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Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Finished: Final Fantasy Tactics]

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Oh boy, I've been wondering when Tactics was going to show up in this thread, that's one I'm looking forward to. I was mostly wondering if it was going to be our first of the Ivalice games, since those are fun to talk about in relation to each other. Tactics is a good starting point though.

Though given you've played XIV, there's some connections that will probably be brought up from there.

Omicron said:
Just trying to picture Marche Discourse happening in my thread... It is enough to make a man tremble
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We do not speak of Marche Discourse, that way lies true madness. Especially because I know I couldn't help myself if it started in earnest.

Instead, let's go for a much safer and less contentious topic: Translation Discourse! Omi, do you think you'll play with the PS1 original translations or the War of the Lions remaster?
 
The original might have it's charms, but given the numerous actually-just-flat-out-errors (non-spoiler examples Mindflare instead of Mindflayer, Rich instead of Lich, Fire/Stop Bracelet instead of Fire/Stop Breath, "X's Elder Brother" instead of just "X" etc) I'd hope/presume not that one.
 
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Tirfarthuan said:
So. Trains.

Putting my rudimentary literary analysis hat on, the train in 6 is about death. It's a ghost train, a psychopomp full of the dead, and it very much takes its passengers on a one way trip to the end of the line. It's an enemy because the party wants to get off. (Its maybe a little half baked because Cyan is and that story beat is mostly his.)

And of course, it is a industrial era spectre of death, representative of the weapons of the empire and the tools that slaughtered Cyan's home.

In the broader series, at least up to this point, it's the first vehicle that's truly out of the player's control. FF4 had some cutscene vehicles, but you got to actually control versions of them elsewhere. A train is different. It can only take you on the tracks, and no driver can change that - and the party certainly doesn't get to drive. They can only get on or off, and maybe try to make it stop.

In FF7, the trains are no longer supernatural. People ride them to work under Midgar, or Shinra uses them to move their exploited goods around Corel, where the minecart tracks are broken and the party can only (hopefully) stop Shinra from running over North Corel.

There's no magic to the trains. But they are a metaphor. For the Planet - everyone is in this together, on the same ride. Some people might think they're on top of the world, some might think it's fine to run people over, and some might worry about the cost of running the train. Some want to make the train stop... or crash.

But at the end of the day, the rails can't be rebuilt while the train is running. There's going to be pain, an end of the line for good or bad, and you just have to deal with the tracks everyone built and try to come to a safe stop together.

But what about FF8?

It's already pretty clear that the train - which the party finds cool and fancy and great - is not under their control. They didnt buy tickets or choose their destination. Just like the whole Garden and mercenaries deal, everything except their moment to moment combat decisions is in the hands of others. Unless I missed them being told what their actual job is this time or who exactly they are working for, they have some major questions they are not supposed to ask. And they aren't.

But the question on top of that is, well, is the train magic?

They went to sleep in the fancy train car and found themselves dreaming of being other people. Of being adults with friendships inside and outside of work, with romance, with a stable job in one nation rather than the mercenary globetrotting. And it's a shared dream?

What prompted this NOW? Is it the train? Is it the party sleeping in one room post Ifrit acquisition? Is it the magic lamp? Heck, is it Selphie, transfer student who actually spoke about the dream that she is? No clue. Given past games, it could just be the train! Maybe those three are haunting that cabin on their train ride to the afterlife.
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Look


All I know is


there ain't no gettin' offa this train we're on
 
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So uh just now looking at the threadmarks and there's two part 5's. Didn't see anyone else mention it so I thought I should point it out.
 
So far, FFVIII's translation is much better than FFVII's, in terms of "does it make sense with what the Japanese script says", and with the caveat that I only have access to the main story dialogue, and even then not all of it.

But I have very few complaints so far. At most, it's just "the nuance", which is the sort of thing translators and localizers can argue about all day, so my own interpretations are not any more correct than what the English script has. There's none of the clearly wrong mistranslations in FFVII, so that minimum standard has (so far) been met. I can't comment on how well it flows as English dialogue, but that probably requires several more games to evolve until we get FFXIV's localization team putting in Simpsons references.

Egleris said:
- Laguna's dream and conversation proceeds mostly along the same lines as in the English version as well. There's tiny differences here and there; for example, when Laguna says he's nervous around Julia, she answers "don't be, or I'll feel guilty", which is a bit less soothing than her "you don't need to be nervous around me" from the English version, and more centered on how Julia herself would feel, but does flow better with Laguna's answer being "I'm sorry" in both languages. A few other minor changes are present, such as "I won't eat your eyes", which I think everybody can agree is a strange expression in English, is replaced with the Italian equivalent of "I don't bite", which makes more sense and also makes me suspect that we're dealing with another issue translating idiomatic Japanese - maybe @Adloquium could weigh in on that?
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When Julia tells Laguna to relax, she says "relax" in English, then "if people are nervous because of me, that's troubling (to me)". It's a bit of a friendly teasing comment, which matches her using "relax" in English. So I can see it both ways.

The "I won't eat your eyes" bit is slightly complicated to work out. One common way of writing in Japanese, in a sort of "only in writing fiction can this sort of phrasing happen", is to focus on one part of some object or person, and talk about that one specific part as having its own personality and actions, as a way to imply the same commentary on the greater whole.

A possible English equivalent would be stuff like "your lying tongue", rather than "you liar". (In Japanese, it would be "this lying mouth" or "this mouth that speaks lies"; same idea, different body part.) But it's almost never done in normal conversation. Only when writing fiction, or some similar activity where flowery language is appropriate (eg romantic proposals), does it happen, to varying degrees of competency.

(It's the sort of "Japanese people are indirect in literature" thing that led to Natsume Souseki famously talking about "the moon is beautiful" as a way of saying "I love you". As in, many Japanese people are often surprised that this is allegedly the case according to literature writers, but it's poetic and moving, so it's accepted as Just How Things Are In Literature.)

So here, Julia is suddenly focusing on Laguna's eyes, and praising them and talking about how those eyes are always there to watch her when she performs, and it sounds really weird if translated literally. The reader should know that Julia is talking about Laguna himself, rather than just Laguna's eyes. And so Julia going "I'm not going to eat your eyes" is again her being playful: she starts with "those eyes (of yours) are looking quite scared", then follows through the joke with "I'm not going to eat them, so don't worry".

It's one of those cases where the translation has to decide on whether to translate literally, as the English version does, or come up with something that has little to do with the original text, but has the same general idea; "I don't bite" is a pretty smart way to do it. The danger is, as always, if the Japanese script later has all sorts of callbacks and references to eyes and how they see things, which would mean leaving out the eye talk would miss out on those callbacks. It's always a gamble, especially with the non-linear scripts of video games.

Egleris said:
Also, Squall's one comment in the dream when Laguna mentions his journalistic aspiration is way more scathing in Italian, along the lines of "he's puffing himself up", which implies Squall doesn't believe Laguna's claims. Which goes to show how little he understands Laguna - since Squall would never share his dreams or passions, he can't conceive of somebody sharing them so freely, and thinks he's lying when he's being so obviously and painfully honest it's a feat. This continues the trend of this localization pushing harder on the button of Squall lying to himself, which I noticed started from the very first line of dialogue Squall had in the game. I'm starting to suspect this was a factor in my more positive reception of FFVIII than average, but that's an argument that is probably best left for much later in the game.
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Yeah, the line there is "うそだろ、もう、なじんでるぜ", which is roughly "you're kidding me, he's already used to it". So "he's already loosened up" in the English translation is fine, if missing the incredulity.

I can see how the Italian translator might have thought Squall was accusing Laguna of lying: the "you're kidding me" part is literally "this is a lie". So if you're reading Squall's line particularly uncharitably, it's possible for the interpretation to be "that's a lie, and he's used to (doing) it". Again, the lack of subject-object in Japanese grammar is the cause of the confusion.

However, I'm leaning against that uncharitable interpretation for two reasons. First, it's slightly awkward grammar for a statement accusing Laguna of lying. The immediate natural read is the one the English translation goes with, where "this is a lie" is interpreted as a rhetorical "you're kidding me".

Second, I have to ask Omicron or anyone else playing through this scene: is there any explicit dialogue box label saying this line is Squall's? Because the line ends with ぜ ("ze"), which is a sentence ending that is used generally only by Zell. As in, I don't think Squall has used "ze" as a sentence ending at all so far; it's a rough, casual, "just me and the boys" type of sentence ending, which would be very uncharacteristic of Squall. Zell doesn't use "ze" all the time, and occasionally others use it (eg Seifer, when claiming Squad B was bringing him down after the Dollet mission), but at a glance, if the sentence ends with "ze", it's Zell.

I can see the implicit idea that Squall is the one commentating because Squall's consciousness is "linked" to Laguna's, and here only Laguna and Julia are present. But if it's instead supposed to be all three of the new SeeDs watching Laguna's antics all the way, then I would confidently assume the speaker/thinker is Zell.

Egleris said:
Julia is the second name change in a cast member (after Xu -> Shu), in this case going from Julia to Giulia.
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Something I forgot to mention earlier: translating Xu's name as "Shu" is also entirely understandable. The Japanese transliteration of her name is actually "Shuu" (シュウ), in katakana. I assume the English translation took into account the katakana (thus implying a non-Japanese word) and how "Shu"/"Shuu" is commonly a given name for men, and changed it to "Xu" for a vaguely Chinese origin.

But if a translator wanted to leave it as "Shu", I wouldn't have any complaints either. It's also quite correct.
 
Adloquium said:
The danger is, as always, if the Japanese script later has all sorts of callbacks and references to eyes and how they see things, which would mean leaving out the eye talk would miss out on those callbacks. It's always a gamble, especially with the non-linear scripts of video games.
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Even without spoiling anything, I don't think there can be any doubts about that - we've already been told that the event in which monsters fall from the moon is called "Lunar Cry", which is very much an eye-related reference.

I guess we'll need to keep an eye out (eh) for eye references in the script going forwards, especially ones thematically tied to Julia or Laguna.
 
Also something I completely forgot about until reviewing the Japanese script:

Omicron said:
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For extra trivia, in Japanese, Laguna's thoughts here have no punctuation. He's rapid-fire spamming his thoughts in sheer panic, leading to (likely) Squall to go "This guy... is he not thinking anything at all?"

Also Laguna's last bit of thought here isn't "She's pretty", but "She's pretty and she smells nice". Just to pile on more demerits on the manliness scale.
 
Adloquium said:
Also something I completely forgot about until reviewing the Japanese script:



For extra trivia, in Japanese, Laguna's thoughts here have no punctuation. He's rapid-fire spamming his thoughts in sheer panic, leading to (likely) Squall to go "This guy... is he not thinking anything at all?"

Also Laguna's last bit of thought here isn't "She's pretty", but "She's pretty and she smells nice". Just to pile on more demerits on the manliness scale.
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Laguna is clearly a sigma. Beyond the normal hierarchy. A true man.
 
As someone who pretty much doesn't have a sense of smell, can't relate.

StormyEyed said:
Instead, let's go for a much safer and less contentious topic: Translation Discourse! Omi, do you think you'll play with the PS1 original translations or the War of the Lions remaster?
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Good question! It's come up in the gap between VII and VIII and the answer is: "I am seriously hoping that between now and the end of VIII Squeenix announces a FFT Remaster."

Failing that, proooobably the War of the Lions remaster? People have talked a bunch about the difference between the two translations but I have no personal experience of the games whatsoever to base my own judgement on, so I'm probably going to lean in the direction of the one that's more factually accurate to the original script, even if it has other issues of its own.

Adloquium said:
Second, I have to ask Omicron or anyone else playing through this scene: is there any explicit dialogue box label saying this line is Squall's? Because the line ends with ぜ ("ze"), which is a sentence ending that is used generally only by Zell. As in, I don't think Squall has used "ze" as a sentence ending at all so far; it's a rough, casual, "just me and the boys" type of sentence ending, which would be very uncharacteristic of Squall. Zell doesn't use "ze" all the time, and occasionally others use it (eg Seifer, when claiming Squad B was bringing him down after the Dollet mission), but at a glance, if the sentence ends with "ze", it's Zell.

I can see the implicit idea that Squall is the one commentating because Squall's consciousness is "linked" to Laguna's, and here only Laguna and Julia are present. But if it's instead supposed to be all three of the new SeeDs watching Laguna's antics all the way, then I would confidently assume the speaker/thinker is Zell.
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A very good point! The answer is no, there is no explicit indication of who is talking over the line "(He's already loosened up...)" It's entirely possible it's Zell and the whole peanut gallery is hanging out watching Laguna be awkward with his crush.

Terrifying to imagine, frankly.
 
Broken25 said:
The remaster lacks the random spell incantations, thus making it strictly inferior regardless of anything else.
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A valid point, but I raise you taking the remastsred translation and modding the spell callouts back in. We need not allow technology to limit us.

Omicron said:
Failing that, proooobably the War of the Lions remaster? People have talked a bunch about the difference between the two translations but I have no personal experience of the games whatsoever to base my own judgement on, so I'm probably going to lean in the direction of the one that's more factually accurate to the original script, even if it has other issues of its own.
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That's definitely the one I prefer, and what I would suggest using. While it might lose out on a bit of the charm the original translation had, it's a much more accurate anf cohesive script with WotL, and it feels much more in line with the style of Matsuno's later works. I'd consider modding in a fix for the spell slowdown the PSP version had (and maybe ability callouts if you really want), but beyond that it should be pretty solid.

Now of course getting a remaster would be the best possible news, but probably best not to plan for that happening.
 
As the one who's been very insistent that using the original 1997 version with the LFT mod added to it is the actually best way to play Final Fantasy Tactics even if it's very slightly less true to the original (in that it cuts down the grinding by two thirds and makes all the classes worth playing instead of less than half), I'd be remiss if I didn't mention (again) that the LFT mod has two versions, one with the OG translation and one with the WOTL translation. I know that @Omicron is going to play the unmodded version instead, for fidelity and to comment on the game as most people know it, but as I know for a fact that'll reduce his enjoyment of FFT, I need to keep campaigning against that.

Also, worth pointing out, the PSX version can be used with an emulator, whereas I'm not sure that's true for the WOTL version, and if there ever was a game where having the ability to jump between save-states was a godsend, FFT would be it. Just food for thoughts.
 
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Omicron said:
Terrifying to imagine, frankly.
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Ah, I see we've moved from FFVII forays into body horror to psychological horror instead.

Can you fucking imagine bumbling your way through awkward but heartfelt confession to your crush while three disembodied teenagers watch you and also read your thoughts and comment on everything. And also one of them may or may not be your future son who thinks you're lame.
 
Egleris said:
Also, worth pointing out, the PSX version can be used with an emulator, whereas I'm not sure that's true for the WOTL version, and if there ever was a game where having the ability to jump between save-states was ever a godsend, FFT would be it. Just food for thoughts.
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You can emulate WotL just fine on a PSP emulator, PPSSPP works great. Can get save states and mods with that no problem. Though I understand it Omi wants to minimize mod use to get a more true to form impression.

And I think one other thing worth mentioning is WotL having a translation much more consistent with Matsuno's other work (FFXII, the Save the Queen storyline in FFXIV, and so on) might be good when it comes time to talk about the game in comparison to other Ivalice works. Plus the general higher accuracy of the translation might help with some otherwise frustrating moments.

Either way, whatever version he winds up playing, I think it's safe to say we can count on at least one person following along with script comparisons to other versions.
 
If the War of the Lions version of Final fantasy Tactics is used then I highly recommend
for Omicron to look up the patch that removes the slowdown from skills/spells.

That slowdown was deliberately placed into the PSP version because its UMD drive couldn't load the animations
(something to do with lighting effects from what I've read) quickly enough which in turn caused problems/crashes.

Emulators on modern pc's shouldn't have these problems and patching the game
makes using magic useful instead of a time reducing bore to watch.
 
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