No, that one I think is entirely down to Squall just not bothering to register people's existence unless he has to for his job. He's just extremely bad at that kind of routine socializing.
If they had wanted it to be memory issues, all it would have taken would be making it clear Squall knew who this guy was during the graduation ceremony. Have the Faculty call out a fourth name when they were announcing the graduates, maybe.
Since he was conspicuously unnamed even then, and Cid's advice to him was a tongue-in-cheek comment on him being a background character, it was pretty clearly signaled that this is just a joke that this guy is particularly unmemorable.
That's really fascinating. Like, I was already aware of Cloud's deal to an extent because he's the protagonist of one of the most popular games of all time, and I saw him in Advent Children years before I played FF7, but I have absolutely zero awareness of Squall's character in outside appearances beyond what's been said in the thread. I'll have to look up his Dissidia appearances once I'm done with the game.
Being fair on "stoic cool badass quipping mercanary" Squall, he is decent at coming off like that to people that don't know him that well since like 95% of his basketcase issues all take place in his head.
Which, considering that it cost the Garden Seifer, one of their best fighters, was probably a bad call... But then again Seifer's dream was to be the Sorceress's Knight so he was most likely going to defect anyway at some point.
You know in retrospect, Balamb probably could have just told Seifer "oh yeah we have a sorceress right around here, look there's Edea, don't you want to listen to orders so you can grow up big and strong and be a knight for her?" Then if the mind-control theory is true, EZ just point him and go "oh no we gotta find the evil mind control mastermind and save the sorceress!"
I mean or it could drastically backfire like it has now, because Seifer is kind of a nutcase. Either or.
Also, the comparison between Cid and Edea with Gomez and Morticia has now got me thinking of how FF8 would play out with Hal and Lois (Malcolm in the Middle) in Cid and Edea's roles, since I was watching both recently.
Squall and Malcolm do internally monologue a lot after all… but Francis should probably be kept away from GFs at all costs
Also, I've been thinking something along those lines for a while now, and the main reason I'm ambivalent about it is that I thought there were more than one sorceress going around at the same time, because I was under the impression that Esthar's ruler Adel and Edea existed at the same time... But since recent developments it seems that I was mistaken about that, the fate of Esthar's ruler is seemingly unknown after the country withdrew into obscurity?
So it's entirely possible that there is only one sorceress alive at a given time... In which case I feel like the 'immortality through successive bodyjacking' theory has some very strong legs.
You know in retrospect, Balamb probably could have just told Seifer "oh yeah we have a sorceress right around here, look there's Edea, don't you want to listen to orders so you can grow up big and strong and be a knight for her?"
Actually, huh, knowing that Edea has her own personal SeeDs does put Seifer's focus on this and being a hero in an interesting light. Did he get a hint of the original intent of the organization and go all in, or was he predisposed and it was revealed to him so he switched sides? Does he just have no idea?
There's an interesting irony here with how much each of Squall and Seifer have tied their identities to one of the two sides of Balamb - profit vs ideals - and what they've done and where they've ended up as a result.
- The civil war is next. The section already opens a bit differently, with Zell saying "We arrived in time!" rather than the English "Alright, the Garden's safe"; same sentiment, different expression of it. Then Squall also doesn't think "they did it", but rather "I hope they others are safe", which gives a different feeling as the follow-up to the base explosion; not sure if it's more or less effective, but it feels softer. The sequence then still follows into "let's warn the Headmaster", same as the English version.
The lack of object-subject in Japanese grammar strikes again. Zell's line is literally "no incidents" (無事, "buji"), which is generally translated as "safe" or "peaceful". So the immediate interpretation is Zell happy that the Garden is safe, hence the English translation. However, it could also potentially be interpreted as "we made it here without incident", so saying "we arrived in time" is a valid translation too.
Squall's line is closer to the English translation: he says Selphie's group "must have done (the job) well", before correcting himself that the missiles might still be on their way (implying that Selphie's group failed but Balamb Garden hasn't seen the consequences yet). It does feel like the Italian translation tries to soften Squall quite a bit, often beyond anything in the text itself.
- In the interaction at the Quad, after saying that we're on the Headmaster's side, there's a line that in English is clearly intended to belong to a student, "I thought so! Who's this Master anyway?", but in the Italian version, while the dialogue isn't attributed to anybody, it's framed as if it was a follow up line from Squall, since it goes "at least, I think so; I don't know who this Master even is." That's an interesting quirk that seemed worth mentioning.
The context of the Japanese script is fairly clear that it's not Squall saying it; "I thought so" is the better translation, as in "that's right" or "you're right". The second part of the line is "(I've) never met/heard of this Master before", with a sentence ending ("mon na") that's way too friendly and casual to be Squall. The English translation conveys that casual-ness well.
- The dialogue with Cid is different. He opens with "you too, run away and help the other escape", to which Squall thinks to himself "run away?!", clearly none too happy with the idea. When he says he has a lot to report, and Cid brushes him off with "later", instead of thinking that Cid might die, he just thinks "but why...?" to himself, and when Cid ask him if he's alright, he wonders and then asks Cid what he wants to do, same as in the English version. The next deviation is that, in Squall's thoughts, he doesn't think about Cid's plan, instead remarking that, if anything useful can be done, he wants to be a part of it, which is an interesting change.
Yeah, I wasn't sure whether to mention it earlier, but Omicron's summary of the initial conversation was a bit different than what was in the Japanese script, and I assumed it was just a minor mistake, since it's a long sequence to write out. Entirely understandable, and really not that important even in the context of just this scene.
Specifically, instead of Cid saying that he told Fujin and Raijin to spread the word to evacuate, Cid is saying he can't give the order to evacuate, because the broadcast system isn't working. Squall then reports that he already told Xu, Fujin, and Raijin the situation, and they're spreading the word.
Which leads Cid to give the order (well, phrased more like a request, like the kindly old man he is) for Squall and co. to also join the others in informing people about the evacuation, then evacuate themselves. Squall wants to report, Cid brushes him off, and Squall's line is the unhelpfully vague "Headmaster..." with no elaboration. So lots of potential interpretation there.
The rest of the dialogue is closer to the English translation. Again, the Italian translation is softening Squall quite a bit.
Also incidentally, I'd meant to post this earlier, but the Japanese script site does an interesting and fun bit of formatting when Squall is thinking about the reasons he wants to stay and save Balamb Garden. I don't know how to format it properly here, so I'll post a screenshot:
It's presented as a dialogue in Squall's mind. Squall is thinking "Why?", then answering himself "Because it seems like the Headmaster's plan is going to fail?", then following with "Is that all?", and speculating in quick succession "Because simply evacuating is boring?" and "Because this is an important place?"
I don't know how it was presented in the game, but just from the script site, it give the impression that Squall is thinking a mile a minute, in circles, trying to come up with reasons and second-guessing himself.
Visiting the cafeteria gives us another comedy beat of Zell failing to get hot dogs - Squall explains the whole hot dog (or bread, in Japanese) situation to Rinoa as the queue gets progressively closer to the counter only to run out just as Zell is up. Flawless.
According to the Japanese script, if you talk to Zell after this (maybe you automatically talk to Zell?), he tries to play it off as Totally Not A Big Deal, and "one meal a day is enough", and "recently I've been gaining weight". Which seems a little unhealthy for a growing boy in a very active profession, and also a little sad.
No entries in the Japanese script site for the quad area. Everything else on the tour, including meeting Ellone in the library, is pretty much the same.
Sadly, I can confirm that the way Norg speaks is accurately translated from the Japanese script. The "Fushururu" and "Bujurururu" stuff is directly transliterated, and the all-caps and hyphens are a decent way of representing the dots between words (ie sets of kanji/kana that represent words/concepts when translated), more formally called the interpunct. As an example, translating literally, Norg demanding Squall's report is written as "You ・ About the Sorceress ・ Give Report".
On reading the Japanese script, I think I might have identified the point of confusion. Which is, once again, Japanese grammar.
The rest of your interpretation is pretty much correct: Martine is Norg's subordinate, and Norg sent him the order to kill/defeat (倒す, "taosu", which is more literally "bring down"; the original FFI famously mistranslated it as "knock down") the Sorceress, using Galbadia Garden. Squall's squad happened to drop by Galbadia Garden at that time, so Martine used them to pretend it was a joint Balamb-Galbadia Garden mission, using one truth and one lie: the truth is the order did come from Balamb Garden, while the lie is claiming Cid was the one who gave the order, rather than Norg.
As you said, hot potato of responsibility for the assassination. That part of the English translation is accurate, accounting for Norg's weird way of speaking.
The line in contention is the quoted one, and the problem is the way "Sorceress" in Japanese is 魔女, "majo". As in, any reference to the concept of "sorceress" in this game is 魔女, whether it means The Sorceress Edea, The Sorceress of Esthar, a Sorceress, all Sorceresses, or the basic category of "sorceress" singular or plural. This is a general issue with nouns in Japanese, where there's no indication outside of surrounding context of plurals or specifics.
Sometimes the text is kind enough to clarify which Sorceress is meant, such as "Sorceress Edea" being 魔女イデア. But here, it's just 魔女.
So for a translator grinding away at the text and possibly working under a time constraint, the natural interpretation is "Cid dispatched SeeD to kill the Sorceress", as in Sorceress Edea. After all, that's what "Sorceress" has been referring to in the entire conversation so far.
But with the added context of "the Edea assassination plan was ordered by Norg", the proper translation would have been "Cid dispatched SeeD to subjugate Sorceresses". As in SeeD is an anti-Sorceress force, which we also explicitly learned later. This should also apply to other comments about SeeD's mission being "to defeat the Sorceress"; it should be "to defeat Sorceresses".
Here, Norg is condemning Cid as an idiot for having high-minded ideals like using SeeD specifically as an anti-Sorceress force, while Norg is afraid of what would happen if SeeD fails at that task, against any Sorceress. Which, given the failed assassination of Edea, is kind of a valid point.
Of course, things might have been very different if the Gardens had provided full and open support to the assassination team, rather than the skullduggery between Norg and Martine, but so it goes. Also I suspect the plan would never have gone through anyway, because as Cid later says, the Sorceress is too high-level.
A bit of extra nuance: "You're my only hope" is probably a Star Wars reference for the line "You're the only ones I can depend on". As in a plural "you", so not just Squall alone.
Part of the limitations of English. "Headmaster" is easily differentiated in Japanese due to being kanji, 学園長. Meanwhile, "Master" for both "Garden Master" and "Master Norg" are in katakana, マスター. So "Headmaster" is a position, while "Master" is a title.
I had to comment on this because for Japan in general, while "Master" is also used in the same way English uses the term, a more common context to use "Master" is to refer to the "bar master". As in bartender, or bar owner/barkeeper. So I can't help but imagine Norg using his huge banana-finger hands to mix drinks with a regular-sized cocktail shaker.
But to go back to this scene, his assumption of the whole scenario is almost certainly "they're here for Edea and Cid sent them to retrieve her, I'm just in the way" rather than "they're here to assassinate me." He has absolutely no idea that SeeD has been hired by the anti-Galbadian resistance and are actually here for his head. Or, at least, Seifer is. This whole thing probably didn't change Deling's opinion of SeeD - he probably expected something like this sooner rather than later - but it probably improved his trust of Edea massively. The fact that a strike team was ready to go the instant he announced that he was working with Edea meant that Garden has probably cut all ties with her and might potentially be trying to kill her. Her defection is legit.
One thing which really struck me about the secret plan Norg had with Martine was how no part of it was due to the raid on the Timber Broadcasting Station and its aftermath. Norg and Martine had always planned on taking the Sorceress down. If the TV Station raid hadn't happened, the Balamb SeeDs would not have gone to Galbadia Garden and gotten roped into Martine's scheme. Zell would not have blurted out Balamb Garden's involvement on live TV (which caused the other SeeDs enough concern that they felt they had to report to the nearest Garden), and the Timber Owls would probably have been stuck doing ineffective resistance against Galbadia with the Squall Squad helping them (and wishing they were anywhere else).
All this happened because Seifer was such a messy combat monster, and Deling turned out to be completely collateral damage.
It's presented as a dialogue in Squall's mind. Squall is thinking "Why?", then answering himself "Because it seems like the Headmaster's plan is going to fail?", then following with "Is that all?", and speculating in quick succession "Because simply evacuating is boring?" and "Because this is an important place?"
Being fair, the one time Fire Emblem did decide to make a game where you could potentially pick a side to deal with all the social and political problems from the point of view of different factions, it's resulted in the FE fandom trying to brutally murder each other over said choices for the last almost five years.
(But yes, there is basically always a Dragon or Demon God or Something at the end of an FE game)
I would like to shoutout FE Radiant Dawn here. It does interrupt its big messy conflict - where the PoV continously switches so you get at least some perspective from all three factions - with the appearance of an evil goddess, but it makes the various bad actors willingly throw their lot in with the goddess, so the heroic team-up gets to kill all the kings, generals and politicians that kept them at each other's throat on the way to the Big Bad Mommy.
(It's also the heavily worshipped goddess of Order that takes the villain mantle, while the publicly reviled goddess of Chaos is revealed to be chill and kinda what the world needs. The game genuinely has some neat politics)
It would be fascinating to have a Final Fantasy game, or JRPG really, swap out the order of things. A Hero's Journey to defeat The Demon King being completed by Disc 2... now deal with the multiple kings and churches and Hidden Elf Villages you found getting into politics.
The manga Maoyū: Maō Yūsha starts with the climactic final battle between Hero and Demon Lord, but then the demon lord brings up the point that killing her would just lead to another lord being chosen, and while that's happening the human countries would turn on each other, trade routes would fracture, and famine would kill thousands. So instead the two join forces to increase the quality of life for an entire continent through improved agricultural practices, education, trade deals, and chipping away at the power base of the secularised and zealous church, all while the war "continues" in the background.
It's presented as a dialogue in Squall's mind. Squall is thinking "Why?", then answering himself "Because it seems like the Headmaster's plan is going to fail?", then following with "Is that all?", and speculating in quick succession "Because simply evacuating is boring?" and "Because this is an important place?"
This is the case in both English and Italian, yes. There's a line at the top that is the question Squall is asking himself, and a follow-up line that is the answer Squall is giving himself, all in the same dialogue box. It really conveys how overwhelmed by thoughts Squall is quite well.
That was my impression as well - until I compared the translation, I kept wondering "why people say that Squall is so unlikable", but the reason seems apparent now. Still, I'd like to think that the Italian take is probably a better approach; it's not like his characterization is changed, he's just less abrasive and the character development is more gradual. But that's just my opinion - what's everybody else's take on this?
Anyway, this was a small section in gameplay terms, but with a lot of dialogue.
- In terms of changes, there's barely any in Squall's opening thoughts for this section; instead of asking himself if he had done the right thing letting the others go, and then wondering on their safety, he instead strongly states he was wrong to let them go (which we know from the optional game over where the Garden gets blow up to be false) before asking himself if any of them survived. I'm only reporting it for completeness, but it really change nothing on the front of conveying how Squall is feeling guilty for things he didn't really have that much control over, making the point of how hard it is for him to deal with responsibility all the same.
- More notable is that, when Squall vows to get even in his last thoughts, in the Italian version he swears he'll get even with the Sorceress, not with Seifer, and instead of asking "who is she?", he says "this is all her fault", and he states with certainty that it was her to send the missiles, rather than asking himself if that was the case. That's a serious difference in emphasis - English Squall is hung up on a childhood rivalry that's grown into true enmity, and only curious about the woman behind it, but Italian Squall actually wants to payback the woman who almost murdered all the people he knows and tried to bomb his home, and Seifer just merits a mere passing mention. That feels like a very significant change one of the translators must have made from the original Japanese.
- On the Rinoa tour, when she asks him to be more expressive, she does it by saying "you should try to have more fun, we're not in danger anymore", instead of the English version, which is more neutral and could easily be read as Rinoa saying "make this more fun for me". It's an interesting added nuance, in that it makes it clear that Rinoa's actions here are primarily meant to cheer up Squall himself, which implies she's noticed he was being morose and took it upon herself to help him get out of his funk. It fits her dynamic personality, and makes her pursuit
of Squall more about himself than about her - I think, having this line to check, this is why I feel more positively about Rinoa pushing Squall's boundaries the same as I did with Aerith pushing Cloud's: it's made clearer (to me, at least) that she's doing it for him, not for herself. Interesting to realize this is due to the translation... although, I suppose I've done a decent enough job of showing that this translation does a lot of work to sand off Squall roughest edges and making the development of the romance between him and Rinoa a lot more gradual and believable.
- The rest of the tour goes the same, with no significant deviation at any point, discussion with Ellone included.
- Meeting with Norg opens by changing the "three seconds line"; instead the faculty just says "when Norg calls, you should show up immediately", followed by Norg himself saying "IMMEDIATELY!" as his opening line. He still speaks in all-caps hyphenated language in this version. However, as an additional difference, his speech is grammatically incorrect in Italian, in that he's often missing prepositions, articles and pronouns; it's not enough to make him incomprehensible, in fact he's pretty clear, but it really gives off the feeling of somebody speaking a tongue they're not fully conversant with, and having difficulty with structuring sentences properly.
- The faculty is way more aggressive here, shouting a "don't waste time!" when Squall is gathering his thoughts, instead of the more instructive "be concise and quick" he offered in English.
- The dialogue with Norg proceeds the same; when the faculty members say "they sound like Cid", Norg then uses a more general phrasing of "Cid wants SeeD to kill the Sorceress", which is confusing and feels like a non-sequitur in the speech, but with @Adloquium clarification, is clearly just a preview of the revelation about SeeD's true purpose that is phrased in a confusing manner.
- With that, things just move to the fight, which features no other changes in Norg's words. Also, from my read of the scene after the battle, Rinoa puts one arm around Squall's shoulder (the one away from the camera) and rests her head on his shoulder, so it's a brief half-hug.
- The discussion with Cid in the infirmary follows the same beats, which is good, since it means the plot revelations were left pretty much identical, and there's no need to worry about any nuance to them being lost in translation.
- Ellone's greeting to Squall, once he goes to collect her for the White Seed, is a more friendly "Hi!" over the more confrontational "What" she opens with in English. Squall is then more forceful in asking explanation once she admits she knows Laguna, demanding that she tells him everything she knows, to which she answer that it's a complicated explanation. When she confirms that Squall was seeing the past, he's more on the ball, saying "so, it was the past we were seeing", suggesting that Ellone's words confirmed it for him the same they did for us the readers, instead of his surprise in the English version.
Then, a radical change in the translation happens when, after Ellone asks Squall if he would change the past, should he have the ability, instead of asking if she's responsible, he actually follows her question by answering "and who would change the past? You?", before moving to ask if she's the one sending him to the past - the implication here being that Squall is worried she might be trying to use him for her own ends. Which makes her follow up "sorry" work better, in context, as both an admission that she's in fact doing this, and an apology for doing so. For a single line change, it changes the flow of the conversation substantially, I think.
- Ellone's parting words use the plural "you", as @Adloquium said the original Japanese also did.
- The weird line where English Squall uncharacteristically says "I'll be the first one to admit that I'm here because of other people" is a more thoughtful "of course, everybody only exists because others did before them; so do I", which is more of him making a philosophical point against himself as a follow-up from his preceding "I made it here alone, by myself, and without help", which was followed by "well, as a child, I needed others too", presenting a more straightforward thought process were Squall is, once again, basically arguing with himself, answering his claims of independent self-reliance with the fact that nobody can truly exist without others, at least as a baby. From which he responds with the "I'm not a child anymore, I am fine by myself now", which is then followed by the admission he does need other people, even if he doesn't want them, same as the English line. Overall the message is the same, but the flow of the thought feels more natural to me.
That's it for the translation. However! We're about to come up with a section that include time-sensitive forever-missable character interactions - in fact, these two little vignettes are among the easiest things to miss in all of FFVIII (which is no mean feat) and most people never find them without checking a guide first. In fact, I'm willing to bet a lot of people who have played FFVIII in its entirety don't even know these two scenes can happen.
Naturally, this means that a blind play will miss them; however, once one know what to do, the scenes are easy to find, they're both somewhat funny, and explaining what to do would not require any meaningful spoiler. So, @Omicron, would you like to be given hints on how to find these scenes, or would that be too much of a spoiler?
Part of the limitations of English. "Headmaster" is easily differentiated in Japanese due to being kanji, 学園長. Meanwhile, "Master" for both "Garden Master" and "Master Norg" are in katakana, マスター. So "Headmaster" is a position, while "Master" is a title.
I had to comment on this because for Japan in general, while "Master" is also used in the same way English uses the term, a more common context to use "Master" is to refer to the "bar master". As in bartender, or bar owner/barkeeper. So I can't help but imagine Norg using his huge banana-finger hands to mix drinks with a regular-sized cocktail shaker.
Honestly, I'd be down for a version of the script where the secret shadowy master of the school being big-hearted Bartender NORG came as a shock to the team.
Zell falls to his knees in despair over NORG's lifeless body. He'll never get to try Master NORG's Frank collins cocktail again...!
I have to kind admire this game for pulling out a setting status quo secret backer antagonist who looks like a monstrous humanoid attached to a massive floating throne-machine and hides away in a baroque underground level while commanding shady special agents, and his motivation is just... money. Profiting from international tensions and conflict.
Now we're digging into Squall's psychology and the root of his feelings of isolation and necessity to be self-made and detached though, hell yeah, but also, oh no, young Squall left all alone...
I'm grabbed enough by that stopping point this update that honestly I'm not as intrigued by whatever is going on with Ellone by comparison, though, the little that she expresses clearly, combined with the admission that she's the one connecting Squall and co's minds with Laguna and the people near him in the past, is curious. I'm not sure if that's going to pan out, but looking at that, and Squall, and also the unelaborated reveal that Cid and Edea were married, I'm wondering if the connections between people having the power to save the future is going to come out as a major theme for the story.
Geez. Long thread. The first two games make up the first "page" of threadmarks, so I guess I'll comment on those in this post.
Final Fantasy 1
Pretty much everything I know about this game comes from Dan Floyd's FF animation series and a single-white-mage challenge run, and reading this taught me surprisingly little that I didn't already know. It offered a different perspectives on the things I already knew, but apparently it's hard to talk about FF1's storytelling without saying basically everything about the story, and it's hard to talk about completing FF1 in a weird way without saying basically everything about the gameplay systems you need to exploit.
The space station dungeon is new, though. And I didn't know the monk was the class with the highest physical DPS. That's neat! And I guess that gives it a clear role, distinguishing it from its fellow non-spellcasting classes.
I wonder what the thief does...
Article:
The THIEF is a fun Class, but certainly not the best of the bunch. If not for the upgrade to NINJA, they would be the worst. They can't steal as a series veteran might expect, nor is their high Luck score useful for much other than running away. They can use mediocre gear, and their Hit Rate only increases at a moderate speed. There's really just not a whole lot to be said for the THIEF until they become a NINJA. At least they get some use out of the otherwise pointless family-related swords.
Article:
So, in the Thief we find a below-average attacker throughout the game with at best average defense and HP that can run with a higher success rate than other classes IF you're playing with bug fixes (i.e., NOT on the NES). Compared to the Fighter, this class is inferior in quite literally every possible way.
...
Before class change, the Thief is essentially a weaker Red Mage without magic.
...
I don't have any particular hatred toward the Thief. Truth is, I feel bad for the poor lil' guy, and wish the class had been designed better and unencumbered by bugs. But the reality is that the Thief the least effective class in the game.
Article:
Why settle for a Ninja when you can have someone who "specializes" in melee or magic? The Red Wizard may be be a second-rate Fighter, White Mage and Black Mage rolled into one. But if so, that makes the Ninja a second-rate fighter and a third rate Black Mage rolled into one.
Oh. Not much then.
Final Fantasy 2
As a game which figured out ways to tell a story in the NES's technical constraints, there's a lot more story-wise I hadn't known about this game. But I don't have much to comment about for most of it.
Most of it.
Right. So. I absolutely, 100% wasn't expecting a scene of the shapeshifting lamia using Hilda's face as a mask to try and lure Firion into a position of weakness by attempting to seduce him - or maybe I might have in a general sense of "seduce him" but not her literally trying to proposition him for sex and him falling for it.
I knew this scene was coming, because Dan Floyd mentioned it. I didn't expect it to be a pre-bossfight cutscene, though. The seduction scene would have been weird no matter what happened next, but for me personally, "the princess is a lamia with a honeypot trap" was definitely more surprising than "primitive sex scene". Still not as surprising as Leviathan, a tiered surprise where the non-resolution is even more shocking than the neat environmental design and...muddled? worldbuilding
One narrative flourish that I think worked really well:
I've never played FF2, or even know anything about the plot, but I 100% don't believe that this is the end of the game. There are too many obviously hanging plot threads and there's a certain... vibe to the endgame of a JRPG (my favourite part tbqh) that you haven't hit yet.
Another thing I learned was gameplay-related. A lot of people say FF2 isn't much fun to play, and most people just point to the leveling system as an explanation. You can't get higher-level spells without spamming their low-level versions, you can't get tougher unless you get hit, etc. But this Let's Play has indicated a bunch of other gameplay deficits.
Monster design jumps out at me; there multiple opponents that were just too tough. If you're not low-level enough to get crushed, but also not horribly overleveled, fighting the Adamantortoise or the Red Soul or similar ends up being a slow grindfest. Keep scratching the other guy and healing what damage it manages to inflict. And as Omicron complained about at length, the "boss fights" are all just slightly tougher random encounters. Not even interesting random encounters.
The vast majority of these bosses either only have basic physical attacks and high defense, or have one party-wide damage attack like Blaze or Fire X. I'm dealing with the status system far more in random encounters than in any boss fight. Because, again, they aren't actual boss fights!
Speaking of random encounters, the dungeon design is kinda baffling. Dungeons are full of these empty dead-end rooms which literally just exist to punish the player with a few random encounters if they walk through the wrong door (with few if any hints which doors are right or wrong). They're just mazes which punish you for going the wrong way, with the occasional treasure chest or event flag or quasi-boss-fight.
The magic problems are also something that I haven't heard about before. At most, people bring it up as an aside before talking about how the best way to grind is to have your party attack itself. And the magic thing is way worse than optimal grinding strats being silly! Even when playing normally, the core combat loop is uninteresting enough that Omicron didn't notice Maria getting swapped because he was just autobattling through everything without any consequence. Magic being so jank saps the depth out of combat, and that issue compounds over time as the player continues to not cast worthless spells which become more worthless every time you move to a new area with stronger enemies.
But all I hear about is vague stuff about bad progression system and specific mockery of how you can level HP. Which is a shame, because the flaws that don't get mentioned are interesting! Hearing more about FF2's level systems than "learning by doing is bad game design" (obviously untrue, systems fitting that broad umbrella work in other games) helps explain what's bad about the systems in this game and lets you think about ways it might have been done better.
- On the Rinoa tour, when she asks him to be more expressive, she does it by saying "you should try to have more fun, we're not in danger anymore", instead of the English version, which is more neutral and could easily be read as Rinoa saying "make this more fun for me".
If it matters, the Japanese script is also fairly neutral, with Rinoa saying "Squall... you know, a tour is supposed to be happier. (Could you make it) A bit more fun... umm, at least like a normal tour?"
The "could you make it" bit is implied, at least in my interpretation, so other readings may also be valid. In any case, Rinoa is pushing back on Squall's terse "Cafeteria" and "Parking lot" responses, expecting a more happy and peppy tour. This demand for More Fun might be for just her own benefit, or it could be for the benefit of everyone on that tour, the tour guide included.
- The faculty is way more aggressive here, shouting a "don't waste time!" when Squall is gathering his thoughts, instead of the more instructive "be concise and quick" he offered in English.
Interestingly the Japanese line is longer, and thus less harsh than both the Italian and English translations. The full line is "Give your report quickly. Start with the conclusion, and make the rest of the progress (report) brief."
So the instructions are not only to make the report concise, but also giving advice on how to do so. Possibly they had rather too much experience with other teenage SeeDs never learning how to properly write reports.
Which is another minor thing I should point out: the person in the Garden Faculty outfit standing next to Norg is not Garden Faculty, according to the dialogue box label. Garden Faculty are consistently ガーデン教師 ("Garden kyoushi"), while this person is listed as 事務員 ("jimuin"). Which translates to "clerk" or "office worker", more literally "administrative staff".
So this person is likely Norg's personal secretary, possibly on top of any other roles in the teaching staff.
- Ellone's greeting to Squall, once he goes to collect her for the White Seed, is a more friendly "Hi!" over the more confrontational "What" she opens with in English.
Hm. From Omicron's write-up, Ellone greets Squall (for the second time) with "Yes, Squall?"
The Japanese script does have Ellone technically say "What", but it's said in a playful drawn-out way, so it's an affectionate "what", rather than blunt and confrontational. The impression is more like "What is it, sweetie", although given Ellone does address Squall by name, the English translation (of "Yes, Squall?") fits.
Amusingly, Ellone answers Squall's first "Are you... Ellone?" with "Yes, (I'm) Ellone", which immediately reminds me of KonoSuba's "Hai, Kazuma desu".
It's always a bit jarring to think about, but none of the player party (Laguna and co. excluded) are old enough to drink, by Japanese law. Age of adulthood in Japan was 20 up until 2019, when it was lowered to 18, but drinking age is still 20.
Which might seem irrelevant to fictional settings, but most Japanese media is careful not to portray underage drinking, at least without a lot of in-character comments about how this is a Totally Different Setting with Totally Different Laws.
It's always a bit jarring to think about, but none of the player party (Laguna and co. excluded) are old enough to drink, by Japanese law. Age of adulthood in Japan was 20 up until 2019, when it was lowered to 18, but drinking age is still 20.
Which might seem irrelevant to fictional settings, but most Japanese media is careful not to portray underage drinking, at least without a lot of in-character comments about how this is a Totally Different Setting with Totally Different Laws.
In fact, thanks to my compulsive screenshotting of every single dialogue line in each game, I can say that there is an interaction in Dollet where Squall can talk to a bartender who starts listing out the (alcoholic) drinks he has on tap, before realizing that the group are teenagers and telling them that they shouldn't be in there. We're explicitly denied the option to do underaged drinking!
But all I hear about is vague stuff about bad progression system and specific mockery of how you can level HP. Which is a shame, because the flaws that don't get mentioned are interesting! Hearing more about FF2's level systems than "learning by doing is bad game design" (obviously untrue, systems fitting that broad umbrella work in other games) helps explain what's bad about the systems in this game and lets you think about ways it might have been done better.
A big part of why these playthroughs are... Let's say semi-blind is because I am very much trying to give a feeling for the experience of what it's like playing the game without knowing all the hacks and broken exploits or, really, even just 'the better strategy,' just taking the game as they come and giving the experience of an average person doing it for the first time. While still having the thread as a space from which to learn if I'm doing something so wrong that it's going to ruin the whole experience, which is rare, but not impossible. Most of these games have had decades of how to break them apart to the point that breaking them apart is sort of the assumed default state of play - I think that's particularly true of VIII and something I'm taking pains to avoid in this playthrough.
Article: The THIEF is a fun Class, but certainly not the best of the bunch. If not for the upgrade to NINJA, they would be the worst. They can't steal as a series veteran might expect, nor is their high Luck score useful for much other than running away. They can use mediocre gear, and their Hit Rate only increases at a moderate speed. There's really just not a whole lot to be said for the THIEF until they become a NINJA. At least they get some use out of the otherwise pointless family-related swords. Source: https://guides.gamercorner.net/ff/classes/thief
Article: So, in the Thief we find a below-average attacker throughout the game with at best average defense and HP that can run with a higher success rate than other classes IF you're playing with bug fixes (i.e., NOT on the NES). Compared to the Fighter, this class is inferior in quite literally every possible way.
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Before class change, the Thief is essentially a weaker Red Mage without magic.
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I don't have any particular hatred toward the Thief. Truth is, I feel bad for the poor lil' guy, and wish the class had been designed better and unencumbered by bugs. But the reality is that the Thief the least effective class in the game. Source: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/522595-final-fantasy/51561258
Article: Why settle for a Ninja when you can have someone who "specializes" in melee or magic? The Red Wizard may be be a second-rate Fighter, White Mage and Black Mage rolled into one. But if so, that makes the Ninja a second-rate fighter and a third rate Black Mage rolled into one. Source: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/522595-final-fantasy/51561258?page=1
Being fair to the thief, FFI in particular, compared to a lot of other games in the series, is very much a "exploration and dungeons are a game of slow attrition". There's no mid-dungeon checkpoints, saves, or heals, the spell slot system instead of MP and Ethers means every time you heal you're potentially using up major resources that you might want later for dungeon bosses, and to top it off in the original NES version (but not the Pixel Remaster) FFI had super limited inventory slots. As in, something like 4 to 6 item slots per character, potions don't stack, phoenix downs don't exist, so you had item management on top of everything else.
With that taken into account? Having a character class who's specialty is "tends to go first and is very good at escaping battles" wasn't all that bad of a party option, and Ninja still pulls its own weight. Sure, third-rate black mage compared to Red Wizard, but that's still just enough black magic slots to pop a buff or two and go to town.
Another thing I learned was gameplay-related. A lot of people say FF2 isn't much fun to play, and most people just point to the leveling system as an explanation. You can't get higher-level spells without spamming their low-level versions, you can't get tougher unless you get hit, etc. But this Let's Play has indicated a bunch of other gameplay deficits.
Monster design jumps out at me; there multiple opponents that were just too tough. If you're not low-level enough to get crushed, but also not horribly overleveled, fighting the Adamantortoise or the Red Soul or similar ends up being a slow grindfest. Keep scratching the other guy and healing what damage it manages to inflict. And as Omicron complained about at length, the "boss fights" are all just slightly tougher random encounters. Not even interesting random encounters.
Speaking of random encounters, the dungeon design is kinda baffling. Dungeons are full of these empty dead-end rooms which literally just exist to punish the player with a few random encounters if they walk through the wrong door (with few if any hints which doors are right or wrong). They're just mazes which punish you for going the wrong way, with the occasional treasure chest or event flag or quasi-boss-fight.
The magic problems are also something that I haven't heard about before. At most, people bring it up as an aside before talking about how the best way to grind is to have your party attack itself. And the magic thing is way worse than optimal grinding strats being silly! Even when playing normally, the core combat loop is uninteresting enough that Omicron didn't notice Maria getting swapped because he was just autobattling through everything without any consequence. Magic being so jank saps the depth out of combat, and that issue compounds over time as the player continues to not cast worthless spells which become more worthless every time you move to a new area with stronger enemies.
But all I hear about is vague stuff about bad progression system and specific mockery of how you can level HP. Which is a shame, because the flaws that don't get mentioned are interesting! Hearing more about FF2's level systems than "learning by doing is bad game design" (obviously untrue, systems fitting that broad umbrella work in other games) helps explain what's bad about the systems in this game and lets you think about ways it might have been done better.
I have a soft spot for FFII because one of the earliest Final Fantasy games I really have distinct memories of, beyond "playing FFVIII until mom takes it away for swears" was getting Dawn of Souls for the GBA and playing the heck out of FFI and FFII both. As a kid with nigh-infinite time? Grinding out all those weapon and magic levels to make absolutely ridiculous characters was pretty cool!
But yes, in retrospect even those later versions of the game with some extra QoL improvements (the NES version didn't only have stats going up through use, but also stats going down through opposites used, like mages getting +Magic but -Strength) still are filled to the brim with design issues. Spells take so long to grind and often show up so late at level 1 that you'll probably just slap the very basics on some characters early on and exclusively use those, status magic is either completely worthless or ridiculously overpowered against enemies, and even as a kid I got frustrated with the dungeon design devolving to some Mario Maker Pick-a-Path tier nonsense.
With that taken into account? Having a character class who's specialty is "tends to go first and is very good at escaping battles" wasn't all that bad of a party option, and Ninja still pulls its own weight. Sure, third-rate black mage compared to Red Wizard, but that's still just enough black magic slots to pop a buff or two and go to town.
According to my research, thieves aren't actually that good at that?
With regard to escaping battles, the thief really isn't that much of an improvement. Part of the problem is that FF1 was programmed on duct tape and even the least lucky classes have an 80% chance of running away by level 15. But, to quote AstralEsper (author of what I quoted from the gamefaqs forums):
Article:
A reliable run-button is definitely a huge convenience. But really, how high a chance is needed? If you figure everyone in the party has at least a ~50% chance of running, then you have at least a 93.75% chance of escaping in one round, assuming everyone gets their turn. True, having someone with a ~95% chance will often get you away faster, which helps, but it's hardly critical in most situations. And your party is much less likely to desperately need to escape from any encounter quickly if you replace the Thief with a more useful class.
For reference: Without the runaway bug, even at max level, most classes only have ~50% run chance when everything works as intended. But everyone's over 40% by 10th level, and if everyone has a 40% chance of successfully running, that's still an 87% chance of someone successfully running. Three normal classes and a thief have a 99% chance, but is that 5-12% chance worth weakening your party enough that you need to run more often?
I don't know what to say about "tends to go first," because none of the thief defenders in that thread mentioned anything about it. (At least not in the first 12 pages, but the conversation had turned from FF1 classes to what people call soda, so I didn't bother to check the rest.)
And as for anything revolving around the ninja's black magic...one point that came up pretty frequently is that thieves only get to be ninjas near the end of the game. At best, for half of it. So any defense that focuses on things that only come up for the Ninja is, in my opinion, lackluster.
For reference: Without the runaway bug, even at max level, most classes only have ~50% run chance when everything works as intended. But everyone's over 40% by 10th level, and if everyone has a 40% chance of successfully running, that's still an 87% chance of someone successfully running. Three normal classes and a thief have a 99% chance, but is that 5-12% chance worth weakening your party enough that you need to run more often?
You've probably seen Omi enter various emergencies where he had to beat it back to town to heal and resupply. When you're mid-crisis, do you want a 7-in-8 or 8-in-8 of successfully escaping any one given fight to reach safety? Especially given you're likely to face multiple random encounters on the way back and you're likely to have multiple such situations. Sure, if you don't have to run as often that helps but unless you're really good at FFI and you have perfect information (more common nowadays, granted) you're still running into enough trouble that a character who can guarantee your peace of mind has a niche. To sum up, is thief good? Not really. Does it pull its own weight? For a lot of players, yes.
Oh yeah overall despite my attempt to defend it, Thief is probably still the worst class in FFI. I was just trying to dig up whatever positives that do exist, even if yes something like a Red Mage is likely a better choice overall.
And having played the Etrian Odyssey series... while I can't comment on if Thief is that much better at running, I can say having a consistent, early in the turn run option is very, very appreciated in a party RPG and can easily be the difference between "we make it back to town beaten and battered" and "dang, next party that comes down this hallway is gonna get some sweet loot off our corpses".
Do they, though? Do they really? In my experience, at least, games like that always create some bullshit incentives like walking everywhere in stealth or facing a wall and running while you have a lunch break or whatever. You can play normally, and for some games it does work, but there is always this nagging thought that you could do better, could be more optimal, more powerful. Which exists also in games that allow grind, but at least there you're still engaging with the core game systems in an intended fashion.
All in all, I think games divorcing progress from doing things and tying it level ups or exp gain are cleaner, as a whole, less likely to break into an unfun mess.
Though, on topic of grinding, I do think that VtM:B approach of only awarding you exp for quests, not for killing enemies, is good and more games should do it as it encourages engaging with the world and searching for alternate solutions to problems other than violence.
Most of these games have had decades of how to break them apart to the point that breaking them apart is sort of the assumed default state of play - I think that's particularly true of VIII and something I'm taking pains to avoid in this playthrough.
TBF, given the sheer number of ways to break the game, the experience of an average player engaging with the game on their own for the first time does include finding an exploit or two and jumping on them.
Do they, though? Do they really? In my experience, at least, games like that always create some bullshit incentives like walking everywhere in stealth or facing a wall and running while you have a lunch break or whatever. You can play normally, and for some games it does work, but there is always this nagging thought that you could do better, could be more optimal, more powerful. Which exists also in games that allow grind, but at least there you're still engaging with the core game systems in an intended fashion.
You're making a lot of assumptions. You're assuming "learning by doing" is a more specific description than it is, you're assuming the existence of a "normal way to play" that is preferable, you're assuming that grinding in a leveling-by-doing system cannot be meaningfully "engaging with the core game systems" even though by definition you are grinding skills by using the relevant mechanics.
People keep mentioning Runescape, but I'd like to point to the Elder Scrolls games as a second example. From what I hear, that series has had times when its skills don't really work, but it also has entries where it does work, or at least doesn't cause problems. Skyrim, for example. Famous game, popular for well over a decade, you level skills by doing them. You level Block by blocking attacks, Destruction by causing damage with spells, Light Armor by taking damage in light armor, etc. There are some unintended side effects, but that's pretty much inevitable with any game that has enough systems a player can mess with. Game designers can't prevent "bullshit incentives" without heavily restricting player choice.
The question asked by the Elder Scrolls devs isn't "How do we avoid giving players bullshit incentives?", it's "How can we make sure players have fun whether or not they follow the bullshit incentives?" Whether it's your cup of tea or not, Skyrim works for a lot of players, because its progression system was designed better than FF2's despite theoretically working on the same principles. It's a bunch of little things, like how you level up Destruction magic by casting any damaging spell, instead of leveling up individual spells by casting that one spell, or having fewer weapon skills; these small improvements make the play experience radically different. (Also the boss/dungeon/etc designs.)
Or look at the TRPG space. Many TRPGs have skill advancement tied to skill use, including Call of Cthulhu, noted earlier in the thread for being incredibly popular in Japan. Again, it works there thanks to a bunch of small design decisions, ranging from "skills useful in dangerous situations are hard to level in safe situations" to "another 15% in Shooting won't help you against a bulletproof shoggoth". There are a lot of ways to make games work, and most of them are compatible with some form of leveling by doing.
People keep mentioning Runescape, but I'd like to point to the Elder Scrolls games as a second example. From what I hear, that series has had times when its skills don't really work, but it also has entries where it does work, or at least doesn't cause problems. Skyrim, for example. Famous game, popular for well over a decade, you level skills by doing them. You level Block by blocking attacks, Destruction by causing damage with spells, Light Armor by taking damage in light armor, etc. There are some unintended side effects, but that's pretty much inevitable with any game that has enough systems a player can mess with. Game designers can't prevent "bullshit incentives" without heavily restricting player choice.
I mean, I did think about TES when I wrote my post (Morrowing and Oblivion more than Skyrim, though), and, well, it does have some serious issues with the system implementation, not least of which is tying stat progression to skill progression in such a way that leveling your skills non-optimally means you're going to be weaker than you could be forever.
I do think TES would've worked better with a more straightforward "rise skills on level-up" system.
TTRPGs do work fine with a system like that, yeah. In large part because of the social contract within the group: you're playing with real people who've all gathered to have fun and tell a collaborative story, so a lot of rough edges and potentially problematic design could be smoothed over with "OK, we're here to investigate the murder of Comte de Saint-Germain, so that's what we're doing now, not training".
Mostly, you want to limit the number of times a skill can be leveled per session since certain skills would naturally be used more frequently (in a fight, you're probably going to shoot a dozen times. If you're trying to deceive someone, that's probably just one roll).
