Lieutenant General Gundam

Just yesterday I wrote a one thousand word response to you that did include 'actual details,' as I have done numerous times in the past. I have exerted considerable efforts over the years to respond to your assertions with extensive arguments based on a variety of forms of evidence, which is clearly evidenced in those many posts. You may not agree that I have. That's fine. But I have.
You mean sniping my response to claude with wordswordswords about not-what-claude-and-I-were-arguing-about, I presume?

yes, it's a lovely essay you wrote that has some points in it. never mind the points are unconnected to what was a reply to someone else's different points and are functionally a giant strawman.

Again, I await a rebuttal. Not a rant on "here, let me snip some things you say out of context and paint you as a giant idiot by expounding on why (stuff you didn't actually argue against in the quoted post) is obviously correct."



My actual point was here:
Watsonianly speaking, "the new revival series keep giving your (supposedly fringe ideology [1]) major characters as mouthpieces and you keep getting most of the cool new designs" is exactly what 'ideological success and prominence' looks like.

the South may have lost the US civil war, but Jim Crow sure won the subsequent peace for quite a long time.

Zeon should be dead. It should be discredited. It's UC years-after-CCA. But they keep coming back to this well and that's both bad culture and bad writing. Nothing about Hathaway's Flash (from the extended summary I read of the novel) requires bringing up Char Azanble as a positive role model. Char as depicted in CCA would say he's not a legacy to want or emulate.

And yet it's in the fucking trailer.

Zeon is the iconography and ideology that just wont stop being brought up in a positive light (hello Marida and the space chapel) 40 RL years after they were explicitly presented as the faction that genocided half of all humanity.

Yes, they are ultimately presented as the bad guys, but it's still bad civ, because Neo-Nazis un-ironically love Man in the High Castle and American History X.

The mere fact that they can't get over Zeon after 40 years is sketchy as fuck. Including Zeon ideals at all, even if on the losing end, is not condemnation at this point, it's promotion. For a ideology with deliberate parallels to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan's worst atrocities.

This distresses people. And the fact that you deny that people should be distressed is sketch as fuck too, bee tee dubs.


EDIT: Side note:
from what I recall from reading the Hathaway's Flash summary on an old gundam fansite, Hathaway does not in fact take up Char's legacy in the novel. Mafty has a deliberate "Folk Hero Outlaw" aesthetic, which is why I said in an earlier post that Robin Hood in Giant robos would be rad.

So, y'know what, i'll hold out some hope the trailer just had a dumb line.
 
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It probably doesn't help that the man who wrote the Unicorn novel, Fukui, is a massive Imperial Japan apologist of the "Imperial Japan didn't do any warcrimes and was liberating Asia from western colonialism" types. So him putting in a literal "Side Co Prosperity Sphere" as a good thing is sketchy as fuck.
 
Why are we getting hung up on the line 'heir to the ideals of Amuro and Char'?

This isn't something anyone is saying in universe, this is a line from the narrator in a promotional video.

Remember, at the end of the day, Char Aznable is a fictional character, not a real person who killed real people. And in popular culture, he's held up as an iconic villain who defined an archetype. What that line really means is them saying 'Hey, Hathaway is a cool character, just like Amuro and Char! So you should go watch the movie about him!'
 
Again, I await a rebuttal.

That you do not accept that it is a rebuttal does not mean that it isn't a rebuttal.

Zeon should be dead.

And it's not. That's price of entry when it comes to watching Gundam. If you don't like that's cool, but we shouldn't have to keep dealing with your personal hangups with it after five years.

It probably doesn't help that the man who wrote the Unicorn novel, Fukui, is a massive Imperial Japan apologist of the "Imperial Japan didn't do any warcrimes and was liberating Asia from western colonialism" types. So him putting in a literal "Side Co Prosperity Sphere" as a good thing is sketchy as fuck.

This argument has been had numerous times and, as as has been demonstrated to you specifically, isn't actually true.

Remember, at the end of the day, Char Aznable is a fictional character, not a real person who killed real people. And in popular culture, he's held up as an iconic villain who defined an archetype. What that line really means is them saying 'Hey, Hathaway is a cool character, just like Amuro and Char! So you should go watch the movie about him!'

Well, Hathaway's formative experience as a kid was the Second Neo Zeon War, so it's pretty fair to say that the events of that had an effect on him. Which is what the narrator is really getting at. In Hathaway's Flash the protagonist, who comes along after Amuro and Char are gone following the end of Beltorchika's Children, is Hathaway.
 
Why are we getting hung up on the line 'heir to the ideals of Amuro and Char'?

This isn't something anyone is saying in universe, this is a line from the narrator in a promotional video.

Remember, at the end of the day, Char Aznable is a fictional character, not a real person who killed real people. And in popular culture, he's held up as an iconic villain who defined an archetype. What that line really means is them saying 'Hey, Hathaway is a cool character, just like Amuro and Char! So you should go watch the movie about him!'

Hmn, good point. Though "ideals" doesn't really fit, IMO. But then maybe it's a culture thing.

It probably doesn't help that the man who wrote the Unicorn novel, Fukui, is a massive Imperial Japan apologist of the "Imperial Japan didn't do any warcrimes and was liberating Asia from western colonialism" types. So him putting in a literal "Side Co Prosperity Sphere" as a good thing is sketchy as fuck.

Ford and Kei chimed in on this in the other thread I brought up, and no apparently this isn't accurate.

He is a Japanese nationalist, but in the "the US making japan promise to never go to war again ever was over the top, they didn't make Germany do this" way.

He still manages to stumble into implicitly whitewashing colonialism, but warcrime denial may be a unfair accusation.
 
And it's not. That's price of entry when it comes to watching Gundam. If you don't like that's cool, but we shouldn't have to keep dealing with your personal hangups with it after five years.
And it's not like there aren't plenty of Gundam series which don't have Zeon as the villian, anyway.
 
SO! How about that Penelope, eh? Pretty cool, right?
Indeed, Ironically it looks more like a successor to Jerid's flying Mobile Suit than any previous. It's going interesting to see it actually move in combat.

I'm really digging the kind of cel shaded look the CGI has.
 
What part isn't true? That a Japanese work trying to portray a "Co Prosperity Sphere" set up by space fascists isn't sketchy, or that Harutoshi Fukui doesn't have public and questionable Right Wing and Historically Revisionist tendencies?

Because the first one makes you look bad. The second claim, well, I've got this Interview with Fukui that the New York Times did which explicitly states his Right wing and historical revisionist leanings.
 
And it's not. That's price of entry when it comes to watching Gundam. If you don't like that's cool, but we shouldn't have to keep dealing with your personal hangups with it after five years.

That's your privilege talking.

People are distressed by nazi-adjacent-ideology promotion. People are distressed by implicit legitimization-by-proxy of the GEACPS concept.

It's not (solely) because we're over sensitive and have personal hangups.

It's because we can point to the fucking holes in our family trees from real Nazi or IJN or KKK atrocities.

Like I said, this attitude of yours is sketch as fuck. Doubling down on it just makes you look genuinely terrible as well as condescending.
 
SO! How about that Penelope, eh? Pretty cool, right?

It's an interesting MS. It must be pretty awkward to animate, especially given how it flies all the time (which probably accounts for why a few of the cuts it features in make use of a CG model). Hataway's Flash is being directed by Murase Shukou, which is perhaps why the focus is more on the character art and animation in the trailers than the mechanical animation. He's an interest pick for the lead role, but I'm interested in seeing what he'll do with a Gundam project. If you've heard of Witch Hunter Robin or Ergo Proxy, he directed both.

What part isn't true? That a Japanese work trying to portray a "Co Prosperity Sphere" set up by space fascists isn't sketchy, or that Harutoshi Fukui doesn't have public and questionable Right Wing and Historically Revisionist tendencies?

Both. Full Frontal is the antagonist for goodness sake. Him trying to set up the Side Co-Prosperity Sphere is a villainous act. That NYT interview simply does not establish him as a historical revionist.

It's because we can point to the fucking holes in our family trees from real Nazi or IJN or KKK atrocities.

A lot of my family died in the Cardiff Blitz.
 
Indeed, Ironically it looks more like a successor to Jerid's flying Mobile Suit than any previous. It's going interesting to see it actually move in combat.

I'm really digging the kind of cel shaded look the CGI has.
It's an interesting MS. It must be pretty awkward to animate, especially given how it flies all the time (which probably accounts for why a few of the cuts it features in make use of a CG model). Hataway's Flash is being directed by Murase Shukou, which is perhaps why the focus is more on the character art and animation in the trailers than the mechanical animation. He's an interest pick for the lead role, but I'm interested in seeing what he'll do with a Gundam project. If you've heard of Witch Hunter Robin or Ergo Proxy, he directed both.
Yeah, the Penelope design has never really worked for me - it just looks supremely awkward, generally - but from what little we've seen of it so far they have managed to make it look pretty interesting and made its movement seem kind of believable. I am hoping that will really hold up, because that would make it a very unique machine. In a good way.

And I had not thought of it, but it does look a little like the what was it, Byarlant? Very Zeta, anyway. Just with a less 80s colorscheme, for shame.

The general absence of Xi has been a little odd though. Makes me wonder if they've redesigned it a little or something, you know? Or maybe they have a really good 'first moment' for it they do not want to mess with and are waiting until closer to the release to reveal that scene.
 
Full Frontal is the antagonist for goodness sake. Him trying to set up the Side Co-Prosperity Sphere is a villainous act.

It's a villainous act presented as a credible threat instead of arrant nonsense, which is inherently legitimizing. The GEACPS was a blatant layer of justifying paint over vicious colonialism. "Co-prosperity" was a bad, tasteless, joke to those who experience its horrors. The narrative treating the SCPS as a valid idea that isn't immediately dismissed as imperialism in sheep's clothing implicitly suggests that the real version also was perhaps a valid idea that failed in execution - rather than being poisonous from the get go.

I've only been saying this for four years, my dude, are you ever going to not skip over this point in favor of telling me how nebulously wrong I am?



You don't discredit fash by painting them as the badguy. Facism supporters love it when ideologies with recognizable parallels to their own are portrayed as doomed antagonists who nonetheless look snazzy and act badass and go down fighting.

You discredit fash by honing in on how ridiculous their ideas are. Audrey should have told FF that even a kid like her knows that most non-side-3 spacenoids would respond with gunfire rather than agreement to such a proposal, what has he been smoking?


A lot of my family died in the Cardiff Blitz.

They weren't targeted for being white.
 
You're pretty wrong and problematic here, Ford. You're continually defending what are, to many of us, betrayals of fascism and imperialism that portray it as "Cool" or "Not any worse than the alternatives." To go further, you're attacking and belittling us for it, and implying that we aren't real Gundam fans because we don't have the same opinion as you, and that we shouldn't talk about Gundam in a thread to talk about Gundam because you don't like it and we should bow before your whims.

You're wrong, you're being insulting and problematic, and it isn't cool.
 
The general absence of Xi has been a little odd though. Makes me wonder if they've redesigned it a little or something, you know? Or maybe they have a really good 'first moment' for it they do not want to mess with and are waiting until closer to the release to reveal that scene.

The Xi, like a lot of designs in the original novel, has been redesigned in the past. I don't think we'll see any really significant changes in the design. Still, these are just teasers that focus mainly on the early parts of the story (the shuttle hijacking in the trailer is in the second chapter of the novel).

It's a villainous act presented as a credible threat instead of arrant nonsense, which is inherently legitimizing. The GEACPS was a blatant layer of justifying paint over vicious colonialism. "Co-prosperity" was a bad, tasteless, joke to those who experience its horrors. The narrative treating the SCPS as a valid idea that isn't immediately dismissed as imperialism in sheep's clothing implicitly suggests that the real version also was perhaps a valid idea that failed in execution - rather than being poisonous from the get go.

I've only been saying this for four years, my dude, are you ever going to not skip over this point in favor of telling me how nebulously wrong I am?

As I said to you just recently, and as I said to you five years ago, the story of Gundam Unicorn is not solely an allegory for World War II. It's probably fair to say that it's not an allegory for World War II at all, even though Full Frontal's plan alludes to an element of that history. Gundam Unicorn is first of all a sequel to Char's Counterattack, which is itself a sequel to ZZ Gundam, which is a sequel to Zeta Gundam, which is a sequel to the original. It's an entry in a long running franchise and it's open to that franchise to be about itself.

With regards your specific point that by making it so Full Frontal could succeed this, by necessity this 'legitimises' the actions of Imperial Japan is a pretty long bow to draw. You say that Minerva should have told Full Frontal that it wouldn't even be possible, but he's the main antagonist. He's supposed to be dangerous. But that doesn't mean he's legitimised. When he reveals his motivations Minerva actually does tell him that it won't work. This is somewhat different, but after he explains himself, she tells him, straight to his face, in the same scene, that all it will do is create a different cycle of resentment with the roles reversed. That it is essentially just a flimsy justification.

That's literally the text of the story. The main revelation that we get about Full Frontal is that for all his professed ideals he is ultimately empty, that there's nothing to him except for Char Aznable's lingering guilt and resentment. To me that seems to more or less fit your requirements for it to not be 'bad civilisation.'
 
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The Xi, like a lot of designs in the original novel, has been redesigned in the past. I don't think we'll see any really significant changes in the design. Still, these are just teasers that focus mainly on the early parts of the story (the shuttle hijacking in the trailer is in the second chapter of the novel).



As I said to you just recently, and as I said to you five years ago, the story of Gundam Unicorn is not solely an allegory for World War II. It's probably fair to say that it's not an allegory for World War II at all, even though Full Frontal's plan alludes to an element of that history. Gundam Unicorn is first of all a sequel to Char's Counterattack, which is itself a sequel to ZZ Gundam, which is a sequel to Zeta Gundam, which is a sequel to the original. It's an entry in a long running franchise and it's open to that franchise to be about itself.

With regards your specific point that by making it so Full Frontal could succeed this, by necessity this 'legitimises' the actions of Imperial Japan is a pretty long bow to draw. You say that Minerva should have told Full Frontal that it wouldn't even be possible, but he's the main antagonist. He's supposed to be dangerous. But that doesn't mean he's legitimate. When he reveals his motivations Minerva actually does tell him that it won't work. This is somewhat different, but after he explains himself, she tells him, straight to his face, in essentially the same scene, that all it will do is create a different cycle of resentment with the roles reversed. That it is essentially just a flimsy justification.

That's literally the text of the story. The main revelation that we get about Full Frontal is that for all his professed ideals he is ultimately empty, that there's nothing to him except for Char Aznable's lingering guilt and resentment. To me that seems to more or less fit your requirements for it to not be 'bad civilisation.'

The point isn't that it won't work. Again, Fash love villains with plans that wont work, as long as they look cool doing it.


The point is that the plan relies on the biggest victims of Zeon taking Zeon's side in away that suggests that, by analogy, the GEACPS was a genuine attempt at pan-asian sentiment and not a thin facade for colonial exploitation.

Which is, again, infuriating to the victims of that exploitation. I'm angry about "Co-prosperity" and the "everyone apparently forgot about the mass murder less than a generation ago, because otherwise no one with a functioning brain would trust this proposal coming from someone wearing Zeon iconography" not "Full Frontal wasn't confronted about being wrong." He was, you're right on that point, okay?


Minerva's objection isn't "Zeon was never truly for spacenoid solidarity, even I know that's a lie," which would at least reflect the reality both in verse and out. It is, instead, by your own description: "A pan-spacenoid economic alliance would just become as bad as the Federation in time." Which is, granted, a legitimate and meaningful objection to FF's plan on distant and dispassionate pacifistic moral principles. It's NOT AT ALL a rejection of "co-prosperity spheres" on honesty and human rights moral principles. It also completely skips the HIGHLY topical "my dude, no one trusts the genocide man to lead a currency union," which strikes me a big (and problematic) thing to skip over.

My objection isn't that FF's plan is bad - if he could get cooperation (he can't because that's insane), economic warfare isn't a bad path for his goals - it's that his plan requires ridiculous premises and and therefore insulting to the viewers as thinking humans as well as because of the RL thing it parallels.

To much of Asia "co-prosperity sphere" is Japan putting them under the boot under the blatantly false promise of coming together as comrades to face the European powers. Minerva's objection translates as "But if all Asia gets together to beat on Europe, won't we become the colonizers?" which I think is a noble sentiment, but clearly missing the point. Asia won't get together, because Asia remembers that the last time someone suggested this what actually happened was mass murder.

Zeon was far worse about the mass murder than Japan. Zeon proposing a CPS would quite literally be greeted with gunfire by any side full of actual human beings (many of whom have seen the WMD'd colonies Zeon left in their wake even as they claimed to be for spacenoids) rather than cardboard cut-out non-people.

Unicorn apparently has loads of non-people (or the MCs actually thinking that everyone else on the other colonies have no agency and will fall in line with crazyplan, which is even worse), because the objections I pointed out are never even hinted at. Mr. perhaps-not-as-bad-as-fivemarks-says is apparently oblivious to what kinds of associations the words "co-prosperity sphere" evokes in non-Japanese-nationalist people.


It honestly feels like Fukui refuses to believe that the GEACPS was not proposed in good faith to begin with because surely my beloved Japan wouldn't be so evil? I mean, that may be unfair to the guy but I can't blame @Fivemarks for assuming the worst in this context.

For emphasis, the Underlined part above is auto-aggro for a lot of Asian people. (I'm honestly mellow about it compared to my uncle)
 
The point is that the plan relies on the biggest victims of Zeon taking Zeon's side in away that suggests that, by analogy, the GEACPS was a genuine attempt at pan-asian sentiment and not a thin facade for colonial exploitation.

Again, Gundam doesn't exist to only be allegory. It presents a genuinely very different political geography, and the story taking that on its face shouldn't be an issue in itself. You're ascribing to Sunrise a responsibility that seems enormously onerous for a company that makes giant robot cartoons. Your argument largely turns on this idea that people might misunderstand it, and so use it to support their ideologies. You've used the example of Neo Nazis loving American History X, but the director of American History X is Tony Kaye, who grew up in an Orthodox Jewish household. It seems to me to be a pretty unfair form of critique, given that Kaye's intentions with the film are made plain.

Lots of people don't get Fight Club, for example, and misunderstand its message. In fact they believe Fight Club to mean the exact opposite of what it actually does. Does that mean that Fight Club is actually promoting this different message? I don't think so. Inasmuch as meaning is created by the audience, equally the text exists absent of that audience. We can still find the real meaning of that text. The apparent risk that someone, already predisposed to a bad ideology, might interpret it in a bad way doesn't strike me as that critical.

And I think that's particularly uncharitable given that, to my knowledge, there aren't really a lot of groups that use Gundam in the same way. It's not as if uyoku dantai go around wearing Zeonic uniforms, nor does it seem particularly popular with Neo Nazis or whoever. I'm sure there's probably someone out there who loves Gundam because they don't understand it and think that it's pro-imperialist apologia, but you're essentially holding it responsible for something that hasn't really happened. Especially since it directly confronts these themes and presents them as destructive dead ends time and again.

Zeon was far worse about the mass murder than Japan. Zeon proposing a CPS would quite literally be greeted with gunfire by any side full of actual human beings (many of whom have seen the WMD'd colonies Zeon left in their wake even as they claimed to be for spacenoids) rather than cardboard cut-out non-people.

It's not UC0079 any more. Just as we do business with Germany, Japan and Italy, the other Sides do business with Side 6. Times change, and the threat posed by the Republic of Zeon is pretty minimal. Full Frontal's plan doesn't hinge on them getting behind Neo Zeon, it hinges on them wanting what the Republic of Zeon has. That hardly seems ridiculous. Notably something that Fukui does believe, and I feel I should note here that Gundam Unicorn was written with considerable oversight from Sunrise itself, is that people don't really want to be under the thumb of a larger military power. This is a right wing position as far as Japanese politics goes, but it is not that objectionable. In a different country it would be a left wing position, as it is in Australia, which also has an unequal security relationship with the United States.

More to the point, the actual resolution of Gundam Unicorn isn't rooted in siding with either the Federation or Zeon, but rather in a message of hope about the possibilities that the future holds for us, and that fear shouldn't hold us back.
 
Having recently watched early UC material for the first time, I feel like a lot of the issue here isn't what Zeon has but what the Federation doesn't have. 0079, taken alone, presents a very different picture of events than later material. The intro states that half the civilian population of both sides had been wiped out, implying the first month of the war was more equivalent to a nuclear exchange than a genocide, with the colony drop shown just being one example of the kind of atrocities both sides agreed to ban during the Antarctic treaty. Zeon itself is shown to have a lot of internal conflict as to what their ideology should be - it's a plot point that there's not really any consensus on what Zeon the person's writing means. The only character in 0079 shown to be in favor of genocide is the one compared to Hitler in-universe.

The Federation, on the other hand, is practically a blank slate. This works fine for 0079 because we're rooting for Amuro and friends. We don't need to be invested in the Federation as a political entity because we're invested in the protagonists. Unfortunately, we then get Zeta, which tries to flip the script with Federation-aligned villains but fails so badly to establish the Titans as a faction that by the end of the series they've been entirely superseded by Zeon 2 and Zeon but from Jupiter. Nobody ever got around to actually establishing the Federation beyond the fact that they're generally assholes, while Zeon's iconic imagery and characters got continually reused and remixed again and again... including the colony drop and space Nazi parts.

So Zeon gets to pile on atrocity after atrocity, including multiple cases where a show released later added them to earlier parts of the timeline, while the Federation becomes even more empty. The Origin trying to awkwardly cram every single iconic aspect of the UC it could into the beginning of the One Year War is particularly guilty here; it undermines the above interpretation of 0079 by making Zeon genocidal space Nazis from the beginning, while having a single Federation perspective with minimal screentime.

It's not surprising that the UC returns to variations on Zeon's ideals again and again, when there are no other ideals to choose from.
 
Again, Gundam doesn't exist to only be allegory. It presents a genuinely very different political geography, and the story taking that on its face shouldn't be an issue in itself. You're ascribing to Sunrise a responsibility that seems enormously onerous for a company that makes giant robot cartoons. Your argument largely turns on this idea that people might misunderstand it, and so use it to support their ideologies. You've used the example of Neo Nazis loving American History X, but the director of American History X is Tony Kaye, who grew up in an Orthodox Jewish household. It seems to me to be a pretty unfair form of critique, given that Kaye's intentions with the film are made plain.

Lots of people don't get Fight Club, for example, and misunderstand its message. In fact they believe Fight Club to mean the exact opposite of what it actually does. Does that mean that Fight Club is actually promoting this different message? I don't think so. Inasmuch as meaning is created by the audience, equally the text exists absent of that audience. We can still find the real meaning of that text. The apparent risk that someone, already predisposed to a bad ideology, might interpret it in a bad way doesn't strike me as that critical.

And I think that's particularly uncharitable given that, to my knowledge, there aren't really a lot of groups that use Gundam in the same way. It's not as if uyoku dantai go around wearing Zeonic uniforms, nor does it seem particularly popular with Neo Nazis or whoever. I'm sure there's probably someone out there who loves Gundam because they don't understand it and think that it's pro-imperialist apologia, but you're essentially holding it responsible for something that hasn't really happened. Especially since it directly confronts these themes and presents them as destructive dead ends time and again.


It's not UC0079 any more. Just as we do business with Germany, Japan and Italy, the other Sides do business with Side 6. Times change, and the threat posed by the Republic of Zeon is pretty minimal. Full Frontal's plan doesn't hinge on them getting behind Neo Zeon, it hinges on them wanting what the Republic of Zeon has. That hardly seems ridiculous. Notably something that Fukui does believe, and I feel I should note here that Gundam Unicorn was written with considerable oversight from Sunrise itself, is that people don't really want to be under the thumb of a larger military power. This is a right wing position as far as Japanese politics goes, but it is not that objectionable. In a different country it would be a left wing position, as it is in Australia, which also has an unequal security relationship with the United States.

More to the point, the actual resolution of Gundam Unicorn isn't rooted in siding with either the Federation or Zeon, but rather in a message of hope about the possibilities that the future holds for us, and that fear shouldn't hold us back.

I agree that stories mean different things to different people. And I have nothing against Mr. Kaye, I enjoyed his movie myself.

My issue with you, @Ford Prefect is that I (and fivemarks, as I understand him) am saying that this story (Unicorn) presents a situation which is painfully insensitive as we receive it. That you don't feel the pain does not give you the right to dismiss ours, and that dismissal is in fact something that people could very justifiably be angry with you for, and doubly so when you double down on the dismissal in such a condescending tone.

When someone tells you to check your privilege, "i also have suffered" is the most insulting response. Everyone has suffered. We all know this. It doesn't erase our particular pain.

I get (hope?) that you don't mean to be, but you have been pretty hurtful here.


I don't meant to say that Unicorn means exactly what I say it does. I'm not even the author and the author is (proverbially) dead anyway. I just say it presents something in such a blatantly insensitive way (at least to the eyes of people like myself and fivemarks) that it's difficult to believe it wasn't intentional. Maybe it really was unintentional, and our negative read is way off, but honestly? That isn't an excuse. Part of the professional author's craft is double checking for such unintentional "coming across as an asshole" moments. It's literally part of the job.

You've been hurtful. Fukui has been hurtful.

But Fukui isn't here and I'm not interested in attacking his character. He made the work, it exists in the wild now, and the author is (proverbially) dead. I'm just going to say that he has a specific (non-encompassing) failure as a writer here, and even if you think it's small (because it's inconsequential to you), denying it is a dick move.

You don't need to keep being hurtful.

Seriously, if you'd just said that "yeah there are some issues, but I think they are relatively minor and don't ruin what is IMO a great piece" this would have ended 4 years ago.

Instead, you're the white guy telling the minorities that their sense of pain over colonialism isn't real.



Having recently watched early UC material for the first time, I feel like a lot of the issue here isn't what Zeon has but what the Federation doesn't have. 0079, taken alone, presents a very different picture of events than later material. The intro states that half the civilian population of both sides had been wiped out, implying the first month of the war was more equivalent to a nuclear exchange than a genocide, with the colony drop shown just being one example of the kind of atrocities both sides agreed to ban during the Antarctic treaty. Zeon itself is shown to have a lot of internal conflict as to what their ideology should be - it's a plot point that there's not really any consensus on what Zeon the person's writing means. The only character in 0079 shown to be in favor of genocide is the one compared to Hitler in-universe.

The Federation, on the other hand, is practically a blank slate. This works fine for 0079 because we're rooting for Amuro and friends. We don't need to be invested in the Federation as a political entity because we're invested in the protagonists. Unfortunately, we then get Zeta, which tries to flip the script with Federation-aligned villains but fails so badly to establish the Titans as a faction that by the end of the series they've been entirely superseded by Zeon 2 and Zeon but from Jupiter. Nobody ever got around to actually establishing the Federation beyond the fact that they're generally assholes, while Zeon's iconic imagery and characters got continually reused and remixed again and again... including the colony drop and space Nazi parts.

So Zeon gets to pile on atrocity after atrocity, including multiple cases where a show released later added them to earlier parts of the timeline, while the Federation becomes even more empty. The Origin trying to awkwardly cram every single iconic aspect of the UC it could into the beginning of the One Year War is particularly guilty here; it undermines the above interpretation of 0079 by making Zeon genocidal space Nazis from the beginning, while having a single Federation perspective with minimal screentime.

It's not surprising that the UC returns to variations on Zeon's ideals again and again, when there are no other ideals to choose from.

I looked up the old gundamcentury archive 4 years ago and no, you have the history wrong. Zeon was ridiculously atrocity happy from the very first version. The sources say that the One Week Battle killed half of humanity were OLD ones. They also say that Zeon launched WMDS into colonies as a "show of strength" - to try and terrify the EF into submission, as best i can parse it.

There's no indication anywhere the EF managed to WMD Zeon's civilian anything, that I have seen. Apparently they did threaten zeon with long range nuclear missiles but the only civilians the EF canonically WMD'd during the OYW were the ones caught in the nuclear crossfire at Loum.
 
Rule 4: Don’t Be Disruptive: This kind of apology just makes things worse
My issue with you, @Ford Prefect is that I (and fivemarks, as I understand him) am saying that this story (Unicorn) presents a situation which is painfully insensitive as we receive it. That you don't feel the pain does not give you the right to dismiss ours, and that dismissal is in fact something that people could very justifiably be angry with you for, and doubly so when you double down on the dismissal in such a condescending tone.

My issue with you, Chloe, is that for as much as you complain about other people being condescending, you are actually extremely condescending yourself. You describe me as dismissive but I have actually made quite considerable efforts to communicate with you, despite the fact that you seem more or less unwilling to hear anyone else out. That's very frustrating to have to deal with. It's genuinely exhausting.

I'm sorry that, in my attempt to communicate this to you, that I came off as dismissive. Even if it is exhausting and frustrating, I should have been more careful with how I said what I said. But you aren't an innocent actor in all this. There's much that has been said to you, and has been explained to you, that you just haven't taken on board.
 
My issue with you, Chloe, is that for as much as you complain about other people being condescending, you are actually extremely condescending yourself. You describe me as dismissive but I have actually made quite considerable efforts to communicate with you, despite the fact that you seem more or less unwilling to hear anyone else out. That's very frustrating to have to deal with. It's genuinely exhausting.

I'm sorry that, in my attempt to communicate this to you, that I came off as dismissive. Even if it is exhausting and frustrating, I should have been more careful with how I said what I said. But you aren't an innocent actor in all this. There's much that has been said to you, and has been explained to you, that you just haven't taken on board.
But I have been hearing you out? Like I have subsequent to our earlier talks on gundam, repeatedly told other people stuff based on the stuff you mentioned to me. I've taken your lore claims as face value honest and used them in other discussions. Which is more than you can say.

Like I can't help but think you're projecting when you said earlier that I am mad because people don't agree with me.

I'm not innocent of stonewalling but you've been the main mason here.

I have agreed with you a whole bunch of times. (I already said this too.) I keep posting again because you keep denying that my read on Gundam has any validity, and not once saying why my logic is actually (in your view) wrong. It's always appeals to lore that you insist I never watched. Or talking about Japanese Politics when I'm making a point about Chinese trauma and then telling me that not knowing Japanese politics means I don't get a say. Or talking about how Gundam doesn't have to be an analogy to what I see it as analogous to, and likely isn't meant to be. But it can be read that way, and it wouldn't kill you to acknowledge that.

I'm not even blaming you here. I think we have a fundamental disconnect where you are interested in what the gundam writers want to say as a message and get mad when my response kinda answers you but doesn't engage with that message because my actual issue is't with the message. Like looking back on our arguments you keep being mad that I don't "get" the core message/themes of Gundam (which aren't super subtle, so it's understandably frustrating that I seem so obtuse) and then repeatedly diss me by saying I clearly didn't actually watch the shows (which I quite honestly feel is rule breaking behavior, especially since I took the pains to talk about what I did watch and read). This made you entirely miss that I mostly agree with you about the themes, and am criticizing something else entirely. It's that Gundam has a lot of versamilatude problems that crop up because I don't feel the authors track the implications of their setting, and this ends up sending some pretty sketch meta-messages/implications as a result.

I agree with the text, and with much of your analysis. I just see a lot of subtext, and while some of it probably is spurious or wrong, you denying any of what is see is real goes beyond an argument about Gundam and into me feeling like you consider me too stupid to interpret literature/film.

Like, it's not just me, several people have commented on discord that they are offended on my behalf here.


I have been condescending, and I apologize for that. Pleas accept my apologies for my poor tone.


I feel like you owe @Fivemarks an apology, though.
 
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It's a villainous act presented as a credible threat instead of arrant nonsense, which is inherently legitimizing. The GEACPS was a blatant layer of justifying paint over vicious colonialism. "Co-prosperity" was a bad, tasteless, joke to those who experience its horrors. The narrative treating the SCPS as a valid idea that isn't immediately dismissed as imperialism in sheep's clothing implicitly suggests that the real version also was perhaps a valid idea that failed in execution - rather than being poisonous from the get go.

I've only been saying this for four years, my dude, are you ever going to not skip over this point in favor of telling me how nebulously wrong I am?



You don't discredit fash by painting them as the badguy. Facism supporters love it when ideologies with recognizable parallels to their own are portrayed as doomed antagonists who nonetheless look snazzy and act badass and go down fighting.

You discredit fash by honing in on how ridiculous their ideas are. Audrey should have told FF that even a kid like her knows that most non-side-3 spacenoids would respond with gunfire rather than agreement to such a proposal, what has he been smoking?




They weren't targeted for being white.

I'd have to jump in here to point out that Audrey's takedown of Frontal's plans as fundamentally flawed to its core principles is a far more effective repudiation of his fascist ideals than what you're proposing here. The reason why Audrey doesn't bother to point out the bad faith behind the SCPS is that Full Frontal himself had, not 5 minutes before, stated what he wanted to do with it: reverse the situation and now have the colonies oppress the Earth. The SCPS isn't Frontal's goal, but ultimately just a tool for this end. Minerva isn't reduced to nitpicking the details of its execution, but in its fundamental, moral character. That ultimately, Frontal's solution merely swaps sides between oppressor and oppressed, failing to solve the conflicts of the Universal Century. That no degree of success in implementation, no hard work and fighting spirit,no "but what if I did this instead...", will ever be able to patch up this failure of its fundamental philosophy. That ultimately imperialism and colonialism and fascism, as embodied by Full Frontal, is not a solution.

Your constant harping on "it'll never work because the other Sides will oppose it" just sends the message that if Frontal just got rid of the dissenters he could succeed, which is ironically the very message that you're trying to avoid in the first place.
 
I looked up the old gundamcentury archive 4 years ago and no, you have the history wrong. Zeon was ridiculously atrocity happy from the very first version. The sources say that the One Week Battle killed half of humanity were OLD ones. They also say that Zeon launched WMDS into colonies as a "show of strength" - to try and terrify the EF into submission, as best i can parse it.

There's no indication anywhere the EF managed to WMD Zeon's civilian anything, that I have seen. Apparently they did threaten zeon with long range nuclear missiles but the only civilians the EF canonically WMD'd during the OYW were the ones caught in the nuclear crossfire at Loum.
Here's the exact quote from 0079, which is ambiguous but certainly implies the Federation was just as involved in the atrocities that took place during the first month of the war.
In roughly one month of fighting, the principality of Zeon and the Federation forces caused the deaths of half the total population. Humanity was horrified by its own actions.
I don't really care about what external sources say happened, because those sources aren't in 0079, and thematically Zeon in 0079 is a lot more interesting as an example of authoritarianism inevitably leading to fascism than one that was space Nazi from the beginning.
 
Your constant harping on "it'll never work because the other Sides will oppose it" just sends the message that if Frontal just got rid of the dissenters he could succeed,

When literally everyone is dissenter, getting rid of the dissenters is a path to failure, and that's Chloe's point: everyone ought to be a dissenter and you can't actually get rid of them.
 
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