That's a common Weber thing, though; he does like his ultra-competent conspiracies, often ancient ones. The Mesan Alignment in the Honorverse, the Imperials in the Dahak series, a whole slew of them in the Bahzell books, etc.
Let's Read: David Weber's Honor Harrington
- Thread starter The Victorian
- Start date
- Books
- Location
- Watchung,New Jersey
Yeah, which I get, Shadow games where you dont know who is on your side and the like while trying to unwravel the evil shit their playing at. It could of worked, @General Battuta did a great job showing that, but as it was...Nah just no. Personally, I found the Mesans and their entire genetic Slave trade all on its own to be a worthy enemy for a good series dealing with the Silesian Confedracy. Think like Shadows of Saganami but instead of getting into a tuffle with the Solarians you get a good piece exploring Silesia fighting the various bad actors who are making life hell there with the Mesan Slavers being foremost among them. Would build on Lore in a region which could be quite fascinating (Space Pirates? Corrupt governors? A whole bunch of Ethnic Sepratist groups? This all on its own would be great) and you get roughly the same effects as Shadows.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
Admittedly as I recall De Camp, Anne McCarthy, Larry Nixon and Mercedes Lackey who are all very good authors had written books that have been published under Baen but they also published works under other publishers as well.
Entropy Judge
Recurring Bouts of Misanthropy
Bujold as well.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Eh.
Aside from name spelling, in fairness I should make more carveouts. I'm thinking more specifically of the "guys who write military SF and alternate history for Baen, specifically," than of "everything published by Baen."
Though Baen has also been going on a downhill slide politically for quite some years.
Would people be interested in reading an alternative universe Honor of the Queen? It's not complete and probably never will be, since my ability to write ship battles is low to nonexistent, but I thought it might serve as a starting point for how to change the Honorverse while keeping the good parts.
- Location
- Watchung,New Jersey
Sign me up! I'd love to see more fanficfions and AUs of the Honorverse and you seem to have a lot of good ideas for it.
Full thread here:
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
Chapter One- Honor of the Queen AU
"Captain Honor Stephanie Harrington!"
The herald's voice resounded through the great hall, and Honor stepped forward, feeling every eye upon her. Jared Mayhew turned his back, glowering, but Protector Benjamin smiled graciously down upon her. "Welcome to Grayson, Captain Harrington," he proclaimed. "I understand that you have the honor of serving under Admiral Courvoisier?"
"Yes, sir," Honor said. "I mean, yes, Protector. I command Fearless." A murmur of disapproval rose from the crowd around the throne, elderly Steadholders in dark suits voicing their disdain for a woman daring to command any vessel, let alone a warship. The Protector's upraised hand silenced them all.
Protector Benjamin said, "Fearless once saved Grayson from the accursed Masadans. I trust that her new captain will be worthy of his legacy."
"Yes, sir." Fearless was a she, but Honor bit her tongue and said nothing more. Admiral Courvoisier trusted her not to embarrass him before the Protector. "I am honored by the opportunity to serve alongside the Grayson Space Navy."
Applause echoed through the great hall, though Honor noticed that many of the older Steadholders were silent. But the uniformed officers were clapping, some obediently and a few with real enthusiasm, and the sight of their approval encouraged her. Maybe this wouldn't be as bad as she had expected. The Protector raised his hand again, and silence fell.
The Protector of Grayson was a distinguished man, with grey hair and a warm, pleasant smile. He was dressed in the same dark suit as his Steadholders, but there was a sword belted at his side. The hereditary autocrat of the entire planet looked a little like her paternal grandfather, though Arthur Harrington had none of the Protector's force of personality. Protector Benjamin examined her thoughtfully for a moment longer, and she stood stiffly at attention, determined to present the perfect image of a Royal Manticoran Navy officer.
"Thank you, Captain," the Protector said graciously, and she bowed low, backing away from the throne. A Grayson admiral took her place, his blue uniform gleaming with gold braid, and she gratefully retreated back into the crowd. Honor could still feel hostile stares following her, and she forced her face to remain calm and professional, just as a proper naval officer should. By the time that she arrived back at Admiral Courvoisier's side, most of them had turned their attention back to the Protector.
Except for Jared Mayhew. The Protector's cousin was still watching her with hatred in his eyes. Honor had always hated political games within the Navy, but at least those made sense. The Minister of Industry obviously loathed her, even though she'd never done anything to him. For that matter, she'd never even met him before today!
Admiral Courvoisier said softly, "I believe it's time for us to go, Captain Harrington." She obediently turned to follow her mentor, falling into step beside him as they made their way towards the exit. Planetary Security men in somber gray stood before great doors carved from dark wood, hands resting upon the pistols at their side, but they stepped aside, opening the doors for the admiral to pass through. The dull murmur of the crowd died as the doors shut behind them with a dull thud, and Honor sighed in relief.
"Glad to be away from court, Captain Harrington?" The voice was amused, but it sounded like the speaker was sharing a private joke, not entertaining himself at her expense. She turned to face an elderly man with warm, friendly dark eyes. He held out a hand, and she shook it automatically, returning his smile. Then she recognized him, and fought to keep a pleasant expression on her face.
"I…," she said. "I am pleased to meet you, Ambassador Masterman." Her cheeks burned with shame, but she kept her mouth tightly shut. She had embarrassed the Admiral enough for one day.
Masterman said, "A fine young officer, Admiral. By all accounts, young Captain Harrington is a woman of great ability. I am always pleasantly surprised to find commoners with such a high rank in the Royal Manticoran Navy."
She opened her mouth to defend the service's honor, and promptly closed it again. Honor could fight a ship, but she had never been able to fight a war of words.
Besides, it was not as if the Ambassador was wrong. If not for Admiral Courvoisier's patronage, she would have been lucky to end her career as an executive officer under a captain with the proper family connections. Only his intervention had raised her to command rank, and she knew that the Admiral had spent favors and made enemies to give her a warship. All that she had, she owed to him.
"Ambassador Masterman," Admiral Courvoisier said. He sounded like he was talking to a close friend, though Honor's limited knowledge of their relationship suggested that "friendly" would not be an accurate description. "Hostile" or sometimes "murderous" would have been more accurate. "I see that your First Consul has an eye for talent."
Masterman shrugged. "First Consul McQueen understands that I have always acted in the service of Haven," he said calmly. " And she has always been willing to use whatever tools are required for victory. Despite any past disagreements, we have a shared concern for Haven's security in this region, so I find myself back on Grayson. It is an unexpected pleasure to return to this lovely world, even if I find the circumstances regrettable."
Only a lunatic or a liar would have called Grayson "lovely", and Honor thought that Masterman seemed extremely sane. The entire planet was so poisonous that simply stepping outside could kill an offworlder within minutes; even Graysons, genetically engineered to survive their world's toxins, could not breathe the atmosphere for long. It was honestly a miracle that the original colonists had survived at all.
"The Protector has declined your kind offer of friendship? How sad." Admiral Courvoisier smiled very slightly. "It seems that he prefers more reliable friends."
"I can hardly compete with Protector Benjamin's dear friend Raoul," Masterman said. "After you protected him during the Maccabeus Plot, he's always been loyal to the Star Kingdom. It's such a shame you weren't able to save the rest of his government, but I'm sure that you did what you could."
There was something about Masterman's tone that suggested a hidden meaning to his words, and Honor bristled. Admiral Courvoisier had saved the Graysons from Masada. He had driven back the fanatics and preserved the freedom...well, Graysons weren't exactly free, but they were more free than the Masadans.
She certainly wasn't going to hear lectures on "liberation" from Haven. Under the People's Republic they had sometimes made a genuine effort to export their murderous egalitarianism to other worlds, but the First Consul's Republic happily made alliances with the worst despots in explored space. It was Manticore's duty and honor to preserve smaller nations from the Havenite threat, even if that sometimes meant working with dubious partners.
"Protector," the man at Masterman's side said. "His ancestors seized power at the point of a gun, without the consent of the People, and he calls himself a "Protector". A wolf might name himself the "Protector" of the sheep, but a name does not change the truth."
Admiral Courvoisier said, "Thomas. It's been a while." The man at Masterman's side nodded, and Honor looked at him for the first time. He was completely unremarkable, with a face that was neither handsome nor ugly, short brown hair, and dark brown eyes that lacked any of Masterman's warmth or charm. He just seemed...tired.
Something about the man was familiar, though, and Honor found herself trying to remember. She had seen his face in a class long ago, back at the Academy, when she was a young cadet. It had been one of Admiral Courvoisier's Tactics classes, and he was talking about defeat. Defeat is the teacher of last resort. When you believe yourself invincible, when you are certain that your plans will succeed, defeat will remind you that the enemy always has a vote. Let us consider the First Battle of Seabring…"
"My God," Honor said. "Thomas Theisman? Admiral Thomas Theisman?" He was wearing a plain brown tunic and trousers, and he looked more like a clerk than the legendary People's Admiral. But Admiral Thomas Theisman undeniably stood before her. "The Savior of Seabring?"
Theisman said, "No." The word was sharp and furious, and he took a deep breath, visibly calming himself. "Seabring was won by the men and women who fought and died there, not one officer. And Admiral Courvoisier took the system away from us in the Second Battle of Seabring."
Honor said, "Yes, sir. But you and your people won the first battle. The first real victory for the People's Navy." This man had led the Conqueror mutiny, rallied the routing People's Navy at Seabring, and commanded the Zanzibar Offensive. Meeting Theisman was like stepping into one of Admiral Courvoisier's lectures. "Sir, how did you…"
Admiral Courvoisier glanced at her, and she stopped talking. Masterman said, "My old friend Thomas has agreed to join me as an unofficial military advisor. Though his rank was never formally restored, the First Consul felt that his experience would be valuable in this situation." If the People's Admiral was upset by his exile to a distant frontier world, he didn't show it. "Thomas tells me you've built quite a fleet for your Grayson friends."
Fearless would be the flagship. The sting of giving her first command away was lessened by the knowledge that the Graysons would appreciate her properly. She was an old ship, with a proud record, and the thought of Fearless going to the scrapyard was almost physically painful to Honor. The old girl deserved to keep fighting, even if she wouldn't be a Queen's ship anymore.
"Yes, sir," Honor replied. "The Graysons are quick learners. I'm glad to be working with them." It was mostly true. The officers assigned to her were obedient, intelligent, and capable. If she sometimes caught them glancing at her in confusion, as if they were wondering why there was a woman in the captain's chair, she did her best to pretend that she hadn't noticed.
Masterman nodded agreeably. "A fascinating people," he said. "You know, I thought that it was impossible to draw them out of isolation, but the Admiral found a way. He always finds a way." He saluted Admiral Courvosier like a fencer acknowledging a point. "Duty calls, but I hope to see you both again."
Honor watched both of them depart, holding in her words until they were gone. When they vanished into a side corridor, she finally spoke. "Admiral Courvoisier, I remember what you told me about Masterman." "Viper" and "backstabber" had been some of the kinder things he'd said. "I don't think he's here on a routine diplomatic mission."
"Oh, Honor," the Admiral said. "I take back my earlier remark. Maybe you do have a future in politics."
Honorverse AU: Honor of the Queen
An alternate universe telling of the Honorverse story Honor of the Queen.
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
Chapter One- Honor of the Queen AU
"Captain Honor Stephanie Harrington!"
The herald's voice resounded through the great hall, and Honor stepped forward, feeling every eye upon her. Jared Mayhew turned his back, glowering, but Protector Benjamin smiled graciously down upon her. "Welcome to Grayson, Captain Harrington," he proclaimed. "I understand that you have the honor of serving under Admiral Courvoisier?"
"Yes, sir," Honor said. "I mean, yes, Protector. I command Fearless." A murmur of disapproval rose from the crowd around the throne, elderly Steadholders in dark suits voicing their disdain for a woman daring to command any vessel, let alone a warship. The Protector's upraised hand silenced them all.
Protector Benjamin said, "Fearless once saved Grayson from the accursed Masadans. I trust that her new captain will be worthy of his legacy."
"Yes, sir." Fearless was a she, but Honor bit her tongue and said nothing more. Admiral Courvoisier trusted her not to embarrass him before the Protector. "I am honored by the opportunity to serve alongside the Grayson Space Navy."
Applause echoed through the great hall, though Honor noticed that many of the older Steadholders were silent. But the uniformed officers were clapping, some obediently and a few with real enthusiasm, and the sight of their approval encouraged her. Maybe this wouldn't be as bad as she had expected. The Protector raised his hand again, and silence fell.
The Protector of Grayson was a distinguished man, with grey hair and a warm, pleasant smile. He was dressed in the same dark suit as his Steadholders, but there was a sword belted at his side. The hereditary autocrat of the entire planet looked a little like her paternal grandfather, though Arthur Harrington had none of the Protector's force of personality. Protector Benjamin examined her thoughtfully for a moment longer, and she stood stiffly at attention, determined to present the perfect image of a Royal Manticoran Navy officer.
"Thank you, Captain," the Protector said graciously, and she bowed low, backing away from the throne. A Grayson admiral took her place, his blue uniform gleaming with gold braid, and she gratefully retreated back into the crowd. Honor could still feel hostile stares following her, and she forced her face to remain calm and professional, just as a proper naval officer should. By the time that she arrived back at Admiral Courvoisier's side, most of them had turned their attention back to the Protector.
Except for Jared Mayhew. The Protector's cousin was still watching her with hatred in his eyes. Honor had always hated political games within the Navy, but at least those made sense. The Minister of Industry obviously loathed her, even though she'd never done anything to him. For that matter, she'd never even met him before today!
Admiral Courvoisier said softly, "I believe it's time for us to go, Captain Harrington." She obediently turned to follow her mentor, falling into step beside him as they made their way towards the exit. Planetary Security men in somber gray stood before great doors carved from dark wood, hands resting upon the pistols at their side, but they stepped aside, opening the doors for the admiral to pass through. The dull murmur of the crowd died as the doors shut behind them with a dull thud, and Honor sighed in relief.
"Glad to be away from court, Captain Harrington?" The voice was amused, but it sounded like the speaker was sharing a private joke, not entertaining himself at her expense. She turned to face an elderly man with warm, friendly dark eyes. He held out a hand, and she shook it automatically, returning his smile. Then she recognized him, and fought to keep a pleasant expression on her face.
"I…," she said. "I am pleased to meet you, Ambassador Masterman." Her cheeks burned with shame, but she kept her mouth tightly shut. She had embarrassed the Admiral enough for one day.
Masterman said, "A fine young officer, Admiral. By all accounts, young Captain Harrington is a woman of great ability. I am always pleasantly surprised to find commoners with such a high rank in the Royal Manticoran Navy."
She opened her mouth to defend the service's honor, and promptly closed it again. Honor could fight a ship, but she had never been able to fight a war of words.
Besides, it was not as if the Ambassador was wrong. If not for Admiral Courvoisier's patronage, she would have been lucky to end her career as an executive officer under a captain with the proper family connections. Only his intervention had raised her to command rank, and she knew that the Admiral had spent favors and made enemies to give her a warship. All that she had, she owed to him.
"Ambassador Masterman," Admiral Courvoisier said. He sounded like he was talking to a close friend, though Honor's limited knowledge of their relationship suggested that "friendly" would not be an accurate description. "Hostile" or sometimes "murderous" would have been more accurate. "I see that your First Consul has an eye for talent."
Masterman shrugged. "First Consul McQueen understands that I have always acted in the service of Haven," he said calmly. " And she has always been willing to use whatever tools are required for victory. Despite any past disagreements, we have a shared concern for Haven's security in this region, so I find myself back on Grayson. It is an unexpected pleasure to return to this lovely world, even if I find the circumstances regrettable."
Only a lunatic or a liar would have called Grayson "lovely", and Honor thought that Masterman seemed extremely sane. The entire planet was so poisonous that simply stepping outside could kill an offworlder within minutes; even Graysons, genetically engineered to survive their world's toxins, could not breathe the atmosphere for long. It was honestly a miracle that the original colonists had survived at all.
"The Protector has declined your kind offer of friendship? How sad." Admiral Courvoisier smiled very slightly. "It seems that he prefers more reliable friends."
"I can hardly compete with Protector Benjamin's dear friend Raoul," Masterman said. "After you protected him during the Maccabeus Plot, he's always been loyal to the Star Kingdom. It's such a shame you weren't able to save the rest of his government, but I'm sure that you did what you could."
There was something about Masterman's tone that suggested a hidden meaning to his words, and Honor bristled. Admiral Courvoisier had saved the Graysons from Masada. He had driven back the fanatics and preserved the freedom...well, Graysons weren't exactly free, but they were more free than the Masadans.
She certainly wasn't going to hear lectures on "liberation" from Haven. Under the People's Republic they had sometimes made a genuine effort to export their murderous egalitarianism to other worlds, but the First Consul's Republic happily made alliances with the worst despots in explored space. It was Manticore's duty and honor to preserve smaller nations from the Havenite threat, even if that sometimes meant working with dubious partners.
"Protector," the man at Masterman's side said. "His ancestors seized power at the point of a gun, without the consent of the People, and he calls himself a "Protector". A wolf might name himself the "Protector" of the sheep, but a name does not change the truth."
Admiral Courvoisier said, "Thomas. It's been a while." The man at Masterman's side nodded, and Honor looked at him for the first time. He was completely unremarkable, with a face that was neither handsome nor ugly, short brown hair, and dark brown eyes that lacked any of Masterman's warmth or charm. He just seemed...tired.
Something about the man was familiar, though, and Honor found herself trying to remember. She had seen his face in a class long ago, back at the Academy, when she was a young cadet. It had been one of Admiral Courvoisier's Tactics classes, and he was talking about defeat. Defeat is the teacher of last resort. When you believe yourself invincible, when you are certain that your plans will succeed, defeat will remind you that the enemy always has a vote. Let us consider the First Battle of Seabring…"
"My God," Honor said. "Thomas Theisman? Admiral Thomas Theisman?" He was wearing a plain brown tunic and trousers, and he looked more like a clerk than the legendary People's Admiral. But Admiral Thomas Theisman undeniably stood before her. "The Savior of Seabring?"
Theisman said, "No." The word was sharp and furious, and he took a deep breath, visibly calming himself. "Seabring was won by the men and women who fought and died there, not one officer. And Admiral Courvoisier took the system away from us in the Second Battle of Seabring."
Honor said, "Yes, sir. But you and your people won the first battle. The first real victory for the People's Navy." This man had led the Conqueror mutiny, rallied the routing People's Navy at Seabring, and commanded the Zanzibar Offensive. Meeting Theisman was like stepping into one of Admiral Courvoisier's lectures. "Sir, how did you…"
Admiral Courvoisier glanced at her, and she stopped talking. Masterman said, "My old friend Thomas has agreed to join me as an unofficial military advisor. Though his rank was never formally restored, the First Consul felt that his experience would be valuable in this situation." If the People's Admiral was upset by his exile to a distant frontier world, he didn't show it. "Thomas tells me you've built quite a fleet for your Grayson friends."
Fearless would be the flagship. The sting of giving her first command away was lessened by the knowledge that the Graysons would appreciate her properly. She was an old ship, with a proud record, and the thought of Fearless going to the scrapyard was almost physically painful to Honor. The old girl deserved to keep fighting, even if she wouldn't be a Queen's ship anymore.
"Yes, sir," Honor replied. "The Graysons are quick learners. I'm glad to be working with them." It was mostly true. The officers assigned to her were obedient, intelligent, and capable. If she sometimes caught them glancing at her in confusion, as if they were wondering why there was a woman in the captain's chair, she did her best to pretend that she hadn't noticed.
Masterman nodded agreeably. "A fascinating people," he said. "You know, I thought that it was impossible to draw them out of isolation, but the Admiral found a way. He always finds a way." He saluted Admiral Courvosier like a fencer acknowledging a point. "Duty calls, but I hope to see you both again."
Honor watched both of them depart, holding in her words until they were gone. When they vanished into a side corridor, she finally spoke. "Admiral Courvoisier, I remember what you told me about Masterman." "Viper" and "backstabber" had been some of the kinder things he'd said. "I don't think he's here on a routine diplomatic mission."
"Oh, Honor," the Admiral said. "I take back my earlier remark. Maybe you do have a future in politics."
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Would you mind expanding a bit on the differences between your AU and the canon setting? I can infer from reading between the lines, but I don't quite have the headspace to run a properly detailed analysis.
- Location
- Watchung,New Jersey
From what I can see, and please correct me if Im wrong @dptullos he's basically going with a more actual Napoleonic Tilt to it. Manticore is the UK with class stratification with honor being a Yeoman who made it into upper ranks in a Aristocratic navy and has to prove herself against asshole nobility who want her "in her place" while she is against Haven which has advanced pass the Jacobin Stage of their Revolution and onto the Napoleonic era with Esther serving as Nappy.
Great chapter overall with intro to the world and all, only thing which I have qualms about would be Honors reaction to meeting Theisman, I understand that he is a living legend and she's only starting to make her way up the chain but it does feel a tad overdone and slightly OOC, especially with a enemy officer.
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I would be happy to!
At the start of my story, Manticore and Haven are at peace, and they're both maneuvering to secure the allegiance of planets like Grayson to serve as fleet bases. My AU has ships that require fuel and can't make long journeys through hyperspace, so bases are absolutely essential for the navies of both nations.
The situation is deliberately similar to that which existed between Britain and France after the fall of the Committee of Public Safety. The Andermani exist as a rough equivalent to Prussia, the Silesian Confederacy is a third-world dumpster fire that serves as a playground for imperial powers, and the Solarian League is a vast, peaceful confederacy of liberal democracies that doesn't care about any of this.
There was a huge war not that long ago, where Haven tried to invade and/or liberate all of their neighbors; think the War of the First Coalition In Space. Both Admiral Courvoisier and Thomas Theisman played important roles in the conflict.
Also, Honor is fantastically good as a captain and hilariously ill-suited to being a diplomat. Instead of being Always Right, she's a bright, capable young officer who is dealing with a complicated situation that is very far outside of her area of expertise.
I haven't really worked out what happened in this AU's Basilisk Station, except that Honor did destroy a Havenite Q-Ship while commanding one of Sonja Hemphill's less brilliant ideas, which earned her serious respect among peers with open minds. She then proceeded to give "Horrible Hemphill" very respectful hell in the after-action review, and as a result she acquired a second highly placed aristocratic patron.
Courvoisier and Hemphill conspired to send her out to Grayson under Courvosier's command, where our story begins.
If you have other questions, please let me know.
Yes, exactly!
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Full thread here:
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
Chapter Two- The Honor of the Queen AU
"It's a small favor, Raoul. Nothing much. I just want you to conquer Masada for me."
Honor dropped her fork on the floor. Protector Benjamin ignored Honor completely, eyes fixed on the Admiral, but his second wife smiled kindly at her, which only made her feel worse.
Admiral Courvoisier said, "A small favor." His voice managed to be completely polite while still proclaiming that the Protector had gone completely insane, which was why he was a diplomat and Honor wasn't. "You only want me to conquer a planet full of fanatics."
"Come, Raoul. Your Queen has granted you plenipotentiary authority to negotiate in her name, and the Star Kingdom is still officially at war with Masada. The only reason that you haven't conquered them already is that it simply wasn't worth the time and effort, and I can make it worth your time and effort." The Protector took a bite of steak, chewed, and swallowed. "Full basing rights in Grayson. No temporary bargains; a full hundred-year lease. Free refueling for any and all Manticoran ships that pass through Grayson, and of course we'll deny Haven's merchants the right to pass through our system."
Honor was hardly an expert on international affairs, but that sounded like a good bargain. Except for the "conquer Masada" part, which sounded insane. Even Haven didn't want to conquer Masada, and they wanted to conquer everyone.
Katherine Mayhew said, "We have an excellent justification, Admiral. Masada attacks our mining ships from time to time, so it would be simple to give them an ultimatum. Once they refuse to make peace- and they will refuse- we will be entirely within our rights to conquer them and impose terms."
The Admiral took a sip of red wine, considering this. Then he said, "Why?"
"Well," Benjamin said. "It will be nice to get rid of the Masadan threat once and for all, but to be honest there isn't much of a Masadan threat anymore. The real reason is domestic." He shook his head regretfully. "There are a great many Graysons who don't appreciate the Mayhew Restoration. The conservatives hate me for making a bargain with heathens, of course, but the liberals also hate me for maintaining my God-given powers as Protector. I gave them a House of Steaders, but they insist on some absurd idea of a new constitution, as though the old one wasn't good enough anymore."
Honor took a drink from her own wine glass, looking away. As far as she could tell, the Grayson Constitution didn't have any of the fundamental rights that existed in Manticore's Constitution. There was no freedom of speech, no right to free and fair elections, and certainly no freedom of religion! And that was only for men; when it came to women, the only rights that existed were those that men chose to give them. In fairness to Protector Benjamin, he had done his best to grant women more of a place in the workforce, but he certainly hadn't been interested in radical reforms.
She wasn't a politician, of course, but Admiral Courvoisier had insisted that she study Grayson's political background before they came here. He was remarkably critical of the "Mayhew Restoration'', especially considering that he was the man who had made it possible.
The Protector's first wife said, "A short, victorious war. Victory will calm the people and show the Steadholders that the Protector's traditional powers are necessary. The conquest of Masada will bring us through this period of instability into a bright new era of progress." Her cool blue eyes examined the Admiral thoughtfully. "And we would be willing to offer substantial concessions to your Queen. Concessions even beyond what my husband has already discussed."
"Interesting," the Admiral said. "My instructions do permit me to wage defensive war on behalf of our allies. If Grayson was to sign a treaty of alliance and friendship with the Star Kingdom of Manticore, and if Masada was to conduct an unprovoked attack upon civilians, then I would have to fight with your Navy. The honor of the Queen would require nothing less." He paused, considering the Protector and Katherine Mayhew with intelligent dark eyes. "I would expect the Protector's honor to repay that service."
After that, it was all over but the haggling. Honor sat in silence with the second wife- Elaine Mayhew- for the better part of an hour, listening to Admiral Courvoisier cold-bloodedly bargain with the Protector and his first wife. When they finished, the Admiral held out his hand, and the ruler of a planet shook it as an equal, smiling broadly.
"I knew you'd come through for me, Raoul. You've always been a friend, and I won't forget it."
The Admiral said, "I am only a servant of my Queen, Protector Benjamin. I act for the Star Kingdom of Manticore, now and always." He bowed his head politely. "Protector. Madam Mayhew. Madam Mayhew. Thank you for a wonderful dinner."
Honor hastily rose to say her goodbyes. The protocol training the Admiral had hammered into her served her well, and she managed to follow the script. If there was an amused twinkle in Katherine Mayhew's eyes, she didn't say anything, and Honor bowed deeply to the older woman after offering her first bow to the Protector.
Elaine Mayhew said, "God go with you, Captain Harrington." She had been quiet throughout the entire meal, but now her eyes were sparkling with enthusiasm. "I am very glad that I had a chance to meet you."
Honor blinked, staring in confusion at the plump woman, and Protector Benjamin laughed. "Elaine has read all about your exploits, Captain Harrington," he told her. "She's something of an admirer. If Grayson does ever accept women in our military, I hope they will be as brave and loyal as you have proven."
She just stood there, stunned, until Admiral Courvoisier took her arm. "Thank you, Madam Mayhew," he said warmly. "I'll make sure I invite Captain Harrington to our next meal. Perhaps she can tell you some of her stories in person."
By the time they reached the waiting shuttle, Honor had recovered enough to speak. "She...admired me? I thought that Grayson women viewed me as Satan's whore." None of them said it to her face, not when she was the Protector's guest, but it wasn't hard to interpret the looks.
"Some of them do," Admiral Courvoisier said, buckling his seatbelt. "But Grayson isn't isolated anymore, Honor. They have contact with the rest of the galaxy, and Grayson women are changing with their planet." He smiled sadly. "I have many regrets about what I did on Grayson, Honor. That isn't one of them."
"Yes, sir," she said. The shuttle rose into the sky, carrying them away from the Protector's Palace and a young woman who wanted to grow up to be like Honor Harrington. Maybe they were changing Grayson for the better. Maybe one day Elaine Mayhew's daughters could grow up to fight for their country.
Fight for their country. "Sir," Honor said carefully. "We should tell Doctor Houseman about your decision."
She had never been more grateful that she wasn't a diplomat.
Honorverse AU: Honor of the Queen
An alternate universe telling of the Honorverse story Honor of the Queen.
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
Chapter Two- The Honor of the Queen AU
"It's a small favor, Raoul. Nothing much. I just want you to conquer Masada for me."
Honor dropped her fork on the floor. Protector Benjamin ignored Honor completely, eyes fixed on the Admiral, but his second wife smiled kindly at her, which only made her feel worse.
Admiral Courvoisier said, "A small favor." His voice managed to be completely polite while still proclaiming that the Protector had gone completely insane, which was why he was a diplomat and Honor wasn't. "You only want me to conquer a planet full of fanatics."
"Come, Raoul. Your Queen has granted you plenipotentiary authority to negotiate in her name, and the Star Kingdom is still officially at war with Masada. The only reason that you haven't conquered them already is that it simply wasn't worth the time and effort, and I can make it worth your time and effort." The Protector took a bite of steak, chewed, and swallowed. "Full basing rights in Grayson. No temporary bargains; a full hundred-year lease. Free refueling for any and all Manticoran ships that pass through Grayson, and of course we'll deny Haven's merchants the right to pass through our system."
Honor was hardly an expert on international affairs, but that sounded like a good bargain. Except for the "conquer Masada" part, which sounded insane. Even Haven didn't want to conquer Masada, and they wanted to conquer everyone.
Katherine Mayhew said, "We have an excellent justification, Admiral. Masada attacks our mining ships from time to time, so it would be simple to give them an ultimatum. Once they refuse to make peace- and they will refuse- we will be entirely within our rights to conquer them and impose terms."
The Admiral took a sip of red wine, considering this. Then he said, "Why?"
"Well," Benjamin said. "It will be nice to get rid of the Masadan threat once and for all, but to be honest there isn't much of a Masadan threat anymore. The real reason is domestic." He shook his head regretfully. "There are a great many Graysons who don't appreciate the Mayhew Restoration. The conservatives hate me for making a bargain with heathens, of course, but the liberals also hate me for maintaining my God-given powers as Protector. I gave them a House of Steaders, but they insist on some absurd idea of a new constitution, as though the old one wasn't good enough anymore."
Honor took a drink from her own wine glass, looking away. As far as she could tell, the Grayson Constitution didn't have any of the fundamental rights that existed in Manticore's Constitution. There was no freedom of speech, no right to free and fair elections, and certainly no freedom of religion! And that was only for men; when it came to women, the only rights that existed were those that men chose to give them. In fairness to Protector Benjamin, he had done his best to grant women more of a place in the workforce, but he certainly hadn't been interested in radical reforms.
She wasn't a politician, of course, but Admiral Courvoisier had insisted that she study Grayson's political background before they came here. He was remarkably critical of the "Mayhew Restoration'', especially considering that he was the man who had made it possible.
The Protector's first wife said, "A short, victorious war. Victory will calm the people and show the Steadholders that the Protector's traditional powers are necessary. The conquest of Masada will bring us through this period of instability into a bright new era of progress." Her cool blue eyes examined the Admiral thoughtfully. "And we would be willing to offer substantial concessions to your Queen. Concessions even beyond what my husband has already discussed."
"Interesting," the Admiral said. "My instructions do permit me to wage defensive war on behalf of our allies. If Grayson was to sign a treaty of alliance and friendship with the Star Kingdom of Manticore, and if Masada was to conduct an unprovoked attack upon civilians, then I would have to fight with your Navy. The honor of the Queen would require nothing less." He paused, considering the Protector and Katherine Mayhew with intelligent dark eyes. "I would expect the Protector's honor to repay that service."
After that, it was all over but the haggling. Honor sat in silence with the second wife- Elaine Mayhew- for the better part of an hour, listening to Admiral Courvoisier cold-bloodedly bargain with the Protector and his first wife. When they finished, the Admiral held out his hand, and the ruler of a planet shook it as an equal, smiling broadly.
"I knew you'd come through for me, Raoul. You've always been a friend, and I won't forget it."
The Admiral said, "I am only a servant of my Queen, Protector Benjamin. I act for the Star Kingdom of Manticore, now and always." He bowed his head politely. "Protector. Madam Mayhew. Madam Mayhew. Thank you for a wonderful dinner."
Honor hastily rose to say her goodbyes. The protocol training the Admiral had hammered into her served her well, and she managed to follow the script. If there was an amused twinkle in Katherine Mayhew's eyes, she didn't say anything, and Honor bowed deeply to the older woman after offering her first bow to the Protector.
Elaine Mayhew said, "God go with you, Captain Harrington." She had been quiet throughout the entire meal, but now her eyes were sparkling with enthusiasm. "I am very glad that I had a chance to meet you."
Honor blinked, staring in confusion at the plump woman, and Protector Benjamin laughed. "Elaine has read all about your exploits, Captain Harrington," he told her. "She's something of an admirer. If Grayson does ever accept women in our military, I hope they will be as brave and loyal as you have proven."
She just stood there, stunned, until Admiral Courvoisier took her arm. "Thank you, Madam Mayhew," he said warmly. "I'll make sure I invite Captain Harrington to our next meal. Perhaps she can tell you some of her stories in person."
By the time they reached the waiting shuttle, Honor had recovered enough to speak. "She...admired me? I thought that Grayson women viewed me as Satan's whore." None of them said it to her face, not when she was the Protector's guest, but it wasn't hard to interpret the looks.
"Some of them do," Admiral Courvoisier said, buckling his seatbelt. "But Grayson isn't isolated anymore, Honor. They have contact with the rest of the galaxy, and Grayson women are changing with their planet." He smiled sadly. "I have many regrets about what I did on Grayson, Honor. That isn't one of them."
"Yes, sir," she said. The shuttle rose into the sky, carrying them away from the Protector's Palace and a young woman who wanted to grow up to be like Honor Harrington. Maybe they were changing Grayson for the better. Maybe one day Elaine Mayhew's daughters could grow up to fight for their country.
Fight for their country. "Sir," Honor said carefully. "We should tell Doctor Houseman about your decision."
She had never been more grateful that she wasn't a diplomat.
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Hmm. I think that's probably a good idea. Thank you!
And here it is:
Honorverse AU: Honor of the Queen
An alternate universe telling of the Honorverse story Honor of the Queen.
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yeah, canon ships nominally require fuel but in practice their operational range is, like... um, four months times speeds of ~1500-2000c or so at cruise I think... something like 300-500 light years. Which is so far that it makes a lot of "island-hopping" options for bypassing star systems, or whole large groups of star systems, feasible.
Just cutting down their strategic endurance by a factor of two or three, or forcing ships to accept serious design tradeoffs to get long range,* would radically alter the setting and make the kind of incremental system-by-system advances we see make a lot more sense.
The need for fuel isn't in keeping with Age of Sail sensibilities, but in the Age of Sail ships didn't fight slow grinding advances across wide swathes of ocean towards key strategic targets. Weber seems to want that kind of fighting... so he should give his ships performance parameters that support it.
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*(Like "we had to sacrifice an extra 10% of the ship's mass to fill up with more fuel tanks, so now it's at a significant disadvantage against a peer opponent that isn't as long-legged." Or "to make the cruise from Here to There at high speed we had to leave all our missiles behind and fill the magazines up with big temporary fuel canisters.")
So... basically what canon looked like then, except the part where you accelerate the Haven political plotline.
Sollies get effectively retconned later, is how I see it. You just have pre-retcon Sollies.
[grunts]
I think putting Theisman in that role is a mistake. He's Honor's foil and his career is supposed to broadly parallel hers; making him a senior officer undermines that. I advise using Alfredo Yu himself, or one of the other canon senior Havenites. Like Thurston (who's noted for having the weakness of being too cerebral, but bloody dangerous if you give him time to plan) or Parnell (who's a good all-rounder if too prone to creating his ideal set-piece engagement and failing to realize when things go south, much like Thurston).
That, or switch Giscard or Tourville into the role of "foil" more fully to fill the narrative hole you created by massively promoting Theisman.
Sounds to me like this is... basically just the canon sequence of events?
- Location
- Penn
Well, in the canon sequence of events she slags off Hemphill hard and doesn't have her as a patron, which could change things since basically all advanced in the latter half come from Hemphill and Honor working together.
Also it's still very goofy that Weber focuses so hard on the fleet base systems thing when it's very clear that it's not really needed. I mean, IIRC, Haven basically has a fleet stationed just outside of Basilisk for quite a while since they needed to be ready at all time for the Haven courier ship or the Q-Ship to send them the message that it's go-time and immediately show up.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I don't think it'll make much practical difference. Hemphill didn't dislike Honor in canon, and any work together that the two did (I think you're overstating Honor's contribution to all the advanced weapons of the later series) would be MORE likely to happen, not less... but not much more likely to happen faster because the underlying scientific research still has to happen.
To be fair, regarding that specific example, the fleet on station may have only been there for a few weeks, and having a fleet standing still for a few weeks may be easy on their endurance compared to actually flying around at cruising speed.
Ship endurance can be about time ("get home by ___ or run out of food") or fuel or some combination of both.
But in the main, you're still right- Weber talks a lot about fleet bases, but in practice ships seem to have more than enough range to largely ignore basing and travel great distances in a single 'hop.' Long enough that even allowing for round trip capability and a generous allowance of fuel to Do The Thing at your destination, the effective combat radius of ships is more than enough to permit a lot of 'island hopping.'
Captain Orsai
Davion Heavy Guards Captain
It's worth commenting on, of course, that neither Manticore or Haven have fought a war against a peer or near-peer opponent for a very long time, so a whole lot of their strategic planning is going to been heavy on theorycrafting and assumptions that don't turn out to work as posited in theory in practice, so *shrugs* seems, considering that deep strikes become preferred in the second round of unpleasantness between Manticore and Haven, reasonable to me that they underestimated the effective operational radius for fleets in the leadup for round one.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
...I can't buy that.
First, Manticore has a vast amount of experience with commerce protection, which means a lot of experience flying around escorting slow-moving ships that prefer not to make random superfluous stops they don't have to because it's unprofitable.
Second, Haven has a vast amount of experience throwing together entire conquest fleets; the fleets may not be operating far from home in any given case but they do need to be at least functional, and they can't ignore the logistics of ongoing ship operations the way a power that mostly keeps their ships at home in dock might sort of get away with.
Neither side could plausibly just go "Duhhh, we forgot how far our ships could fly and were afraid to find out" for a war that lasts something like ten years.
Especially since both sides are totally ready to switch to a 'deep strike' approach when the second war comes around. They do this without any of the usual phase of massive retooling and doctrinal revisions that would normally be necessary for a fleet that HADN'T already spent a long time contemplating how to go about doing that. This suggests that they did, in point of fact, have a 'rulebook' for how to fight that way and had at a bare minimum done a lot of thinking at the staff-officer level about it.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
Hmm, there was a roughly three-four year period of peace though between the first and second war and there is no reason to think that people on both sides didn't think about various ways of fighting each other during the ten years of fighting as they sought to think of ways to gain advantages over the enemy.
- Location
- USA
They can however underestimate the range ships can go from maintenance yards in a major war. Because in war having good chunks of your fleet unavailable due to lack of supply or need to perform yard maintenance is a problem, with commerce protection in peace times you rotate in a new ship and the ship needing maintenance goes into the yard. You also are using a lower amount of supplies as putting battle fleets at active vs a more resting status is going to generate more wear and tear and thus require more supplies to keep the ships in fighting shape and thus require more freighters hauling supplies to where they are needed.
Haven has experience with single polity systems and not extended wars against peer powers. Those conquests are basically assemble fleet and supplies, move in, conquer, done. There is no worrying about enemy counter strikes, about having enough counter-missiles and decoys and missiles to take on additional task forces and such.
If I recall correctly it had been a long time since the last major war in the verse so that they were working off a lot of assumptions based on the last war is of little surprise.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I mean, they would. My complaint is that they should/must have done a lot of that thinking well in advance, or they wouldn't have been able to roll it out so easily.
Manticore and Haven must have known, LONG before the first war, the theoretical performance parameters of their ships. They must have been able to plan accordingly. In some cases they did; events like Thurston's raid were frankly... fairly deep-penetration, not just slamming away at a planar/linear front.
There is no reasonable context in which they would need more than a few years of active operations to figure this shit out for themselves, given the technological and infrastructural constraints Weber imposed. If he'd wanted a war that had more clearly defined front lines, he should have done what @dptullos is doing and "shortened the legs" of his ships and fleets so that they were forced to act accordingly.
I mean, in theory, sure fine yeah yeah yeah.
What I'm saying is that this excuse becomes a bit threadbare after, say, two or three years of continuous fleet warfare.
I get that there's a Watsonian explanation and it's at least superficially plausible, but you can say that of a lot of Weber's worse authorial choices.
And the Doylist explanation is relevant here: that Weber wanted a slow, grinding war of "fronts" that would advance slowly back and forth across space, allowing his protagonist to have a steadily developing career that would unfold to the backdrop of an extremely long war... but Weber didn't entirely think through the implications of his technology (ships seem to be able to go almost anywhere and run freely for months if not years without a major overhaul) on whether or not such a slow, grinding war would be plausible.