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Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Finished: Final Fantasy Tactics]

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Adloquium said:
"The friends, rivals, and beautiful women whom they encounter" makes it sound like a rather different genre of game.

I suspect this is how the manual categorizes characters like Julia, Raine, and Ellone, but that raises the question of why they are mentioned separately from "friends" and "rivals".
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It's because romance is evidently a major part of the game's themes to the point where the logo is Squall and Rinoa embracing, and there's been a lot of attention given to that budding romance so far - including several FMVs dedicated to it. And that relationship contrasts with Laguna's failure and [???] with Julia and Raine respectively.

As said above however this is a very 90s way of describing things.
 
To clarify further off what I said earlier: Studio Bent / Studio BentStuff tends to be the one behind these walkthroughs, and the FFVIII one [as with most of the other FF Studio Bent books] is the chunky Ultimania clocking in at over 400 pages. It begins with a bunch of maps [geographic and political], character profiles [including some secondary / tertiary ones], some vehicle information, etc. The next 300ish pages are generally comprehensive walkthrough material with assorted bits and pieces of lore smattered about describing everything from Junctions to Items and so-on. Then there's a bunch of information for secrets [and 'secrets': Again, it's in many regards walkthrough, we know how to get A-Rank Seed isn't much a secret in practice], a little epilogue section that's basically ripped from a Garden teacher's in-universe history / mythology lecture, a ton of screenshots and details of various maps / screens, etc.

If deeply interested in the world's geopolitics you can probably try and hunt somebody down to translate some of the pages on specific regions / maps. See if there's anything interesting included in it.
 
Unrelated to mostly anything: I finally got around to trying out FFVII Remake on PC, and it's interesting to see the characterization here compared to the original FFVII.

The initial Mako Reactor Bombing Mission has Cloud be as aloof and grumpy as in the original, but once Cloud gets to the Sector 7 Slums and meets Tifa, it becomes clear he's just really socially awkward. Which the original FFVII does show us soon afterwards during the Wall Market segment, but it's much more indirect there (possibly due to translation issues), while in Remake Cloud is clearly just not used to social niceties and has to be prodded into them by Tifa.

Speaking of whom, I'm playing with Japanese voices (to compare to the English subtitles), and Tifa is much more bubbly and cheerful than I remember her being in the original. Knowing what we now know about the truth of their past, I can't help but see it as more than a little forced, but that might be my own biases influencing the interpretation. As it is, Tifa is sounding as teenage-girl as Rinoa.

Also Wedge in FFVII has the -ssu sentence endings, which is probably where it comes from for FFVIII's Timber Owl Wedge and FFXIV's Ironworks Engineer Wedge. As with FFXIV (and probably the original FFVII), the English translation doesn't bother to turn it into an equivalent verbal tic.
 
illhousen said:
Narratively, everything flows from the decision to set the game in school with the protagonist being from the graduation class.

So, Squall is 17, so are Selphie and Zell because they're from the same class. As established, Quistis' youth is a major component of her character, on top of which she tries to bond with Squall because she sees him as more of a peer to her than Garden Faculty*. Making her slightly older than Squall is natural, but the older she is, the less resonant her themes become. Rinoa's naivety is a major part of her character, plus she's a love interest, so she needs to be around Squall's age. Making her a year younger could work, but that's about it. Irvine could have been somewhat older, potentially, I'd grant that.

Now, could the game have used a different cast of characters where it would've made sense for them to have a broader age range? Yeah, sure. Quistis could have been an appropriately aged instructor, Selphie or Zell could have been replaced with the resistance members, etc. But, well, that would've been a different game with different characters and plot.

*Afterwork drinking with coworkers was always awkward to her because she couldn't actually drink and because NORG insisted on bringing his gamer chair to the bar.
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Zap Rowsdower said:
Plus changing ages would change character dynamics. Quistis has already been mentioned (though I still firmly maintain without solid proof that she was originally designed to be thirty and her being a teen came later in development after her design had been set), but considering how Squall's whole character arc is about his aloofness being a cover for immaturity and his growth beyond that immaturity, making him older and more experienced than "recent grad" would change the fundamental nature of his character. And as mentioned, Rinoa needs to be of similar age to him for Idealized Romance reasons.

And once Squall is a recent grad, Zell and Selphie need to be as well, because can you imagine if Zell and Selphie were older established SeeDs that Squall looked up to and was trying to prove himself to?
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See, here's the thing, the upshot of these two posts trying to sell me the idea that there's no further meaning to be found regarding the ages has simply further convinced me that:

a. there's a twist related to those ages;
b. you two know what it is;
c. you're trying to snow me about it.
 
foamy said:
See, here's the thing, the upshot of these two posts trying to sell me the idea that there's no further meaning to be found regarding the ages has simply further convinced me that:

a. there's a twist related to those ages;
b. you two know what it is;
c. you're trying to snow me about it.
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What's suspicious about pointing out that, if the ages were moved apart too much, the resulting changes in social dynamics would produce a significantly different game?
 
As things stand, I think Rinoa, Seifer and Irvine could all afford to be a few years older without damaging the dynamics much; Rinoa being more experienced would help explain why she's better at getting Squall out of his shell than Quistis was, Seifer being older just adds to his "badass with troublesome attitude credentials", and Irvine's age doesn't really matter to the character dynamics, he'd be an ass and act the same even if he was 22, or 16. His archetype is just like that.

The main trio being of an age as part of the same class is necessary, and Quistis' age works best the way it is, those I agree on.
 
I do have to respect the irony that the character who most immediately registers as "this age is some anime nonsense, no one is a teacher at 18" is actually the one for whom her age is actually the most appropriate to her character arc.

foamy said:
See, here's the thing, the upshot of these two posts trying to sell me the idea that there's no further meaning to be found regarding the ages has simply further convinced me that:

a. there's a twist related to those ages;
b. you two know what it is;
c. you're trying to snow me about it.
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Zap may absolutely be trying to snow you, but from prior comments illhousen hasn't played VIII and is discovering it all alongside us.
 
foamy said:
See, here's the thing, the upshot of these two posts trying to sell me the idea that there's no further meaning to be found regarding the ages has simply further convinced me that:

a. there's a twist related to those ages;
b. you two know what it is;
c. you're trying to snow me about it.
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I haven't played the game. I do know some spoilers about it, but nothing relating to characters' ages specifically.

Egleris said:
As things stand, I think Rinoa, Seifer and Irvine could all afford to be a few years older without damaging the dynamics much; Rinoa being more experienced would help explain why she's better at getting Squall out of his shell than Quistis was, Seifer being older just adds to his "badass with troublesome attitude credentials", and Irvine's age doesn't really matter to the character dynamics, he'd be an ass and act the same even if he was 22, or 16. His archetype is just like that.

The main trio being of an age as part of the same class is necessary, and Quistis' age works best the way it is, those I agree on.
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Rinoa's inexperience is an important character trait of hers, though, she's just inexperienced in different ways compared to Squall. You can vary her age by a year or so in either direction with little issue, but everything does work better if she's close to Squall's age.

With Seifer it's, like, he's the rival character. He's above Squall in some important matters, like experience and skill, but he's also a peer, someone who could be approached as an equal, which is farther enforced to us with the opening FMV of their duel. Him being slightly older works, him being much older would change the dynamic.

Also, "he couldn't graduate at 18" is "problematic student". "He couldn't graduate at 25" is "how do you do, fellow SeeDs".

Irvine could be older, yeah. Him being still a teenager makes his attitude more palatable since there is a chance he'd grow out of it, but it's not like such considerations have stopped Edgar.
 
illhousen said:
Irvine could be older, yeah. Him being still a teenager makes his attitude more palatable since there is a chance he'd grow out of it, but it's not like such considerations have stopped Edgar.
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I mean, we discussed back when FFIV came out that the ages from the sequel don't really reflect the original game; in that one, it's pretty clear that Cecil, Rosa and Kain are in their early twenties while Edgar is the teenager, with a 16-to-18 age range. As I ignore the sequel, I don't find Edgar a persuasive example here.

But I do agree that having Irvine be younger does makes his attitude easier to stomach, somewhat; I was just pointing out that even if he's a bit older it wouldn't compromise his character the way aging up Quistis would.

For Seifer, if he was 20 rather than 18, that'd just make him more of an inspiration to Squall, and make Seifer's dismissal of him more understandable; I think both of those would work better for the narrative. It's not a huge age difference, but four years feels like a lot more than it is when you're in that age range, and I think it might have added some nuance to their rivalry, and made it less stereotypical.
 
Egleris said:
For Seifer, if he was 20 rather than 18, that'd just make him more of an inspiration to Squall, and make Seifer's dismissal of him more understandable; I think both of those would work better for the narrative. It's not a huge age difference, but four years feels like a lot more than it is when you're in that age range, and I think it might have added some nuance to their rivalry, and made it less stereotypical.
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The problem with that is that since you're out of BGU at 21, Seifer being 20 wouldn't have made him someone to look up to, it would have made him a failure about to flunk out.
 
Also a year's age difference is still, you know, pretty significant at 17? Especially if this is a guy who was in the class above and so who is notably better trained etc. even if he failed the final test to graduate.
 
I was initially going to say making Rinoa much older (ie in her 20s) would feel a bit weird given her speech patterns, which is kind of "casual teenage slang" (almost gyaru-like) that's often depicted as the sort of thing women grow out of after high school.

However, I then tried to think of which party member in FFVIII is the male version, ie not as hyper as Selphie (which would be Zell), but still cheerful and upbeat and extroverted. And the best answer I can think of is Laguna, of the ripe old age of 27.

So upon further thought, Rinoa could be indeed aged to around 30, although presumably Squall would also need to be aged up the same amount to not make it inadvertently weird.
 
I think asking 'can we justify having more varied age in our player characters?' is looking backwards honestly. Sure, you can justify it if you really really have a fetish for a 20 year old being in the party, but look at what them all being in the same 'year group' gets us.

It makes them all Peers. People try to say that one year older younger has an impact in characterization, but I don't really think it does. (Is it really even a year, or just 5 months difference because of a birthday?) Quistis being a peer to all the rest (if a teachers pet) is a key part of her character arc. Seifer acting like hot shit but actually being almost exactly equal to Squall is pretty key. Seifer may like to pretend he's bigger and badder, but in game he's shown to be equal-or-worse then Squall. Squall doesn't look up to Seifer, he sees him as a Rival. Seifer is trying to prove to Squall he's just like him, not an uncooked version of Seifer.

Being Peers means that putting Squall 'in charge' makes sense. He's put in charge basically on vibes and gut-feeling that of these 3 (or 4, or 5 or 6) gaggle of teenagers, he'll probably do okay in leadership. If you have a 20 year old sniping specialist from G-garden, that'll give off responsibility or experience vibes that would undercut Squall's 'I hate being in charge' plot, if it gives him an experienced figure to lean on or ask direction from.

Likewise, having Rinoa being the same age makes her character conflict and immaturity not an age thing, but a personality thing, especially when you can directly compare her to bubbly complete professional Selphie. Flattening the ages makes the characterization differences more pronounced which the game is more interested in.

The game is very focused on the teenager/almost adult phase of life, and any generational friction is framed in a player character/non-player-character conflict. Having increased age range would muddy that theme.
 
RubberBandMan said:
I think asking 'can we justify having more varied age in our player characters?' is looking backwards honestly. Sure, you can justify it if you really really have a fetish for a 20 year old being in the party, but look at what them all being in the same 'year group' gets us.

It makes them all Peers. People try to say that one year older younger has an impact in characterization, but I don't really think it does. (Is it really even a year, or just 5 months difference because of a birthday?) Quistis being a peer to all the rest (if a teachers pet) is a key part of her character arc. Seifer acting like hot shit but actually being almost exactly equal to Squall is pretty key. Seifer may like to pretend he's bigger and badder, but in game he's shown to be equal-or-worse then Squall. Squall doesn't look up to Seifer, he sees him as a Rival. Seifer is trying to prove to Squall he's just like him, not an uncooked version of Seifer.

Being Peers means that putting Squall 'in charge' makes sense. He's put in charge basically on vibes and gut-feeling that of these 3 (or 4, or 5 or 6) gaggle of teenagers, he'll probably do okay in leadership. If you have a 20 year old sniping specialist from G-garden, that'll give off responsibility or experience vibes that would undercut Squall's 'I hate being in charge' plot, if it gives him an experienced figure to lean on or ask direction from.

Likewise, having Rinoa being the same age makes her character conflict and immaturity not an age thing, but a personality thing, especially when you can directly compare her to bubbly complete professional Selphie. Flattening the ages makes the characterization differences more pronounced which the game is more interested in.

The game is very focused on the teenager/almost adult phase of life, and any generational friction is framed in a player character/non-player-character conflict. Having increased age range would muddy that theme.
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Exactly this. Like, we shouldn't get it twisted - improbably low ages for characters in some kind of high-skill industry is a trope as old as time, but as I observed awhile back in the thread FF8 is about the characters being this young and hormonal and volatile in a way that many of those other examples forget to or fumble badly. This party is a pack of weird hyperlethal teenagers figuring out who they are, one of the most prominent throughlines is about the vast gulf between how Squall presents himself and how he is inside because of what seems to be a warped preconception about what being mature is, Rinoa is fighting for independence from her father and to prove she has what it takes to determine her own future, and when you put the two of them together you get this chemistry where Squall seems fascinated/compelled by Rinoa in a way that draws him to her and makes him care about what she wants despite himself.
 
I started reading the FF5 section and got semi-nerd-sniped.
Omicron said:
I wonder what a meteorite of that size would do in the real world. Well, it's a trick question; it wouldn't stay 'that size' post impact. For a meteorite to remain that size it would need to be much bigger before hitting the ground, although not so big that it would disintegrate entirely. Chixtulub was, what, 1km? We're far from it of course but this rock is like… 15-20 times the width of, let's say, an average 175cm man… Call it 40 meters post-impact? Yeah, I don't think that forest would be standing there after impact. This thing would be standing in the middle of a giant crater after annihilating much of the region.
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Impact Earth! is a website created by someone at Purdue University, which simulates meteorite impacts pretty well. Assuming a meteor with a density around 2000 kg/m3​ (low but not unrealistic for rocks) hits sedimentary rock at an angle of 45 degrees and a velocity of 11 km/s (about as slow as you can expect anything originating outside Earth's sphere of influence to hit)...

The meteor needs to be over 100 meters wide to "reach the ground in a broken condition" instead of "burst[ing] into a cloud of fragments". As in, at 100 meters it does the latter, at 101 it does the former. So let's assume the meteor was originally 101 meters across. The transient crater would be almost 260 meters across and over 90 meters deep, but it would collapse into one about 325 meters across and 70 meters deep sooner or later. At a distance of 0.01 km, "Your position was inside the transient crater and ejected upon impact."

Just outside the crater, it would be dangerously loud and most trees would be blown down, but the meteorite hit the ground at "only" 1.4 km/s, so there's no fireball or anything. If you're more than a couple km from the crater, your hearing won't even be damaged, though your ears might hurt. And if this meteor is from the moon or something, it might hit the earth slower than Impact Earth! will let me simulate.

If we take the overworld graphics of the meteor's skid marks as a scientifically accurate depiction of where broken fragments of the meteor hit the ground, the impact angle was probably closer to 20 degrees, which according to Impact Earth! requires a projectile 209 meters across to avoid bursting into fragments. The transient crater would be about 360 meters across, but standing just outside that crater wouldn't be much more dangerous than the first guess.

Anyways, being near this kind of meteor impact could be surprisingly survivable. Galuf's hearing would be damaged, but it wasn't in mint condition to start with.
 
I am finally roused to post, and it's the discussion on manuals.

As someone who has genuine NES nostalgia (the first video game system that was *mine* and not a hand-me-down) those instruction manuals were a big deal when you were a kid, and absolutely necessary. A lot of the modern idea of NES games being bizarre or hard to figure out is due to that. While some games like Mario were made with a 'learn by messing around' approach a complex sim or RPG wouldn't be able to do that within the limits of the system.

Sadly, thanks to the prevalence of rentals which often had, at best, a little instructional sticker on the case instead of a manual, you got to have a taste of the "I don't know what to DO" even back then. But the original Final Fantasy is a lot less mysterious when you have the Nintendo Power Final Fantasy guide that was bundled with it in a deal, for example.
 
I've seen a couple of discussions about that tendency in Final Fantasy and other JRPGs to build up one mundane threat and then pivot to something else for the final boss. Some people seem to think this is inherently a bad thing, but I don't think that's necessarily true. It works quite well when the mortal evil and the space flea from nowhere are homousian, rather than just connected by plot stuff.

For instance, look at Final Fantasy VII. Shinra and Jenova are obviously connected through Sephiroth; the former created and employed him, and then he went off the rails to serve Jenova's ends. But more importantly, they are villains of the same substance. Both of them plan to exploit the Planet's energy, doing great harm to its people and natural life in the process, in order to gain power over the world. Jenova/Sephiroth wants to become a god, Shinra just wants to consolidate their stranglehold on the world economy, but they're doing substantially the same thing for substantially the same reasons.

I think Squaresoft Enix always intends for their last-minute-twist-villains to be homousian like that, but it doesn't always work. FF4 is a good example. Zeromus seems intended to be an incarnation of hate, a stand-in for all the hateful villainy in the entire game, but the text of the game makes him seem like an incarnation of Zemus's hate specifically. And Zemus's hate is arguably responsible for the villainy of characters mind-controlled by Zemus, but that means the early-game villain is just a patsy performing evil acts for reasons beyond his comprehension. There's no way to make them line up, except a crude casual chain.

Obviously, it doesn't help that Zeromus was revealed so late in the game. But I don't think that would be as much of a problem if the villains were more thematically homousian. If all the villains were motivated by their own personal hatred (or at least manipulated by a Zemus who mundanely played on their hatred), and after defeating Zemus you had to fight some kind of hate-spirit angry that you disrupted its source of power, it would still feel out of left field, but it wouldn't feel arbitrary. You spent the whole game figuratively fighting hate, now you're literally fighting hate.
 
dinomannitro6 said:
Woe, Tumblr poll be upon ye

View: https://www.tumblr.com/tourneys-by-me/750549849906233344?source=share

in a tournament for characters that use multiple elements, who should win among; Y'shtola, Lenna, Rydia, Terra, and Squall
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As can be clearly seen, Squall and Rydia got decapitated, so they're disqualified by default. Y'shtola got her staff cut, so probably out of the running too.

Out of remaining two characters, my bet is on Terra. She can max out her stats and spam Meltdown/Ultima or just hit people with her sword.
 
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