Ah, yes, the endless refrain of every human being who has ever player through Final Fantasy VII. Keep it handy, you'll have reason to use this phrase again every time Hojo shows up. I believe that every single fix-fic and time-travel fic set in Final Fantasy VII has "let's murder Hojo" as the first step of whatever plan the protagonist has, or close enough.
He's likely the least divisive character in the entire series, in that every fan can agree that he needs killing even if they can't agree on anything else about any of the games. That's gotta be some sort of positive, right?
Anyway, the Shinra building is interesting, in that, while the reactors were in-city dungeons, they were still mostly separate entities from the city - whereas the Shinra building has people living in it and that gives it a different vibe from any other dungeon from before. It's also not the first time we're made to fight inside a city - we saw FF had the pirates in Provoka and FFII had whole cities overrun with monsters - but I think none of the SNES titles had this aspect, so it's interesting that it came up again in the PS titles. Something to keep in mind going forward.
Other people mentioned this, but the first Enemy Skill materia can be found in Hojo's lab; as said, there's only four, and given how it works, you'll want it as soon as possible. Also, try your hand at stealing from the Soldiers 3rd. Class, it can be rewarding.
I'm curious if you're holding back on making the Remake comparison until you're through the whole Shinra building (which would make sense), or if you just decided you're done with the comparisons to avoid spoiling the Remake? I don't mind either way, but it'd be nice to know.
Anyway, the Shinra building is interesting, in that, while the reactors were in-city dungeons, they were still mostly separate entities from the city - whereas the Shinra building has people living in it and that gives it a different vibe from any other dungeon from before. It's also not the first time we're made to fight inside a city - we saw FF had the pirates in Provoka and FFII had whole cities overrun with monsters - but I think none of the SNES titles had this aspect, so it's interesting that it came up again in the PS titles. Something to keep in mind going forward.
There is Zozo, though, granted, it's more of a city-shaped dungeon than a proper town with fights.
Vector ssssorta counts in that there are some fights in it, though they're optional, the proper action takes place in the magitek facility.
There is also a couple of instances where specific buildings in normal towns are overrun by monsters.
Overall, though, yeah, FFVII doesn't make a hard distinction between towns and dungeons common to the genre. It's all just Midgar, as Omicron noted, which is a pretty interesting departure that ties into themes of the game and your position as a rebel against the status quo (as opposed to a member of an outside resistance to imperialism common in previous games).
Goddamnit, I used my "what the fuck" too soon and now I don't have it here. What is even. No? No. The legend of the Minotaur is not an experimental biology manuscript! What the actual hell is wrong with you!?
The cat pulls back from Hojo, who gloats that an especially ferocious specimen is on its way
…
Given that Shinra's in-house jail is on the same floor as where they stored Red XIII and Jenova, I think it's pretty clear why the Avalanche group are still alive - their fate is to be used in Hojo's next experiments.
I always thought he was a hyena, personally, but I never looked it up, so I could be wrong. As has been said, he's a fantasy creature that talks, so he may not correspond to any real world classification.
EDIT: The reason I thought that is that Red does seem to have that weird mohawk- mane hyenas have which isn't found on most animals.
It's "platypodes", because it's Greek in origin, not Latin (even when borrowed into Latin, it still used the Greek conjugations). The Greek dual "platypode" does not get used in languages that don't use duals, though.
Likewise for the plural of "octopus" and a few obscure "-pus" words (but not the actual Latin "-us" words, some of which happen to have a "p").
He's likely the least divisive character in the entire series, in that every fan can agree that he needs killing even if they can't agree on anything else about any of the games. That's gotta be some sort of positive, right?
i was typing replies to various posts made since my update but i felt i needed to briefly interject to say that cypocryphy is now threadbanned for life
i was typing replies to various posts made since my update but i felt i needed to briefly interject to say that cypocryphy is now threadbanned for life
Also it's just… Fascinating how disconnected from the world these people are? Here, or in the lounge below, they're all just… Chilling. Talking about needing to get rid of their love handles, flirting with the receptionist, just having normal lives while thousands are dead in the collapse of Sector 7. Completely insulated from the world and any level of care at the top of the world's tallest building. Not even evil, just… Oblivious to the horror going on outside their walls.
It's rather interesting how the Remake really changes the vibe here.
While there's still some casual chatter and "just another day at the office" interaction, the vast majority seems to be very much acknowledging the enormity of what happened to Sector 7. To the point where we even see regular Shinra staffers busy with the rescue and recovery efforts to such an extent that even Tifa feels relieved that they're on it. It paints the picture that while the executives except Reeve are evil assholes - President Shinra still shoots down rebuilding Sector 7, IIRC - the average Shinra employee does care and wants to do right by the people of Midgar, it would seem.
Like I said, it's an interesting change of context.
I just read Omicron's sig and remembered binging Now You Feel Like Number None during the long waiting times in the hospital when we had our first baby, and now I'm reading this thread when we're about to have our second.
I missed some of FF6, might have to go back and reread that if I have extra time.
That is... very sweet of you. Kinda makes me feel emotional, it does. I'm happy my writing could be of some distraction to you during some of the longest waits you must have had.
The discussion about the transformation of the dungeon got me thinking on how the pre-rendered era affected dungeons on both sides of the ocean. In a handful of years, the Infinity Engine CRPGs would be doing the same thing in games like Baldur's Gate and Planescape Torment.
Eventually, the 3D era would settle in on reusing assets to make unique play areas with only a handful of truly unique pieces, but for a brief moment, gaming revolved around traversing through beautiful paintings of the world, and I think that's beautiful.
It was. But to be fair, that era still lives on today in a still-living tradition of cRPGs - only they've fully solidified themselves into the "Infinity" template; there doesn't seem to be anything quite like Final Fantasy's experimental camera angles approach.
Hojo really is just amazingly gross. In the remake the other executives, who'e all been made even worse people, are creeped out by Hojo, who feels exactly the same as he always was. Can't improve on that kind of awful perfection I guess.
It's interesting, because they actually tone down Hojo somewhat. Sure, he still boasts of his intent to "crossbreed" Aerith, but it's with SOLDIER subjects - actual human beings, if modified. The plan he's proposing is just as evil, but it's not quite the same degree of "what the fuck" as him putting Aerith and this random magic dog-cat in a cell on-screen.
I've watched some ways in and I... struggle with it?
One of its core jokes is "Tifa is rash and aggressive to the point of outright abuse, Aerith is an airy fairy girl who is so pathologically cheerful she's barely functional." It feels like comically exaggerated versions of character traits these two don't actually have?
Like, to take another show by the same people - TFS!Goku is a cheerful idiot obsessed with fighting. TFS!Vegeta is a hot-blooded Saiyan prince who is so arrogant he struggles to perceive, let alone acknowledge, his own limitations. TFS!Gohan is a child in over his head, forced by circumstances to be more mature than his age, but struggling with Saiyan anger issues. TFS!Frieza is a sadistic, megalomaniacal tyrant. These all form the basis of their canon personalities - DBZA just exaggerates them for comedic effect. TFS!Alucard is, for all intents and purposes, literally the same guy with a new dub.
Meanwhile TFS!Tifa and TFS!Aerith are weird OCs. Cloud as a put-upon everyman whose aloof facade disappeared before the first episode even started is an interesting idea, but it mostly translates to him being a chew toy for Tifa. She makes fun of him for wearing the dress. That's a gag so cheap, so easy, so expected that one of the features of Wall Market we've most remarked on in this thread is precisely that it manages to avoid that cheap shot.
But seriously, love how it's done in Remake, complete with the screen distorting and the music getting out of key as even local supersoldier Cloud realises his cardio game is weak compared to his kickboxer friend.
I actually spent the entire Reno fight back in Sector 7 waiting for Rude to show up, because I could have sworn he does to make the fight ore complicated... but nope, he doesn't make an appearance until now.
The scale is kind of fucked and inconsistent as is typical for an RPG with a world map and sweeping shots of a city that isn't that big relative to real ones... but the fact Shinra HQ is called "Sector 0" and towers in comparison to actual city blocks makes it seem less like an office building and more like an arcology. Those 50-something floors you skipped might just be entirely combined living and working quarters. The floor space in the game doesn't quite live up to that... but again, space is warped for RPG scale so you can imagine more just off screen.
Oooh, yeah. I wasn't thinking about it because it's only talked about as "the Shinra Building" and it doesn't have some of the characteristic aesthetics used for cyberpunk arcologies like "zigurrat" or "black glass pyramid," but that absolutely makes sense and would feed well into their theme of isolation from the trouble of the ground. The Shinra Building is an arcology, it's canon now.
By the way... did the original translation throw in an extra creepy line from Hojo mentioning that Aerith will be a "strong mother" besides "a few frailties"?
Because that's something that hit me as extra fucked up.
Original Translation:
President Shinra: "What about the Promised Land? Won't it hinder our plans?"
Hojo: "That's what I need to plan. The mother is strong... and yet has her weaknesses."
Re-Translation Mod:
President Shinra: "What about the Promised Land? Won't the delay hinder our plans?"
Hojo: "That is my conviction. In any case, the girl will be a strong mother. Although... She does have a few frailties..."
And then he laughs creepily.
So yeah, he's making creepy references to Aerith's potential for motherhood at the end of the conversation. Urgh. This guy is just... the worst.
So uhhh... have you been trying out the Steal Materia?
There's a nice opportunity while you're in the building and looking at these guys.
And for two enemy types in here you didn't comment on and verifiably can't now because you crossed an event trigger... well, there's a giant gun-armed Warning Board (don't go exploring when you work at Shinra, Christ, your keycard is literally the only thing stopping the wet floor signs from shooting you) and a robot called the "Moth Slasher" in the original translation but in the retranslation is "Moss Slasher" because it has spinning ground-level blades indicating it's probably some kind of evil lawn maintenance unit (to trim that grove in the rest area, I suppose).
I have been trying the Steal command, but its success rate against the SOLDIER troops ended up too low for me to get anything useful. I did get the... Inexplicable Attack of the Arcade Cabinets, though.
So, in case you didn't find it, there's a shop you can access if you went up the stairs and then into a door on your right. Says a lot when not even a terrorist attack on the headquarters is grounds for shutting the store down.
It's a pretty funny scene; Barret holds up the poor shopkeep at gunpoint, she's like "please take everything you need," and he goes, "what are we, thieves? Of course we'll pay you!" which results in the normal store window opening. Hilarious.
You didn't mention it @Omicron, so I can only assume you didn't spot it, but if you look in this picture you can see a sphere to the left of Cloud. That's the Enemy Skill materia, this games Blue Magic item. There's only four of them in the game but this is the first one.
I recall one of the interactable billboards or consoles in that area played a pre-rendered cinematic advertisement for Shinra's vehicles. It stuck in my mind because in the limited hardware of the Switch, there is a very noticeable lag as the game has to fire up whatever video replay engine is needed.
Oh, yeah! It's part of the same sequence I missed, actually, so I only now just found it after being alerted to it. It's pretty sweet:
Can't really show it as a video, obviously, but it's very dynamic, very advert-like, "feels" very technical with a bunch of specs flashing by...
Notably that car is a single-seater. Which suggests some different priorities for Midgar's idea of what a car is for - unless it's specifically, like, a racing model? But "cars in Midgar are commonly monoseater who can only seat the drivers" would be kind of sociologically fascinating in its own right.
I'm curious if you're holding back on making the Remake comparison until you're through the whole Shinra building (which would make sense), or if you just decided you're done with the comparisons to avoid spoiling the Remake? I don't mind either way, but it'd be nice to know.
It wasn't intentional initially - I was meaning to have a Remake breakdown at the end of the update - then I looked at the time and realized it was "post tonight" or "have a Remake comparison" and the update was already a gargantuan 8k words and I wanted it posted. So, by default, it's been pushed to the end of the next update, or potentially a separate, shorter "Remake Comparison" update once we're done with the next actual update, which I also predict to be mammoth-sized.
It's rather interesting how the Remake really changes the vibe here.
While there's still some casual chatter and "just another day at the office" interaction, the vast majority seems to be very much acknowledging the enormity of what happened to Sector 7. To the point where we even see regular Shinra staffers busy with the rescue and recovery efforts to such an extent that even Tifa feels relieved that they're on it. It paints the picture that while the executives except Reeve are evil assholes - President Shinra still shoots down rebuilding Sector 7, IIRC - the average Shinra employee does care and wants to do right by the people of Midgar, it would seem.
Like I said, it's an interesting change of context.
One thing that really stuck out to me is that you can catch a scene of Reeve's department actively, frantically planning overtime for everyone to start immediately putting together "three-, five- and ten-year plans" to simultaneously rebuild the city and the Plate, and that happens literally three minutes before Shinra dismissively informs Reeve that they won't, in fact, be repairing Sector 7 at all.
Heidegger: Have you been getting actual work done, or has it been another of your "fuck around and find out" weeks?
Hojo: Oh, I can assure you we've made great progress on a number of projects- *Heidegger holds up a UV lamp and Hojo glows like a star*
Hojo: ...would you believe me if I told you most of this was blood?
Heidegger: Much as I want to, no.
Hojo is always a good reminder that anyone who insists ethics holds back science should be immediately stuffed in the smelliest locker/prison cell you can find.
It's interesting that we have and will see(n) normal looking combustion engine vehicles, but Shnra purposely designed their new Mako-powered fleet to look like something Dick Dastardly would drive in Wacky Races.
I really like that Shinra is basically split three ways between the "Tyrannical Plutocrat", "Mad Science for Fun & Profit", and "Bro, I'm Just Trying To Do My Job" factions.
Hojo is always a good reminder that anyone who insists ethics holds back science should be immediately stuffed in the smelliest locker/prison cell you can find.
As with most real life people who talk up Reason and Logic and downplay "weak emotion", he's talking complete bullshit to make his self-centered impulses sound more respectable. Science? Where's his peer review? His control groups? His papers? What was his hypothesis he was trying to ascertain the truth of, outside of "lol wouldn't it be cool if I did this thing"?
He's no mad scientist, he's just an engineer fucking around.
Gotta say, it's really notable just how much denser this game is than its predecessors. Like, FFVI was also fairly frontloaded with cutscenes and setpieces, but by the equivalent playtime there already were sections of pure dungeon exploration and open-ish world. Here, we go from setpiece to setpiece, with a lot of information being delivered to us each time.
Just to throw a comparison on here, playing both FFVI and FFVII along with the LP: I had about five hours of playtime on my file when I finished Shinra Tower. In FFVI? The five hour mark was at least around the battle of Narshe, possibly closer to Zozo. In one case, you haven't even confirmed if there's such thing as a world map yet, in the other you've run around every continent except the one with Vector.
I have been trying the Steal command, but its success rate against the SOLDIER troops ended up too low for me to get anything useful. I did get the... Inexplicable Attack of the Arcade Cabinets, though.
Yeah, Steal rates are pretty whack in FFVII from what I've seen. Based entirely on character and enemy levels, so it's probably best stuck on Cloud most of the time.
Also in looking up the steal rates to check I found out that apparently you can link Steal with the All materia??? Sure, why not, AoE steal is go, give it a try.
I've watched some ways in and I... struggle with it?
One of its core jokes is "Tifa is rash and aggressive to the point of outright abuse, Aerith is an airy fairy girl who is so pathologically cheerful she's barely functional." It feels like comically exaggerated versions of character traits these two don't actually have?
That's honestly a valid complaint and probably where the parody is at its weakest early on. Personally I feel that they managed to deal with that problem as the series goes on and they found their footing with the characters so I hope you'll give it a bit more time.
On the one hand, it's permanently missable. In fact, I think it might only be available for that scene.
On the other hand, Blue Magic is always optional stuff we'd be having to guide you for, and as per usual the spells range from gamebreaking for the time you can unlock them, very useful (mighty guard is just the best buff spell), to worthless.
On the Hojo mutated third hand, are you really trying if you miss this?
On the mutant fourth hand (jesus christ Hojo), there are three more Enemy Skill materias to pick up throughout the game, and really you don't need more than one.
On the other hand, Blue Magic is always optional stuff we'd be having to guide you for, and as per usual the spells range from gamebreaking for the time you can unlock them, very useful (mighty guard is just the best buff spell), to worthless.
I'd argue against that, I got pretty effective Blue Magic by just playing blind. You'd only have to guide him to optimize his use of it and I don't think the game demands that level of optimization. Sure, I did end up with some useless powers, but if you get two or three good ones, that's enough.
One thing that really stuck out to me is that you can catch a scene of Reeve's department actively, frantically planning overtime for everyone to start immediately putting together "three-, five- and ten-year plans" to simultaneously rebuild the city and the Plate, and that happens literally three minutes before Shinra dismissively informs Reeve that they won't, in fact, be repairing Sector 7 at all.
I like Reeve, but I do think Remake adjusted him a bit to make him more obviously good-ish, compared to the original where you could ascribe various motives to him. I kind of prefer the original interpretation - this lineup of cartoon capitalist supervillains didn't need a One Good Guy.
Goddamnit, I used my "what the fuck" too soon and now I don't have it here. What is even. No? No. The legend of the Minotaur is not an experimental biology manuscript! What the actual hell is wrong with you!?
The answer is "everything". Everything is wrong with Professor Hojo. He's just that big a creep, and I'd imagine the only reason he got hired over someone competent was a combination of sheer ruthlessness and a complete disregard for ethics that allows him to do whatever his paymasters at ShinRa tell him. That, and he's probably the biggest bullshitter in Midgar, hell, maybe even the FF7 setting as a whole.
Well, if you were to grind at it, you would get a very neat goodie which won't be matched for a few more hours of gameplay.
Cloud's second weapon. Everything you can buy in stores for him for a while longer is either a sidegrade or inferior to the sword the Soldiers carry. You'll be able to buy it later, if you're interested.
You also already missed a similar weapon upgrade opportunity for Aerith, on a very, very rare spawning strong enemy called "Eligor" in the Train Graveyard, and your second chance will be at literally the same stores later.
I feel like that's probably the kind of thing that's probably not worth the effort, personally. For one thing, you're not really 'missing' anything.
Oh, besides the mohawk mane, another reason Red XIII reads as a Hyena to me is that his shoulders are taller than his lower back, which again isn't something you see in many animals outside hyenas. It's not something common in big cats or dogs. But those both could just be artistic license.
