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Look Upon My Works

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Susano said:
Here's something to consider: Those people from a land in the deep south. We are going NW, IIRC. Therefore, we are moving away from them and in the general direction of their enemies. Do we want to make enemies out of people we might meet in the future?
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Yes. We will vanquish them, see them driven before us and hear the lamentations of their women!
 
BungieONI said:
Uhh...

That sounds rather ill-advised given our hosts sound about the same size and theirs is more advanced when it comes to fighting men.
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Thus, the point of trickery :V

@ManusDomine Was trying to think of a way to talk to the raiders first before the attack, then act from there, but I am not sure how fine control we actually have of the group, or if it were even possible.


But mostly, to keep an eye out for more fox options since we took it :p
 
ManusDomine said:
There is no limit or requirement for how elaborate it needs to be, but I won't accept something if it is obviously an attempt to have your cake and eat it too.
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i am greatly disappointed at this obvious attempt at railroading

because this is clearly @ManusDomine not allowing us to have more than one cake

we must revolt so that we may have our cakes and eat some, but leave enough to have our cakes as well
 
Sivantic said:
Thus, the point of trickery :V

@ManusDomine Was trying to think of a way to talk to the raiders first before the attack, then act from there, but I am not sure how fine control we actually have of the group, or if it were even possible.


But mostly, to keep an eye out for more fox options since we took it :p
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If you can formulate it in a vote, then this is fine.
 
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BungieONI - Essay on the Kin to Air
  • Apocrypha
    • ManusDomine said:
    The song rises slowly, it is mournful and accompanied by slow, deliberate drumming. The hunters stand in a ring, grabbing the shoulders of each other, moving side to side like the calm river waves of their old home, the greatest among them bearing wolven cloaks and fearsome accoutrements run around them in a circle, bearing masks upon their faces in the shape of terrible beings. They are the demons that the woman named Air will face on her journey into the dark. Inside the circle, the women stamp their feet and sing in synchronized, dulcet tones of her many deeds: reconciler, uniter, leader, hero. They immortalize her journey into the underworld, riding upon the Bull and led by the Bird, for the wise old women who sit within the tent of the elders have told them well of her solemn ride, which they have seen with the eyes of spirits.

    You carry upon your back, the pillar of the Fox, the god brought up from the underworld by the actions of Air, around you are four hunters handpicked by you, who slam their spears against each other, to produce fearsome rattling noises when the long strings of bones attached to them with safely secured cords rustle against each other. Like the other hunters, you wear masks carved in the shape of fearsome animals, but unlike them, yours are all in a vulpine shape, to emulate the Fox which you carry. By wearing it's mask, you take part of the cunning and great hunting ability that will help you against the servants of Wolven Dream. In the center of the ceremony, stands one of the old matrons, although which one you are unsure. She bears a many-layered dress with many hanging bones and beautiful ornaments, and upon her face, she wears a mask befitting of a spirit on its journey. In the grand ritual, she is Air and has returned to show her Kin the path towards the underworld.

    The slow, grief-stricken ceremonies proceed through the week, marking it as a full month since you last turned your backs upon the place which you once called home, and came to this strange place of stone gods and underworldly gates. At the end of the week, an end comes to the procession which has begun by daybreak and ended as the Beauteous Ancestor can hold the attention of his heavenly wife no more, and night returns, every day. The ceremonial masks are to be taken off, for there is no need for demons anymore, although an exception could be made.

    Do Some Not Take Their Masks Off?
    This vote can influence the rituals, practices and folklore of the Kin to Air.
    [ ] The Hunters Keep Their Masks - The wolf is a dangerous animal, for it is a demon running wild, but no other earthly beast rivals its prowess. By taking on the demonic aspect before the hunt, the hunters become like the wolves and ensure the greatest hunts of all time as long as they fight like the wolven pack, but may find themselves punished if they fail to give honour to Wolven Dream.

    [ ] No One Keeps Their Masks - It is unseemly to bear masks and seek to become as spirits beyond the bounds of the rituals. Surely the potters and matrons know well when it is the proper time to become as demons, gods and spirits? To bear them in other situations would be pretense to something greater, and could risk your covenant with all things spiritual.

    [ ] You Keep Your Mask - You have gained the favour of Fox, and it is only best to show it in all ways. Pronounce yourself Great Hunter, and bear the mask of Fox to gain great powers over hunting and trickery to rival the cleverest ancestors. Bear the mask with pride and be empowered, but bear it dishonestly and find yourself punished greatly.
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    Hah perfect. Definitely will deify her and I quite like the practice of wearing the mask which represents one who died. I mean, its basically primitive theatre or play acting. Its great. @ManusDomine, how long is a month for the Kin to Air? I would more expect references to a season or part of a season, as "months" are usually a post calendar thing what with not exactly being relevant to tribal life, in particular tribal nomadic life from what I understand.

    The Hunters keeping the masks is, as the last bit indicates, a way to respect Wolven Dream so that he does not smite your foolish head. It also encourages more advanced thinking on fighting.

    Of particular note in the religious beliefs for the Kin, I would argue two things, which are actually pretty important. The first, is that they have no conception of a true divinity as one might describe a god like Ba'al or Zeus or Mother Earth. Their theological philosophy is simple. They revere beings which they have seen, the Fox, the Bull, the Bird, the River, the Valley and so on, and the ancestors of ancestors are still regarded as having been people. The Kin lack a conception of a thing outside the world which was never of the world even though it created it like gods have a sense of. Take for example the Norse concept of Ymir the giant frost ogre/titan, a being which was never human, forging the world through some divine act like, in his case sweating and sacrificing of himself, and in one other case a part of his body copulating with another part. That's the thing I am describing that the Kin lack, a true conception of what the "divine" could be.

    This ties in heavily with the second thing, which is that I would argue that the Kin believe most of the world in some way descends from their ancestors of ancestors, i.e it descends from humans. Note the references to the Sun as a Beauteous Ancestor, and not a primal ball of sapient and holy flame. The sun is regarded as a remnant of whatever ancestor of ancestors came before. It is human in origin. This gives a sense of context I would think for the Kin to approach the world, that of it essentially existing as it does because the very greatest of the greatest elders make it do so. Which makes sense given their cultural norms as they stand.

    As to the vote options the first marks the hunters and puts that part of their society on the path to becoming more complex. I doubt what we would conceive of as a priesthood is really in the cards since we are nomadic and that lends it more to the sort of naturalist paths of shaman, medicine man and wise man. Or woman as the case currently is. Because we already revere them this marking will raise them higher as a sort of matter of course. Just how human psychology works. Like accenting for a fine jewel. There's probably more I could say on this matter, but I need to think about it.

    Not wearing the masks seems to indicate investing more importance on the matrons and potters from the wording, but honestly? Can't tell. *shrug*

    With Fire Defeats-Many wearing the mask that encourages the seed for another Forum type, that of a leading man or other leading individual. My first conclusion is that would likely lead to annoyances down the line as tradition starts getting confused on the matter of who the warriors should listen to. More so than it will naturally anyway. I'm not sure on this however. It will definitely cause a change later down the road at some point since it basically enshrines the position of "Great Hunter" as an official thing in the social frame of the Kin's society, which will likely also serve as an outlet for things I don't understand.

    ManusDomine said:
    As the ceremony ends, there are other things to be taken care of, and you quickly assemble a hunting party with gifts among you. Potters and weavers join you, to carry gifts and weave flower garlands. You set out from camp and follow along the river until you find the original tracks, from which you begin to lead onwards towards their eventual end. The journey goes on for days, as you stop only to tend to the aching legs of your many followers, and to hold camp and plan the trip. The food becomes scarce as the days go on, and you begin hunting and gathering food as normal to forage for the group, as the packed supplies begin to strain.

    On the twelfth day of searching, you spot them in the distance; a group of forty, if not more men walking in order, wearing strange wooden blocks affixed with leather on their feet and bearing even stranger rectangles made of wicker in their left hands, while all holding spears in their right. Their hair is shaved in identical styles, and some top their heads with strange, conical caps of some presumed protective purpose, and a few likewise even wear thick shirts of leather coated with metallic splints, seeming nearly invincible behind their armoured panoply. They walk in lockstep to the sound of a drum, which is banged upon relentlessly by one who bears no spear like the others and has hung the strange wicker shield over their arm with a leather strap.

    You see them, before they see you, and approach them with hands that are raised in friendly gestures, as you make sure to plant your spears with the head first in the ground where they can see it. You approach them slowly and deliberately, women and young men who have not yet hunted beasts themselves come first, bearing gifts, and one of the foreign men step forward, resplendent in his panoply that would surely make him as almost invincible to your spears, slings and bows. He opens his mouth, and speaks in a hoarse voice, that is tired of shouting.

    "Mannu imenzen? Mannu imenzenak lugalzunene? Ammeni nadanu zenee igisumeneshe anna geneo?" he says, in some language which you do not know of, or have heard before. It is rough and guttural, sounding like the tongue of a fierce people, but it sounds most of all like a question of some sort.

    "I do not understand what you are saying! Do you speak another tongue?" you respond in your native language, hoping that he will understand you, although you suspect likely not.

    After some giving of gifts, and sinking of spears, the heavily bearded man with his proud helmet and splinted armour approaches you, having lowered his weapons, and says to you in a friendly tone, "Imenzen lukurulene!"

    He makes motions towards a large nearby stone, upon which he goes to sit, saying to the other men that were with him, something in his strange tongue, and they fetch another, approximately just as large stone and set it in the earth near his own, and you sit on it.

    The men with him seat themselves on the earth, and your hunters do the same in a reciprocal gesture, as the gifts are enjoyed and fruit and food are shared around. The foreign people have strange, new food with them, such as dry buns covered in a crust, which they call "bappirene", and offer freely. Through wide, pointing gestures and signs on the earth, made with your spears, the man manages to inform you that he is named Lugalkam, and wishes to learn your name, which you draw the signs on the earth for, and say for him, and he translates it into his own tongue, naming you Izidabduesh with a sandpaper-dry voice.

    Time passes, and you slowly learn to communicate rudimentary sentences to each other, and you learn that these are men from a far southern place, which they call the Land of the Gods. The word he uses to describe himself and his fellows has no equivalent in your language, although you come to call them "warriors", or "vultures", for they are a party of those who would be hunters in your tribe, but here fight with shields and spears to kill other men, and not to hunt beasts. The man, Lugalkam, asks if you will send back the gift-givers and potters to the place from which you came, and you will accompany his people in their current expedition, which is a raid against a people who live by the river, and have slighted him in the past, and raided cruelly against his people. He does make clear that he would gladly share the results of the raid with you and yours, if it succeeds.

    Will You Aid Lugalkam?
    The effects of this vote on the Kin to Air are secret.
    [ ] Aid the Raid - You will send back the gift-givers and potters, and follow the raiders as hunters, to aid in their goal, against payment from the results of the raid. This will cement better relations with the people from the southern Land of the Gods.

    [ ] Do Not Aid the Raid - You will not aid them, as you do not know them well enough and do not wish risking the lives of the hunters. Participating in the raid cannot be an option, and the payment might not make up for any lives lost.

    [ ] Write-In - Provide some other service or response. Subject to QM veto.
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    First thing that occurs to me, actually has nothing to do with the people, but the food. The situation as described is not something I would call good given how the prepared supplies didn't last all that long based on what it said. Not having lots of stored food says to me we really don't stay here. Not now. I've said this every update we've been in this Region, but that wasn't urgent, not like this is.

    Other than that there's what happened in the rest of this section. I'm certainly interested that we managed to get meaning across to these people and they to us in what is essentially a couple hours of discussion. Not exactly what I expected though gesture is at least okay at communicating "I am not going to stab you."

    There are several interesting pieces here. The first is that as we interact with them the Kin will likely note the usefulness of sandals and if we go to fight with them that will we note the usefulness of them and their shields. I expect technical innovations just from meeting these people of Lugalkam even if we do nothing else, thought up as we face the hardships of travel. In particular the walk back to the rest of our Kin.

    The next thing is Lugalkam's voice. For his voice to be hoarse like it is, their home is at least a day's march to the south. Probably more since I understand it can actually take a few days to get that way, though probably not more than a week. They've certainly impressed our hunters and specifically Fire Defeats-Many with his frequent references to invincibility.

    Also, their language is an inflected one, which makes a lot of sense since that's how a lot of ancient languages worked. Specifically note the words "Imenzen" and "Imenzenak". From context I'm guessing that "Mannu Imenzen" is something like "Do you mean to be Friend-Men?" or something like that. A query to those men over there as to if they are Friend-Men. No fucking clue as to their grammar but, meh. "Imenzen lukurulene" is something along the lines of you man over there be welcome.

    Then we come to the bappirene, which I'm not sure exactly which variety of road bread it's supposed to be, but it is pretty clearly road food. And it indicates to me that they are likely only semi nomadic, because if they are sharing it freely then they have it in quantity and making such things in quantity for something probably approaching eighty people is not exactly something small and requires quite a bit of grain. If he gave us dried meats or butchered a herd animal I'd call them nomads like the Kin are becoming. It is also interesting that he wants to enlist our aid. He's intelligent, Lugalkam, but I find it interesting his pride/honor/code of society doesn't really seem to object to this. It doesn't seem exactly new to him unless we managed to become really good friends so quickly and the idea struck him out of the blue, and I don't think alcohol was involved in the discussion.

    The fact that he gave us a name in his own tongue is not exactly strange, because I can vaguely remember such things happening in history, but I'm not sure what to make of it in this context.

    Culturally, if I wrote this as a story it'd go something like this:

    The wise and kindly Fire Defeats-Many found a wounded man on the Path.
    When Fire Defeats-Many asked the man what ailed him the man said
    "Oh! For I am Lugalkam and I have been struck upon the breast by foul River-Men!"
    "They have taken from me and mine with foul spirit and arms! Will you help me, Izidabduesh, Kind Man of the Road?"

    Fire Defeats-Many considered this man's plight, and was struck by the honor and prideful form Lugalkam carried, shining as if girded in metal.
    And so Fire Defeats-Many picked up Lugalkam and gave him his shoulder upon which to rest and he said.
    "I would call you friend-man and I hear your plight." Overjoyed at this development, life entered Lugalkam again and he led Fire Defeats-Many against the foul River-Men in many adventures.

    Maybe. First thing that springs to mind at least.

    E: Oh right votes.

    [X] The Hunters Keep Their Masks - The wolf is a dangerous animal, for it is a demon running wild, but no other earthly beast rivals its prowess. By taking on the demonic aspect before the hunt, the hunters become like the wolves and ensure the greatest hunts of all time as long as they fight like the wolven pack, but may find themselves punished if they fail to give honour to Wolven Dream.

    [X] Aid the Raid - You will send back the gift-givers and potters, and follow the raiders as hunters, to aid in their goal, against payment from the results of the raid. This will cement better relations with the people from the southern Land of the Gods.
     
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  • Apocrypha
    • [X] No One Keeps Their Masks - It is unseemly to bear masks and seek to become as spirits beyond the bounds of the rituals. Surely the potters and matrons know well when it is the proper time to become as demons, gods and spirits? To bear them in other situations would be pretense to something greater, and could risk your covenant with all things spiritual.
    I like that bit about "pretense to something greater."
     
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    Right, okay, I'm going to split this post up into many to reply properly. First of all, I'd like to thank you for taking the time and effort to make posts like these, because they are really quite a blessing.

    BungieONI said:
    Hah perfect. Definitely will deify her and I quite like the practice of wearing the mask which represents one who died. I mean, its basically primitive theatre or play acting. Its great. @ManusDomine, how long is a month for the Kin to Air? I would more expect references to a season or part of a season, as "months" are usually a post calendar thing what with not exactly being relevant to tribal life, in particular tribal nomadic life from what I understand.
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    I'm going to disappoint you here, and say a month is a month like ours, because I keep making references to them and forget making use of seasonal and relative time, and just end up using absolute time instead. If I had not forgotten this, they'd probably be referring to "days since the beginning of the ceremony" or "days since the descent into the underworld" as subdivisional units of "days since our exodus from the valley", which is again, a subdivision of the seasons, which they generally hold to be Sun Time (June, July, August, September), Cold Time (October, November, December, January, February) and Growth Time (March, April and May).

    BungieONI said:
    Of particular note in the religious beliefs for the Kin, I would argue two things, which are actually pretty important. The first, is that they have no conception of a true divinity as one might describe a god like Ba'al or Zeus or Mother Earth. Their theological philosophy is simple. They revere beings which they have seen, the Fox, the Bull, the Bird, the River, the Valley and so on, and the ancestors of ancestors are still regarded as having been people. The Kin lack a conception of a thing outside the world which was never of the world even though it created it like gods have a sense of. Take for example the Norse concept of Ymir the giant frost ogre/titan, a being which was never human, forging the world through some divine act like, in his case sweating and sacrificing of himself, and in one other case a part of his body copulating with another part. That's the thing I am describing that the Kin lack, a true conception of what the "divine" could be.

    This ties in heavily with the second thing, which is that I would argue that the Kin believe most of the world in some way descends from their ancestors of ancestors, i.e it descends from humans. Note the references to the Sun as a Beauteous Ancestor, and not a primal ball of sapient and holy flame. The sun is regarded as a remnant of whatever ancestor of ancestors came before. It is human in origin. This gives a sense of context I would think for the Kin to approach the world, that of it essentially existing as it does because the very greatest of the greatest elders make it do so. Which makes sense given their cultural norms as they stand.
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    Right, this is all correct except for one little note, which is a bit easy to miss given it has only come up once before, but the sun is actually the wife of the Beauteous Ancestor, whom he seduces by morning, lays with by day, until she finally gives birth to their daughter, the moon by evening, until she tries to kill her mother by night and the Beauteous Ancestor must tragically slay her, and convince his wife that perhaps, they shall receive a new daughter with Proper Respect For The Elders the next time, and the cycle repeats. The world, is very self-contained to the Kin, and there is no real need for a true "unmoved mover" in their understanding of the world, because the world can be described as quite alive, so it needs nothing to move it. Spirits reside in concrete places, and won't not respond because they are immaterial and insubstantial, but probably because you are being Very Rude and do not know how to properly speak to them, which old people and shamanic figures do, as a result of their tremendous life experience.

    BungieONI said:
    Other than that there's what happened in the rest of this section. I'm certainly interested that we managed to get meaning across to these people and they to us in what is essentially a couple hours of discussion. Not exactly what I expected though gesture is at least okay at communicating "I am not going to stab you."
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    This is essentially boiling down to making drawings in the earth, and Lugalkam saying them in his language, and then you saying it in your language. It's enough to get basic concepts across, but not enough for complicated information, which is why you are currently very limited in what you actually know of these strange people from their southern Land of the Gods. He's told you a bit about their spirits/gods, and they generally seem to be mean assholes that whimsically decide to turn rivers to flood when people play too loud music or enjoy themselves too much.

    BungieONI said:
    Then we come to the bappirene, which I'm not sure exactly which variety of road bread it's supposed to be, but it is pretty clearly road food. And it indicates to me that they are likely only semi nomadic, because if they are sharing it freely then they have it in quantity and making such things in quantity for something probably approaching eighty people is not exactly something small and requires quite a bit of grain. If he gave us dried meats or butchered a herd animal I'd call them nomads like the Kin are becoming. It is also interesting that he wants to enlist our aid. He's intelligent, Lugalkam, but I find it interesting his pride/honor/code of society doesn't really seem to object to this. It doesn't seem exactly new to him unless we managed to become really good friends so quickly and the idea struck him out of the blue, and I don't think alcohol was involved in the discussion.
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    The closest modern equivalent to bappir would be Itallian biscotti. Notably, the current party seems to consist of only warriors, carrying water skins and many sacks of bread, and no people who don't have some sort of fighting purpose.
     
    That's a really interesting breakdown and information post Bungie. Pretty cool stuff.
    BungieONI said:
    Then we come to the bappirene, which I'm not sure exactly which variety of road bread it's supposed to be, but it is pretty clearly road food. And it indicates to me that they are likely only semi nomadic, because if they are sharing it freely then they have it in quantity and making such things in quantity for something probably approaching eighty people is not exactly something small and requires quite a bit of grain. If he gave us dried meats or butchered a herd animal I'd call them nomads like the Kin are becoming. It is also interesting that he wants to enlist our aid. He's intelligent, Lugalkam, but I find it interesting his pride/honor/code of society doesn't really seem to object to this. It doesn't seem exactly new to him unless we managed to become really good friends so quickly and the idea struck him out of the blue, and I don't think alcohol was involved in the discussion.
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    Hmm. Okay, so, apparently our guys are nomadic clans -- or on the way to becoming nomadic -- and this is a first major meeting with non-nomadic peoples? So, this could also be something to set precedent for how we'll interact with other peoples.

    So I'm liable to accept. It might mean that we're more likely to be interested in and liable to listen to or befriend non-nomadic peoples. Plus, if it can lead to being nomads that don't serve mostly as a horrible threat and constant enemy to non-nomadic tribes, and instead could mean that there's some relationship between nomads and non-nomads at the start... that could be interesting, you know? ((Or, well... the fact that we decided to pick a fight just because somebody asked us, might mean we do become sorta like that. Then again, we're not just picking a fight with anybody. Rather, we're reacting to somebody being friendly to us. And this both means that we're likely to want to talk to anybody who's willing to talk to us, and that we could make friends.))

    Perhaps something more like occasional mercenaries or people you can deal with or even befriend (in ways that aren't just shows of might and positions of strength), rather than occasional raiders you have to appease or might sometimes redirect.

    Now we just need to make friends with a fortified port/river city too, and we'll have a trio.
    BungieONI said:
    It is also interesting that he wants to enlist our aid. He's intelligent, Lugalkam, but I find it interesting his pride/honor/code of society doesn't really seem to object to this. It doesn't seem exactly new to him unless we managed to become really good friends so quickly and the idea struck him out of the blue, and I don't think alcohol was involved in the discussion.
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    That's interesting? Okay. What do you think it might result in or lead to, if we also picked up some of that value, whatever it is? (Of course, it could also be this guy deciding on a gut instinct to try something new. Still, interesting if true.) Could mean greater cooperation and willingness to ask for help. Could be less confidence/pride/prestige, who knows. Or could just mean more willingness to talk to other peoples. That could be cool too; a sort of explorer who goes out and discovers and talks to new people.


    [X] The Hunters Keep Their Masks - The wolf is a dangerous animal, for it is a demon running wild, but no other earthly beast rivals its prowess. By taking on the demonic aspect before the hunt, the hunters become like the wolves and ensure the greatest hunts of all time as long as they fight like the wolven pack, but may find themselves punished if they fail to give honour to Wolven Dream.

    [X] Aid the Raid - You will send back the gift-givers and potters, and follow the raiders as hunters, to aid in their goal, against payment from the results of the raid. This will cement better relations with the people from the southern Land of the Gods.
     
    ManusDomine said:
    Right, okay, I'm going to split this post up into many to reply properly. First of all, I'd like to thank you for taking the time and effort to make posts like these, because they are really quite a blessing.


    I'm going to disappoint you here, and say a month is a month like ours, because I keep making references to them and forget making use of seasonal and relative time, and just end up using absolute time instead. If I had not forgotten this, they'd probably be referring to "days since the beginning of the ceremony" or "days since the descent into the underworld" as subdivisional units of "days since our exodus from the valley", which is again, a subdivision of the seasons, which they generally hold to be Sun Time (June, July, August, September), Cold Time (October, November, December, January, February) and Growth Time (March, April and May).



    Right, this is all correct except for one little note, which is a bit easy to miss given it has only come up once before, but the sun is actually the wife of the Beauteous Ancestor, whom he seduces by morning, lays with by day, until she finally gives birth to their daughter, the moon by evening, until she tries to kill her mother by night and the Beauteous Ancestor must tragically slay her, and convince his wife that perhaps, they shall receive a new daughter with Proper Respect For The Elders the next time, and the cycle repeats. The world, is very self-contained to the Kin, and there is no real need for a true "unmoved mover" in their understanding of the world, because the world can be described as quite alive, so it needs nothing to move it. Spirits reside in concrete places, and won't not respond because they are immaterial and insubstantial, but probably because you are being Very Rude and do not know how to properly speak to them, which old people and shamanic figures do, as a result of their tremendous life experience.


    This is essentially boiling down to making drawings in the earth, and Lugalkam saying them in his language, and then you saying it in your language. It's enough to get basic concepts across, but not enough for complicated information, which is why you are currently very limited in what you actually know of these strange people from their southern Land of the Gods. He's told you a bit about their spirits/gods, and they generally seem to be mean assholes that whimsically decide to turn rivers to flood when people play too loud music or enjoy themselves too much.


    The closest modern equivalent to bappir would be Itallian biscotti. Notably, the current party seems to consist of only warriors, carrying water skins and many sacks of bread, and no people who don't have some sort of fighting purpose.
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    *all smiles*

    Thanks Manus.

    Garlak said:
    That's a really interesting breakdown and information post Bungie. Pretty cool stuff.

    Hmm. Okay, so, apparently our guys are nomadic clans -- or on the way to becoming nomadic -- and this is a first major meeting with non-nomadic peoples? So, this could also be something to set precedent for how we'll interact with other peoples.

    So I'm liable to accept. It might mean that we're more likely to be interested in and liable to listen to or befriend non-nomadic peoples. Plus, if it can lead to being nomads that don't serve mostly as a horrible threat and constant enemy to non-nomadic tribes, and instead could mean that there's some relationship between nomads and non-nomads at the start... that could be interesting, you know? ((Or, well... the fact that we decided to pick a fight just because somebody asked us, might mean we do become sorta like that. Then again, we're not just picking a fight with anybody. Rather, we're reacting to somebody being friendly to us. And this both means that we're likely to want to talk to anybody who's willing to talk to us, and that we could make friends.))

    Perhaps something more like occasional mercenaries or people you can deal with or even befriend (in ways that aren't just shows of might and positions of strength), rather than occasional raiders you have to appease or might sometimes redirect.

    Now we just need to make friends with a fortified port/river city too, and we'll have a trio.

    That's interesting? Okay. What do you think it might result in or lead to, if we also picked up some of that value, whatever it is? (Of course, it could also be this guy deciding on a gut instinct to try something new. Still, interesting if true.) Could mean greater cooperation and willingness to ask for help. Could be less confidence/pride/prestige, who knows. Or could just mean more willingness to talk to other peoples. That could be cool too; a sort of explorer who goes out and discovers and talks to new people.


    [X] The Hunters Keep Their Masks - The wolf is a dangerous animal, for it is a demon running wild, but no other earthly beast rivals its prowess. By taking on the demonic aspect before the hunt, the hunters become like the wolves and ensure the greatest hunts of all time as long as they fight like the wolven pack, but may find themselves punished if they fail to give honour to Wolven Dream.

    [X] Aid the Raid - You will send back the gift-givers and potters, and follow the raiders as hunters, to aid in their goal, against payment from the results of the raid. This will cement better relations with the people from the southern Land of the Gods.
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    I'll respond in more detail later, I'm busy writing an update for my own quest, but here's a quick one for both of those. Nomads, even the stereotyped particularly "asshole" tribe, were very rarely always asses throughout the year to everyone. Often those who have familial relation could be found quite peacefully celebrating something or other, or trading. Otherwise, they'd die. And in the current time, settled people aren't much less violent, given that raiding is a thing. A regular one as well. E: Funny thing as well, trade rarely stopped or even dampened when tribes were raiding each other. This is because often Merchants were a totally different social class, and business kept going because the fighting was a matter of honor and raiding exchange between warriors and thus separate.

    As to Lugalkam's value? No real idea honestly. I don't see much need for it in the Kin, they are not yet "old" enough, i.e socially complex enough to really get the intricacies that actually make it work because their hierarchy is pretty uncomplicated. However, their meeting here and now has likely planted a story seed from which a value like it could grow. We'll see.
     
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    [X] The Hunters Keep Their Masks - The wolf is a dangerous animal, for it is a demon running wild, but no other earthly beast rivals its prowess. By taking on the demonic aspect before the hunt, the hunters become like the wolves and ensure the greatest hunts of all time as long as they fight like the wolven pack, but may find themselves punished if they fail to give honour to Wolven Dream.

    [X] Aid the Raid - You will send back the gift-givers and potters, and follow the raiders as hunters, to aid in their goal, against payment from the results of the raid. This will cement better relations with the people from the southern Land of the Gods.
     
    [x] No One Keeps Their Masks - It is unseemly to bear masks and seek to become as spirits beyond the bounds of the rituals. Surely the potters and matrons know well when it is the proper time to become as demons, gods and spirits? To bear them in other situations would be pretense to something greater, and could risk your covenant with all things spiritual.

    [X] Do Not Aid the Raid - You will not aid them, as you do not know them well enough and do not wish risking the lives of the hunters. Participating in the raid cannot be an option, and the payment might not make up for any lives lost.

    We'll be facing dedicated soldiers so that's a no for me. We don't know these people well enough to die for them.
     
    [X] You Keep Your Mask - You have gained the favour of Fox, and it is only best to show it in all ways. Pronounce yourself Great Hunter, and bear the mask of Fox to gain great powers over hunting and trickery to rival the cleverest ancestors. Bear the mask with pride and be empowered, but bear it dishonestly and find yourself punished greatly.

    [X] Aid the Raid - You will send back the gift-givers and potters, and follow the raiders as hunters, to aid in their goal, against payment from the results of the raid. This will cement better relations with the people from the southern Land of the Gods.
     
    [x] No One Keeps Their Masks - It is unseemly to bear masks and seek to become as spirits beyond the bounds of the rituals. Surely the potters and matrons know well when it is the proper time to become as demons, gods and spirits? To bear them in other situations would be pretense to something greater, and could risk your covenant with all things spiritual.

    [X] Do Not Aid the Raid - You will not aid them, as you do not know them well enough and do not wish risking the lives of the hunters. Participating in the raid cannot be an option, and the payment might not make up for any lives lost.
     
    [X] You Keep Your Mask - You have gained the favour of Fox, and it is only best to show it in all ways. Pronounce yourself Great Hunter, and bear the mask of Fox to gain great powers over hunting and trickery to rival the cleverest ancestors. Bear the mask with pride and be empowered, but bear it dishonestly and find yourself punished greatly.

    [X] Aid the Raid - You will send back the gift-givers and potters, and follow the raiders as hunters, to aid in their goal, against payment from the results of the raid. This will cement better relations with the people from the southern Land of the Gods.
     
    [X] The Hunters Keep Their Masks - The wolf is a dangerous animal, for it is a demon running wild, but no other earthly beast rivals its prowess. By taking on the demonic aspect before the hunt, the hunters become like the wolves and ensure the greatest hunts of all time as long as they fight like the wolven pack, but may find themselves punished if they fail to give honour to Wolven Dream.

    [X] Do Not Aid the Raid - You will not aid them, as you do not know them well enough and do not wish risking the lives of the hunters. Participating in the raid cannot be an option, and the payment might not make up for any lives lost.
     
    [X] The Hunters Keep Their Masks - The wolf is a dangerous animal, for it is a demon running wild, but no other earthly beast rivals its prowess. By taking on the demonic aspect before the hunt, the hunters become like the wolves and ensure the greatest hunts of all time as long as they fight like the wolven pack, but may find themselves punished if they fail to give honour to Wolven Dream.

    [X] Aid the Raid - You will send back the gift-givers and potters, and follow the raiders as hunters, to aid in their goal, against payment from the results of the raid. This will cement better relations with the people from the southern Land of the Gods.
     
    [X] The Hunters Keep Their Masks - The wolf is a dangerous animal, for it is a demon running wild, but no other earthly beast rivals its prowess. By taking on the demonic aspect before the hunt, the hunters become like the wolves and ensure the greatest hunts of all time as long as they fight like the wolven pack, but may find themselves punished if they fail to give honour to Wolven Dream.

    [X] Do Not Aid the Raid - You will not aid them, as you do not know them well enough and do not wish risking the lives of the hunters. Participating in the raid cannot be an option, and the payment might not make up for any lives lost.

    ManusDomine said:
    . He's told you a bit about their spirits/gods, and they generally seem to be mean assholes that whimsically decide to turn rivers to flood when people play too loud music or enjoy themselves too much.
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    Click to shrink...
    It is almost as if 'sit down and shutup' and 'no fun allowed' is a critical part of running an early agricultural society.
     
    [x] No One Keeps Their Masks - It is unseemly to bear masks and seek to become as spirits beyond the bounds of the rituals. Surely the potters and matrons know well when it is the proper time to become as demons, gods and spirits? To bear them in other situations would be pretense to something greater, and could risk your covenant with all things spiritual.
     
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