Hojo, having duct-taped Jenova Cells to the nearest random object he could find: "Ah, my finest creation."So personally I think that Hojo didn't even communicate with Sephiroth, he's just a weirdo who sees people who he experiments on as things he creates
Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Finished: Final Fantasy Tactics]
- Thread starter Omicron
- Start date
- Let's Play
- Location
- NC
To be fair, Sephiroth was undergoing a breakdown following like three days of no sleep. I think it's understandable that he's a little off his game.
Kuja
I'M A SQUIIIID
- Location
- AZ
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Sephiroth: RIP to you but I'm built different.
Sephiroth: sips from a WWE commemorative mug labeled "Hell in a Cell '97"
(Yes the Hell in a Cell event debuted the same year FF7 released thus making this pun hysterically appropriate)
Guile
Having a really great time right now
So you're saying that memories of the event in question are... confused?
Look how close they are in this shot! Let me just roll out my corkboard and
Another thing - let's check back the original flashback, so many updates ago:
interesting.
ZerbanDaGreat
Daemon Noble of D E M O G R A P H I C S
- Pronouns
- They/them
What're you talking about? Cloud used a Limit Break.Yet still, Cloud decides to try. He pursues Sephiroth onto the bridge leading to the reactor, where he calls out to him; Sephiroth pauses in his stride, and as Cloud throws himself at him…
….Sephiroth impales him on Masamune, then lifts him bodily in the air on his sword.
"Don't push it" seems to suggest that, even in the midst of his psychotic break and after getting stabbed with the Buster Sword, Sephiroth had first made a deliberate choice not to kill Cloud while escaping the Reactor. I think he may have been genuinely fond of him.
But then, against all odds… Cloud grabs the blade in his hands, pushes himself down until his feet are on the ground, and then lifts Sephiroth in the air, while still impaled on the sword. In true anime fashion, Sephiroth shouts "It can't be!" even as it, indeed, is.
A moment of impossible resolve (which I'm pretty sure doesn't work mechanically, as a Cloud suspended in the air would lack any means of pushing himself down to the ground, the leverage doesn't exist, but we'll ignore that), following which Cloud manages to hurl Sephiroth down into the Lifestream.
Tifa's father's body is notably absent from this scene even though he should still be there, but I am making an executive decision to believe that's just a presentation choice to cut down on visual clutter rather than spiral into more Theory Hour based on this singular fact.
…
Check your "obligatory Star Wars reference" boxes, people.
Is that why Sephiroth enjoys fucking with Cloud so much? Why he's made it his life's mission to ruin Cloud's?
Because Cloud is in fact the one who killed him?
Which Cloud didn't even remember doing.
Incredible.
I'm not sure what I think of this bit. It's emotionally compelling but it also has some serious Resurrection of F 'Goku gets killed in one laser pistol shot to the back because he wasn't paying attention' energy. Sephiroth is simultaneously the ultimate super-soldier capable of wiping out a town single-handedly but also an ordinary human teenager can kill him by having a surge of shounen resolve. I don't know.
... no, seriously. In Last Order and Crisis Core you can see mako flares in Cloud's eyes as he grabs the Masamune and plays his Uno reverse card. He's so fucking pissed at Sephiroth and so past the end of his rope that he's able to summon up literal, magical superpowers in order to toss him into the wall and send him GMOD ragdolling down into the depths of Tartarus.
And this is why I adore FF7's twist. The irony that all along, after so much insecurity and doubt, after Cloud and Tifa both agree that there's no way Cloud could've actually killed Sephiroth all by himself... he actually did. That weak teenager who felt he'd fallen so short of the bar he'd set for himself, who thought he'd failed everyone he knew and loved, really had found his strength at just the right moment to completely topple the man who flossed on Zack like a dentist in a straight fight.
And Sephiroth has been in a permanent state of sophisticated malding about it for five years straight.
This is why I reject the notion that Sephiroth being behind the wheel is a 'retcon' - it's simply too perfect for Shinra's golden boy, Homelander With A Katana, to be so fucking pressed about going 0-2 with a Stormtrooper that he was able to achieve reverse Nirvana and forcibly rematerialise his soul and body against the full force of the Lifestream's flow alone.
The way I see it, Aerith isn't really Cloud's love interest. Maybe in another life she could've been, but circumstances have conspired to make that impossible - because she doesn't know him, she knows how he's trying to emulate the man she did love. She tried to find the real Cloud, she said as much in her Golden Saucer date, but it's hard to say if she really could've done what Tifa did in that regard even with the opportunity. But you're right that it's also just one more thing her death very deliberately cuts short.
It's fairly safe to bet that Cloud slamming Sephiroth into the wall like he was swinging a possum by the tail is 'canon', as that specifically was reprodced in Crisis Core making Last Order the outlier (and I believe Last Order is stated to be 'what the Turks think happened'). Crisis Core otherwise adding Zack getting his licks in I can go either way on, because in many ways it's because Crisis Core is its own game and Zack is its hero and they knew it'd be insane to just Not Have Him Fight Sephiroth In A Boss Battle.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
Local woman gets into rebound relationship with area man who is at least half the ghost of her old boyfriend
GilliamYaeger
M'crazy.
MiskWisk
Hoot
- Location
- Somewhere devoid of wit
- Pronouns
- He
So... there is a bit that might explain this. It's not in the game though, but rather in the novella Hoshi o Meguri Otome, or The Maiden who Travels the Planet. It was never officially translated into English, and it's not even really canon considering it is left out of the compilations and various bits of the compilation contradict it in a few ways.
However, it does have a few mechanical bits that get reused. I can't recommend you read it until after you beat the game, since it does have spoilers, but one bit of the mechanics of the setting it introduced is (and I'll spoiler this though it won't have any actual plot details):
It could be the souls of those who died in the reactor bombings.
How did you manage to find a cursed version of a digital copy?
Yeah... best you can manage is to develop enough self awareness to recognise and adjust your behaviour later in life. And even then it's a struggle not to fall back into the mindset.
God damn it, this made my brain go straight to trying to figure out the mechanics of making Mt Nibel into Mt Ebott for an Undertale crossover.
And this is why we've been so excited for you to reach this bit.
So, to bring up something I mentioned earlier, remember those Rebirth bits that show Sephiroth and Cloud's interactions?
Those are Sephiroth and Zack's interactions. Cloud was having to watch from the sidelines as those two exchanged homoerotic banter and post psychological break inserted himself into it.
My headcanon was that he hooked his feet into the railings and Sephiroth, in his wounded state, wasn't able to stop Cloud pulling himself back down.
- Location
- Texas
It works if it wasn't a "push" but a "pull." As in, Cloud pulling himself down the sword until his feet touched the ground, and then wedging the blade between two of his vertebrae to lever Sephiroth up and over the edge. Physics!
Tifa probably qualifies as a SOLDIER now doesn't she? Presumably 2nd Class since 1st likely involved Jenova Cells. Sadly doubt we see anything brought up about that angle though.
Though that does beg the question, has this happened before? I emphatically reject the idea that Hojo has an original bone in his body (metaphorically, though physically isn't out of the question either), so I like the idea that the Ancients had a ritual that their champions underwent, a lifestream baptism to become even greater warriors. Hojo found out about it, and copy pasted the concept into SOLDIER. Then, when JENOVA was discovered, he decided to toss that in too. The real reason he wanted Aerith was to discover which now-extinct strain of Chocobo Greens the Ancients used to smoke in their rituals, so he could recreate it and add it to the mix as well. Because if you already are producing psychotic supersoldiers, making them trip balls in hopes of obtaining otherworldly wisdom is the obvious next step.
Egleris
Vagrant Dragon
- Location
- Italy
@Omicron: as others have said, going back to Nibelheim now that Cloud has his true memories back to explore it as thoroughly as you did when you collected Vincent will provide a new block of completely optional, highly important lore. I think some people might argue this is more crucial than the Icicle Inn, although I personally don't think so. Still, of the optional lore in the game, it's certainly in the top two spots. (There's more than two optional lore-dumps in the game; Gongaga was also one, and there's at least one more you'll need to do a lot of exploring to actually find).
That said, I think that the writers of the compilation just fell for the very same "invincible Sephiroth" propaganda that Cloud fell for in-game, for Sephiroth's "mystique". Thus, they felt that him being taken down by Cloud was not properly fitting such a great individual, and tried to rewrite it so he came across less humiliatingly stupid in the scene. Whereas in the game itself, this is the point where Sephiroth's image of being this invincible badass is shattered, and he's revealed to be arrogant and, in hindsight, incredibly petty.
The whole point of this sequence having Cloud kill Sephiroth, instead of something else happening (such as Zack doing the job, for example) is that Sephiroth thinks himself the chosen one, above the common man. As a direct result of this arrogance, he left himself open to be taken down by somebody who he'd not merely dismissed, but also made as angry and determined to hurt him as somebody can be, by killing his hometown, his only family, as well as wounding (possibly lethally, for all Cloud knew!) the girl he loved and his best friend. Sephiroth didn't have to do any of that; he could have made his way to Jenova in secret, used his connection to the clones to build himself an army over time, and if he had to kill the mortals, do it in a way that left no survivors. He didn't do that, because he arrogantly thought they didn't matter. He was wrong.
And then, after he was stabbed, and could have slunk away to lick his wounds and recover, instead he came out to confront the one who had insulted him so, secure in his arrogance that he'd only been hurt because it was a backstab that took him by surprise. Instead, his strength fails him because he wasted time gloating (that's how I chose to read the "Cloud leveraged himself to the ground", as Cloud's grip on the Masamune and wiggling on top of it changing the balance point enough that Sephiroth's wounded strength wasn't enough to keep him suspended), and gave the person who had all that anger motivating him the time for the one burst of strength needed for him to be thrown in the Lifestream.
Plus, in addition to completely removing all the coolness Sephiroth has been cloaked with the whole story, this also makes the point that it didn't take a super-soldier enhanced with Mako or Jenova or whatever to defeat Sephiroth; it just took somebody who had been wronged enough to not hesitate to strike when the opportunity for payback presented itself, and who had been wronged enough to push himself to perform past human limits just one time. This is important, too, because it makes it clear that it's not Hojo's experiments that made Cloud Sephiroth's match, it was just that he cared enough about the people Sephiroth was hurting to do the impossible for them. That matters to the themes of the story a whole lot.
Obviously, I deeply dislike that the writers have been trying to retcon this away in the following adaptations of the story, both because it completely misses the point of the scene, and because it takes away what is one of Cloud's most important and unambiguous moments of awesome. It's Sephiroth's hype managing to overwhelm the story, because writers got caught up in how cool he was that they weren't able to stomach leaving intact the scene where it's proven, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that he's really not. So they rage about it by rewriting it.
Just like Sephiroth himself does when he speaks to Cloud. I think there's a lesson to take in that, but this is pretentious enough as it is, so I'll stop here. I'll just reiterate that I think the writer are rewriting the story on purpose, because they either don't get it, or don't want to get it. Everybody can make their own judgment over that.
Now, I will preface this by saying this is my personal theory, and so nobody is forced to agree with it. It's just opinion and nothing more.
That said, I think that the writers of the compilation just fell for the very same "invincible Sephiroth" propaganda that Cloud fell for in-game, for Sephiroth's "mystique". Thus, they felt that him being taken down by Cloud was not properly fitting such a great individual, and tried to rewrite it so he came across less humiliatingly stupid in the scene. Whereas in the game itself, this is the point where Sephiroth's image of being this invincible badass is shattered, and he's revealed to be arrogant and, in hindsight, incredibly petty.
The whole point of this sequence having Cloud kill Sephiroth, instead of something else happening (such as Zack doing the job, for example) is that Sephiroth thinks himself the chosen one, above the common man. As a direct result of this arrogance, he left himself open to be taken down by somebody who he'd not merely dismissed, but also made as angry and determined to hurt him as somebody can be, by killing his hometown, his only family, as well as wounding (possibly lethally, for all Cloud knew!) the girl he loved and his best friend. Sephiroth didn't have to do any of that; he could have made his way to Jenova in secret, used his connection to the clones to build himself an army over time, and if he had to kill the mortals, do it in a way that left no survivors. He didn't do that, because he arrogantly thought they didn't matter. He was wrong.
And then, after he was stabbed, and could have slunk away to lick his wounds and recover, instead he came out to confront the one who had insulted him so, secure in his arrogance that he'd only been hurt because it was a backstab that took him by surprise. Instead, his strength fails him because he wasted time gloating (that's how I chose to read the "Cloud leveraged himself to the ground", as Cloud's grip on the Masamune and wiggling on top of it changing the balance point enough that Sephiroth's wounded strength wasn't enough to keep him suspended), and gave the person who had all that anger motivating him the time for the one burst of strength needed for him to be thrown in the Lifestream.
Plus, in addition to completely removing all the coolness Sephiroth has been cloaked with the whole story, this also makes the point that it didn't take a super-soldier enhanced with Mako or Jenova or whatever to defeat Sephiroth; it just took somebody who had been wronged enough to not hesitate to strike when the opportunity for payback presented itself, and who had been wronged enough to push himself to perform past human limits just one time. This is important, too, because it makes it clear that it's not Hojo's experiments that made Cloud Sephiroth's match, it was just that he cared enough about the people Sephiroth was hurting to do the impossible for them. That matters to the themes of the story a whole lot.
Obviously, I deeply dislike that the writers have been trying to retcon this away in the following adaptations of the story, both because it completely misses the point of the scene, and because it takes away what is one of Cloud's most important and unambiguous moments of awesome. It's Sephiroth's hype managing to overwhelm the story, because writers got caught up in how cool he was that they weren't able to stomach leaving intact the scene where it's proven, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that he's really not. So they rage about it by rewriting it.
Just like Sephiroth himself does when he speaks to Cloud. I think there's a lesson to take in that, but this is pretentious enough as it is, so I'll stop here. I'll just reiterate that I think the writer are rewriting the story on purpose, because they either don't get it, or don't want to get it. Everybody can make their own judgment over that.
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MiskWisk
Hoot
- Location
- Somewhere devoid of wit
- Pronouns
- He
Two actually. The first is there, the second is:
In Tifa's piano, which you must unlock by playing the main theme of FF7 on the piano. Hope you've got an ear for music!
And here's the solution if you aren't actually Mozart.
And here's the solution if you aren't actually Mozart.
[CANCEL], [SWITCH], [MENU], [PAGEUP] and [MENU], [PAGEUP] and [SWITCH], [CANCEL], [SWITCH], [MENU], [PAGEUP] and [CANCEL], [OK], [CANCEL], [SWITCH], [CANCEL]
Unfortunately it looks like this because of PC stuff
Unfortunately it looks like this because of PC stuff
- Location
- Singapore
- Pronouns
- Singular They
Tangentially, this is why the description of the Black Chocobo mount in FFXIV says it "looks more muscular" than the regular yellow version, and that "when left alone, it has a tendency to start squatting".
EDIT:
Screenshot of the FFXIV mount description just for the record:
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So to be slightly fair to Sephiroth, while he did just kick Zack's ass, he's also still running on multiple days of no sleep and a heavy helping of delusion, meaning it absolutely makes some sense that his guard would be down enough for Cloud to not only back attack him in Jenova's room, but also manage to smack his ass into the Lifestream while he's busy gloating with his katana shoved twelve feet up Cloud's chest cavity.
But yes, it's also absolutely evidence that the real Sephiroth is in there somewhere and it's not just some Jenova cells clone running "Beep Boop Bio-Sephiroth v1.237x", because the sheer raw salt this man has over his double loss is honestly beyond ludicrous. FFVII has gotten Prequels, Sequels, Remakes, Movies, Crossovers, and just Cloud and Sephiroth derping it up in entire other franchises like Kingdom Hearts, and Sephiroth is very consistently, always, always pulling the same shit with Cloud. Cloud is going to be happily retired and on his deathbed surrounded by all his great-grandchildren someday, and the last thing he will see is Sephiroth's ghost popping in to go "YOU SURE THIS IS REAL BUD, OHHHHH LITTLE CLONE BABY BOY" as he default dances at the end of Cloud's bed because this man's spirit is held together by duct tape and spite.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I wonder what kind of Materia Sephiroth's memory would make? Probably some kinda spite mechanic where you deal more damage to something that attacked you recently.
Zap Rowsdower
Ex-cultist vagrant
- Location
- Bright lights, big city
- Pronouns
- He/Him
A materia for Everybody's Grudge, the traditional Tonberry attack
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- They/Them
It would be funny that Sephiroth's memory gets turned into a Tonberry summon, turn the spite fueled anime boy with a giant sword into a grudge fueled avocado with a knife.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Three:
Lucrecia's cave is available at this point if you have a Green Chocobo. The submarine can also get you there post-Junon.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Man.
This is wild to read, for me. Partly because the truth of who Cloud is, is honestly yeah just put together pretty damn well, but also because it's one of the few things I thought I knew about FF7 as a story, and which turned out to be completely wrong. I'd picked up a vague understanding (mostly from yaoi fanfics when I was a kid - anybody who tells you that all the porn about Cloud started with the remake's dress scene is laughably offbase, the only difference is back when I was a youngin', more of the Cloud/Sephiroth shippers figured Cloud could dom) that Cloud's hidden backstory is that he really was a tabula rasa who pieced his personality together from Tifa's stories, not because he was an escaped clone made by Hojo, but because he was one of the planet's WEAPONs, just cast from a different mould due to the reduced urgency of the disaster at the time.
This is wild to read, for me. Partly because the truth of who Cloud is, is honestly yeah just put together pretty damn well, but also because it's one of the few things I thought I knew about FF7 as a story, and which turned out to be completely wrong. I'd picked up a vague understanding (mostly from yaoi fanfics when I was a kid - anybody who tells you that all the porn about Cloud started with the remake's dress scene is laughably offbase, the only difference is back when I was a youngin', more of the Cloud/Sephiroth shippers figured Cloud could dom) that Cloud's hidden backstory is that he really was a tabula rasa who pieced his personality together from Tifa's stories, not because he was an escaped clone made by Hojo, but because he was one of the planet's WEAPONs, just cast from a different mould due to the reduced urgency of the disaster at the time.
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GilliamYaeger
M'crazy.
The funniest thing about this game is that the biggest spoiler isn't "Aerith dies" but "Cloud was in Nibelheim when Sephiroth went crazy." And unlike the death of Aerith it's hilariously hard to use as a random out of context spoiler because most people who don't know the context will simply reply "Yeah, he was. There was an hour long flashback sequence about it. Duh." Actually spoiling it would require going into detail about the whole context of the situation rather than just throwing out a one-liner spoiler like with Aerith.
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- Location
- SV's Only Complete Persona Quest
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Given secretly being a WEAPON sounds like a very JRPG-esque reveal, I can see why people would've gone along with that.
Though a big reason I appreciate the reveal of Cloud as little more than a grunt in his past (if one who rolled a Nat20 against Sephiroth) is how many anime, JRPGs, and western works too can be obsessed with making the protagonist out to be the most super-special and important person ever, even right out of the gate
- Location
- Spain
Aerith death is an ablative armor spoiler. Everybody knows about it so they get blindsided by the real spoilers.