Lieutenant General Gundam

Democracies having territories outside their system, or with lesser franchise, or wth a different relationship legally isn't even uncommon. Even if you're obsessed with the USA, the USA has had (and has now) a range of different types of components with different types of citizen, different types of laws, different give and take from the federal government.

The idea that someone said it was democratic and thus it is like US domestic politics, when it's decades of space colonisation and unprecedented population movements, is a bold one.
 
What about what Gihren said gives you details of Federation governance compared to the USA? So far all you've said is democracy = like USA, which I'm sorry is ridiculous.

How do you respond to the other 40 years of UC that says something about government?
 
Hat about what Gihren said gives you details of Federation governance compared to the USA? So far all you've said is democracy = like USA, which I'm sorry is ridiculous.
They have a president and a senate that is more than enough. Again you have yet proved your claim where all politcans are from earth. Again your claim is that all polticans are from earth. Prove it
 
The French Fifth Republic has a president and a senate. Is that now 'just like' the USA, and can we use our gut feeling about the USA when discussing French domestic politics?
 
Even if it was exactly like the US, the US has territories that elect members of congress that don't actually get to vote lol
 
Japan had a president (or Prime Minister), and a congress (The National Diet) during the years between 1937 to 1945. How democratic was it?
 
They have a president and a senate that is more than enough. Again you have yet proved your claim where all politcans are from earth. Again your claim is that all polticans are from earth. Prove it
Gambia has a President and a National Assembly (an elected legislature which is basically a senate). That President is Yahya Jammeh, who seized power in a coup and has said some loco shit. There are a good number of alleged human rights abuses and restrictions on press freedoms and the like.

But, y'know, they have a President and a Senate by any other name, so they're just like the US, right?

The role, powers, status, and systems of power transfer are not set in stone as USA simply by using the word President. And even if they were, there are places like the US Virgin Islands, who could not elect their own governors until 1970 and still can't vote for President. Or freaking Washington DC, who did not have an elected local government until 1973 and still have issues like not being able to vote in Congress and Congress getting to approve their budget and taxation.
 
You guys still have not proven your claim. Where does it say that the colonies can't vote. Or hold office. Maybe it not like the USA. But the EF was based on the USA if Tomino based Gundam on WWII. Than it easily assumed that that EF is a democracy like the USA. Hell that want the Narratiive is a saying when Gihren and Degwin were talk. Prove your claim
Do you think all democracies are the same or something? You said it was like the US. You can try proving that one.
The EF was based on WWII USA.

Stilling waiting on that proof that you guys have claiming that the colonies can't vote or hold offices.
 
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You guys still have not proven your claim. Where does it say that the colonies can't vote. Or hold office.
You, uh, you have seen Unicorn, right? In a language you can follow the conversations in and everything? I mean, it's pretty blatant in Zeta and such too but they're all but rubbing your nose in the political disparities in UnicronUnicorn.
But the EF was based on the USA if Tomino based Gundam on WWII. Than it easily assumed that that EF is a democracy like the USA.
That doesn't necessarily track. For one thing, the only blatantly clear political analogue is Zeon -> Nazis. Zeon has no 'Axis of Evil' to map the other WW2 nations to, and the Federation is not an alliance of nations. If 'opposed Nazis' is your criterion, Britain is also a distinct possibility.

Furthermore, that still doesn't address that the US literally does shit like that. There are US territories that cannot vote.
 
You, uh, you have seen Unicorn, right? In a language you can follow the conversations in and everything? I mean, it's pretty blatant in Zeta and such too but they're all but rubbing your nose in the political disparities in UnicronUnicorn.
Than prove it. Prove with scans. Prove with a video. But I will tell you something there is no proof.

That doesn't necessarily track. For one thing, the only blatantly clear political analogue is Zeon -> Nazis. Zeon has no 'Axis of Evil' to map the other WW2 nations to, and the Federation is not an alliance of nations. If 'opposed Nazis' is your criterion, Britain is also a distinct possibility.

Furthermore, that still doesn't address that the US literally does shit like that. There are US territories that cannot vote.
Actually it does. We see several American expy. From Roosevelt(Revil) to Nimitz(Cassius). And again you have to prove that the colonies can't vote. No has
 
Well, in Zeta look at literally every single interaction Titans members have with colonists or colonies, as well as the way that they are cracking down on protest movements and generally passing around the oppression bat. In particular, I would note that this is essentially their mandate. It's the whole fuck over the Federation thing that gets the higher ups coming down on their asses.

In Unicorn, look at RE: 0096 Episode 6, timestamp 14:00 to about 15:50 (there are other spots if you care to look, but this was the first to come to mind). Now, there are several topics being discussed, but the important one for this discussion is that the early settlers were mainly beggars and political criminals, that they were an abandoned people. In being abandoned by both the Federation and, to some extent, God, these people then turned to Zeon. It's an attempt, mainly, to explain the fanaticism expressed in light of shit like the colony drop, but what's important here is that they were or at least strongly felt that they had been abandoned, as well as that the content of the early settlements was mainly the powerless and those out of favor with people in power. Those are not groups that get given political power, and at no point in Unicorn or any other series does it treat them like they have political power.

In Char's Counterattack, we see that the Federation elite do not consider space as a legitimate threat despite all evidence to the contrary, as they practically hand Char the keys to the kingdom.

In Gundam F91, we see that the Earth Federation leadership and military brass both are completely willing to allow the slaughter and conquering of colonies so long as the interest remains solely on the colonies themselves.

The exact political structure of the colonies is not, to my knowledge, specifically laid out, but it is clearly one in which spacenoids possess little, if any, political power and no real capacity to influence Earth Federation decisions. We see this in the original Gundam, where Side 7 was a military test site despite being inhabited and the civilians onboard the White Base were pretty low priority (and both Zeon and the Federation are clearly only allowing the independent Side to be independent because they directly benefit). We see this in Zeta, where the colonies are under the heel of the Titans with a level of approval from the Federation and a lot of apathy. We see this in Char's Counterattack, where the Earth Federation leadership is so wildly out of touch with space that they hand Char obscenely dangerous material. We see this in Unicorn, where the idea that spacenoids were supposed to have proper political representation is part of a scandal which could potentially topple Earth Federation administration. We see this in F91, where the colonies are generally neglected and treated like shit by the Federation.

Actually it does. We see several American expy. From Roosevelt(Revil) to Nimitz(Cassius). And again you have to prove that the colonies can't vote. No has
I don't even remember a Cassius, but Revil was very much a Churchill figure IMO.
 
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Violation of Rule 4 - Bad Faith Debating
Well, in Zeta look at literally every single interaction Titans members have with colonists or colonies, as well as the way that they are cracking down on protest movements and generally passing around the oppression bat. In particular, I would note that this is essentially their mandate. It's the whole fuck over the Federation thing that gets the higher ups coming down on their asses.

In Unicorn, look at RE: 0096 Episode 6, timestamp 14:00 to about 15:50 (there are other spots if you care to look, but this was the first to come to mind). Now, there are several topics being discussed, but the important one for this discussion is that the early settlers were mainly beggars and political criminals, that they were an abandoned people. In being abandoned by both the Federation and, to some extent, God, these people then turned to Zeon. It's an attempt, mainly, to explain the fanaticism expressed in light of shit like the colony drop, but what's important here is that they were or at least strongly felt that they had been abandoned, as well as that the content of the early settlements was mainly the powerless and those out of favor with people in power. Those are not groups that get given political power, and at no point in Unicorn or any other series does it treat them like they have political power.

In Char's Counterattack, we see that the Federation elite do not consider space as a legitimate threat despite all evidence to the contrary, as they practically hand Char the keys to the kingdom.

In Gundam F91, we see that the Earth Federation leadership and military brass both are completely willing to allow the slaughter and conquering of colonies so long as the interest remains solely on the colonies themselves.

The exact political structure of the colonies is not, to my knowledge, specifically laid out, but it is clearly one in which spacenoids possess little, if any, political power and no real capacity to influence Earth Federation decisions. We see this in the original Gundam, where Side 7 was a military test site despite being inhabited and the civilians onboard the White Base were pretty low priority (and both Zeon and the Federation are clearly only allowing the independent Side to be independent because they directly benefit). We see this in Zeta, where the colonies are under the heel of the Titans with a level of approval from the Federation and a lot of apathy. We see this in Char's Counterattack, where the Earth Federation leadership is so wildly out of touch with space that they hand Char obscenely dangerous material. We see this in Unicorn, where the idea that spacenoids were supposed to have proper political representation is part of a scandal which could potentially topple Earth Federation administration. We see this in F91, where the colonies are generally neglected and treated like shit by the Federation.
Prove it. Use Scans. And nothing there actual prove that the colony can't vote. Give me proof
 
Prove it. Use Scans. And nothing there actual prove that the colony can't vote. Give me proof
Well, since you seem to be both unwilling to accept nuance and quite oddly shifty on the topic of proof, I suppose this won't go anywhere. I leave you with a quote from myself and a quote from you, so that you might understand this decision on my part:
The exact political structure of the colonies is not, to my knowledge, specifically laid out, but it is clearly one in which spacenoids possess little, if any, political power and no real capacity to influence Earth Federation decisions.
I am not arguing this specific stance you insist I prove.
Than prove it. Prove with scans. Prove with a video.
You have dropped this line from your rhetoric, presumably in response to my using video timestamps with regards to Unicorn. Combined with your insistence that I prove something I am not arguing, I cannot help but feel that if I provided scans you would switch to demanding a quote from a Tomino interview or something and use the lack of such as grounds to smugly declare that my argument is totally invalid.
 
You guys still have not proven your claim. Where does it say that the colonies can't vote. Or hold office. Maybe it not like the USA. But the EF was based on the USA if Tomino based Gundam on WWII. Than it easily assumed that that EF is a democracy like the USA. Hell that want the Narratiive is a saying when Gihren and Degwin were talk. Prove your claim

The EF was based on WWII USA.

Stilling waiting on that proof that you guys have claiming that the colonies can't vote or hold offices.

As I said ages ago, it doesn't matter if they're literally outside the system of power (if they can't vote, for instance, or if the colonies are non-voting territories, or considered 'cities' like the moon etc) or if they are just prevented from holding those positions (if Earth interests are unified against them, if they're subject to restrictions on expression or travel, or if they have only a small number of seats, or if they're spread across existing seats in a non-representative way, etc). It's enough that they don't hold any important political power, in particular political power over the administration of the colonies. They cannot choose their own leaders or destiny; this is all it takes to not be free.

Saying absurd things like 'the EF was based on WWII USA' just reveal your own bias and expectation. Can you explain what about the EF is like the USA during WWII?

EDIT hahah what, Revil is FDR? Can you connect the dots on that one for me? Was it Revil's strong social policy?
 
Stop: DON'T DO THIS
Prove with scans. Prove with a video. But I will tell you something there is no proof.
In Unicorn, look at RE: 0096 Episode 6, timestamp 14:00 to about 15:50
Prove it. Use Scans. And nothing there actual prove that the colony can't vote. Give me proof
don't do this @maguado87, you specifically included video as proof you would accept. It was provided. You then moved your goalposts. This is textbook bad faith depating. Do not do this again. 25 points.
 
The EF is Russia, anyways.

Blitzkrieg, long back-and-forth holding action, the Federation Strategic Offensive ends the war. I mean, the climatic battle of the war took place on the Russian steppes and involved a tank offensive. They're not even trying to hide it.
 
I used to have "UC is clearly the slow disintegration of a colonial empire ala Great Britain" argument but I'm finding the "The EF is the terrible political leadership of postwar Japan because the authors wrote what they knew" argument pretty compelling.
 
Umm... what? There is nothing about voting in that section
In Unicorn, look at RE: 0096 Episode 6, timestamp 14:00 to about 15:50 (there are other spots if you care to look, but this was the first to come to mind).
The entire thing was about the colonies need a new god. A new light to reach for. That light was Zeon. According to that women. Must have gloss over. But no. Really no. There nothing about them not voting.

Sorry if I gloss over it. But must have read to fast. But seriously no.
 
How do you think Spacenoids express their political will, then? Since there's no evidence but the lack of Spacenoids in government, do you believe side 3 simply elected Earth-centric politicians for decades while struggling for independence? Maybe they elected only a tiny and useless minority of the government? Maybe they voted which of the Earth-appointed candidates could represent them? Perhaps the major political parties on Earth only put up candidates that supported the establishment. Perhaps political movements that don't support Earth are banned or prevented from moving between colonies by Earth security forces. The possibilities within the term 'democracy' are endless. Most of them don't allow spacenoids any real self determination, despite the weight of population.

The narrative by 0096 is that space colonisation was the discarding of economic and political undesirables (Unicorn episode 4, 11:39). While this isn't necessarily true (diner guy certainly believes this is a simplification), that belief comes from somewhere. it's probably not helped by the rule of Earth people who don't even go into space, as we see over and over.
 
How do you think Spacenoids express their political will, then? Since there's no evidence but the lack of Spacenoids in government, do you believe side 3 simply elected Earth-centric politicians for decades while struggling for independence? Maybe they elected only a tiny and useless minority of the government? Maybe they voted which of the Earth-appointed candidates could represent them? Perhaps the major political parties on Earth only put up candidates that supported the establishment. Perhaps political movements that don't support Earth are banned or prevented from moving between colonies by Earth security forces. The possibilities within the term 'democracy' are endless. Most of them don't allow spacenoids any real self determination, despite the weight of population.

The narrative by 0096 is that space colonisation was the discarding of economic and political undesirables (Unicorn episode 4, 11:39). While this isn't necessarily true (diner guy certainly believes this is a simplification), that belief comes from somewhere. it's probably not helped by the rule of Earth people who don't even go into space, as we see over and over.
Prove it. Show where it say that colonies can't vote. RE: 0096 Episode 6 talks nothing about the colonies not voting. And episode 4? 11:39? It was about Minvera leaving her room. Before it is the some guys talking to Bright. Afterward it is in the desert. No one is talking about spacenoid no being able to vote or hold offices
I am not arguing this specific stance you insist I prove.
I am addressing the point. There is nothing about spacenoids not be able to vote. I got infraction for it. So I thought I should address it

Also the biggest evidences against only poor people live in the colonies is wait for... Van Braun.
A. Does this look like a poor people city
B. It is has one of the branches of AE. You know one of the biggest arms dealers in gundam.
 
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It isn't even a required part of 'spacenoids ruled from Earth by dorks' anyway. Spacenoids could just be gerrymandered into oblivion (JUST LIKE THE USA OMFG) or otherwise marginalised. All that matters is the interests of spacenoids are ignored or suppressed. But he can't argue with that - its core to the UC a narrative - so that's what he posts about.

Since he accidentally revealed he may not have seen Unicorn, and doesn't seem to have seen Char's Counterattack either, he may not be well informed.
 
Prove it. Show where it say that colonies can't vote. RE: 0096 Episode 6 talks nothing about the colonies not voting. And episode 4? 11:39? It was about Minvera leaving her room. Before it is the some guys talking to Bright. Afterward it is in the desert. No one is talking about spacenoid no being able to vote or hold offices

If you continue to pretend I'm claiming spacenoids can't vote, there will be unfortunate consequences. I personally don't believe they do, however it isn't required for spacenoids to be oppressed. It is irrelevant.

Episode 4 of the OVA, champ.

I am addressing the point. There is nothing about spacenoids not be able to vote. I got infraction for it. So I thought I should address it

Remember when people such as myself said it wasn't important and there is little evidence either way?

If you want to prove spacenoids participate in government, go ahead. Even in your asinine 'it's just like the USA' stance, there is plenty of scope to be marginalised.

My real question for you would be why it's so important to you that spacenoid greivances be invalid. I believe earlier you talked about how you thought Origin was bad because it showed the Earth security forces in colonies, but my understanding ist hat this has been part of the setting for decades (especially regarding Zeon Zum Deikun). Why do you seek to do this
 
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