood can remember you in the far future should your Journeys cross again.
      [X] Sacrifice - The wolf is the destroyer of all the works of man, but today, you have become wolves and harried and slain many men. Thus, you slay the defeated foe and lay them together, in an isolated place, and send them thusly to the Lonely Ancestor, as thanks for your great victory.
      [X] Chains - The men may be taken with you, and set to work for you, making them servants and slaves. Lugalkam has explained to you, how a woman in the Land of the Gods, may become property, so could men and women not become the same to the Kin to Air?
      [X] Land - You will take this place, turning it into a place of the Kin to Air; huts, river, pier and rafts will all become yours, and you will own it as your own. You may use the huts, and all the things within them, for your own.
      [X] Life
      [X] Land
    Click to expand...
     
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    Look Upon My Works - Partitioning
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    • Author's Note: Warning, this gets pretty grim some places, so if you aren't for reading about a village getting burned to the ground, I would not recommend reading.

    [X] - Life
    [X] - Speak of Us

    Partitioning

    In the middle of the camp of the fishing folk, they huddle; at the mercy of the Kin to Air, who wrestled with demons in the underworld, and the black-headed men of the Land of the Gods, they huddle. Women, children, men; old and young, all subdued by the demons that possessed you in battle, and made each of you as tenfold warriors of theirs. They whisper among each other, whispering in a strange, guttural tongue of harsh words and slithering sentences, like the scaled fish they take from the water and eat; like the strange spirits of the river, they no doubt worship.

    Lugalkam looks at you expectantly, waiting for you to make your choice. You ask him to stand back and let you confer, to which he agrees, and you bring the hunters together. You ask of them, their desires, but you can already see the gazes that the young hunters, faces still flushed with blood, cast towards the women of the fishing folk, and you yourself, are in need of a wife. You ask of them, if they desire anything more, but must quickly calm them when they speak of the golden jewelry, wishing to save that for Lugalkam, whose eyes you have seen glitter at least as much as the gold, when they fall upon it.
    Brilliance strikes you, and you know what to ask for, smiling as you call off the conference and return with your host, to Lugalkam and Ninthutha, and the fishing folk.

    "I ask firstly, of you, Lugalkam of the black-headed people, who come from the Land of the Gods, that I be given the unmarried women and the children of the fishing folk, and that all who are married be given the same fate as their husbands, as to not to separate them."

    To this request, Lugalkam seems to acquiesce easily, smiling happily that you make such a light request, and motions to his men to stand ready, as he shouts in the language of the fishing folk, to separate the married from the unmarried, lifting his bloody blade so it glints evilly in the dying sunlight of the evening. Terrified, they separate from each other, those who will not move, being moved by the soldiers with crude gestures and rough pulling. You bid Lugalkam speak, and he commands, once again in their strange tongue, and the mass of unmarried women, and children move, shuffling and clustered together, towards you.

    Then you speak to Lugalkam again, and give your second request; your stroke of genius, which will secure greatness for the Kin.

    "Secondly, I ask of you, Lugalkam of the black-headed people, who has become to me like a brother, through battle, that you and your men speak of us, and speak of our greatness, and say, "The Kin to Air, who are all kin to the woman who went into the land of dry dust and worms, and wrestled with the demons within, are great in the eyes of the spirits, and our gods", and that you bring this message with you wherever you go."

    At this, Lugalkam laughs joyfully; a cheery laughter, not in mockery or jest, but in friendship forged, speaking up heartily.

    "As you wish, Izidabduesh, of the Kin to Air, who says to me "you have become to me like a brother, through battle", I shall spread far your story, and say to them, "this man was born of Arashgichar, who is queen of the underworld and sister to the Queen of Heaven", and I shall tell them of your great deeds."

    This, you find a most pleasing agreement.

    Then, it is Ninthuta, property to the god Merthoch, who speaks up. In a harsh voice, she bids Lugalkam have the men and married women brought back, guarded by the soldiers, so they can be made to work. She also then bids him set the buildings aflame, to terrify others of their kind into fearing the retribution of the Land of the Gods, and seek other raiding targets. To these wishes, Lugalkam agrees, and he bids his soldiers take the remaining and lead them from the place, to stand afar under guard.
    Also to this, Lugalkam agrees, giving the command and sending a group of men to make torches and bring forth fire.

    Finally, it is Lugalkam's time to make his own claim, and he takes nothing but the gold and jewelry; personally looking through every hut and house for the tiniest piece that glimmers, bringing back necklaces with amber inlays and elaborate statuettes. Signs from trade afar and signs of wealth; both things that are now Lugalkam's.

    Then, he calls forth again, the men who have returned bearing long sticks and timber. They arrange the timber and surround it with large stones, taken from the banks of the river. His men impale the long sticks they held, which you realize are the broken spears of the fishing folk, into the ground, while Lugalkam then takes a small stick and begins spinning it quickly between his hands, as he holds it to the collection of unburning timber. Around him, the three men he called forth begin stomping their feet in the earth, singing a song which you understand not, despite your partial understanding of their language.

    "Ana Merthoche imen! Elenu thiemethoa imen!"

    They stomp their feet, they shout their cry to the heavens, and the warriors keeping the captives, bid the ones they have taken kneel and lay hands upon their shoulders, forcing them down.

    "Urumerthoch! Elenu keskel imen! Emkereene panazue imenak!"

    In the dying, golden glow of the sun, dark clouds have begun to gather on the sky, slowly blotting out the last, feeble rays of light. The warriors take from the captives, an old man, bringing him forward, towards the great camp, held by his arms, by two warriors, as Ninthutha's eyes have rotated, so her visage is spots of white, full of tiny, red veins. From her mouth come words that sound nothing like what the warriors now holler and scream, if they are word, they are words of Merthoch.

    In Lugalkam's hands, fire has begun as one would expect, and the smoke it gives off is caught in the heavy winds, dancing in a quick and murderous dance, while the three warriors have picked up their sticks, bashing them towards each other, roaring like beasts while they run around in circles. In the smoke and flame, the demons within your masks come alive, snarling and biting in the well-carved wood.

    "Merthoch! Arashgichar imene ninzu! Arashgichar imene shusum tumuzuene!"

    The light and heat of the fire can be felt even where you stand, the warriors have set their sticks alight. Only one holds the old man now, the other has digged a hole, in which they force him to kneel before filling it with earth again, so only his head pokes above the earth. Ninthutha has spread her arms, screaming words unknown to man, shaking violently in the light of the flame.

    "Merthoch!" The warriors and Lugalkam scream in unison, shouting to the heavens as Ninthutha collapses, as if her spirit had journeyed away from her vessel, while the warriors run to the village, setting alight every building they come nearby. In the reddish-orange sunset gleam of the burning village, you can yourself shiver, despite the heat; perhaps the warriors of the Land of the Gods are not vultures as they say they are.

    In the awful gleam, the fiery colours cast their eyes a terrible gold, and Lugalkam's snarl resembles a toothy maw; imagery that reminds you all too well, of a wolf ready to pounce on weakened prey. Soon, the fire is over, and the village has been reduced to nothing but ash, skeletal timber and a single old man's head sticking up from the earthen ground, long since choked to death in the ash.

    You go each to your own, finding places to camp and sleep, and when the morning comes, you part your ways, Lugalkam's soldiers having long since left in the night, only seen by the few you had awake to guard the women and children. The morning sun colours the sky a pale grey, a light blanket of clouds drifting across the dullish blue at snail-pace speed, while hunters gather their spears and get ready for movement, and both captives and younger hunters look with horror at the place that used to be their home.

    You yourself, are unsure what you feel about the black-headed people have done, while you do not know these people, it is not hard for you to see for your inner eye, one of the honoured grandmothers, or - Wolven Dream devour you for the thought - most honoured elder Air, themselves interred in the earth, choking on ashes as your people are dragged away and all you know to be, burns in front of your eyes, if you yourself do not lie in a shallow grave with only a metal-tipped spear as your corpse's adornments.
    Regardless, you must move onwards.

    What Will You Do On Your Journey Back?
    You have claim on at two choices.

    [ ] Language - You will attempt to learn the language of your captives, by means of interaction with them, naming things in your language, and making them do the same in theirs. You will also attempt to teach them your own language, thus ensuring that they can speak, and know what to say when they come to the rest of the Kin to Air.

    [ ] Food - You will attempt to gather food and forage while you travel, ensuring that you have more than just what you need to complete the journey. Thus, the Kin to Air will be able to walk and travel for longer, as will surely be necessary many times during the Great Journey towards the place seen in the fire.

    [ ] Exploration - You will attempt to learn more of this strange land by the river, which you have come to, by sending out hunters short of days to return with news of what they see, and sending out hunters long of days to experience personally what it is, and give their verdict on the nature of all that they find.

    [ ] Joy - You will attempt to bring good cheer over the hunters, ensuring that they are in good mood when they return. Both the captives and the hunters you bring, should both be cheerful, so that they best as possible can get along, and meet the rest of the Kin to Air with smiles rather than surly faces.

    The Hunters of the Kin to Air

    Stressed Morale

    Panoply of spears, slings and stones, completely unarmoured. Protected by demon-masks.

    Lead by Fire Defeats-Many, armed with several javelins and a fine tusk-tipped long spear. Protected by the blessings of a demon-mask.

    Thirty warriors and around eighty captives.
     
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    • BungieONI - Essay on Trust and Giving
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    • There was a... lot to unpack in this update, though I could mostly sum it up as "Dang ancient world, that's pretty brutal". Anyway to get in more detail.

    ManusDomine said:
    In the middle of the camp of the fishing folk, they huddle; at the mercy of the Kin to Air, who wrestled with demons in the underworld, and the black-headed men of the Land of the Gods, they huddle. Women, children, men; old and young, all subdued by the demons that possessed you in battle, and made each of you as tenfold warriors of theirs. They whisper among each other, whispering in a strange, guttural tongue of harsh words and slithering sentences, like the scaled fish they take from the water and eat; like the strange spirits of the river, they no doubt worship.
    Click to expand...
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    So interesting thing to note first off is the systemic change our dear Doll is implementing by writing the updates in a more mythic style. I dig it, it works well to convey the right flavor of imagery for these events. An interesting detail here is Fire Defeats-Many's thought's on the fish folk's speech. There is indication here that he doesn't exactly consider them demons or spirits in humanlike skin, not exactly, which is a bit atypical. They are obviously strange to him though. Perhaps it is mitigated by the fact he is essentially adopting them.

    You can also see here an interesting interpretation of the honored grandmother's tale of Air's trip into the underworld. Filtered through a lens which gives honor to her in the mind of a physically active and aggressive man, which in this case is painting her as responding like he would.

    ManusDomine said:
    Lugalkam looks at you expectantly, waiting for you to make your choice. You ask him to stand back and let you confer, to which he agrees, and you bring the hunters together. You ask of them, their desires, but you can already see the gazes that the young hunters, faces still flushed with blood, cast towards the women of the fishing folk, and you yourself, are in need of a wife. You ask of them, if they desire anything more, but must quickly calm them when they speak of the golden jewelry, wishing to save that for Lugalkam, whose eyes you have seen glitter at least as much as the gold, when they fall upon it.
    Brilliance strikes you, and you know what to ask for, smiling as you call off the conference and return with your host, to Lugalkam and Ninthutha, and the fishing folk.

    "I ask firstly, of you, Lugalkam of the black-headed people, who come from the Land of the Gods, that I be given the unmarried women and the children of the fishing folk, and that all who are married be given the same fate as their husbands, as to not to separate them."

    To this request, Lugalkam seems to acquiesce easily, smiling happily that you make such a light request,
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    Fire will be getting a wife out of this, probably the most beautiful of the lot. As the obligatory note by now, this sort of wife taking is really really common in the ancient world as it is essentially the expected action. Seen here it is taken well and not taken poorly. Though here you also see the respect for women Fire has by explicitly saying that the married women should go with their husbands.

    We also see that Lugalkam is multi lingual, likely as a combination of regular conflict and exchange of gifts and trade between Pepilun and the nearest river folk villages in good times. I wonder if the partitioning of classes between warriors and merchants has happened in Pepilun yet.

    ManusDomine said:
    Then you speak to Lugalkam again, and give your second request; your stroke of genius, which will secure greatness for the Kin.

    "Secondly, I ask of you, Lugalkam of the black-headed people, who has become to me like a brother, through battle, that you and your men speak of us, and speak of our greatness, and say, "The Kin to Air, who are all kin to the woman who went into the land of dry dust and worms, and wrestled with the demons within, are great in the eyes of the spirits, and our gods", and that you bring this message with you wherever you go."

    At this, Lugalkam laughs joyfully; a cheery laughter, not in mockery or jest, but in friendship forged, speaking up heartily.

    "As you wish, Izidabduesh, of the Kin to Air, who says to me "you have become to me like a brother, through battle", I shall spread far your story, and say to them, "this man was born of Arashgichar, who is queen of the underworld and sister to the Queen of Heaven", and I shall tell them of your great deeds."

    This, you find a most pleasing agreement.
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    It's a curious and terrifying scene here for the fisher folk, to watch their enemies in the Godlanders bargain with masked demons. Probably comes off as him appeasing them for their services or something similar and the tongue he speaks must sound rather ghastly to them. Really big thing here though is that Arashgichar is, according to the vocal shifts laid out in Grimm's Law, Ereshkigal. She is the Queen of the Great Earth and the underworld, Kur in the Summerian mythos. Lugalkam was basically saying that Fire Defeats-Many was also descended from a divinity like Lugalkam claims to be, which seems to be a big marker of respect in his culture. The Queen of Heaven he refers to is Inanna most likely, or the deity concept that becomes her, as Ereshkigal is her older sister.

    These were pretty inoffensive things to ask for, and I expect our legend and the embellished versions of it to extend far into the future.

    ManusDomine said:
    Then, it is Ninthuta, property to the god Merthoch, who speaks up. In a harsh voice, she bids Lugalkam have the men and married women brought back, guarded by the soldiers, so they can be made to work. She also then bids him set the buildings aflame, to terrify others of their kind into fearing the retribution of the Land of the Gods, and seek other raiding targets. To these wishes, Lugalkam agrees, and he bids his soldiers take the remaining and lead them from the place, to stand afar under guard.
    Also to this, Lugalkam agrees, giving the command and sending a group of men to make torches and bring forth fire.

    Finally, it is Lugalkam's time to make his own claim, and he takes nothing but the gold and jewelry; personally looking through every hut and house for the tiniest piece that glimmers, bringing back necklaces with amber inlays and elaborate statuettes. Signs from trade afar and signs of wealth; both things that are now Lugalkam's.
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    We do have a conception of trade, comes from being settled for a while I guess. We should probably leave the area, because if this succeeds it will drive the fishers to go poke other people like us. I'd rather not have to rebuff them, especially when this land is as crowded as it seemingly is.

    ManusDomine said:
    His men impale the long sticks they held, which you realize are the broken spears of the fishing folk
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    Well that's getting remembered as a specific detail.

    ManusDomine said:
    Around him, the three men he called forth begin stomping their feet in the earth, singing a song which you understand not, despite your partial understanding of their language.

    "Ana Merthoche imen! Elenu thiemethoa imen!"

    They stomp their feet, they shout their cry to the heavens, and the warriors keeping the captives, bid the ones they have taken kneel and lay hands upon their shoulders, forcing them down.

    "Urumerthoch! Elenu keskel imen! Emkereene panazue imenak!"

    In the dying, golden glow of the sun, dark clouds have begun to gather on the sky, slowly blotting out the last, feeble rays of light. The warriors take from the captives, an old man, bringing him forward, towards the great camp, held by his arms, by two warriors, as Ninthutha's eyes have rotated, so her visage is spots of white, full of tiny, red veins. From her mouth come words that sound nothing like what the warriors now holler and scream, if they are word, they are words of Merthoch.

    In Lugalkam's hands, fire has begun as one would expect, and the smoke it gives off is caught in the heavy winds, dancing in a quick and murderous dance, while the three warriors have picked up their sticks, bashing them towards each other, roaring like beasts while they run around in circles. In the smoke and flame, the demons within your masks come alive, snarling and biting in the well-carved wood.

    "Merthoch! Arashgichar imene ninzu! Arashgichar imene shusum tumuzuene!"

    The light and heat of the fire can be felt even where you stand, the warriors have set their sticks alight. Only one holds the old man now, the other has digged a hole, in which they force him to kneel before filling it with earth again, so only his head pokes above the earth. Ninthutha has spread her arms, screaming words unknown to man, shaking violently in the light of the flame.

    "Merthoch!" The warriors and Lugalkam scream in unison, shouting to the heavens as Ninthutha collapses, as if her spirit had journeyed away from her vessel, while the warriors run to the village, setting alight every building they come nearby. In the reddish-orange sunset gleam of the burning village, you can yourself shiver, despite the heat; perhaps the warriors of the Land of the Gods are not vultures as they say they are.
    Click to expand...
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    Oh there's a lot of fun stuff to talk about in here. So first big thing is that the chant itself says that Arashgichar is the wife of Merthoch and that he gives her his children. Which ah... with the implication of his previous statement could be taken to mean that he considers us children of Merthoch, kinda like he is. Which is pretty huge as these things go.

    The next thing is the choice of the old man. Some might think it merciful, but it isn't, not really. See, in societies like the one present in this village which is settled tribal the elder man is likely a person of influence since conventional leaders and regularized singular positions of authority are not exactly static or well defined(this deserves an essay of it's own, *makes note*). This man was probably related to most of the people in the village and well respected, maybe the father of the guy Lugalkam beheaded. I've talked about how age is equated to worth and wisdom before when it comes to the Kin and such things apply in other societies, even Lugalkam's. Thus this man is a proper gift to Merthoch. I'll get into why this is mind bogglingly important later in this post.

    Ninthutha had some interesting features here by basically consecrating these actions in the eyes of Merthoch. Also note the authority which she wielded, with Lugalkam acquiescing to her wishes. This is because from the description, she is basically considered a mouth piece of Merthoch as his property. The trance she entered was something which can occur frequently in religious orders and on battle as well, a feature of humanity which is similar in ways to self hypnosis. We did not see her imbibe any form of drug or substance though which is usually also used so that's one curious thing. More than that, while Lugalkam was the one to light the fire she was the one really leading the ritual and in some ways her behavior is not that different from the ritualism the elder matrons used in Air's funeral.

    A final detail is that the demons in our hunter's masks were described as moving into the flame which is a very curious thing. I did not figure they were associated with fire and smoke or the snapping of burning wood. Though it makes sense for that kind of belief to exist if you consider Fire's name.

    So onto the other stuff I wanted to talk about.

    Trust and the act of gift giving.

    Here in the modern world trust is freely given to many. We trust our family, our friends, but more than the people in our direct monkey sphere you will also here talk of placing trust in our leaders. Or our gods, religions, philosophies and goverments(if you live in some places). This is very very much not the case in the old world. In the past the only people who were trusted were your family and, by extension with stuff I've talked about before, the tribe.

    Why is this? Well from an social evolutionary/anthropological perspective it is because of how hominids evolved. Take bands of monkeys and the great apes. They are social and friendly and cooperative amongst each other, but some times if you put them together with another band of monkeys they will literally eat each other. Humans come from this stock via the hominids like Homo erectus. So you would have it that these small bands of hominids, maybe a dozen to two or three dozen would be living in an incredibly harsh world full of Paleolithic super predators and literally the only thing they can trust is themselves and their close relatives. They may not even meet other hominids over the course of their entire lives and if they do, evidence suggests they are not advanced enough to not attempt to frighten away or attack these others.

    So you have these bands of proto-humans going about and doing their hunter gatherer thing until eventually humanity emerges fully as a distinct being. And all of that past has been carried with them, so you have the tribes of humans with an intense social drive aimed directly at trusting their family. They have no way to know that those other beings that look like them are safe. There is absolutely zero basis for trust in these earliest days.

    And this carries forward for millennia.

    From a more straightforward perspective, tribal peoples are not really in situations where trust can be freely extended simply for the nature of their lives. Which while fulfilling and depending on the environment potentially plentiful, are hard and engaging. This emerges often as beliefs that the foreigner is a beast or demon in human like skin. It's the sort of logical consequence of these sorts of beliefs. This is in part why cities and larger collections of people are so hard to control at first. You are pushing together people who have no mode or tools of trust which are actually usable in the cramped conditions of an urban setting.

    How else does this manifest? It ties into the diplomacy thing as well. Tribe to tribe relations can take ages, decades of interactions where they essentially feel each other out in a variety of ways. Most of which lean towards the violent side, though you can also get wacked stories of women essentially asking to be kidnapped once it's progressed far enough. I hope Manus holds to this lengthy period of pseudo trust gaining. And I use the term pseudo trust specifically because there's a pretty hard stop after a certain point where the two tribes might get together and celebrate something. The next step is marriage and making the two tribes one, which can be tricky to actually swing.

    As should be apparent this is both complicated and aided by being nomadic. Because one would move around a lot, it likely takes much time for one to develop relations with people, but on the flip side you can get through the turbulent periods relatively freely by just moving and leaving that connection behind if needed. It can be aided however because of connections you can make with fellow nomads, perhaps against settled folks or through some other means, by perhaps crossing similar paths regularly or by being related through distant blood ties. The similarity of beliefs also helps greatly.

    Trust then can evolve into something more as time progresses. We've seen some of it in talking to Lugalkam and Ninthutha, and in watching them interact. What am I talking about? Well, take a step to the side for a moment and consider; a man who is your blood brother is trustworthy, he is your only source of trust. But what of religion, where your fellows are brothers and sisters of faith? Religion can serve as the next step in the development of trust in human society. Via swearing themselves to a higher power, as how in families you obey your parents, the followers of a faith obey the edicts of their gods you can create an order which provides some means for people from different families to trust others.

    This is part of why priests and the religious Intercessors had such a massive influence in urban society. They were means for members of it's clergy who would come from many many many families in the city to work together under the aegis of religious trust. Through them then, other families can be very loosely tied together, and some of their grievances arbitrated without bloodshed under the eyes of the gods. This arbitration extended up to the very top of urban political society and was why ancient priests were so involved in politics. However, this trust was fragile. It can be broken if the religious order burns the trust the wider society places in them, and there's a variety of ways that can happen. And another way it can happen is if the priests and clergy become political in the wrong ways, by engaging in politics like rulers and nobles instead of holy arbitrators.

    Tied into this whole trust thing is of course the whole thing with seeing other humans as actually human instead of beasts in human skin. What religion ended up helping do along with some other features of advancing society is by bringing people together it fostered an environment wherein people could develop the absolutely crucial idea of "universality of humanity", which is the very simple idea that "that thing over there is also a human". The modern world wouldn't function without this and the other developments which began to occur alongside it.

    As should be apparent, the animist beliefs of the Kin are not really advanced enough to support this. That requires the development of actual gods and the advancement of religion, to the point that you actually get social separation into a priestly section, which of course requires proper food surplus and security. Usually found in the settled peoples, though I don't think it is entirely exclusive.

    Thus this then progressed along through many twists and turns which I don't know, which basically ends up in people being able to place trust in the idea of nation states and the rule of law. As an aside, this whole thing kinda casts Hammurabi in a new light for me. Dude was pretty cool.


    Now onto gift giving, which as one would expect is some what related to alllllllll of the above *waves hands upwards*. First, the thing to know is that what economies exist at this time, except perhaps in Lugalkam's land, are gift economies. These are distinct from barter economies, in a very specific way, namely that barter economies invariably spring up post-currency and occur on the small scale as a means to exchange items whence, via currency, their value can be agreed upon by two parties. Gift economies however are the economies that the Kin run on, and they aren't even really about the transfer of goods. They are about the transfer and creation of ties of obligation in a form of "I give you something, I expect something back". This can vary from tribe to tribe but there is a very very veeeeeeeery strong idea of reciprocity to them.

    This obviously ties into the whole trust thing I've already talked your eyeballs off about. Obligation and trust are not that far apart, and set limits of acceptable behavior. Thus in the ancient world, gifts are not really about making a person happy or seeing a joyous expression on a person's face like they are in modern times. They are a ritualistic method to gain trust via tenuous obligation ties in a world where trust is bereft.

    One might be beginning to see why doing gift giving right is kinda a huge thing in the world right now. Overwhelming the bounds of reciprocity is basically the source of the idea of a "gift which is actually a curse", because it impinges on a persons honor by essentially saying that you the gift giver is the superior of the gift receiver. Or another way to put it in a modern equivalent. If I am a man with billions upon billions, served the most delectable feast imaginable and I invite a starving man to sit and watch me eat the entire thing in front of him that is the sort of thing one says by overloading on a gift in these times.

    The giving of gifts must also be tailored in another way. One cannot, sometimes, give a gift which is equivalent to their social position if you the gift giver are of lower position. It implies that you think yourself your equal. The proper gift is one which is at the edge of your means, showing your lesser position and proper respect for your superior. Conversely a superior can gift you with a thing beyond your means as a way to establish sovereignty, much like a parent gives a gift or boon to a child.

    An example of this is the tributary states the Chinese had. They would give gifts below the station of the emperor to the emperor, and in return the emperor would give them sweet shit beyond what they themselves could have. It's also a neat way to tie them to the Chinese, because it gives sweet perks.

    So yeah, temper your impulse to shower people in shinnies and don't get weirded out if you hear someone complaining about too good gifts.
    Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Aug 2, 2018 at 5:48 AM, finished with 343 posts and 18 votes.
    • [X] Language - You will attempt to learn the language of your captives, by means of interaction with them, naming things in your language, and making them do the same in theirs. You will also attempt to teach them your own language, thus ensuring that they can speak, and know what to say when they come to the rest of the Kin to Air.
      [X] Food - You will attempt to gather food and forage while you travel, ensuring that you have more than just what you need to complete the journey. Thus, the Kin to Air will be able to walk and travel for longer, as will surely be necessary many times during the Great Journey towards the place seen in the fire.
      [X] Joy - You will attempt to bring good cheer over the hunters, ensuring that they are in good mood when they return. Both the captives and the hunters you bring, should both be cheerful, so that they best as possible can get along, and meet the rest of the Kin to Air with smiles rather than surly faces.
      [X] Exploration - You will attempt to learn more of this strange land by the river, which you have come to, by sending out hunters short of days to return with news of what they see, and sending out hunters long of days to experience personally what it is, and give their verdict on the nature of all that they find.
    Click to expand...

    Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Aug 3, 2018 at 5:51 PM, finished with 347 posts and 19 votes.
    • [X] Language - You will attempt to learn the language of your captives, by means of interaction with them, naming things in your language, and making them do the same in theirs. You will also attempt to teach them your own language, thus ensuring that they can speak, and know what to say when they come to the rest of the Kin to Air.
      [X] Food - You will attempt to gather food and forage while you travel, ensuring that you have more than just what you need to complete the journey. Thus, the Kin to Air will be able to walk and travel for longer, as will surely be necessary many times during the Great Journey towards the place seen in the fire.
      [X] Joy - You will attempt to bring good cheer over the hunters, ensuring that they are in good mood when they return. Both the captives and the hunters you bring, should both be cheerful, so that they best as possible can get along, and meet the rest of the Kin to Air with smiles rather than surly faces.
      [X] Exploration - You will attempt to learn more of this strange land by the river, which you have come to, by sending out hunters short of days to return with news of what they see, and sending out hunters long of days to experience personally what it is, and give their verdict on the nature of all that they find.
    Click to expand...
     
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    • Look Upon My Works - Ashes
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    • Aaaand, update!

    [X] Language
    [X] Food

    Ashes

    The ashes of the camp of the fishing people are still fresh; tiny fires still burn, casting rapidly fading shadows in the pale, naked dawn. In the smouldering graveyard that had been a village, a few pieces of jewelry still lie scorched and ruined. The old man that the black-headed people had sacrificed lies still in the earth, his head no more than a burnt, vaguely misshapen lump of ash-covered flesh and soot-struck bone. Here, a trident lies broken, there a spear has stuck itself into the earth after someone threw it. The children, and some of the women that you have taken, climb and clamber through the coldly ashen graveyard, while others prefer to stand at a distance, staring numbly at the fuming ruins of what had once been their lives. Some kneel, weeping, covering their faces with their hands and speaking prayers in their strange, guttural language; casting spears and tridents into the river, asking the alien spirits that must protect them, to rise up, to punish the destroyers, to bring them deliverance, to cast away the ravenous, rapine swarm that has taken all they know away.

    The river does not answer, and the people who used to be fishers remain alone, weeping, begging for something they know can never happen.
    The sharp, cold breeze playing across your face feels so awfully much like rain, yet the skies are as naked and unclouded as the memories of the flame, dancing it's frightful dance in the wood and clay.

    You gather yourself, calling the hunters - no, the not hunters anymore, Blooded - together to meet you by the river. You do not bother looking for the taken people, the hunt- Blooded take whoever they fancy with them, the children will follow, and the rest cannot leave, much less fight you at all. They are as helpless as the fish they once caught in nets, but a few days before you came. The Blooded gather in a loose, circular assembly; children and women standing outside it, if anyone wishes to flee, they will not survive for long. No pursuit is necessary.

    You ask of them firstly, that you debate the value of a kill in combat, for you are not hunters anymore, but Blooded and the slayers of men. Forth, does a Blooded man named Twining River, step and speak his mind, that while the killing of another slayer of men, is an impressive feat, they are not the prey that are you sworn by the spirits. This, he reasons can be clearly evidenced, from the paintings that had been made upon cave walls by their own ancestors of the ancestors in the valley from which they had come, where in, only the slaying of animals was depicted. Thus, it could be clearly reasoned forth, that the ancestors of the ancestors did not consider the slaying of their enemies a wholesome and good activity to engage in, and were thus, themselves, not Blooded.

    This, you agree, is a strong argument for proper behaviour, but does not, itself propose an answer then, to the conundrum of what to consider of the value in the taking a human life in war.

    To this, another Blooded, who is named Grass Snake, and was born long-haired and more elegant than others of his sex, steps up and speaks. He strikes first his spear upon a rock, to ensure that all gaze upon him, and speaks then, with a clear, shrill voice that it is evident to him, that the value of taking a human life in times of warfare, should be that:

    What Is The Price Of A Life?
    This vote will impact how the Kin to Air view the act of murder in combat, and may impact their Practices and Myths. Choose up to two.
    [ ] Shame - The reward for taking a human life shall be the shame of community and one's fellows. Taking a life is tantamount to becoming like a wolf, destroying the works of man and taking their heartsblood. There is no greatness or joy, but sometimes, a wolf must hunt.

    [ ] Embrace - The reward for taking a human life shall be the embrace of all who surround one. Taking the life of another marks one as an experienced, powerful and worldly person, who is to be joined to the community and sought as a partner of marriage.

    [ ] Glory - The reward for taking a human life shall be the glory of a great deed done. Taking a life is a valorous achievement, for in the contest between two men of skill is the greatest challenge of all, and deserves recognition for the achievement.

    [ ] Rejection - The reward for taking a human life shall be the rejection of those who know one. Taking a life befouls the body with dangerous power, thus one must be rejected and treated as a murderer in daily life, for they hold great power of death in their hands.

    This argument is beautiful to you, for it is well-reasoned, made with great eloquence and spoken with high certainty of its own correctness, but does not reach greater than it is. Thus, you speak your agreement, and invite all who disagree to speak their mind, to which none of the assembled of the Blooded respond, and you deem it satisfactory, and to be clear and true as day, for the convene of the Blooded at the Fishing Hill - which you have named this place - have decided it.

    Then you speak up, that the youngest of the Blooded assembled, who had not yet proven his skill in combat step forth and name himself, and three boys, barely young men at all step forth to name themselves; Reed, Stick and Stone. You bid these run a lap around the Fishing Hill, and return to you, and speak to you which one was fastest, and then the one who was fastest, shall be made to run for the remainder of the Kin to Air, and bring them here, so that the journey can continue, and you can speak to them of what has happened, and what deeds have been committed.

    As they run, it seems clear to you, that Stick shall be successful, for his form is great, and his run is practiced well, but Stone overtakes him at the end, sprinting faster and making it to you. Thus, it is made clear to you, that the spirits helped him conserve his stamina, and would likely aid him similarly when bringing your message to the Kin to Air, and you instruct him, to shout when he sees them, "I have come! I bring news from afar, and from Fire Defeats-Many! I have come!" and he begins walking, to collect his provisions for the journey.

    In the meantime, you too, must do the same, so you bid the Blooded seek food, in the way they know, by spear and sling, and by gathering it, in order to ensure there is plenty for all. For this place has a great bounty of food, and the area around the Fishing Hill, is similarly blessed with abundance, for here the river flows clear and strong. Thus, you consider it to be of vital importance, to ensure that you make great use of this bounty, for you feel a great hunger, and the Kin to Air that shall arrive, will lack your skill and finesse in the ways of the hunt.

    You decide, also to learn to speak the tongue of the women and children that you have taken. You will learn the language here, both to find yourself a wife among them, for you are as of yet unwed, and to ease your own ability to command them; a pragmatic, but useful goal to set oneself. Unfortunately, you are not the only one who has made that decision, and in the following days, several of the women that you attempt to learn the language from, attempt to learn yours as well - with significantly greater success, even - at the cost of your own ability to learn theirs.

    Stone sets off, running and walking for three days, and enduring an adventure of his own, but that is a story for another time, for three days later, Stone returns with the Kin to Air in tow, and carrying in his hands, three spears and a shield of the kind that had been worn by the men from the Land of the Gods, as well as wearing a cape on his shoulders, of wolven skin. As he returns, you make great celebration of his deeds and passage into mandom, and ask him that he regale the Blooded with the tales of what came to pass, just as you shall regale the Kin to Air with the stories of the past days.

    You assemble a fire - there is plenty of ready tinder - for storytelling, and take to wearing your mask, shifting and moving in the flickering shadows of the firelight, as the Blooded sing a low chorus to give power to your voice. Here you tell them, of the black-headed people from the Land of the Gods, of Lugalkam and the frightful power of his shuhadaku, and of the bloodthirsty archer named Merthoch and the fire that consumed the Fishing People, even as the black-headed people dragged away all that you did not take for yourself.

    What Shall You Tell Them?
    Special vote: the result of this vote will decide the next few updates, that will cover the beginning of the heroic narrative tradition of the Kin to Air.
    [ ] Sing of Spears - You sing and speak of a great battle, of the warfare that the Blooded of the Kin to Air made upon the Fishing People; of your great deeds, of the bright-cutting blade of Lugalkam from the land where the gods live.

    [ ] Sing of History - A woman, who is among those taken from the Fishing People named Ash-thohe Kush-uy, has learnt of the tongue of the Kin to Air, and will sing to you, of the past of the Fishing People, and the hill that their camp stands on, and the struggles of their ancestors and the blessings of the river being.

    [ ] Sing of Stone - Stone sings of his travel, and of the deeds that he accomplished in his journey; the swift strokes of his spear duel, the wrathful victory over the wolf he faced, and his return and bringing the Kin to Air to the Blooded.
     
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