Let's Read: David Weber's Honor Harrington

He needs a tough editor to tell him to trim the bloat.

Apparently the first 1/3 is a retelling of Field, so you could jump over that....
 
Is it just me or does it look like all the Weber-verse political systems have a slight tendency of converging towards hereditary aristocracies?
If I remember right Weber has mentioned he's something of a monarchist, though he seems to mean it in the Tolkeinesque sense where he thinks its good for pageantry and national pomp and circumstance and such.
 
They haven't conquered Erewhon. Erewhon is actually one of Manticore's most prominent allies in the region at this time.

Which is interesting, because Erewhon explicitly was ruled out in "On Basilisk Station" as a potential Havenite target because it is "practically a member of the Solarian League" and attacking them would mean war with their League allies. This seem to have just been forgotten between books, probably because someone asked, "So why is the Beowulf Medical Ethics Enforcement Fleet not glaring menacingly at Haven as well?"
 
Alternatively:

1) Haven may have been overestimating Erewhon's Solarian connections at the time.
2) Haven may have accomplished a diplomatic coup, or Erewhon a diplomatic faux pas, to cut Erewhon off from those connections.
3) Erewhon's increasingly close associations with Manticore may have caused some of their Solarian friends to be a bit less enthusiastic about them.
 
As I understand it, Manticore and the PRH are both social democracies. Manticore's is supported by their wormhole money and trade volume, plus they have lots of open space, so people are fairly free to develop how they want. Haven' social system serves as more of a patronage machine straight out of Rome. This is supported by taxing/stripping their client systems, leaving those more like the Warsaw Pact.

I think Weber's idea of a monarchy is more Romantic. They all eat honor, crap duty, and keep a stiff upper lip. Aristocrats are inevitably corrupt, stupid, or both (unless they've earned their title in battle). Besides needing the occasional Civilian Idiot Ball, he never goes into much detail about how the government works, save that it's a constitutional monarchy.
 
Manticore is a democracy insofar as the commoners are allowed to vote for part of the legislature, which can affect what laws are passed. However, they do not get to vote for who runs the government, which is decided by the aristocrats. Also, any commoner who receives too much state aid is forbidden to vote, as long as that state aid is not a kind socially acceptable to the aristocrats. (Obviously state subsidies for corporations owned by the rich are fine.)
 
Manticore is a democracy insofar as the commoners are allowed to vote for part of the legislature, which can affect what laws are passed. However, they do not get to vote for who runs the government, which is decided by the aristocrats. Also, any commoner who receives too much state aid is forbidden to vote, as long as that state aid is not a kind socially acceptable to the aristocrats. (Obviously state subsidies for corporations owned by the rich are fine.)

Though part of the reason why I think Flint may have moderated things is that all the protagonist allied people thought the commoners getting de facto control of the government was a good thing.
 
Honor looking kind of like a teenager despite being canonically fifty or so, old enough that even with prolong she looks mature), but it's not a big deal.

She uses Prolong, the life extension treatment of this universe. I believe she has some kind of trauma associated with it due to being a gangly teenager for 20+ years.

Basically the fact her dad was a Military Doctor and her mom is a geneticist (I think) from Beowulf (the planet that invented prolong) means she got the latest greatest version... which in the long term is great.

But it meant she aged slower and had a younger baseline appearance than her actual age peers. So not only does she look young enough to throw people off but the fact she got the latest greatest version so early compared to most means even those adapted to guessing actual ages based on prolong still probably peg her as 10ish years younger than she really is, especially early in her career.

Eventually this age stuff stops mattering much, maybe even during this book. But it was a big deal in the first books.

I don't remember Weber ever explicitly saying that Dolists were forbidden from working.
Do they ever show any non-dolists from Haven that aren't military or politicos?

Still that was part of the reason for conquering, it wasn't just robbing the planet, its the fact the conquered population was used to being productive and wouldn't immediately go on the dole just because they are used to working. Basically they have to conquer new planets to get a workforce and since they don't take slaves they are doing it to get people culturally indoctrinated to be productive, knowing the next generation will be conditioned to go on the dole (or join the military it seems).

Yeah, concrete and structural steel appear to be basically free, as does bland caloric foodstuffs. Even super-concrete and super-steel seem to be relatively mundane commodities in developed economies like Haven or Manticore. It's only the stuff like super-high-end electronics or ship parts that are real limiters, and that's really exotic sci-fi handwave alloys and such, or if you're a super-poor fringe world with no trade and no resources.

Yeah later in the series when we hear about Grayson there is all kinds of paragraphs and paragraphs of information about how Grayson is managing an economic miracle via utilizing last generation tech from Manticore.

It was mildly interesting when I first read it but remembering it now it almost feels like trying to "prove" trickle down economics works or something.
 
The literal first part of the first book is Weber ranting at us that Welfare Is Bad, and thing have not gotten better since.
 
She uses Prolong, the life extension treatment of this universe. I believe she has some kind of trauma associated with it due to being a gangly teenager for 20+ years.
Yeah, I know, but the point is that even by the series start, she's forty-one years old. And, yes, looking much younger than that and very insecure about her appearance. But, well, anime covers tend to draw everyone looking youthful even by that standard.

The literal first part of the first book is Weber ranting at us that Welfare Is Bad, and thing have not gotten better since.
This is true.

Weber manages to shut up about his bad economics for long enough at a stretch that a lot of readers just sort of screen it out, as we see here in the discussion of the text. But it's not great.
 
Weber, until he corrected it, also gave all his ships a density of marshmellows. The thing is, as it's Horatio Hornblower IN SPACE! .. you can't interrogate too deeply the books.

The thing is, you have to interrogate the Honor books deeper than Hornblower just to actually read them. The aesthetic is Hornblower, but the content is much different. The obvious reason is simply the arc of Honor's and Hornblower's careers. Hornblower's arc starts as a midshipman. He doesn't get a command until three books in. Honor has a ship command in the first book and rapidly progresses to squadron command, which Hornblower wouldn't do until nine books in. Hornblower didn't make admiral until his very last book.

Similarly, Weber does a lot more with things like politics and economics in his books in a way Forester didn't. By making them more prominent he...well, makes them more prominent and invites a deeper analysis of them. Much of the Hornblower books revolve around single-ship actions, or are at least tightly focused on them, whereas more than half of the Weber books are at least squadron-level and there's probably a half-dozen Trafalgar-level beatings handed out. The wider scope demands deeper thought of the reader to visualize and understand. That demand is a double-edged sword.
 
The thing is, you have to interrogate the Honor books deeper than Hornblower just to actually read them. The aesthetic is Hornblower, but the content is much different. The obvious reason is simply the arc of Honor's and Hornblower's careers. Hornblower's arc starts as a midshipman. He doesn't get a command until three books in. Honor has a ship command in the first book and rapidly progresses to squadron command, which Hornblower wouldn't do until nine books in. Hornblower didn't make admiral until his very last book.

Similarly, Weber does a lot more with things like politics and economics in his books in a way Forester didn't. By making them more prominent he...well, makes them more prominent and invites a deeper analysis of them. Much of the Hornblower books revolve around single-ship actions, or are at least tightly focused on them, whereas more than half of the Weber books are at least squadron-level and there's probably a half-dozen Trafalgar-level beatings handed out. The wider scope demands deeper thought of the reader to visualize and understand. That demand is a double-edged sword.

I'm going to disagree on the simple fact that Weber doesn't write deeper in a lot of his books flat. I enjoy a bunch but they only stand up so much.

(I've admittedly had this debate with posters in this thread a long time ago on other venues and my views have changed a bit)

Weber wants to imply a deeper works where things happen out of trends and decisions.

The thing is that often those don't make sense. (Cf anything Mesa)

I guess I'm agreeing in a different direction because my enjoyment of almost all of his books is the acknowledgement that you can't look deeper because you won't find coherence.
 
That's what makes it worse! It's not even a conscious choice, he's just throwing all his biases at our faces!

Sure is, but, I mean, I don't read books sometimes to deeply think about them. Sometimes you just want an action thriller.

I should note, though, I'm not entirely sure Weber isn't trying. I just think as readers you have to sometimes accept Weber's limitations if you like it*

* But I admit I really like mil sci-fi so I'm used to just rolling my eyes at the politics as long as it's not too bad.
 
I'm going to disagree on the simple fact that Weber doesn't write deeper in a lot of his books flat.

I mean I don't really disagree that he's not handling the subjects particularly deeply, but he is in fact putting his grubby mitts all over them, and those subjects thus become things to be discussed or considered rather than background noise, as they would have been in a Hornblower (or an RCN) novel.

Put another way, Weber makes you notice, even if you choose to gloss over it.
 
The thing is, you have to interrogate the Honor books deeper than Hornblower just to actually read them. The aesthetic is Hornblower, but the content is much different. The obvious reason is simply the arc of Honor's and Hornblower's careers. Hornblower's arc starts as a midshipman. He doesn't get a command until three books in. Honor has a ship command in the first book and rapidly progresses to squadron command, which Hornblower wouldn't do until nine books in. Hornblower didn't make admiral until his very last book.

As I keep noting, this is a bit more complicated than people think because the Hornblower books' publication order and chronological order are quite distinct. The first published book has Hornblower as a captain. It's just that Forester then alternated between books and stories written further along in Hornblower's careers and books and stories written towards the beginning, producing a pretty good picture of his move up the ranks with all the stalling and sidetracks that happen along the way, while Weber just keeps rushing Honor up, up, UP the ranks.
 
As I keep noting, this is a bit more complicated than people think because the Hornblower books' publication order and chronological order are quite distinct. The first published book has Hornblower as a captain. It's just that Forester then alternated between books and stories written further along in Hornblower's careers and books and stories written towards the beginning, producing a pretty good picture of his move up the ranks with all the stalling and sidetracks that happen along the way, while Weber just keeps rushing Honor up, up, UP the ranks.
For reference here's wikipedia's chart of it. Looks like a headache.

Put another way, Weber makes you notice, even if you choose to gloss over it.
This. I think a lot of sci fi works have the issue of wanting cool toys whose pre-reqs would realistically eliminate scarcity with even the most pathetic of trickle down economy, but still want scarcity to exist to justify conflicts that use the cool toys. The difference is that HH awkwardly puts a spotlight on it. If most people are on the dole, who is churning out dreadnoughts? Why can't that be used to churn out the dole? Why would they waste it on dreadnought production if the pressing demand to satisfy the dole is so important?

It is true that Russia was hoping for a three day short victorious war where Ukraine would quickly surrender and add their population and GDP to Russia, but even outside that you had things Putin's flagging approvals following Covid-19, perennial revanchist desires and paranoia about NATO, the strategic interest in a warm water port, etc etc. It wasn't just about material needs, and that Russia continues to prosecute the conflict even after it has obviously become a huge net negative on multiple levels for the foreseeable future says as much.
 
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The thing is, you have to interrogate the Honor books deeper than Hornblower just to actually read them. The aesthetic is Hornblower, but the content is much different. The obvious reason is simply the arc of Honor's and Hornblower's careers. Hornblower's arc starts as a midshipman. He doesn't get a command until three books in. Honor has a ship command in the first book and rapidly progresses to squadron command, which Hornblower wouldn't do until nine books in. Hornblower didn't make admiral until his very last book.
Yeah. This is why I think David Drake's RCN series does a much better job of capturing "Horatio Hornblower but in space," or perhaps more accurately "Aubrey and Maturin but in space."

There's a lot more focus on Daniel Leary receiving single-ship commands or even working as a subordinate officer, in a setting that much more closely resembles the politics of Georgian England (with an admixture of late Republican Rome, because Drake liked to write what he knew). Things like the financial constraints of officers on half-pay, the class divisions between the aristocracy, the middle class, and the working-class oiks who crew the ships, and the way dueling culture shapes society, show up much more prominently in Drake's narrative, while they are nonexistent or nearly so in Weber's.

Whereas Harrington and her setting share basically nothing with Hornblower but his initials and the perfunctory existence of a hereditary aristocracy.

Similarly, Weber does a lot more with things like politics and economics in his books in a way Forester didn't. By making them more prominent he...well, makes them more prominent and invites a deeper analysis of them. Much of the Hornblower books revolve around single-ship actions, or are at least tightly focused on them, whereas more than half of the Weber books are at least squadron-level and there's probably a half-dozen Trafalgar-level beatings handed out. The wider scope demands deeper thought of the reader to visualize and understand. That demand is a double-edged sword.
This is also true.

I mean I don't really disagree that he's not handling the subjects particularly deeply, but he is in fact putting his grubby mitts all over them, and those subjects thus become things to be discussed or considered rather than background noise, as they would have been in a Hornblower (or an RCN) novel.

Put another way, Weber makes you notice, even if you choose to gloss over it.
In Weber's defense, C.S. Forester had the massive advantage of writing in a setting that already existed. He didn't need to extrapolate the politics of Georgian Britain or Napoleonic France, because they were already quite well documented and no more than 120-140 years in the past at the time he started writing.

Weber has to make up his stories from nothing, so he's forced to integrate his ideas about history, politics, and economics into the story. Which, well, they're not great.

This. I think a lot of sci fi works have the issue of wanting cool toys whose pre-reqs would realistically eliminate scarcity with even the most pathetic of trickle down economy, but still want scarcity to exist to justify conflicts that use the cool toys. The difference is that HH awkwardly puts a spotlight on it. If most people are on the dole, who is churning out dreadnoughts? Why can't that be used to churn out the dole? Why would they waste it on dreadnought production if the pressing demand to satisfy the dole is so important?
Well, Weber's answer, which admittedly only makes real sense if you're a Republican, is:

"Haven has to keep up a massive military-industrial complex. Because only by conquering places with functional economies to loot can it keep the BLS going for more than a few more years at a time before the economy collapses entirely. So Haven was investing massively in both 'welfare' and war machines, the way I imagine the USSR did because of course the USSR was a welfare state exactly like the 1990s Democrats surely wanted to create in America, and also because I never really had more than a superficial understanding of the Soviet Union and its history apart from the awareness that they were pointing big scary missiles at me, because the Cuban Missile Crisis happened when I was ten and it justifiably scared the hell out of me. So anyway, Haven's oligarchy devotes a greatly disproportionate share of their subpar GDP to the military, and all the rest to a mad scramble to keep the Dole going."

We can, of course, pick at this all day. As you point out, it invites the question of how Haven maintains dreadnought production at all.
 
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Unlike Hornblower and other military fiction, this isn't military fiction. It's space opera. (With some hard-ish sci-fi tacked on at audience demand.) Except instead of love triangles, we have multi-ship engagements. The characters are tissue-thin, their motives are either Good or Bad, the background exists to sing backup, and the whole point is the battle scenes.

I still kinda want an H.M.S. Pinafore set here...
 
I find it funny how the antagonists are bitching about people on the dole in a way that's supposed to signal that as a bad thing.

But the big political tug of war is between the welfare budget and the military budget the bad guys want to attack Manticore. So what's the ideal political status quo from this series perspective? Less dole and more Haven blowing shit up. Or more dole and less of that, but you're giving money to the poors?

Like I'm sure that it involves Haven being perpetually bitchmade no matter what, but I'm not sure how that translates to a more holistic political worldview.
 
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I find it funny how the antagonists are bitching about people on the dole in a way that's supposed to signal that as a bad thing.

But the big political tug of war is between the welfare budget and the military budget the bad guys want to attack Manticore. So what's the ideal political status quo from this series perspective? Less dole and more Haven blowing shit up. Or more dole and less of that, but you're giving money to the poors?

Like I'm sure that it involves Haven being perpetually bitchmade no matter what, but I'm not sure how that translates to a more holistic political worldview.



The BLS was abolished in the 1910s PD. From Weber:

The degree to which the Havenite economy has flowered following the cease-fire is largely the result of the removal of highly inefficient central-planning bureaucracies and the ruthless diversion of available funds from the maintenance of the welfare system into a program deliberately designed to generate reinvestment and development even at the expense of considerable real suffering among the largely defanged Dolists of the Mob (those that were left after "Citizen Admiral Clusterbomb" got done with them, at any rate). Indeed, one reason for the "Pierre reforms" (which Pritchart has continued) was to force the Dolists to become productive or starve.

Standard 90s neoliberal thinking.

ETA: Moved it into a spoiler, since uh.. this spoils books .. 4 through 9?
 
I seem to recall that Manticore, ironically, also has a government that provides considerable public assistance money of various types, which they can fairly easily fund because the Manticore Wormhole Junction is a magic money-generating machine as far as their economy is concerned... However, they, being the nation of the righteous and sensible by Weberian standards, have a law that you can't vote unless you pay more in net income taxes than you receive in public assistance.

However, I've struggled more than once to find textual support for this position, to the point where I am now unsure I'm even remembering it correctly.

If I'm right about that, of course, it makes it all the more obvious how Manticore could easily control its electorate and maintain a ruling class that is just as blatantly hereditary if not more so than the Havenite system. Which, of course, it is, what with being a formally defined hereditary aristocracy with actual legal titles and everything.

Because all you have to do under the system I think Manticore has... Is cut personal income taxes, game who receives public assistance, and potentially rely mainly on corporate rather than individual taxes, and you can leave most of the citizenry out of the electorate.
 
Because all you have to do under the system I think Manticore has... Is cut personal income taxes, game who receives public assistance, and potentially rely mainly on corporate rather than individual taxes, and you can leave most of the citizenry out of the electorate.

But why, the part that has to get elected doesn't really get to do much. All the major stuff is coming from the unelected aristocrat half of their parliament.
 
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