Let's Read: David Weber's Honor Harrington

Admittedly fuel might last a long but that doesn't mean food, medical supplies, ammo and other supplies will last nearly as long which would also limits though beyond how long a ship can go without getting supplies and ships are not crewed by robots which means the crews will need time to recover from battle and any losses to manpower restored.
 
Admittedly fuel might last a long but that doesn't mean food, medical supplies, ammo and other supplies will last nearly as long which would also limits though beyond how long a ship can go without getting supplies and ships are not crewed by robots which means the crews will need time to recover from battle and any losses to manpower restored.
Yes, but for deep strike operations you aren't fighting repeated battles over a long period necessarily (or if you are you're hitting soft targets). The ships are massive enough relative to their crews that including more onboard stores for crew survival isn't that big of a problem (a thousand people can eat something like a ton of food in a day, but adding 100 more tons of food to an 800,000 ton battlecruiser isn't that bad).

Like... I'm not saying there are zero logistical complications associated with long range operations, OK? That would be stupid. But it's pretty clear in-setting that Weber tried to have it both ways- to have it be easy for ships to range far out form their bases, but also to ensure that there wouldn't be any fast-moving strategic warfare based on deep strike tactics.
 
Like... I'm not saying there are zero logistical complications associated with long range operations, OK? That would be stupid. But it's pretty clear in-setting that Weber tried to have it both ways- to have it be easy for ships to range far out form their bases, but also to ensure that there wouldn't be any fast-moving strategic warfare based on deep strike tactics.

Yes except this makes kind of perfect sense because the universe makes a big deal out of strategic mobility being wormhole-dependent, creating natural chokepoints that can be defended and which any deep-strike operation would have to overcome defenses both on the way in and the way out. People are looking at the wormholes and seeing their deep-strike units being cut off from home and destroyed, negating whatever long-term advantage gained by short-term loss.
 
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Yeah wormhole junctions and the more common wormhole bridges do seem create choke points both to defend and exploit and that gravitonic disturbances caused by gravity waves and massive stellar objects will rip apart any ship that comes too close while in hyperspace seem to inflict further restrictions on hyperspace travel as does that some of the hyperspace bands seem to have adverse effects on people.
 
Yes except this makes kind of perfect sense because the universe makes a big deal out of strategic mobility being wormhole-dependent, creating natural chokepoints that can be defended and which any deep-strike operation would have to overcome defenses both on the way in and the way out. People are looking at the wormholes and seeing their deep-strike units being cut off from home and destroyed, negating whatever long-term advantage gained by short-term loss.

I'm sorry, but I don't think strategic mobility has anything to do with wormholes.

At All Costs ends with Haven deciding to just mass transit to Manticore through hyperspace. There is no revolution in technology that makes this possible; they just gather up their remaining ships and go all-in. Since they don't go through the wormhole, there's no chokepoint, and they can emerge from hyper wherever they want, so static defenses are less of a big deal.

Haven could have begun the first war by deep striking Manticore with all the ships. Or almost all the ships. Leave a bunch of the old battleships behind to prevent rebellion, keep Home Fleet where it is, and just bring everyone else through hyperspace to a pre-planned rendezvous point. Send a bunch of freighters along to ensure that you don't run out of missiles.

I'm a big believer in Suspension of Disbelief, but but there were better ways to handle this. One of them would be to make it so ships could only travel through hyperspace along certain routes, so it's physically impossible to go directly from Haven to Manticore without dropping back into normal space at some point. Another would be to make ships require fuel, so forward bases are actually important.

Yeah wormhole junctions and the more common wormhole bridges do seem create choke points both to defend and exploit and that gravitonic disturbances caused by gravity waves and massive stellar objects will rip apart any ship that comes too close while in hyperspace seem to inflict further restrictions on hyperspace travel as does that some of the hyperspace bands seem to have adverse effects on people.

Just...don't fight in the choke point.

It'll take you longer to get there through hyperspace, but that's okay. Instead of messing around in twenty little systems, you can go directly to your opponent's capital and just win the war.

By the way, I'm about to travel out of town, so if I don't reply to anyone, that's why.
 
Did the entire fleet make it or did they have ships drop out? Wear and tear on all the parts, but more importantly nodes is an excellent way to balance distance. Sure you have the fuel reserves to make a long trip but if you do so with multiple ships you can count on some of them dropping out along the way. Not to mention there might be even more problems on the return trip let alone units that take combat damage so a full assault deep strike sounds glorious but that also means if something goes wrong, none of your fleet is making it home as battle damage is likely to greatly hamper a return trip if not make it impossible.

So instead you pick away at the edges, try to establish forward bases so you are dealing with less wear and tear and those more units in a task force that are active and if you push far enough you give a return base for any deep strike to go to.
 
From what I recall what Haven pulled off in the second war was only possible in the first place due to advancing technology that was developed in the first war mostly by the other side which makes it more likely that if Haven had done that in the first war it would just result in the invasion fleet quite possibly getting wiped out by the Manticorian defenses and the Manticorian Home Fleet leaving Haven at a disadvantage to the counter attack and what was pulled off in the second war as a opening act did not in fact ensure victory and force negotiations as was intended.
 
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There is a LOT of 'stuff' in the Honorverse Weber just didn't think through, sadly. This is just one...
 
From what I recall what Haven pulled off in the second war was only possible in the first place due to advancing technology that was developed in the first war mostly by the other side...
I mean, if Haven had just thrown overwhelming weight of metal at Manticore proper at the very beginning of the first war, they'd have had a major technological disadvantage, but all those Manty superweapons would have been largely out of play. It might have gone badly but they'd have had at least a chance- and realistically if they knew they couldn't win that way, they should have reacted by trying to uptech, not by hoping that they could somehow achieve a better result in a widespread attritional war of slow, grinding operations.

It's not a foregone conclusion that Haven WOULD have won by just going for the throat with a single massive offensive, but the point is that both sides largely ignored anything aside from the shoving match on the front lines. For years there wasn't even much of anything like the Cutworm raids from the second war, deep-penetration raids intended to actually inflict meaningful loss on enemy logistics.

"Deep strike" doesn't necessarily mean "single mad death-or-glory charge into the teeth of unfamiliar enemy defenses."
 
To be fair, regarding that specific example, the fleet on station may have only been there for a few weeks, and having a fleet standing still for a few weeks may be easy on their endurance compared to actually flying around at cruising speed.

Ship endurance can be about time ("get home by ___ or run out of food") or fuel or some combination of both.

But in the main, you're still right- Weber talks a lot about fleet bases, but in practice ships seem to have more than enough range to largely ignore basing and travel great distances in a single 'hop.' Long enough that even allowing for round trip capability and a generous allowance of fuel to Do The Thing at your destination, the effective combat radius of ships is more than enough to permit a lot of 'island hopping.'

What I was more getting at was that they were able to more or less establish a temporary base there and set up shop for at least a month, but likely much more. Since remember, they had to be there waiting in case something kicked off and one of the ships meant to alert them had to go get them. Which meant that they had to be in a specific place for a long period of time. Sure, they could have had relief fleets show up to replace them from time to time, but this means they have the kind of logistics needed to base a fleet basically in the middle of space for a fairly extended period of time. Which means that the 'islands' of systems are more or less unnecessary for any kind of real fleet buildup. And mind you, this fleet had to be out there for an extended period of time, completely undetected in a system with very constant traffic. This actually makes those deep strikes much easier because you can just do your fleet gathering not particularly far from the enemy system and then hyper in.
 
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The Honor Of The Queen: Chapter 25
Well, we're back. I just finished a video review of Mass Effect 2 that's over an hour long, so now it's time to relax with some more of The Honor of the Queen! What will this chapter hold? Will Theisman finally get the respect he deserves? Will Honor get into fisticuffs with any more men of straw? Let's find out!

Chapter 25 opens with an introduction to "Captain of the Faithful" Williams, whom the book immediately lets us know is a bad person:

Captain of the Faithful Williams paced back and forth across the command room and gnawed his lower lip. He'd been picked for this post in no small part for his piety—now that very piety fanned his fury at the disaster wreaked by a woman. And violently though he tried to deny it, there was fear in his fury. Fear for himself and for God's Work. The Apostate admiral whoring for the Manticoran bitch had stopped demanding his surrender; that could only mean they were prepared to try something more direct.

But what? Williams didn't know, and ignorance shuddered in his blood like another layer of anger. That bitch! If she hadn't come back—back to a star system neither she nor her whore of a queen had any business in—Masada would have completed God's Work. But she had come back, she and her accursed ships, and smashed the entire remaining Navy except Virtue and Thunder in two short days. She'd set herself against God's Work and Will, just as women always had, and Williams cursed her with silent ferocity as he paced.

Hearing him refer to the Grayson people as "apostates" is giving me unpleasant flashbacks to Dragon Age. I also like his constant referring to Honor as a "whore" and a "bitch," just so we know that this person is, in fact, an incredibly complex and nuanced individual. We then cut to a scene of the marines preparing for the drop, which means...you guessed it:



We then briefly cut back to Captain Williams, who suddenly picks up the incoming dropships, with two pinnaces leading the way:

Quad-mounted fifty-centimeter rockets ripple-fired like brief-lived, flame-tailed meteors. Twelve of them blasted ahead of each pinnace—twenty-four one-thousand-kilo warheads with a yield man once could have gotten only from atomic weapons—and the pinnaces charged onward down their wakes.

Good thing Weber mentioned the exact diamter of the rockets and their warhead yields, otherwise my suspension of disbelief would have been shattered.

The final rockets smashed home, and the pinnaces' bow-mounted pulsers opened fire. Thirty thousand thirty-millimeter shells per second ripped into the smoke and dust billowing in Blackbird's thin atmosphere, and then they flashed directly over their targeting points and the plasma bombs dropped.
'

30,000 rounds per minute? That's equal to 500 rounds per second, which seems just a tad implausible, even given FUTURE TECH. I'm reminded of the first time I played Jane's F/A-18, when I had no idea of just how high the M61's rate of fire was. "400 rounds of ammo?" I thought to myself. "That sounds like plenty!" Then, after a few seconds if firing, I was all like, "Hey, where did all my ammo go?" It turns out that, at 6,000 rounds per minutes, 400 rounds only gives you four seconds of firing time!

Oh, and the constant switches of perspective every other paragraph (or in instance, ONE SENTENCE) in this chapter are extremely annoying. Is it REALLY necessary to show every instance of the enemy commander soiling himself in terror at our heroes' assault? It also has the effect of making the battle scenes harder to follow.

Decoy Flight screamed upward, then pushed over and came in again. The remaining Masadan surface arrays saw them coming, but even as Colonel Harris screamed a warning to his troops, the anti-radiation missiles blasted off the racks. Six seconds later, they put out Blackbird Base's eyes, and then the pinnaces rolled back onto their original attack headings and bored straight in.

The Masadan defenders went flat, rolling off into side passages wherever possible, and then the entire base leapt and convulsed again. This time each pinnace fired only a single missile, but those missiles' onboard radar took them straight into the airlocks their predecessors had blown open and down the passages inside them at eight thousand MPS. They carried no explosives, but their super-dense "warheads" struck the first sets of internal blast doors with the force of twenty-three and a half tons of old-style TNT apiece, and another two hundred odd Masadans died as the doors disintegrated in white-hot gas and murderous shrapnel.

"Anti-radiation missiles"...MORE reminders of playing Jane's F/A-18. It always annoyed me when I'd launch an AGM-88 HARM at an S-300 SAM site, and then they'd shut down their radars, causing my missile to target some worthless anti-aircraft radar instead.

The SPESS MEHREENS kick ass, with their powered armour allowing them to shrug-off small arms fire.

The Marines' belt-fed tri-barrels pumped out a hundred four-millimeter explosive darts per second, with a muzzle velocity of two thousand MPS. That kind of firepower could chew through armored bulkheads like a hyper-velocity band saw; what it did to unarmored vac suits was indescribable.

Again, it sure is good that the book specified the exactl calibre, rate of fire, and muzzle velocity of this weapons, or MUH IMMERSION would be just COMPLETELT obliterated! Like one time I was reading this Tom Clancy novel and there was a scene where someone shot some guy WITHOUT the book describing the the gun's rifling (left-hand twist or right-hand twist?), the cartridge's maximum chamber pressure, and whether or not the shooter was using hollow points or full metal jacket rounds. I immediately threw the book in the trash and sent Mr. Clancy a VERY strongly-worded letter, which is something that totally happened that I did not just make up right now.

Colonel Harris is leading the defence of Blackbird, and his CO Williams is hysterically screaming prayers for God to punish "Satan's whores," which sounds like a good name for an all-female thrash metal band. As if we didn't already know that Williams is a bad person, he closes the doors to the control room and shoot someone who tries to flee. And he doesn't just shoot him once. No, he empties the entire magazine into him.

"This is Captain Susan Hibson of the Royal Manticoran Marine Corps," the cold, flat voice said. "We are now in possession of your central control room. We now control your blast doors, sensors, and life support. Lay down your arms immediately or face the consequences."

"Oh, God," someone whimpered, and Harris swallowed hard.

"W-what do we do, Sir?" His exec was trapped on the far side of the blast door behind the colonel. Harris could almost feel the man's struggle to suppress his own terror, and he sighed.

"There's only one thing we can do," he said heavily. "Lay down your weapons, boys. It's over."

I must say, as I fight scene this is a bit...underwhelming. The constant changes in perspective were jarring, and Weber has a tendency to describe action in rather clinical terms at times, in a "X used weapon Y to kill Z" after-action report sort of way. I guess that's to be expected from a book series that's largely focused on space battles, not ground battles.
 
Incidentally, Baen's Bar has gone down due to certain people (like Tom Kratman), using it to advocate political violence over Trump losing the election.

Oh dear.
 
Well, we're back. I just finished a video review of Mass Effect 2 that's over an hour long, so now it's time to relax with some more of The Honor of the Queen! What will this chapter hold? Will Theisman finally get the respect he deserves? Will Honor get into fisticuffs with any more men of straw? Let's find out!

Chapter 25 opens with an introduction to "Captain of the Faithful" Williams, whom the book immediately lets us know is a bad person:



Hearing him refer to the Grayson people as "apostates" is giving me unpleasant flashbacks to Dragon Age. I also like his constant referring to Honor as a "whore" and a "bitch," just so we know that this person is, in fact, an incredibly complex and nuanced individual.

I think it would be kind of cool if the Graysons and the Masadans both called each other "Apostate", just to emphasize that this is an ongoing religious schism.

It would also be neat if the narrative emphasized the many, many similarities between the two worlds, even as both of them insisted that no, no, they had nothing in common with the vile Apostate.

The good guys whose names we don't know fight bad guys whose names we don't know. Weber provides lots and lots of unnecessary detail.

Less can be more. Sometimes- sometimes- that little bit of detail can be interesting. The key is to know when to stop.

Weber doesn't know when to stop.

Also, battles are more engaging when we know and care about the people fighting, rather than having a set of complete strangers who will be dead at the end. There's nothing wrong with the time-honored practice of introducing a mook only to immediately kill them, but we don't know anything about the people killing them either.

Weber and Bujold are opposites in this regard; getting a name out of Bujold is like pulling teeth, to the point that we still don't know the name of Aral Vorkosigan's mother. Weber, on the other hand, provides a name for the third assistant missile officer who is only ever mentioned twice.

Both practices are equally bad.
 
Thank you! I did not know.

The fact that we had to wait until ACC to figure that out is more than a little annoying. So is the fact that- correct me if I'm wrong- we still don't know the name of Aral Vorkosigan's first wife.
Well not her first name, we do know that she was born a Vorrutyer, since she was Ges Vorrutyer 's sister. Other than that, it hasn't come up on screen, er, page.

And who wants to be pinned down in case it needs to change to make a scene work later?
 
I must say, as I fight scene this is a bit...underwhelming. The constant changes in perspective were jarring, and Weber has a tendency to describe action in rather clinical terms at times, in a "X used weapon Y to kill Z" after-action report sort of way. I guess that's to be expected from a book series that's largely focused on space battles, not ground battles.
AFAIK, Weber has never actually been in the profession of arms, let alone heard a shot fired, so combat (especially amongst infantry) is an abstract thing to his mind, a semi-orderly process decided by tactics, technology, firepower and, to a lesser degree, discipline and psychology. I know people have mentioned David Drake and the Hammer Slammers franchise in this thread before, particularly how parts of it were Drake essentially processing his Vietnam experiences (traumas) by rewriting them, but one thing that comes through in every combat scene he writes is his understanding that the essence of combat is chaos and blood, a realm where things getting fucked up (in multiple senses of the phrase) is the inherent nature of the beast and you simply have to accept that when you start pulling triggers.
Weber's writing style is a little mechanistic and detached, as you might expect of someone who came up through wargaming and reading all those AARs, so it lends itself moderately well to semi-modern naval combat, which is mostly a matter of pushing buttons and watching missile-icons fly towards sensor-blips and mostly forgetting that each 'contact' contains X number of people. It's... not really suited to getting down in the blood and ash with the grunts and giving a really visceral sense of men and metal in collision at the personal level.
If he wanted to showcase the sheer overwhelming power of RMMC battle-armour against Masada's primitive ground-combat capabilities, where (semi-)poor Masadan grunts try to hold their ground against what were effectively man-shaped tanks when their own weapons were as effective as squirt-guns, the atavistic dread of realising these things were functionally unstoppable, unkillable juggernauts that could and did slaughter everything that presumed to appear before them, the doomed, futile, despairing courage of the men who tried anyway only to die uselessly in Manticoran targeting-reticles... well, this is one of those sequences where he really, really might have wanted to talk to Drake or another veteran about getting into a grunt's head and how to portray that kind of helpless horror.
 
My favorite thing was some people on the Bar wondering if David Weber was alternately a specops soldier or a Naval Intelligence spook because they thought his writing on both were "Super realistic". I laughed hard.
 
Chapter 25 opens with an introduction to "Captain of the Faithful" Williams, whom the book immediately lets us know is a bad person:

Hearing him refer to the Grayson people as "apostates" is giving me unpleasant flashbacks to Dragon Age. I also like his constant referring to Honor as a "whore" and a "bitch," just so we know that this person is, in fact, an incredibly complex and nuanced individual...
Yeah. In fairness, this novel predates Dragon Age, and "apostate" is a fairly common word for well-established religious fanatics to use to describe people who aren't following their own fanatical party line.

Good thing Weber mentioned the exact diamter of the rockets and their warhead yields, otherwise my suspension of disbelief would have been shattered.
Devil's advocacy:

There's something to be said for quoting those numbers just to give people a concept of what's happening if they already understand military weaponry fairly well. There's a big difference between "thing go boom" when it's a few ounces of explosive versus a few tons of explosive. And things like air-launched rocket weapons can fall anywhere on that spectrum. Speaking from experience of having tried to write "thing go boom" while being a civilian...

It can be actively easier and less intrusive to just say "like fifty pounds of high explosives" than to try to convey the effects of fifty pounds of HE clearly without doing so. It's arguably desirable to convey the effects some other way, but it can be a pain in the ass. And I (or Weber) would have been highly likely to fuck it up.

30,000 rounds per minute? That's equal to 500 rounds per second, which seems just a tad implausible, even given FUTURE TECH. I'm reminded of the first time I played Jane's F/A-18, when I had no idea of just how high the M61's rate of fire was. "400 rounds of ammo?" I thought to myself. "That sounds like plenty!" Then, after a few seconds if firing, I was all like, "Hey, where did all my ammo go?" It turns out that, at 6,000 rounds per minutes, 400 rounds only gives you four seconds of firing time!
That's thirty thousand rounds from multiple guns, though. Given that Honorverse pulser weapon ammo doesn't have a big block of extra weight on the back for the propellant charge that kicks the bullet into motion, I can sort of see it. But yeah, Jane's F/A-18 flashbacks are the order of the day for the Honorverse, because both Weber and that game are drawing from the same inspiration.

Oh, and the constant switches of perspective every other paragraph (or in instance, ONE SENTENCE) in this chapter are extremely annoying. Is it REALLY necessary to show every instance of the enemy commander soiling himself in terror at our heroes' assault? It also has the effect of making the battle scenes harder to follow.
While I don't find it hard to follow, I strongly agree that this is a bad artistic choice.

Colonel Harris is leading the defence of Blackbird, and his CO Williams is hysterically screaming prayers for God to punish "Satan's whores," which sounds like a good name for an all-female thrash metal band. As if we didn't already know that Williams is a bad person, he closes the doors to the control room and shoot someone who tries to flee. And he doesn't just shoot him once. No, he empties the entire magazine into him.
As modern police demonstrate, this is actually very common when trigger-happy crazed assholes with displaced grudges see an opportunity to murder someone. They generally don't just pull the trigger once and have done with it.
 
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That's thirty thousand rounds from multiple guns, though. Given that Honorverse pulser weapon ammo doesn't have a big block of extra weight on the back for the propellant charge that kicks the bullet into motion, I can sort of see it.
Also the rounds are quite small, relying on an extremely high velocity rather than mass to do damage.
 
Also the rounds are quite small, relying on an extremely high velocity rather than mass to do damage.
If they're thirty millimeters in diameter (and the ones described are), then they can't be that small. Though to be fair a pinnace is built to the same scale as a jumbo jet from what I remember, so there's more room for ammo in there than there would be in something like an F-18.
 
There's something to be said for quoting those numbers just to give people a concept of what's happening if they already understand military weaponry fairly well. There's a big difference between "thing go boom" when it's a few ounces of explosive versus a few tons of explosive. And things like air-launched rocket weapons can fall anywhere on that spectrum. Speaking from experience of having tried to write "thing go boom" while being a civilian...

It can be actively easier and less intrusive to just say "like fifty pounds of high explosives" than to try to convey the effects of fifty pounds of HE clearly without doing so. It's arguably desirable to convey the effects some other way, but it can be a pain in the ass. And I (or Weber) would have been highly likely to fuck it up.

Vagueness can be helpful here. Perhaps Weber could describe it, from a technical perspective, and then show it, from a Masadan perspective? He likes rapid viewpoint switches. I have mixed feelings on whether they are a good idea, but one thing that they are useful for is rapidly showing the same scene from a different POV.

For the Manty pilot, this is a technical exercise in ordinance delivery, and the pilot thinks about numbers and yields. For the Masadan soldier, this is a trip to hell, and seeing the chaos and bloodshed is far more powerful than having it described.

The biggest weakness of having many points of view is that readers are not equally invested in every character, so there can be a kind of collective shrug when the people we don't know are fighting and dying. The advantages of being able to provide more information and perspectives have to be weighed against the advantage of a more tightly focused narrative.

Zahn does this well, in my opinion. Weber is a little too eager to give us more and more names and viewpoints, to the point that it can overwhelm the reader.

Honor of the Queen is peak Weber, but peak Weber still loves his detailed descriptions.

I was going to complain about Williams, too, but Weber mostly pulls off the Masadans. These are people whose complaints about Grayson are "it's not theocratic enough" and "they think women have souls".
 
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Looking in the Baen's Bar thing, the right-wing and Baen authors are all claiming that it was a hit-pieces and it's all the SJWs lying but at the same time Baen itself closed the Bar because the posts MAY have been unlawful and so that the "no hitting" rule would not be violated... Which I don't really understand why they'd need to close the Bar down themselves if it was all a lie.

Or if they could just like, delete the offending posts and report the people involved.

I did have a laugh at the official statement saying that clearly the Bar wasn't as fault because 'nobody on the Bar complained' and then in the statement on the bar about the closure, say that the "may" be "unlawful posts" were stuff that "nobody agreed with", which implies people were complaining.
 
Looking in the Baen's Bar thing, the right-wing and Baen authors are all claiming that it was a hit-pieces and it's all the wonderful people lying but at the same time Baen itself closed the Bar because the posts MAY have been unlawful and so that the "no hitting" rule would not be violated... Which I don't really understand why they'd need to close the Bar down themselves if it was all a lie.
The authors are not the company. The Barflies* are not the company.

Even now, a sizeable fraction of Baen's readership is NOT so far down the alt-right rabbit hole as to be okay with "I'm buying books from a company that runs a free webforum that acts as a platform for people endorsing terrorism." They're not all there for the Tom Kratman books. As such, Baen's actual corporate management knows or can easily deduce that it's gotta do some serious damage control here.

"No no, this is all the Dread Ess Jay Double Yous from Cancelculturestan lying about us" is NOT effective damage control against something like this. The Liebstandarte SS Tom Kratman happens to think it is. But they're wrong, because they're dumbasses in addition to being political fanatics.

So the decisions made by Baen Books, the corporation, are assuredly not going to align with the stance taken by the actual right-wing-nut Barflies whose nuttery is involved here. Baen Books profited from selling books to (and in some cases from) those people, but that doesn't mean it's going to act like an ideological arm of their movement if the cost of doing so is getting bulldozed.
______________________________

*The Barflies (Baen fandom term for the people who frequent the Bar)

Or if they could just like, delete the offending posts and report the people involved.
Baen Books' management faces, at this point, a massively scaled up version of the problem Spacebattles had with the revelation of the uh, Conservative Politics Mega-PM Thread or whatever it's called.

Namely, that they have a tremendous amount of content to vet, much of which is probably unobjectionable or at least not illegal, but with buried time bombs. And they've basically ignored the question of moderation or left control of the moderation in the hands of the same alt-right types who are themselves the problem they now have, so no one is remotely equipped to do this vetting in a timely manner- it should have been the result of years of ongoing work and systematic banning of people who do shit like advocate political violence against liberals, but that wasn't done and now it's too late.

Even sorting out and deleting the posts calling for violence would be too big a project for them now; there are too many and nobody's going to be helping them do it. Certainly no such thing can be done in a hurry, especially with many of the pro-terrorism alt-right posters being actively proud of what they said and likely unwilling to hide it.

Now, Baen Books has enough resources that maybe they could conceivably resolve this eventually, by hiring people- but it almost certainly wouldn't be worth the effort. Even if they could, it'd take a long time to sort out, so in the short term shutting that shit down is in their best interests.

I did have a laugh at the official statement saying that clearly the Bar wasn't as fault because 'nobody on the Bar complained' and then in the statement on the bar about the closure, say that the "may" be "unlawful posts" were stuff that "nobody agreed with", which implies people were complaining.
Can I get a link to the official statement? Sounds interesting to pick over.
 
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