Log Horizon Discussion Thread

He's seen some shit. I gotta credit Deen here for the expression on William's face. Despite the atrocious hair, it does look genuinely pained at recalling the 'lessons' he's learned. The scene itself is subtle and poignant. Death may be cheap in this world but it is hardly consequence free.
I think the change in his hair is part of it, along with the "lines" or stressed taughtness of his face. It helps sell the idea that life has been hard on William since he left the safety of Akiba. Hard enough to make him look more kindly on the man who tried to offer him a place back down South.

This episode was great and made me feel great. The only thing I can fault is that some of the foreshadowing is a bit too transparent, as we saw with I WILL BE IMPORTANT LATER NOTICE ME AS WE PASS BY IN THE STREET DISCRETION SHOT GUY. Marielle and Naotsugu getting some romantic chats in was heavenly. They're an OTP that I will ship for eternity
+1

I like how Naotsugu and Marielle display an authentic sort of waffling. Both of them like each other, both are pretty sure the other likes them too, both are sure that no one in their own or the other's circle of friends would object to the relationship (neither are aware of Wolf Boy's unrequited affections)... but they're both still nervous and shy about it.

But it's a shyness that doesn't result in Tsundere slapstick from either side, and FUCK is that refreshing. There isn't even angry stammering or denials or shifting any blame... all stammering and denials are blushing and cute and "Oh god did I really say that, I'm so embarassed", with any blame for their own embarrassment accepted as their own fault.

Marielle in both seasons, and Tetra in this one, also reveal that Naotsugu is actually shier than he lets on. As Vathra depicts in her Dislocation fanfic, Naotsugu's "Panty Warrior" persona is just that - a mask.

It's part of what makes Naotsugu such a great tank. He plays the clown in order to draw aggro on his own party's mood, even when it means enduring physical punishment. In the aforementioned fanfic, Akatsuki ponders how most tanks, in her experience, are total glory-hounds and attention-fiends, but Naotsugu only draws attention to himself for the good of others rather than for his own self-gratification.

I really, really love how these first two episodes flesh Naotsugu out as Best Tank. He's actually just as intelligent as Shiroe, and possibly as manipulative, but with a completely different focus while remaining just as well-intentioned. You really get the sense that Naotsugu is an experienced veteran who GETS his role and the larger picture which gives his role meaning.

It's not just because the author clearly understands MMOs from experience, but also because the author cares enough to make Naotsugu more than Shiroe's supporting character. Naotsugu is treated like a person and protagonist in his own right, with personal drama separate from Shiroe's own.

Basically, Naotsugu is everything I ever wanted from SAO's Klein, who was a terribly wasted character.

Maybe Nyanta will show us the mindset of the expert DPSer? That's not really Akatsuki's role, as her perspective seems to be "the expert solo'er adapting to guilding and raiding".


I know this was meant to be cute, but double standards rustle all my jimmies. All of them.
Being that this is Log Horizon, I expect future episodes to put Tetra through viewer-cathartic suffering or reveal a sympathy-building backstory.


Even being lifted by the scruff of his neck Shiroe gives less than a negative fuck about Delikas.
Let's be fair and honest; at least part of Shiroe's nonchalance stems from the fact that Demikas CAN'T actually attack him there in town because it will call the Royal Guard down on his head.

If Shiroe really did let Demikas catch him outside the walls, Shiroe knows he'd be Proper Fucked. Monk versus Enchanter isn't good odds for the squishy support class, and Shiroe REALLY doesn't want to die.

You know Democracy is in trouble when even George Washington is glaring at him with contempt.
It took a second reading to really catch this joke.


Beneath the raging, butthurt exterior
Demikas really does come off as pitifully pathetic in this episode. I mean, aside from his anti-social agenda and the fact that he has enough power to really ruin the day.

Just look at how thoroughly he loses confidence when William dismisses his odds of victory. Demikas knows the odds favor him in a duel or ambush (which is exactly the situation he'd try to engineer) and more raid gear is nothing to sneeze at (especially when Shiroe himself has been too busy to raid), but Demikas can't muster the confidence to truly believe that would let him win, in the face of William's confidence that Demikas would just embarrass himself. Again.

Everything about Demikas is a desperate attempt to salvage his self-worth. He's practically crying for help; help that he would just slap away. It's sad.


To be fair, he seems to be okay with William holding a position of authority over him.
Really? Isn't it possible that Demikas is bitterly accepting that he can't do shit about it? Brigandia is weakened, the Silver Swords are stronger, and Demikas either has to knuckle under or leave. But moving to another Adventurer hub would just mean running into MORE combat guilds unwilling to put up with his shit, and a Lander town is less than ideal for a base of operations.

On top of that, Demikas somehow got himself married to a local noble, which further discourages him from leaving.


It was both a sin and a crime that they never even so much as showed us a discretion shot of Demikas getting married or his wife.
Full agreement.

Also, I'm curious about why Demikas wanted to know which of his wife's specialty dishes Shiroe would want more. It's not like Demikas wants to invite Shiroe to dinner, right? Much less introduce him to his wife.


Just because you're a durable DPS type that can spec into tanking does NOT mean you can act like a tank while charging ahead and rushing the group. Healers need mana and constant chain pulling is as bad as not pulling fast enough.
Point of fact, Monks are Tank types that can spec into DPS. But that is almost certainly what Demi-Demi has done, and the rest of your point stands solidly.


That's because he intends to ninja loot.
Or just cause a Total Party Wipe. Remember the season intro features Demiglace apparently abandoning the fight while carrying Shiroe off, possibly to gank him. And we know Shiroe is going to die at least once in the near future.

But if Demikas DID ninja loot, WHAT loot that would be! Literally ALL THE GOLD.

Shiroe's bitter tears (EVERYONE's bitter tears) would surely be sweet. For the short amount of time it takes for Demikas' new regime to fail.


The eternal blessing AND curse of every tank is to keep an eye on the cat herd that is the raid, even if they aren't the raid leader.
I'm sincerely confused and curious: How is that a blessing for the Tank?


Shiroe can't keep a straight face in light of all their antics. The character chemistry between Tetra and Naotsugu is fun and is a nice turnabout in light of his relationship with Akatsuki.
It's nice to see Shiroe the Serious display some undignified LEVITY every once in a while.

But how is Tetra a turnabout compared to Akatsuki? Because Tetra teases right back and thus can (and does) retort with something other than violence? I suppose that's enough, but is there more?

Thus far, Naotsugu seems to give better than he gets with Akatsuki, in terms of teasing. But that may just be because Tetra doesn't flip over the "witty reparte" chess board with a knee to the face. But Naotusgu isn't actually provoking Tetra with the same lewd jokes that set Akatsuki off.

Which might mean Naotsugu deliberately provokes Akatsuki to violence with panty jokes, precisely because it's so easy to set her off and she doesn't have anything but violence to use in response?


Maybe if he'd brought his wife along.
A noblewoman roughing it on a long wilderness trek to a Raid Dungeon? Not implausible, but definitely unlikely, especially if she was someone Demikas chose to kidnap. Also, Landers die when killed, and he apparently doesn't want her dead.


Marielle starts asking about food, specifically the chicken. There's a reason for this. In Japan, fried chicken is considered THE food to have at Christmas. Furthermore, Christmas is considered a holiday for couples and romance, not for family and children. Put this all together and...
Oooh, thanks for the insight!


We haven't seen much of the other characters outside of the main set so far, but that's to be expected considering Log Horizon has loads and loads of characters and just introduced a new primary in the form of Tetra.
This is a strength in that it allows the reader to constantly cycle between the most interesting moments of SOMEONE's life without needing to follow a character who is, for some reason, ALWAYS experiencing the most interesting moment of his life, all of the time, with no time to rest and chill.


The Naotsugu / Regan friendship is a wholy unexpected pleasure. Log Horizon does not disappoint in providing authentically organic interactions between people who do end up interacting with each other by circumstance rather than choice. Or, perhaps, in giving us a window into the lives of the secondary characters interacting with each other while far away from the Main Character?

I get so fucking sick of stories where none of the cast interact with each other outside of the MC's view. Persona 4, you are not excused for this flaw.

Log Horizon is like returning to Final Fantasy 6 after way too many Final Fantasy 7s. A single character doesn't have to struggle to carry the whole fucking game on his shoulders.
 
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Delayed Database this week due to the latest WoW patch. Sue me.

She often refers to herself as Boku, rather than Watashi or Atashi. This means she's either a very tomboyish girl or a somewhat feminine man. All things considered...

Oh? Is the new patch any good?

About Tetra,

she's a G.I.R.L. (Guy In Real Life) who went native...
 
Being that this is Log Horizon, I expect future episodes to put Tetra through viewer-cathartic suffering or reveal a sympathy-building backstory.

I'm 80% certain that Tetra was just teasing Naotsugu with her double standard there. If it actually becomes a thing that happens later though, I'll probably have to hire someone to un-rustle my jimmies.

Demikas really does come off as pitifully pathetic in this episode. I mean, aside from his anti-social agenda and the fact that he has enough power to really ruin the day.

Just look at how thoroughly he loses confidence when William dismisses his odds of victory. Demikas knows the odds favor him in a duel or ambush (which is exactly the situation he'd try to engineer) and more raid gear is nothing to sneeze at (especially when Shiroe himself has been too busy to raid), but Demikas can't muster the confidence to truly believe that would let him win, in the face of William's confidence that Demikas would just embarrass himself. Again.

Everything about Demikas is a desperate attempt to salvage his self-worth. He's practically crying for help; help that he would just slap away. It's sad.

Thing is, I've known people who behaved exactly like this over loot, failing to top the damage meter like they were bragging about, or being such terrible players but being completely in denial about the whole thing.

Really? Isn't it possible that Demikas is bitterly accepting that he can't do shit about it? Brigandia is weakened, the Silver Swords are stronger, and Demikas either has to knuckle under or leave. But moving to another Adventurer hub would just mean running into MORE combat guilds unwilling to put up with his shit, and a Lander town is less than ideal for a base of operations.

On top of that, Demikas somehow got himself married to a local noble, which further discourages him from leaving.

He doesn't have to like something to be okay with it. I don't like my boss, but I'm okay with her. I fucking hate Tony Abbot as prime minister, but I'm okay with it given he did win the election. It might be a bit of wording peculiar to me though.

Full agreement.

Also, I'm curious about why Demikas wanted to know which of his wife's specialty dishes Shiroe would want more. It's not like Demikas wants to invite Shiroe to dinner, right? Much less introduce him to his wife.

I think the implication was that Demikas was going to carve him up to be cooked by his wife to be eaten. Hence, if he'd answered "I like Hamburg Steak", Demikas response would have been "I'm going to grind you up into Hamburg Steak then!".

Point of fact, Monks are Tank types that can spec into DPS. But that is almost certainly what Demi-Demi has done, and the rest of your point stands solidly.

Yeah, I think I recall reading some of the material floating out there that stated he was a DPS specced monk. It means he's a durable DPS type (plate wearing DPS warrior for instance) as opposed to a squishy (cloth wearing mage) and it just stuck in my mind.

Even so, I've had far, far too many plate wearing DPS types in pugs think they can tank when I'm being too slow for their tastes, when I'm really letting the healers mana up or pacing the group for maximum effectiveness.

Or just cause a Total Party Wipe. Remember the season intro features Demiglace apparently abandoning the fight while carrying Shiroe off, possibly to gank him. And we know Shiroe is going to die at least once in the near future.

But if Demikas DID ninja loot, WHAT loot that would be! Literally ALL THE GOLD.

Shiroe's bitter tears (EVERYONE's bitter tears) would surely be sweet. For the short amount of time it takes for Demikas' new regime to fail.

While I do watch the intro, I try not to pay too much attention to it. There's far too many giveaways in it and I definitely want to be surprised. All things considered, I'm too busy enjoying Database to notice these things. :p

Funny things about wiping the raid; once had a pug back in the day that we brought in to fill space for Karazhan back when that was new and exciting. He was extremely excited about getting loot and kept on pointing out the first boss and trying to hurry us all along. He somehow managed to pull Midnight through a wall. This aggroed all the trash and wiped the raid. He then won the roll for the loot (healing plate that none of us really needed) and got it into his head that he was a raider, and the next week he was leading his own raids... to failure. He established quite the reputation as a fail raid leader or a bad luck charm for anyone pugging him. He remains the most memorable raid wiper since he literally went through all the steps in that comic.

As for Demikas ninja looting... when word gets out, he'll get blackballed harder than the cartels that monopolised the grind for High Warlord. Having all the gold won't be worth his while if nobody will do business with him. Then again, that much money is probably going to make a lot of people look the other way.

I'm sincerely confused and curious: How is that a blessing for the Tank?

Highly dependent on who you're raiding with, but coordinating the group can be very rewarding. It can turn a good raid into a great one, or ensure a level of success far greater than your party could manage with gear and skill alone. Back in Burning Crusade, I managed to lead a raid (I was both raid leader and main tank) composed of half guildies with a few epics and half pugs in blues and greens. We downed not only Prince Malchezzar but the Legions HE commands that night. It was one of Those Raids that you never really forget because everything came together, everyone worked well, and even the disastrous shenanigans that would normally break a raid somehow got turned around. It was magical.

But how is Tetra a turnabout compared to Akatsuki? Because Tetra teases right back and thus can (and does) retort with something other than violence? I suppose that's enough, but is there more?

Thus far, Naotsugu seems to give better than he gets with Akatsuki, in terms of teasing. But that may just be because Tetra doesn't flip over the "witty reparte" chess board with a knee to the face. But Naotusgu isn't actually provoking Tetra with the same lewd jokes that set Akatsuki off.

Which might mean Naotsugu deliberately provokes Akatsuki to violence with panty jokes, precisely because it's so easy to set her off and she doesn't have anything but violence to use in response?

As Naotsugu is to Akatsuki, Tetra is to Naotsugu. Naotsugu is usually the one teasing or provoking Akatsuki with his antics, whereas here Tetra is the one teasing and provoking Naotsugu with her antics. The particulars may vary somewhat but the dynamics are similar.

A noblewoman roughing it on a long wilderness trek to a Raid Dungeon? Not implausible, but definitely unlikely, especially if she was someone Demikas chose to kidnap. Also, Landers die when killed, and he apparently doesn't want her dead.

That was mostly in jest, the implication being that his wife would be able to mellow him out... or give him The Look that shuts him up and makes him say "Yes Dear". I haven't read anything about his wife, but I have ready some hearsay that proclaims her to be a massive badass and a sweetie in her own right... something she'd need to be to tame Demikas into marriage, given his prior relationship with Landers.

I get so fucking sick of stories where none of the cast interact with each other outside of the MC's view. Persona 4, you are not excused for this flaw.

Log Horizon is like returning to Final Fantasy 6 after way too many Final Fantasy 7s. A single character doesn't have to struggle to carry the whole fucking game on his shoulders.

I'm coming from a slightly different direction myself. I make it no secret that I play World of Warcraft. Oftentimes, you'll get a very generic "<NPCName> and a party of heroes vanquished the foe!" reference to things like killing the Lich King, or slaying an Old God, or cutting the head off of a dragon that tried to blow up the world for shits and giggles.

Elder Tale though... it seems that player interactions from the game were adopted organically into the world itself. I understand the difficulty of trying to say with a straight face that "Xxl33tg4m3rzzzzzxX valiantly slew the Lich King!". Players are forced to be significant and important force in the world while being made to be as generic as possible.

Granted, there are huge differences between WoW and ET. ET used Half Gaia, meaning that even without expansions, there are likely quests in the world that nobody has ever done, whereas the entirety of the WoW universe thus far could fit inside Rhode Island.

I also kind of head canon that the devs of ET were cool guys. If they saw a player pulling say, a reckoning bomb, they'd hotfix it like any responsible developer would, but they'd fold that right up into the lore of the game and give the player a special title or suchlike for being such an ingenious bastard.

I suppose in a way, I'm kind of sick of playing MMO's where I'm told that I matter, but not really. It's something I'm okay with (not that I like it :p) since Blizzard does good work, especially since their patches are what some would consider expansions and expansions amount to a whole new game. Elder Tale, or at the very least, Log Horizon's depiction, is the fantasy that I'd like to play out as an MMO'er. Being drawn into the world, making a difference or just doing your own thing, being heroic and mattering to the world in a way that just can't happen in real life.

The wide cast I feel lends credence to the notion that everyone has their story and everyone matters. They're not faceless murderhobo's. They're people that matter, even Demikas, the ostensible first boss and all around bad guy from last season, gets his own story and matters in his own way.

You can tell that I've read Dislocation again recently. :p

Also, agreed that Klein was a massive waste of potential. He was such a damn cool guy and instead we have all Kirito all the time. Still, best to leave that lie as a SAO vs LH argument isn't what we need in this thread... though seeing a crossover would be fun.

Oh? Is the new patch any good?

About Tetra,

she's a G.I.R.L. (Guy In Real Life) who went native...

The new patch is as buggy as all new patches are. Blizz will get them ironed out in the end.

Item squish is really odd. As a tank, I went from almost 600,000 HP to a scant 80,000, and most gear has Burning Crusade levels of double digit stats on them.

The Iron Horde invasion is extremely meh. A small ass quest chain that gives you some WoD level blues, and an 'invasion' that doesn't go beyond the blasted lands. Meh. Meh. The Scourge invasion was better by far. The Corrupted Blood plague was more epic. Death Wing burning Azeroth to cinders was more exciting.

There's a new five man instance, but I want to hit it on my DPS toons before I tank it to get a feel for the place, and for that I need to gear up due to a bug that locks you out if you have an iLvl below 510. My rogue is 504, so it's grind baby grind and pray for some luck on drops.

Lots of abilities got pruned. Streamlining mostly, but I'm kind of miffed that my prot pally can no longer get his wings of vengeance and make with the smiting. It also feels a bit odd, as she now feels a lot more squishy than she used to be despite her gear not changing beyond item squish.

Old raids are easily soloable now. Trash that used to take me a minute to bash down now takes seconds. Most bosses are dead in under three minutes. Granted, most old raids were easy, but the changes make it ludicrously easy to do. I'm fairly certain I can solo Sunwell now, whereas that was impossible before, Prot Pally DPS being something of a paper tiger without Vengeance buffing it (now replaced with Resolve, which only buffs defensive abilities, not DPS). Emphasis on this being old raids. Current raids are unaffected.

The new models are pretty good, but has mixed popularity. Not that this affects me much as I tend to play Blood Elf toons and they got passed over because their models along with any of the other expansion races were always better than the classic races. Opinions tend to vary between "Omg I love you blizz!" to "RUINED! FOREVER!" and the eternal "I QUIT!" followed by the equally eternal "Can I have your stuff?".

Levelling is easier. A lot of my toons that were only half or a quarter of the way to their next level now find themselves a single XP point shy from dinging. At least, it looks that way, as I've been too busy grinding for gear on my rogue and managing dailies on my pally rather than levelling toons I'm not really interested in beyond profession mules.

There's a lot of quality of life upgrades and hundreds of changes, more than I care to get into really. My only complaint is that Blizzard let this one out of the gate a little buggier than usual and that the Iron Horde invasion is eyerollingly, pathetically small and insignificant to the world. You can literally ignore it, which being a pre-expansion invasion, is not really a thing that should ever happen.

And regarding Tetra...

I've seen the spoilers being flung hither and thither about on the internet, so I kind of knew, but in the context of recaps and threadly discussion, I'm excising that knowledge and operating from a point of deliberate ignorance... or trying to at least.

On that note: You monster, you missed the perfect opportunity for a Princess Bride reference.

It's been a while since I last watched the Princess Bride (something I should rectify, I know), but where could I have slotted one in? I'm drawing a serious blank there.
 
Episode 3:
3 weeks into a raid, and they're not done yet. That'd be 42 hours if it was still a game. Elder Tale raids are apparently really hardcore.

I'm slightly disappointed with how they portrayed Tetra in battle. This part of the novel pointed out that she was actually a pretty good healer, but I don't think the anime managed to show it very well. It'd probably have been better if they showed how her healing was making a difference in the battle, instead of just having her heal a few people who didn't seem to be fighting. Or have people comment on it, like they did with Demikas.
 
The new patch is as buggy as all new patches are. Blizz will get them ironed out in the end.

Item squish is really odd. As a tank, I went from almost 600,000 HP to a scant 80,000, and most gear has Burning Crusade levels of double digit stats on them.

The Iron Horde invasion is extremely meh. A small ass quest chain that gives you some WoD level blues, and an 'invasion' that doesn't go beyond the blasted lands. Meh. Meh. The Scourge invasion was better by far. The Corrupted Blood plague was more epic. Death Wing burning Azeroth to cinders was more exciting.

There's a new five man instance, but I want to hit it on my DPS toons before I tank it to get a feel for the place, and for that I need to gear up due to a bug that locks you out if you have an iLvl below 510. My rogue is 504, so it's grind baby grind and pray for some luck on drops.

Lots of abilities got pruned. Streamlining mostly, but I'm kind of miffed that my prot pally can no longer get his wings of vengeance and make with the smiting. It also feels a bit odd, as she now feels a lot more squishy than she used to be despite her gear not changing beyond item squish.

Old raids are easily soloable now. Trash that used to take me a minute to bash down now takes seconds. Most bosses are dead in under three minutes. Granted, most old raids were easy, but the changes make it ludicrously easy to do. I'm fairly certain I can solo Sunwell now, whereas that was impossible before, Prot Pally DPS being something of a paper tiger without Vengeance buffing it (now replaced with Resolve, which only buffs defensive abilities, not DPS). Emphasis on this being old raids. Current raids are unaffected.

I'll give it a shot, I suppose. I dropped the game because I got a full time job, but now the job is gone and I need something to occupy my days again. And WoW is pretty much the only MMO where I've ever seriously managed to get into the group activities. Also solo raiding is fun and profitable - I could clear everyting up to level 80 except Ulduar (haven't figured out the trick to Yogg yet) and Icecrown (freaking lootship. And the sleeping dragon will be kind of difficult, without healing abilities...) before - and have done so in one sitting on occasion. That was real fun. :)

Episode 3:
3 weeks into a raid, and they're not done yet. That'd be 42 hours if it was still a game. Elder Tale raids are apparently really hardcore.

I'm slightly disappointed with how they portrayed Tetra in battle. This part of the novel pointed out that she was actually a pretty good healer, but I don't think the anime managed to show it very well. It'd probably have been better if they showed how her healing was making a difference in the battle, instead of just having her heal a few people who didn't seem to be fighting. Or have people comment on it, like they did with Demikas.

I liked how they went into how frontline raiding actually works, though being in the same raid for three weeks is a little overkill. Most people only get to see the raids after the frontliners have the tactics worked out and everyone knows what to do already, and have never experienced the whole mystery of "what will this boss do when we get him to 50%", or "what do you think the next boss will be like". Also... shouldn't wandering around for a week without finding the next boss clue them in that something is wrong here? Because bosses are never difficult to find, they're not that far apart.

Unless they're wandering around...:o
 
Just from the intro, I'm wondering if Tetra/Naotsugu dynamic isn't more like Medic/Heavy.

"Tetra! Is this safe?"
"I have NO IDEA!"

Or maybe that's just because Naotsugu/Marielle OTP so hard, and Tank/Healer is the dynamic comedy duo of Gaming.
 
While I do watch the intro, I try not to pay too much attention to it. There's far too many giveaways in it and I definitely want to be surprised. All things considered, I'm too busy enjoying Database to notice these things. :p
Yeah, I regret bringing it up, because I'd also rather ignore it, and resent that they loaded all that crap into the first episode.


As for Demikas ninja looting... when word gets out, he'll get blackballed harder than the cartels that monopolised the grind for High Warlord. Having all the gold won't be worth his while if nobody will do business with him. Then again, that much money is probably going to make a lot of people look the other way.
Like I said, Demikas will get to enjoy a new regime for a short while before it all collapses around his head. He doesn't have the chops to hold onto real power.


Highly dependent on who you're raiding with, but coordinating the group can be very rewarding. It can turn a good raid into a great one, or ensure a level of success far greater than your party could manage with gear and skill alone. Back in Burning Crusade, I managed to lead a raid (I was both raid leader and main tank) composed of half guildies with a few epics and half pugs in blues and greens. We downed not only Prince Malchezzar but the Legions HE commands that night. It was one of Those Raids that you never really forget because everything came together, everyone worked well, and even the disastrous shenanigans that would normally break a raid somehow got turned around. It was magical.
I regret not getting into the social aspect of WoW, though I had various good reasons.

But I won't return to WoW because of various good reasons, so I may never experience that kind of teamwork gameplay.


As Naotsugu is to Akatsuki, Tetra is to Naotsugu. Naotsugu is usually the one teasing or provoking Akatsuki with his antics, whereas here Tetra is the one teasing and provoking Naotsugu with her antics. The particulars may vary somewhat but the dynamics are similar.
My view is blinded by the gender-biased humor. Akatsuki knees Naotsugu in the face, and Tetra practically molests him when she's not running off with his sword-and-board. If Naotsugu tried anything like that with them, it would be "wrong" because he's a guy.


I also kind of head canon that the devs of ET were cool guys. If they saw a player pulling say, a reckoning bomb, they'd hotfix it like any responsible developer would, but they'd fold that right up into the lore of the game and give the player a special title or suchlike for being such an ingenious bastard.
Oh, that IS cool.


Elder Tale, or at the very least, Log Horizon's depiction, is the fantasy that I'd like to play out as an MMO'er. Being drawn into the world, making a difference or just doing your own thing, being heroic and mattering to the world in a way that just can't happen in real life.
This reminds me of a conversation I had with Aleph, regarding character agency.

I never did hear back from Aleph about whether she watched Log Horizon to gain an opinion on Shiroe's actions.

I don't think the two of you are in disagreement, but you two seem to be approaching an issue from opposite perspectives (and different contexts), and I'd like to see that debate.


The wide cast I feel lends credence to the notion that everyone has their story and everyone matters.
Unlike certain other animes, which are merely altars for author avatar worship.


You can tell that I've read Dislocation again recently. :p
I'm hoping for new chapters, now that the second season's begun.


Also, agreed that Klein was a massive waste of potential. He was such a damn cool guy and instead we have all Kirito all the time. Still, best to leave that lie as a SAO vs LH argument isn't what we need in this thread... though seeing a crossover would be fun.
I've contemplated the possibilities of a SAO / Log Horizon crossover.

The major problem is Asuna, who probably only tried out Sword Art Online because Full Immersion VR is crazy interesting, whereas a flat screen, third-person WRPG is much less initially immersive and intuitive. Also, she would be a total Level 1 newbie at the time of the Disaster, which is even worse than Tohya and Minori, whereas Kirito would likely be a veteran Level 90'er.

Kirito would be the same class combination as Akatsuki, but I imagine he actually did join raids... and earned a black reputation as a ninja looter, which means all of the serious guild-based raiders know to exclude him.

Klein obviously belongs to the Samurai tank class, but I'm not up to putting flesh on the bare bones of his guildies, which a Log Horizon crossover is OBLIGATED to do. Unless Klein was somehow the only one logged in when the Disaster struck, leaving him guildless and thus available to form a new guild with Kirito and Asuna?


It's been a while since I last watched the Princess Bride (something I should rectify, I know), but where could I have slotted one in? I'm drawing a serious blank there.
Me too.

Oh! Regan should have said some variation of "Have fun storming the castle!"
 
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Kirito would be the same class combination as Akatsuki, but I imagine he actually did join raids... and earned a black reputation as a ninja looter, which means all of the serious guild-based raiders know to exclude him.
I don't think the Last Attack really correlates to ninja looting.

Last Attack bonus is a competition of seeing into the future and figuring out when to jump in to hit the finishing blow. Ninja looting is being an enormous asshole that gets you put on black lists.
 
This reminds me of a conversation I had with Aleph, regarding character agency.

I never did hear back from Aleph about whether she watched Log Horizon to gain an opinion on Shiroe's actions.

I don't think the two of you are in disagreement, but you two seem to be approaching an issue from opposite perspectives (and different contexts), and I'd like to see that debate.

You're right, we do seem to be coming from opposite directions, though I doubt there's going to be any serious disagreement between us. Log Horizon's balance of freedom and responsibility of the individual seems spot on, it doesn't over aggrandise the individual but it doesn't belittle it either, whilst also maintaining a healthy respect towards government oversight and lawful rule without impinging on civil liberties. Extremes of both are evident in the work itself, with Susukino under Demikas rule being a Randroid lolbertopian nightmare, whilst Plant Hwyden to the south plays up the dictatorial regime. Akiba sits, literally, symbolically, and politically smack bang between the two as I see it.

I'm hoping for new chapters, now that the second season's begun.

Yes, my one and only complaint about that fic is that there's not enough of it.

I've contemplated the possibilities of a SAO / Log Horizon crossover.

The major problem is Asuna, who probably only tried out Sword Art Online because Full Immersion VR is crazy interesting, whereas a flat screen, third-person WRPG is much less initially immersive and intuitive. Also, she would be a total Level 1 newbie at the time of the Disaster, which is even worse than Tohya and Minori, whereas Kirito would likely be a veteran Level 90'er.

Kirito would be the same class combination as Akatsuki, but I imagine he actually did join raids... and earned a black reputation as a ninja looter, which means all of the serious guild-based raiders know to exclude him.

Klein obviously belongs to the Samurai tank class, but I'm not up to putting flesh on the bare bones of his guildies, which a Log Horizon crossover is OBLIGATED to do. Unless Klein was somehow the only one logged in when the Disaster struck, leaving him guildless and thus available to form a new guild with Kirito and Asuna?

That's an easy fix. Say that the expansion was introducing a VR engine and ten thousand players in Japan were offered a free full dive system as part of a promotion, the rest could either upgrade or stick with their usual 2D interfaces. Kirito thought Elder Tale was an old mans game but got turned around by the VR aspect, while Asuna gets roped in by a friend, a known character... Henrietta perhaps?

This leads to some delicious confusion, as you've got one group of people who think it's part of the full dive system, and the other who have to convince them that no, Elder Tale is real now, they were totally on their computer before they went //poof\\.

If Kirito does have a history with Elder Tale, I imagine any bad reputation he gets comes from winning loot rolls legitimately rather than through ninja. Jealousy is a thing, as is resentment when some filthy casual wins your fucking loot.

Klein I imagine being bro's with Soujirou, if a bit jealous of all the ladies that Souji picks up.

Asuna would probably be the Swashbuckler to Kirito's Assassin. Depending on how far one wants to branch out to SAO's secondary characters, Sachi would probably wind up as a cleric, Lisbeth as a monk, Silica as a bard, Argo as an enchanter, Agil as a damage specced Samurai or Guardian, with Yui being any flavour of caster you can care to name. Branching out further, Sinon could be a range specced Assassin, and from there my knowledge of SAO fails me as I'm only as far in as the anime and my memory of the first season is spotty at this point.

I don't think the Last Attack really correlates to ninja looting.

Last Attack bonus is a competition of seeing into the future and figuring out when to jump in to hit the finishing blow. Ninja looting is being an enormous asshole that gets you put on black lists.

Last Attack bonus is a shitty system in any case that actively kills teamwork and circumvents any agreed upon looting rules that the group has decided on, which more or less makes it ninja looting by other means.

Resenting the winner of a roll because he took your loot though, even if you won it 100% legitimately, that's all too human. If it gets too bad it gets to be a case of "If That Guy is in the raid, me and my buddies aren't coming," and it all comes to that terrible calculus of who to bring and who to bench for the good of the raid.
 
Asuna would probably be the Swashbuckler to Kirito's Assassin. Depending on how far one wants to branch out to SAO's secondary characters, Sachi would probably wind up as a cleric, Lisbeth as a monk, Silica as a bard, Argo as an enchanter, Agil as a damage specced Samurai or Guardian, with Yui being any flavour of caster you can care to name. Branching out further, Sinon could be a range specced Assassin, and from there my knowledge of SAO fails me as I'm only as far in as the anime and my memory of the first season is spotty at this point.
We need Silica to be a summoner so Pina can show up.
 
You're right, we do seem to be coming from opposite directions, though I doubt there's going to be any serious disagreement between us. Log Horizon's balance of freedom and responsibility of the individual seems spot on, it doesn't over aggrandise the individual but it doesn't belittle it either, whilst also maintaining a healthy respect towards government oversight and lawful rule without impinging on civil liberties. Extremes of both are evident in the work itself, with Susukino under Demikas rule being a Randroid lolbertopian nightmare, whilst Plant Hwyden to the south plays up the dictatorial regime. Akiba sits, literally, symbolically, and politically smack bang between the two as I see it.
In which case, narratively it's a shame that Demikas wasn't as competent as Nureha, thus collapsing one of Akiba/Shiroe's foils before "Akiba" as a political entity even exists.


That's an easy fix. Say that the expansion was introducing a VR engine and ten thousand players in Japan were offered a free full dive system as part of a promotion, the rest could either upgrade or stick with their usual 2D interfaces. Kirito thought Elder Tale was an old mans game but got turned around by the VR aspect, while Asuna gets roped in by a friend, a known character... Henrietta perhaps?

This leads to some delicious confusion, as you've got one group of people who think it's part of the full dive system, and the other who have to convince them that no, Elder Tale is real now, they were totally on their computer before they went //poof\\.
Hey, that sounds really cool AND feasible. Kirito's family is financially well-off enough that he could plausibly spring for a NervGear, whereas Klein and his friends (of a slightly older generation and with more modest financial means) have likely been playing Elder Tales for a while now.


Asuna would probably be the Swashbuckler to Kirito's Assassin. Depending on how far one wants to branch out to SAO's secondary characters, Sachi would probably wind up as a cleric, Lisbeth as a monk, Silica as a bard, Argo as an enchanter, Agil as a damage specced Samurai or Guardian, with Yui being any flavour of caster you can care to name. Branching out further, Sinon could be a range specced Assassin, and from there my knowledge of SAO fails me as I'm only as far in as the anime and my memory of the first season is spotty at this point.
I agree that Asuna would be a Swashbuckler, using a hither-to-unseen single-weapon specialization purposed entirely around what Nyanta showed us -- quick, stinging attacks that don't inflict much damage, but which cripple the victims and thus set up opportunities for riskier, more devastating strikes. Asuna would likely supplement her tactics with an Acrobat or Athlete subclass that lets her "Flash" into melee range for the first strike, then dance and flip around the enemy to avoid reprisal while she exploits the debuff inflicted by her opening attack.

It's not very good for dealing with multiple opponents at once, though, so she has to focus on killing them one at a time as quickly as possible, using her agility to survive until the numbers become more favorable.

Nyanta likely favors a balance between the Swashbuckler's melee/duelist potentials, where I guess that the Wolf Boy of Crescent Moon, with his heavier swords, focuses purely on the melee spec while making the crippling debuffs his "dump stat".

If Kirito is also a Swashbuckler, he might being doing what I think Wolf Boy is doing; using two heavier swords for as much sustained DPS as possible for the class. But odds are good that he's a dual-wielding melee Assassin.


However, I think Liz would be a Guardian, and not just for her preferred combat gear (mace, shield, metal armor). Because her Subclass would obviously be Blacksmith (if not Swordsmith), the Guardian class would allow her to equip almost any melee and the heaviest of armor, allowing her to equip and personally display her wares in actual combat. A good form of free advertisement, yes?

On the opposite side, I could see Agil rolling a Monk, which is the least gear-dependent Tank class. As someone who identifies more strongly with his Merchant subclass, being a Monk allows him to save on personal gear costs, allowing him to channel that money towards business expenses. In Sword Art Online, the bare handed Skill was only available upon completing a secret quest on the Second Floor (which took them three months to reach), and we never really saw that Kirito or Argo shared that information with anyone, so Agil was naturally forced to use a hand-held weapon like a great axe.

Suguha (using a trial account she pested Kirito for) might have rolled a Samurai because of kendo, and later supplemented that with a "combat priest" healing subclass or something.


We need Silica to be a summoner so Pina can show up.
Druids also have some form of summoned pets. But there's also a Beast Tamer subclass that would let Silica be practically anything, since she found Pina and doesn't use magic to summon her or keep her around.

While Silica's highly leveled Musical Performance skill never came up in SAO, don't forget that she was a highly agile knife-fighter. For emphasis, Silica knife-fights monsters to the death. Truly "to the death", since her own life was at stake. And she was 12 years old, in a game that would have let her ignore her size by dumping points into Strength, Shields, Spears and Heavy Armor.

The Bard is one of the "Weapon Specialist" DPS classes, so with that she could be an agile knife-fighter who uses Music Magic to buff her allies and her Beast Tamed pet.
 
In which case, narratively it's a shame that Demikas wasn't as competent as Nureha, thus collapsing one of Akiba/Shiroe's foils before "Akiba" as a political entity even exists.



Hey, that sounds really cool AND feasible. Kirito's family is financially well-off enough that he could plausibly spring for a NervGear, whereas Klein and his friends (of a slightly older generation and with more modest financial means) have likely been playing Elder Tales for a while now.



I agree that Asuna would be a Swashbuckler, using a hither-to-unseen single-weapon specialization purposed entirely around what Nyanta showed us -- quick, stinging attacks that don't inflict much damage, but which cripple the victims and thus set up opportunities for riskier, more devastating strikes. Asuna would likely supplement her tactics with an Acrobat or Athlete subclass that lets her "Flash" into melee range for the first strike, then dance and flip around the enemy to avoid reprisal while she exploits the debuff inflicted by her opening attack.

It's not very good for dealing with multiple opponents at once, though, so she has to focus on killing them one at a time as quickly as possible, using her agility to survive until the numbers become more favorable.

Nyanta likely favors a balance between the Swashbuckler's melee/duelist potentials, where I guess that the Wolf Boy of Crescent Moon, with his heavier swords, focuses purely on the melee spec while making the crippling debuffs his "dump stat".

If Kirito is also a Swashbuckler, he might being doing what I think Wolf Boy is doing; using two heavier swords for as much sustained DPS as possible for the class. But odds are good that he's a dual-wielding melee Assassin.


However, I think Liz would be a Guardian, and not just for her preferred combat gear (mace, shield, metal armor). Because her Subclass would obviously be Blacksmith (if not Swordsmith), the Guardian class would allow her to equip almost any melee and the heaviest of armor, allowing her to equip and personally display her wares in actual combat. A good form of free advertisement, yes?

On the opposite side, I could see Agil rolling a Monk, which is the least gear-dependent Tank class. As someone who identifies more strongly with his Merchant subclass, being a Monk allows him to save on personal gear costs, allowing him to channel that money towards business expenses. In Sword Art Online, the bare handed Skill was only available upon completing a secret quest on the Second Floor (which took them three months to reach), and we never really saw that Kirito or Argo shared that information with anyone, so Agil was naturally forced to use a hand-held weapon like a great axe.

Suguha (using a trial account she pested Kirito for) might have rolled a Samurai because of kendo, and later supplemented that with a "combat priest" healing subclass or something.



Druids also have some form of summoned pets. But there's also a Beast Tamer subclass that would let Silica be practically anything, since she found Pina and doesn't use magic to summon her or keep her around.

While Silica's highly leveled Musical Performance skill never came up in SAO, don't forget that she was a highly agile knife-fighter. For emphasis, Silica knife-fights monsters to the death. Truly "to the death", since her own life was at stake. And she was 12 years old, in a game that would have let her ignore her size by dumping points into Strength, Shields, Spears and Heavy Armor.

The Bard is one of the "Weapon Specialist" DPS classes, so with that she could be an agile knife-fighter who uses Music Magic to buff her allies and her Beast Tamed pet.

I liked this post but I don't understand, how would using only one sword make Asuna a better duelist compared to the dual blades? I mean maybe if Asuna has real life rapier knowledge I could see that helping, but if she is learning everything anyway and only has whatever moves Elder Tales gives her for her strong attacks then I would imagine it would be better to double up like every other swashbuckler we've seen. After all, double the weapons double the stats.
 
I liked this post but I don't understand, how would using only one sword make Asuna a better duelist compared to the dual blades? I mean maybe if Asuna has real life rapier knowledge I could see that helping, but if she is learning everything anyway and only has whatever moves Elder Tales gives her for her strong attacks then I would imagine it would be better to double up like every other swashbuckler we've seen. After all, double the weapons double the stats.
There are some Swashbuckler skills that apparently are for single blade only. From what I understand the dual blade builds have less damage per hit but can deal more attacks.

Single blade builds on the other hand seem to have fewer attacks per second but can do more damage per hit.
 
Fun thing I found on the site was the sample build described for a Monk.

Apparently unlike the Guardian style aggro (sit there and take all the hits like a boss) this build bounces around the battlefield, taunting all the enemies and leading them around the proverbial mulberry bush while keeping out of reach with high evasion and speed.
 
Fucking Crunchyroll!

I can never watch an episode of anything on that site without bouts of lag. I never had this problem with an unmentionable viewing site that didn't charge me any money, so why is Crunchyroll demanding money to provide worse service?!
 
Argo as an enchanter
I dunno.

Obviously, SAO's limited, magic-less options don't help to show us what ET Class Argo would pick. I can't say that she'd be a Monk because she tried to unlock the secret Martial Arts skill, or because after failing and giving up on it, she chose to use claw weapons in a sword game.

But she DID use an extremely short-range weapon like claws. I think she's also supposed to be a cross-country traveler and Solo Player, scaling mountains with a leveled up Climbing Skill, and probably hunting down secret places with Hiding and Detection skills.

As an Info Broker, she couldn't stay in business without seeking out information no one else knew, and she would have to do it alone so that no one else would require hush money.

Even without getting an invaluable look into her day-to-day Aincrad Life (here's hoping for Progressive), I feel comfortable in assuming that Argo is a Monk/Tracker or Assassin/Tracker who specializes in getting into and out of dangerous places alive, on her own. A mercenary scout and spy.

That would be HARD to do as an Enchanter. If she wanted to play a squishy, she would need to be more of a spymaster who lets OTHER people do the dangerous legwork.
 
Tracker would definitely be her subclass, either way. Stealth AND finding stuff? It's a no brainer.
 
...
Decided to post something that irks me. "Lose memories of the real world"? Ugh, whut?
1. World they are in now is no less real now. Memories of Earth would be more correct...
2. While still incorrect. They lose memories, not "memories of ...". It just everybody have much more memories of Earth so main damage goes to that part of Psyche, but there is no difference between chances to lose each particular memory whether it's of Earth or made after Apocalypse.
2A. So for example while dying Akatsuki can as easily lose memory of Shiroe giving her potion or how she realized that she love him as she would lose memory of buying pair of socks... it just there are millions of irrelevant memories to fill the roulette of memory damage so ball hits mostly them, but sooner or later it will hit something precious. Memory damage just looks minor as it hit minor things, but it's really scary actually.
 
Fucking Crunchyroll!

I can never watch an episode of anything on that site without bouts of lag. I never had this problem with an unmentionable viewing site that didn't charge me any money, so why is Crunchyroll demanding money to provide worse service?!
I find their smartphone/pad app works a lot better than their site.
 
Could someone give me a rundown of why Log Horizon is a good anime? Are the LN better than the anime? I want to know a bit more about it before I watch it.
 
1. The music is quite good. The OP in particularly is a bit of a favorite.

2. The animation is good, clear and flows. (A few differences between seasons unfortunately as the animation company changed)

3. The characterisation is strong and multi-faceted. It's believable these people know each other and get along (or not). Not bad going with such a large cast.

4. The plot is well thought out and escalates smoothly, if not especially fast.

5. The execution of the plot is good: you can see plans coming together but unless you're quite cunning you may not put the pieces together until they're on screen. This is helped by the protagonist being a master strategist not a master warrior - he thinks his way through problems, rather than hacking them together. And yet, giving everyone a fair shot, even he doesn't solve everything.
 
Delayed and late Database this week due to various shenanigans earlier in the week and the release of Civlization Beyond Earth a couple of days ago. Will work on the latest episodes recap tomorrow since I have the day off, and if I'm feeling really good about things, maybe even the Kill la Kill Ep 25 recap, or at the very least, getting it together.



Ah, they have flags.



The raid arrived just the other day,
Damaged the boss in the usual way,
But there were gryphons to catch,
Repair bills to pay,
They downed the boss while I was afk...



Ten percent on the first go is ridiculously good. Bear in mind that none of the players are max level yet, and they're raiding in an (I assume) max level dungeon tuned for level 100 players. And not just raiding. Progression raiding. Burning down 10% on the first go is ludicrously good when you consider how underleveled they are.



And he sits at the end of a long straight path that you need to charge down. Have fun storming the raid boss!



If you dropped FatCat McLargeandInCharge that I've seen in the background, quite possibly years.



You know, I think I kinda get Tetra. She sees that the conversation just got serious, so she throws in a little banter to lighten the mood.



Being Reynesia is suffering, much to Marielle and Henrietta's delight and... Wait a second. You there in the lower left corner. How the HELL are you that small? Are you a gnome? Tell me you're a gnome. If you tell me you're a gnome, then I can punt you without fear or regret.



D'awwww. PK party, you're the background characters I've come to love. You're always going from job to job, taking every opportunity as it comes, in this case running a fried chicken stand at the time of year it sells best in Japan, and then you start pulling my heartstrings like that.

In most other anime, the PK party would be forgotten as the two bit villains they were introduced as. Here, they've had these quiet little background pieces that, while not really fleshing them out as characters per se, definitely flesh them out as human beings in their own right. Katsuo missing his family followed by the elf girl declaring that they have each other is both good story telling in that it highlights that everyone is missing their families terribly and also furthers their humanisation.

If you'll now excuse me, I think I have something in my eye.



Raiding for spell rankings? Oh boy that's gotta be about as fun as a face in the frying pan. On the other hand, I get the feeling that Scrub Horizon is getting their first quest flag on a journey to gitting gud.



Evil!Santa as a raid boss? Wait, no... no I've seen you before... YOU! IT WAS YOU IN THAT FATEFUL PASSINGEACHOTHERBYINTHESTREETSCENE! HOW COULD I NOT HAVE SEEN THIS COMING!?

For the rest of the recap, head over to Imgur.

I liked this episode. My only complaint is that when it ended I nearly upended my chair and screamed "What?! That's it! No! I wanted more! MOAAAAAAR!". It really did fly by quickly, which is probably the kind of problem you want, since wondering when it fucking ends is the problem you don't want. It's also a bit surprising, because a lot of this episode was essentially infodumping about raids, new class skills and the like. There were character and world building moments interspersed throughout so it didn't get stale, but there was a lot of setup here, which will probably have an effect in the next episode which I should be getting to watching presently.

After I've had a few more turns in Beyond Earth...
 
Without dropping spoilers I'd have preferred a more even split between Akiba and raid events in this episode and this week's.
 
Wait a second. You there in the lower left corner. How the HELL are you that small? Are you a gnome? Tell me you're a gnome. If you tell me you're a gnome, then I can punt you without fear or regret.
I think that is a summon or something. Checking the summoner's info page comes up with this:

Mystic Summon: Brownie
Mystic Summon. Calls forth a caring fairy that helps with item production tasks. Grants bonuses such as increased success rate, increased production speed, increased production rate, etc. After the Apocalypse, people had to do things such as cleaning. Brownie became a beloved friend of lazy Summoners. As proficiency level increases, Brownie's family grows.

So there are humanoid summons other then the cosplaying undines.
 
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