FunkyEntropy
Occasionally insightful, possibly grumpy
- Location
- Los Angeles
It's not in the original game, doesn't get more objective than that.
Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Finished: Final Fantasy Tactics]
- Thread starter Omicron
- Start date
- Let's Play
- Pronouns
- She/They
Well part of playing the WotL version is experiencing the WotL version, no? Gameplay additions or alterations are just as worthy of consideration as the differences in localization or cutscene presentation, in my mind.
Its absence from the game's original release doesn't say much about "the original intent" behind the game's spirit.
The first six games were played on the Pixel Remaster versions. Does using the features in those betray the original intent? What about playing the PC port of VII? What about playing VIII on an emulator?
Well, considering the music in the port that Omi got, specifically...
Egleris
Vagrant Dragon
- Location
- Italy
Come on now, adding a fully new class with a skillset that easily overpowers everything else on the physical side of the job tree is clearly a much larger change to the game mechanics than anything the Pixel Remasters did, and not even in the same ballpark as having different music - it's a much more fundamental change to the experience of playing the game. This can't really be argued against.
I'm saying it's a bit late now to start clinging to original-version purism. Bringing that as an argument to reject Dark Knight Ramza as "against the original intent of the game" feels like special pleading.
Why not? Adding a secret class you'll probably have to look up on Google to find and still have to grind for is not that big of a deal. The Pixel Remasters had easier saves, adding map and speed controls that changed much of the moment-to-moment gameplay. The Pixel Remasters objectively change more about the game's experience compared to a single class a good chunk people will never find unaided.
Again, it feels like special pleading.
Raj
Master of Procrasination
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Honestly kind of neutral on the whole Dark Knight since it's been so long since I've played Tactic's, if not agreeing that it does feel kind of out of character.
Tactic's is also way more balanced and fun to play carefully, so playing without it can be more fun.
That being said, sure music may not be a big difference but do you know what is?
Save States
Save States that Omi used a fair bit, along with Speed Up in Pixel which dramatically change the play experience, SS especially change things in a way a developer never intended, at least Dark Knight was planned out, even if it may have been a mistake.
Overall I really think the argument against using it, is just focused on the wrong things.
The main argument that may hold weight to me, is Dark Knight sounds a bit overpowered, from a hype perspective, this 100% makes sense, but Omi is also actively avoiding grinding, so it may be a good idea to not aim for Dark Knight. Still that's up to him to decide based off his own balancing.
Egleris
Vagrant Dragon
- Location
- Italy
I mean, I was against him using the WotL version from the first time the issue was brought up, was extremely vocal about it, and even now I've yet to say anything nicer to it than "I guess in some respect it's not worse than the PSX version". So, to me there's no special pleading on that front, I'm being consistent with myself.
As for changes to the game experience, ease of navigating the world map and easier saves only speed up the experience; they don't change the nature of it. Dark Knight does, because merely having it available completely changes the decision you make about character building, and even character progression - choosing to play certain classes to unlock it rather than experimenting with others classes that don't unlock anything is clearly influencing player behavior and how battles play out. It's a genuine difference in the quality of play.
So: the Pixel Remasters additions changed the game in the form of "you don't need to re-do the same things again and again after dying" and "no need to come back from dead ends", which reduced tedium, and that's it. Dark Knight changes the nature of the gameplay in every battle it is present, and even the out of battle choices regarding class selection. And battles are a larger part of FFT than they were in previous games.
Sure, you can argue that Dark Knight is a lesser change, if you want. I'll just keep disagreeing, I guess.
The above would be my feeling as well. One could be argued that save states might have some influence, by reducing the tedium in death, one is incentivized to try riskier behavior...
But that's the thing. Even if we accept that, Omi trying riskier behavior and not simply overleveling makes for a more interesting reading experience. It increases the desire for strategic options and attempts. A class that is objectively superior, on the hand doesn't. It makes there only be one choice, and makes it a lot less interesting to me, if that makes sense?
- Location
- Land of the Midday Sun
The original PSX US version even got quite a few balance changes over the initial JP version; quite a lot of the changes WotL makes (not all though, and obv. excluding new content) are in fact reverting the game to how it was in the original JP release.
Notably this includes the JP "increases" (in reality, JP costs were often lowered in the US release) and some other balance changes that made the PSX game easier than the JP release.
A similar thing happened with FF7, FWIW, so this is not something new for Square. Hell, the US FF4 release (as FF2) was even backported in Japan as FF4 Easytype.
FunkyEntropy
Occasionally insightful, possibly grumpy
- Location
- Los Angeles
What about it's unlock mechanics?
Surely you can point to other classes that are unlocked like Dark Knight in order to substantiate you opinion?
What does that have to do with anything? Different classes have different unlock mechanics. Please either cite direct quotations of the devs stating their original intent contradicts Dark Knight in plain text or give it a rest about the Pope of Final Fantasy excommunicating the opinions you dislike.
Interesting to know, thank you.
FunkyEntropy
Occasionally insightful, possibly grumpy
- Location
- Los Angeles
Every single class has the same mechanism to unlock it: level up its prerequisite(s) to the appropriate level.
Dark Knight is the only one that changes this formula because it is fundamentally different. It is tacked on. It is not part of the original set of classes and was never intended as such.
Some changes in rereleases/remasters/updates can very much utterly mess up the original design. Persona 5 Royal provides a fantastic example here, where the developers decided to put an unassuming button that upgrades the MC to their late-game powerlevel in a particularly underexplained part of their menu forests, that's furthermore accessible almost right at the start of the game.
In this case the deed was even done by the original developers, but actually taking advantage of the button will still remove a huge chunk of the gameplay experience to the game's detriment.
If Dark Knight is comparable to that, then it probably should be left out of regular playthroughs
In this case the deed was even done by the original developers, but actually taking advantage of the button will still remove a huge chunk of the gameplay experience to the game's detriment.
If Dark Knight is comparable to that, then it probably should be left out of regular playthroughs
I asked my imaginary dev and he said your imaginary dev was wrong. I'm not convinced that you have special insight into dev intent or that your personal preference holds any more weight than normal for an opinion. From what people have been saying there's plenty of ground to criticize Dark Knight without falling back to appeals to nonexistent authority about it, and even if there weren't things to criticize you can always dislike things for personal reasons without going for a moral high ground.
Egleris
Vagrant Dragon
- Location
- Italy
Just wanted to point out - and I'm talking only for myself right now, not for anybody else who might also be against seeing the Dark Knight be used in this playthrough - that, as far as I'm personally concerned, author intent has exactly nothing to do with any of the opinion I'm expressing here or, indeed, any I have ever expressed in the past, in regards to preferring a certain version of a game over another.
For me, it's entirely about how the game itself is experienced by the player, and entirely unrelated with what best fit the imaginary ideas the author never managed to bring to life, or even any particular "original" release. The intentions of the developers are only interesting in a general sense when puzzling out a game's theme on the story level, and ultimately, I don't care about them at all. The gameplay will speak for itself, and if that contradicts the authors, too bad for them - they failed to manifest their vision and instead manifested something else, and the "something else" is what I like, their imagination is completely irrelevant to me when choosing which version of the game I enjoy and what messages the gameplay communicates.
That's why I campaigned so strongly for a modded version of FFT, because I genuinely felt that it would be a better, more enjoyable and more fun way for the game to be experienced. And why, when FFXII comes around (if it ever does), I will recommend that Omicron not play the original PS2 release.
By the same token, I would never recommend the original FFIII over the Pixel Remaster, because being able to save throughout the ending stretch improves the experience by a lot. Similarly, I would recommend the Pixel Remaster over the 3d retool of FFIII that exists, because that one changed the way dungeon exploration was handled enough that it's fundamentally less interesting, and several of the cutscenes badly changed the nature of the game - such as the discovery of the submerged world losing all of its impact due to the superfluous FMV they added.
To me, purity of the experience was never the point; the fun of it is what I care about, and just like making Squires and Archers usable would add to that, inserting a new class that makes many decent or even good classes no longer worth using removes a lot of the fun. That's my focus here.
For me, it's entirely about how the game itself is experienced by the player, and entirely unrelated with what best fit the imaginary ideas the author never managed to bring to life, or even any particular "original" release. The intentions of the developers are only interesting in a general sense when puzzling out a game's theme on the story level, and ultimately, I don't care about them at all. The gameplay will speak for itself, and if that contradicts the authors, too bad for them - they failed to manifest their vision and instead manifested something else, and the "something else" is what I like, their imagination is completely irrelevant to me when choosing which version of the game I enjoy and what messages the gameplay communicates.
That's why I campaigned so strongly for a modded version of FFT, because I genuinely felt that it would be a better, more enjoyable and more fun way for the game to be experienced. And why, when FFXII comes around (if it ever does), I will recommend that Omicron not play the original PS2 release.
By the same token, I would never recommend the original FFIII over the Pixel Remaster, because being able to save throughout the ending stretch improves the experience by a lot. Similarly, I would recommend the Pixel Remaster over the 3d retool of FFIII that exists, because that one changed the way dungeon exploration was handled enough that it's fundamentally less interesting, and several of the cutscenes badly changed the nature of the game - such as the discovery of the submerged world losing all of its impact due to the superfluous FMV they added.
To me, purity of the experience was never the point; the fun of it is what I care about, and just like making Squires and Archers usable would add to that, inserting a new class that makes many decent or even good classes no longer worth using removes a lot of the fun. That's my focus here.
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I find the entire argument a little bit tiresome, really. Dark Knight or different JP costs are not really the things that matter; you'll never unlock the one in a "normal" playthrough, higher costs mean you get to play more of an enjoyable game oh no, it's all a far lesser change than the additional NPCs WotL adds that can be in your party. (And all of the mechanical changes and additions pale in comparison to the characters you could get in the original version and can get in WotL and the base game job selection, further details when Omi gets there.)
So I find this to be a difference that doesn't make a difference. If Omi feels like grinding to mess with the additional WotL content, that's fine, but this isn't a Persona 5 Royal "let's give you an endgame Persona for free as part of the DLC" situation. Omi already has the tools to work on an endgame party if desired, since a party of five Monks, for example, is entirely viable (especially if you aren't adhering to a single-job-challenge ruleset and can crosstrain those Monks in useful secondary skills).
Everything else is vanity and cool special effects.
So I find this to be a difference that doesn't make a difference. If Omi feels like grinding to mess with the additional WotL content, that's fine, but this isn't a Persona 5 Royal "let's give you an endgame Persona for free as part of the DLC" situation. Omi already has the tools to work on an endgame party if desired, since a party of five Monks, for example, is entirely viable (especially if you aren't adhering to a single-job-challenge ruleset and can crosstrain those Monks in useful secondary skills).
Everything else is vanity and cool special effects.
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FunkyEntropy
Occasionally insightful, possibly grumpy
- Location
- Los Angeles
You're arguing that a piece of what is essentially OP DLC content is the same as stuff included in the original game.
It's fundamentally an unserious position.
I don't know enough about either version of FFT to care about Dark Knight itself, I'm saying that trying to cite dev intent without any direct citations doesn't support your position very well.
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Whether or not it is similar to any content from the original game says nothing about authorial intent or lack thereof. Trying to ascribe motives to the devs like this is kind of pointless without direct WoG.
I didn't mean for this to become an actual argument, I just wanted an excuse to post the cool FFT DRK artwork.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
Tactics is fun and balanced most of the time, but sometimes it's not.
I feel like anyone claiming they've never experienced the frustration of hitting Wiegraf or his successor Walls and being put facedown in the dirt repeatedly is a liar. Sometimes you just want to be able to go 'Hold on a sec', go offscreen, come back with different pants on and hit Wiegraf with a flying DDT off the windmill and plant him like a turnip.
Not that Dark Knight is that good, or that this discussion is likely to be relevant anytime in the next 20 hours, but still.
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I'm not sure what that means, sorry.illhousen said: