Leingod's Ideas Thread

[EmpirePlayer]

Problem is I'm not entirely sure what I want the upgrade to be. I do have an idea for what cards the PC will get as a temporary replacement if I go the "Light of Destruction brainwashes the Lightsworn" idea. Namely, the Allies of Justice, who are all Dark monsters whose effects are dependent on their enemies being Light, but who - as the name suggests - are actually good guys, who are meant as specific opposition to the "Worm" archetype but work almost as well against Lightsworn and really any Light deck that the Light of Destruction hands out to its lackeys. Be a good way to show that both light and dark are capable of both good and evil and all that jazz.

Click to shrink...

Hmm... I have an Idea. Do you mind if I PM it to you when I finish making it?

I considered that, too (I actually used that deck until I got my Spell Counter deck), but the problem is that Professor Banner/Sabatiel the Alchemist used the Macro cards and built his deck around Banishing, and without the Macro series the D.D. stuff is sort of lacking a real "trump card" monster. I mean, there are cards that can fill the role, but it'll lack the "boss monster" feel.

Click to shrink...

Another Idea. PM?

 

[Leingod]

Hmm... I have an Idea. Do you mind if I PM it to you when I finish making it?

Another Idea. PM?

Click to shrink...

Yeah, no problem.

 

[Derkan]

@Leingod It is mentioned on the poll a MLP quest, but i didn't find a pitch for it in this thread, so could you make one please ?

 

[Leingod]

@Leingod It is mentioned on the poll a MLP quest, but i didn't find a pitch for it in this thread, so could you make one please ?

Click to shrink...

I've included stuff in the polls that I've thought of and am going to write down, but haven't developed my ideas enough to make them worth posting yet. "Enemy of Harmony" is one of them. It's going to be posted up here, once I write it out.

 

[Leingod]

Tales of Symphonia Quest
​

Once upon a time, there existed a giant tree that was the source of mana. A war, however, caused this tree to wither away, and a hero's life was sacrificed in order to take its place. Grieving over the loss, the goddess Martel disappeared unto the heavens. The goddess left her angels with this edict:

"You must wake me, for if I should sleep, the world will be destroyed."​

The angels bore the Chosen One, who headed towards the tower that reached up unto the heavens. And that marked the beginning of the regeneration of the world.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Iselia, the Village of Oracles

The road was long and winding, and though it was wide enough for a single cart to pass it was merely hard-packed earth, created and maintained more by the trodding of feet and hooves and wheels over countless years than conscious effort. Though many walked this road, very few did so alone. Bandits, dangerous monsters, and the dreaded Desians; there were a thousand reasons against traveling alone. To do so was a mark of either supreme confidence in one's ability to defend oneself... or complete foolishness.

You have traveled alone before, though you aren't doing so this time. On this journey, you've linked up with a caravan of traders and other travelers. You've traveled with odd company before, and this time is no different: of all things. The most notable on this journey is Nova, a friendly self-described traveling zoologist (of all things) who only engages in trade to fund his expeditions to study wildlife with his family, as well as a mercenary who answers to the name "Kratos" and has mostly kept to himself for the entire journey. Even when he has spoken, it's seldom been more than ten words at a time.

As the caravan prepares to depart, you sit alone just as Kratos always does, pondering your own reasons for choosing this particular destination.
"Excuse me!" Nova's son Alduin calls out to you, causing you to turn your head. "Excuse me..."

[] Sir
[] Ma'am

"... we're about to leave if you're ready!"

"Right. Thank you," you tell him simply as you get up and take your place on the caravan. You pick up your equipment, which you had been doing some maintenance on.

What weapon do you use to protect yourself?

[] Knives & Daggers

You own a variety of knives and daggers, which you keep on your body in places both obvious and hidden. You use them as both hand-held weapons and as thrown ones, and you fight with exceptional speed, agility and precision. You wear the lightest armor possible, assuming you wear any at all.

Although you're a human, you apparently have elven ancestry somewhere far back in your family line, as you're capable of basic magic, which you mostly use to weaken foes, strengthen yourself (and occasionally allies) and to heal, though you do know a few ways to combine your magic with your knives to turn it toward more offensive ends.

You're actually a traveling merchant yourself, peddling various odds and ends all throughout Sylvarant. You've had both ups and downs, but for now you're prosperous enough that you've got your own wagon right now, loaded with cloth and manned by two porters that you hired back in Triet.

You're a friendly but very private person, whose sense of humor tends toward subtle, insulting sarcasm. You're quite a dedicated merchant, but someone who sees your skills in action is likely to get the idea that it's not your only line of work. Every once in a while, someone has thought you were a thief, or a spy, or even an assassin. Of course, no one has ever been able to prove any of those ridiculous assertions.

[] Bow & Arrows

You fight with a longbow. Obviously, you shoot arrows with it, but the bow itself is of solid elven construction and reinforced with magic, such that you can actually use it as a short staff if you have to engage in melee. Though quick, sure-footed and strong, you vastly prefer facing enemies from afar. You wear lighter armor in order to maintain your mobility.

As an elf, you have a natural ability to cast magic, which you've combined with your archery, allowing you to deliver spells with arrows. Most of your spells are offensive in nature for this reason, though you do know the spell First Aid at least.

You are an exile from one of the few elven enclaves left in Sylvarant. You wander the world now as a mercenary, searching for purpose in a life bereft of your kith and kindred, alone amongst strangers whose strange ways have baffled and confused you at every turn. You aren't even entirely sure yourself why you decided to come to Iselia... there's just something in the flow of the world's mana that seems to be leading you there.

You are stoic, patient and taciturn; you've barely spoken to anyone more than Kratos has on this trip. It's not that you're without feelings, but you're simply in much better control of them than humans, who seem to you to be oddly emotional and short-tempered. Perhaps your long life simply gives you the patience to face situations without feeling the need to make snap-decisions based on emotion.

[] Spear & Shield

You fight with an eight-foot spear in one hand and a shield in another. Your strength and hardiness are your best traits in combat, and you present a powerful offense and defense in combat, with more reach than most bandits and animals are capable of bringing to bear. You wear heavy armor to help you fight on the front lines and protect others.

Being purely human, you have no magical prowess. You are dependent entirely on your own strength... and an Exsphere that you were given to assist you in your duty. This Exsphere makes your already impressive physical skills borderline superhuman.

You are a member of the ancient order of the Knights of Asgard. Back when Asgard was a mighty kingdom, the Knights of Asgard were its first and greatest line of defense, warriors of unsurpassed bravery and honor. But the Kingdom of Asgard fell centuries ago to the wretched Desians, and the Knights of Asgard were left without a kingdom to serve, their numbers decimated. But no matter how reduced they are, the Knights that remain refuse to allow the Desians – or anyone – to prey on the innocent and the defenseless. You have taken your vows, and so you wander the world as a knight-errant, saving any you can.

As befits a Knight of Asgard, you are brave, honorable and devoted to your vows to protect the lives and happiness of the innocent and the reputation of your order. You're a friendly, down-to-earth person as well, which makes you very popular with those you protect, and you enjoy the simple things in life. Some tell you you're somewhat gullible and naive, however.

 

[EmpirePlayer]

Yeeeeeeeeeessssssss. Tales of Symphonia. Most likely before the start of canon, to boot. Though one thing that slightly bothers me is that I cannot place precisely where and when the MC is. But hey, that's a very small nitpick.

 

[Leingod]

Yeeeeeeeeeessssssss. Tales of Symphonia. Most likely before the start of canon, to boot. Though one thing that slightly bothers me is that I cannot place precisely where and when the MC is. But hey, that's a very small nitpick.

Click to shrink...

On the road to Iselia with Kratos, so actually right before the Temple of Martel is attacked and Colette begins her journey. So actually at the very start of canon. Sorry.

 

[EmpirePlayer]

What sorry? That is the best opening time I could have asked for. It is just that I got confused where were we in the timelin3.

 

[Leingod]

You know, I wonder if a Slytherin Quest for Harry Potter would be a good idea. I kind of hate canon's "everyone in Slytherin is an asshole at best, no exceptions" thing, and basically every Harry Potter quest I've ever seen has had the PC in Ravenclaw. And while I think I've heard of one or two quests about Slytherin, I'm led to believe it was all "Evil Overlord List" kind of stuff, which I suppose has a certain appeal but isn't really what I'm into writing. Unlike the way SB/SV seems to trend, I care less about whether a character fits some arbitrary measurement of competence and more that the character be well-written and compelling. Vetinari's a fun character and all, but he really only fits in a certain kind of setting.

Basically, I think it might be interesting to explore a more nuanced Slytherin House that's elitist and provides a comfortable breeding ground for condescending bigotry but isn't a bunch of magical Nazis-in-training, with a PC who displays the virtues that "ambitious, cunning and willing to break rules" can be. I know Harry had that whole "you'd have made a good Slytherin" thing, but... that's only kind of true. Harry was clever and he was willing to break the rules when he had to, but he was also completely devoid of drive or ambition unless his friends were in danger; he had nothing in the way of personal ambition and just kind of drifted through his school life anytime Voldemort wasn't making his scar act up. It's probably a result of his upbringing with the Dursleys; any time he actually achieved something the Dursleys got mad and punished him, especially if he showed up their precious Dudley, and that negative feedback loop just kind of destroyed his drive to succeed and do well for self-interested reasons like getting a good job or anything like that.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Jacobs Applied Cultural Anthology seems somewhat like what you want, albeit a story rather than a quest.
Oh you still don't have your Avatar quests in your sig.

 

[Leingod]

Being a huge fan of Romance of the Three Kingdoms, that's yet another thing I've had ideas about writing a quest about. My current idea is to have several possible origins, each separated by their name. Depending on the origin you might be old enough to do stuff during the Yellow Turban Rebellion, but more likely you're not going to be old enough until the Guandong Alliance forms to fight Dong Zhuo at least.

Incidentally, a very interesting (and honestly sort of horrifying) statistic for just how destructive the Three Kingdoms period was: at its height, the Han Dynasty's tax registers report a tax-paying population of nearly 60,000,000 people. By the time the Jin Dynasty unified China, the registers report the tax-paying population at 16,000,000. The drop in population (even if a lot of that can be accounted as people just taking advantage of the situation to avoid paying taxes) is staggering. By the Sui Dynasty 300 years later, the population was still only about 75-80% of what it had been at the Han's height.

Also, if you know the numbers involved (which are apparently recorded in Records of the Three Kingdoms, which the Romance is sorta based on), you'll realize that historically speaking, Shu and Wu really never had a chance at winning.

Shu's population in 263 (the year Liu Shan surrendered to Wei) was about 1.1 million, and its military was 100,000 strong.
Wu's population in 280 (the year Sun Hao surrendered to Jin) was about 2.5 million, and its military was 230,000 strong.
Wei's population in 260 was about 4.4 million, and its military was somewhere between 300-500,000 strong when they conquered Shu.

Some other things the Romance fails to mention much is the differences between the governance, economy and military differences between the Three Kingdoms (though you might spot some if you read between the lines).

Wei, for example, had a virtual monopoly on the best horsemen, thanks to Cao Cao's control over the north, which included a lot of subject horse nomads he could call on, including the Wuhuan. Cao Cao also instituted an expanded version of the tuntian system created by Emperor Wu of Han; essentially, the central government moved refugees onto vacant lands and covered start-up costs for them to start farming it in return for about half of their harvest, and also made soldiers stationed in areas not at immediate risk of attack take up farming.

Wu, of course, had the best navy until the Jin built their own and Wang Jun proved the better admiral. When Wu surrendered, their total navy numbered over 50,000 ships. Also, it arguably had the best economy of the three and had trade links to places like Cambodia, Vietnam and even places as far-off as India and the Middle East. Chen Shou notes that Pan Zhang created "military markets" after every battle to distribute military equipment, with the involvement of civilians.

And Shu... Uh, Zhuge Liang invented a much-improved version of the repeating crossbow called the Zhuge Nu ("Zhuge's Crossbow"), so that was good. And Wei Yan created a very clever series of defenses that capitalized on Shu's defenses to make it virtually impossible to invade successfully... which Jiang Wei dismantled because contrary to what you learned from the Romance, the guy was a complete and total failure in every respect as a military leader.

Yeah... Shu really didn't have a chance in Hell, even without losing Jing to Wu and without Zhuge Liang and Jiang Wei bleeding it dry with their constant, nigh-useless Northern Campaigns.

 

[EmpirePlayer]

Incidentally, a very interesting (and honestly sort of horrifying) statistic for just how destructive the Three Kingdoms period was: at its height, the Han Dynasty's tax registers report a tax-paying population of nearly 60,000,000 people. By the time the Jin Dynasty unified China, the registers report the tax-paying population at 16,000,000. The drop in population (even if a lot of that can be accounted as people just taking advantage of the situation to avoid paying taxes) is staggering. By the Sui Dynasty 300 years later, the population was still only about 75-80% of what it had been at the Han's height.

Click to shrink...

Yep. Sure, it was an Age of Heroes. But an Age of Heroes does not necessarily means Age of Good Guys. The people did not really get to live a long life, what with war, looting, pillaging, diseases, rice shortages (Hey, you blew up that dam we really needed for our crops!). After all, these heroes are using the old definition for them.

And yeah, Ancient China can throw around horrifying amounts of Soldiers casually. Imagining the faces of Roman Commanders when they look at the enemy army... and realize that the moving landscape is an entire army. Sure, most will most likely be conscripted peasants, poorly equipped, with poor communication, and there is no possible way for such an army be supplied from China, so this is something that will never happen.

Wei, for example, had a virtual monopoly on the best horsemen, thanks to Cao Cao's control over the north, which included a lot of subject horse nomads he could call on, including the Wuhuan.

Click to shrink...

Yep. Wei has their Horsemen from the Northern Plains.

Cao Cao also instituted an expanded version of the tuntian system created by Emperor Wu of Han; essentially, the central government moved refugees onto vacant lands and covered start-up costs for them to start farming it in return for about half of their harvest, and also made soldiers stationed in areas not at immediate risk of attack take up farming.

Click to shrink...

For all that people give crap to Cao Cao (Not undeserved), he knew how to use the population to his advantage. After all, he is to rule a Kingdom of Wei, not a Kingdom of Ashes.

Wu, of course, had the best navy until the Jin built their own and Wang Jun proved the better admiral.

Click to shrink...

They kinda needed that navy. Wu lands are kinda hard to navigate without them. This is also why Cao Cao could never invade properly via the rivers after Chi Bi. He just lost too many of his ships that Wu could defeat any attempt of a major invasion by water for years after.

Also, it arguably had the best economy of the three and had trade links to places like Cambodia, Vietnam and even places as far-off as India and the Middle East. Chen Shou notes that Pan Zhang created "military markets" after every battle to distribute military equipment, with the involvement of civilians.

Click to shrink...

Wu's rivers make for good trading, which they leveraged quite well. While Shu... err...

Anyways, I seems to remember reading somewhere that the depopulation of China after the Three Kingdoms era also led to some changed to the land. I think it was the fact that the North became much more depopulated from people moving out, and the formerly massive amounts of rice the North produced dropped. While the relatively undeveloped South became rich from all the trading going on.

I think that the Shu lands were never intended to be anything more than a point from which they could get better pieces of land, but that failed, and the rest is history.

And Shu... Uh, Zhuge Liang invented a much-improved version of the repeating crossbow called the Zhuge Nu ("Zhuge's Crossbow"), so that was good. And Wei Yan created a very clever series of defenses that capitalized on Shu's defenses to make it virtually impossible to invade successfully... which Jiang Wei dismantled because contrary to what you learned from the Romance, the guy was a complete and total failure in every respect as a military leader.

Yeah... Shu really didn't have a chance in Hell, even without losing Jing to Wu and without Zhuge Liang and Jiang Wei bleeding it dry with their constant, nigh-useless Northern Campaigns.

Click to shrink...

Aye. Shu's hope (no matter how much of a long-shot) at any chance of toppling the Wei died when Guan Yu got his head chopped off by Wu. From my point of view, Shu needed Wu more than Wu needed Shu, and Liu Bei went and attacked Wu to disastrous results. I mean, I get that honor demanded Liu Bei do so contrary to everyone's advice, but what the heck.

And as much as I like Kong Ming, he is, at the end one person. And he had his flaws, too. And well, he did kinda made the Shu too reliant on having 1 really good strategist and administrator, so after he bit the dust (Albeit in an epic fashion.) after the Fifth Northern Campaign (I really should try to find a full set of the Three Kingdoms [2010])...

But yeah, Shu's thing in most narratives was their Great Generals (Not to say Wu and Wei didn't have few stars, they had a lot of decent-to-good generals too, but the spotlight was on Cao Cao and Sima Yi for Wei, and the Sun family for Wu), and they all kinda died due to getting perforated by arrows early on, their heads chopped off by friend or foe due to their personalities, overworking themselves after their ruler screwed up, or of plain old age. (Points if you can see the references.)

EDIT: Huh, the full 2010 series with Engsub is on youtube. I forgot about that.

 

[Leingod]

Yep. Sure, it was an Age of Heroes. But an Age of Heroes does not necessarily means Age of Good Guys. The people did not really get to live a long life, what with war, looting, pillaging, diseases, rice shortages (Hey, you blew up that dam we really needed for our crops!). After all, these heroes are using the old definition for them.

Click to shrink...

Though Shu at least was also notable for being very big on public works like irrigation. There were dams created by Shu that are still used in Sichuan today, albeit overhauled and modernized.

Anyways, I seems to remember reading somewhere that the depopulation of China after the Three Kingdoms era also led to some changed to the land. I think it was the fact that the North became much more depopulated from people moving out, and the formerly massive amounts of rice the North produced dropped. While the relatively undeveloped South became rich from all the trading going on.

I think that the Shu lands were never intended to be anything more than a point from which they could get better pieces of land, but that failed, and the rest is history.

Click to shrink...

The Central Plains was far and away the most populous part of China during the Han Dynasty. Yang Province (where Wu was built on) especially was seen as a hostile backwater rife with disease and hostile barbarians, and Yi Province (Shu) was only slightly better, even though the founders of both Qin and Han used it as a springboard for their conquests.

And it's less the depopulation that created the mass migration and more that the weakness it created left China vulnerable to horse nomads, who basically tore the Jin a new asshole and conquered the North, causing a mass migration to the South by people hoping to escape it and taking advantage of the same natural barriers that allowed Shu and Wu to prosper for a while. This was the 16 Kingdoms and the Northern and Southern Dynasties periods, when the mass migration completely change the demographics of China by making the south more populated and urbanized than the North, where before the exact opposite had been the case.

Aye. Shu's hope (no matter how much of a long-shot) at any chance of toppling the Wei died when Guan Yu got his head chopped off by Wu. From my point of view, Shu needed Wu more than Wu needed Shu, and Liu Bei went and attacked Wu to disastrous results. I mean, I get that honor demanded Liu Bei do so contrary to everyone's advice, but what the heck.

And as much as I like Kong Ming, he is, at the end one person. And he had his flaws, too. And well, he did kinda made the Shu too reliant on having 1 really good strategist and administrator, so after he bit the dust (Albeit in an epic fashion.) after the Fifth Northern Campaign (I really should try to find a full set of the Three Kingdoms [2010])...

But yeah, Shu's thing in most narratives was their Great Generals (Not to say Wu and Wei didn't have few stars, they had a lot of decent-to-good generals too, but the spotlight was on Cao Cao and Sima Yi for Wei, and the Sun family for Wu), and they all kinda died due to getting perforated by arrows early on, their heads chopped off by friend or foe due to their personalities, overworking themselves after their ruler screwed up, or of plain old age. (Points if you can see the references.)

Click to shrink...

Honestly in real life most of those generals weren't really that impressive. Guan Yu for example did basically nothing especially noteworthy except killing Yan Liang; everything else is made up. There was his defense of Jing, but not only did that fail, his own abrasive arrogance was what caused it in the first place an he pissed away a lot of advantages on bad tactics. But of course he's literally worshiped as a god in China now, so good luck getting any of them to admit that. Wei Yan is one of the ones who was actually much better than the novels portray him, mostly to make it look less like bullsh*t when Zhuge Liang constantly passes him up to give jobs to other people (because among his many flaws is that Zhuge Liang was very much given over to cronyism, appointing people to tasks based on his relationship with them rather than their actual competence. Ma Su is just one example of this), constantly laughs off his proposals that might actually work, and then has him killed after Zhuge himself dies because he doesn't trust the guy.

And Zhuge Liang's historical record is actually a mixed bag at best an overall quite weak. As well as the cronyism, he was extremely slow to adapt to changing conditions on the battlefield an was inflexible in his strategies. He was very much what you'd expect a guy who thinks he knows how to wage war because he's read a lot of books on the subject to be. He was an absolutely phenomenal administrator, though. And his buddy Pang Tong actually did live up to the hype as a strategist. So blame Zhang Ren.

 

[EmpirePlayer]

Tis' why I said in most narratives. Still, Liu Bei refusing to forgive Wu for killing Guan Yu killed any chance of a Shu-Wu alliance, and with that the balance of the war completely changed. After all, neither Shu nor Wu stands a chance to fight Wei alone, though invading Shu or Wu would have tied up Wei a bit too much, letting the other uninvolved Kingdom snap at Wei.

Still, in the hypothetical TK quest, would you go with the Nobunaga's Ambition approach? Or would it be more down-to-earth?

 

[Leingod]

Anyway, some origins I'm kicking around for said ROTK quest would be:

[] He Xiu (b. 168)

The son of He Jin, half-brother to the Empress who was appointed Grand General to deal with the Yellow Turbans and essentially became the regent afterward.

[] Yuan Fang (b. 170)

A proud member of the great Yuan family, the son of (the fictional) Yuan Tai, Colonel of the City Gates, and grandson of Yuan Wei, Grand Tutor and uncle to Yuan Shao and Yuan Shu.

[] Tao Zheng (b. 172)

The (adopted) third son of Tao Qian, the Imperial Protector of Xuzhou.

[] Liu Tian (b. 174)

The son of (the fictional) Liu Chong the Administrator of Nanyang Commandery and a distant relation of the Emperor through Prince An of Zinan, the 4th son of Emperor Guangwu, the founder of Eastern Han (which actually means you're more closely related than Liu Bei).

[] Song Jiang (b. 176)

The son of a clerk serving the Magistrate of Yuncheng County. Other than a rather dark complexion, not much to note here...

Tis' why I said in most narratives. Still, Liu Bei refusing to forgive Wu for killing Guan Yu killed any chance of a Shu-Wu alliance, and with that the balance of the war completely changed. After all, neither Shu nor Wu stands a chance to fight Wei alone, though invading Shu or Wu would have tied up Wei a bit too much, letting the other uninvolved Kingdom snap at Wei.

Still, in the hypothetical TK quest, would you go with the Nobunaga's Ambition approach? Or would it be more down-to-earth?

Click to shrink...

"Down-to-earth" in the sense of greater realism? Mmm, probably not. I can appreciate and enjoy that approach, but I'm a big fan of stuff with crazy action scenes about super-fighters (as my big love of both RWBY and wuxia and my desire to one day combine the two should prove). I certainly won't be going full Dynasty Warriors, though, if only because if everyone can cut down 1,000 guys in every battle it stops being remotely special. That should be something you whisper in tones of mingled awe and fear about Lu Bu as one of his greatest feats, or what drives you to declare excitedly that Guan Yu has succeeded Lu Bu as a God of War, or something like that, not go, "And? I've done that like three times this month."

 

[EmpirePlayer]

[] He Xiu (b. 168)

Click to shrink...

This one... it is too late at night right now, but I think He Jin was the guy who wanted the eunuchs ded, but failed. Which mean political plays up the wazoo. Also, old enough to fight the YT.

[] Yuan Fang

Click to shrink...

...part of the Yuan, you say. On one hand, if he can stop his family from drinking kool-aid when fighting Cao Cao, Wei would prolly never exist. That is both good and bad. Or he could join Cao Cao if his relationship with his family is bad.

[] Tao Zheng

Click to shrink...

Oh. You mean that piece of land that Liu Bei was on? And the father is the guy who 'killed' CC's dad? On one hand, outright averting Wei's invasion, on the other hand, Liu Bei is coming, and we have no idea weather he is closer to history or DW. Actually an interesting option, since we get our province if we prove more competent than the two other sons if my memory serves right.

[] Liu Tian

Click to shrink...

Oh. That sound faintly horrifying and challenging. I take it this guy is ideal for a make your own faction crowd, then?

[] Song Jiang

Click to shrink...

The nobody option. On one hand, you get to rise from nothing. On the other hand, you start as nothing.

I admit, some of the options here seems to lack some... flexibility? I mean, Yuan Feng would likely be bound by blood to the Yuan clan (unless Cao Cao comes knocking, and I doubt he would really like an easy turncoat), while Tao Zheng is kinda bound nominally to the province.

 

[Leingod]

This one... it is too late at night right now, but I think He Jin was the guy who wanted the eunuchs ded, but failed. Which mean political plays up the wazoo. Also, old enough to fight the YT.

Click to shrink...

Correct. He Jin was a butcher's son, but when his half-sister became an Imperial Consort and then Empress after bearing Emperor Ling his eldest surviving son (Ling had a lot of sons, but only two lived longer than a few years, sadly), Jin and his family members were ennobled and given government jobs. He Jin, for example, was the Administrator of a commandery before being made Grand General an tasked to deal with the Yellow Turbans, based solely on his familial connections.

The thing about Han is that the Empress's family were where you got the regents from, who serve as a natural leader for the Confucian bureaucracy. The eunuchs were originally given power to help the emperor deal with tyrannical regents, in fact, which is what led to the Ten Regular Attendants making policy decisions and selling offices to the highest bidder for their own profit.

After the Yellow Turban Rebellion, He Jin basically became the regent, and as such was embroiled in factional dispute with the eunuchs, who didn't want competition over control of the emperor. He Jin was honestly out of his depth dealing with political wrangling, and it didn't help that his half-sister, who was the only reason he had power at all, as well as his brother were both deep enough in the eunuchs' pockets to repeatedly command He Jin not to just storm in and kill them all, which was why He Jin got the bright idea of inviting Dong Zhuo and other nearby military leaders into the capital; to do what he was politically unable to do. Needless to say it ended horribly.

...part of the Yuan, you say. On one hand, if he can stop his family from drinking kool-aid when fighting Cao Cao, Wei would prolly never exist. That is both good and bad. Or he could join Cao Cao if his relationship with his family is bad.

Click to shrink...

Historically, the Grand Tutor is a title with a lot of prestige and a high salary, but no actual responsibilities. It's a title given to elder statesmen you don't like or who aren't really competent so you can keep them from taking real power without insulting them. That's why Cao Shuang tried to get Sima Yi appointed to the post; he wanted to strip Yi of his power that way. Unfortunately for him, the emperor attached a rider to that proclamation to the effect that Yi would get to keep his military command as well, so the net result was that Yi got more prestige and didn't give up anything for it. Colonel of the City Gates, meanwhile, is in charge of garrisons that man the twelve gates in the capital city.

Historically, Yuan Wei died when Yuan Shao created the Guandong Alliance; Dong Zhuo killed him on suspicion of collaborating with them. Not that he had any proof of that, but when you're Dong Zhuo you don't need proof before you start murdering people.

Oh. You mean that piece of land that Liu Bei was on? And the father is the guy who 'killed' CC's dad? On one hand, outright averting Wei's invasion, on the other hand, Liu Bei is coming, and we have no idea weather he is closer to history or DW. Actually an interesting option, since we get our province if we prove more competent than the two other sons if my memory serves right.

Click to shrink...

Tao Qian actually didn't just control Xu, BTW. Pretty much as soon as the warlord-ism started in force, he subjugated Yang Province (i.e. Wu's heartland). Yan Baihu, Wang Lang? Those guys were put in power by him. Which is why he and Sun Ce never worked together; Qian didn't really like the kid very much. So you might get involved in that, too.

My favored portrayal is probably closest to his portrayal in The Ravages of Time. That Liu Bei starts out naive to political reality, but is very clever when he wants to be, partly because he's an incredible judge of character and can thus gauge how people will act and react. And although his kindness and benevolence toward the people is genuine, he is far from devoid of personal ambition, and much is made of his resemblance in that regard (of using genuine benevolence as a mask for just-as-genuine ambition) to Liu Bang, the founder of Han. He's also genuinely a very charismatic person, even more so than Cao Cao, who in the manhua is basically concentrated awesome even despite it's obsession with "geniuses" like Sima Yi and Zhuge Liang (which really is just following the tradition of the original novel).

Oh. That sound faintly horrifying and challenging. I take it this guy is ideal for a make your own faction crowd, then?

Click to shrink...

And for those people who hate on Liu Bei even though they'll do the exact same thing given the chance. It's not like he was any more ambitious than his peers, after all; a lot of the booing he gets is from people who look at his frequent backstabbings and failures, both of which are almost entirely due to the fact that he was far more disadvantaged than either Cao Cao or the Sun family.

Think about it. When Cao Cao started out, his family gave him enough money, equipment and food to recruit, arm and feed thousands of men, and he happened to be the closest guy to the fleeing emperor who was willing to go get him.

Meanwhile Sun Ce had a famous father to enhance his reputation (and said father's still-loyal veteran generals) and was working for Yuan Shu originally, who spotted him the first few thousand men he needed to take Yang Province and then was too busy f*cking up to make any serious moves to put him down when Ce rebelled.

What did Liu Bei have? Pretty much nothing to start with except the services of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei (who were hardly the incredible super-soldiers fiction portrays them as) and whatever supplies and men his charisma and reputation as a righteous Han loyalist could convince people to give him. There was no rich family member to spot him a few thousand troops and no veteran generals who'd served under his father and whose loyalty he could be certain of. Also, Xu Province was kind of a white elephant for Liu Bei; by the time Tao Qian died and he received it, Liu Bei was surrounded on all sides by hostile forces much larger than his own. To the north was the behemoth of Yuan Shao, to the west was Cao Cao (whom Liu Bei was obligated by his PR as the ultimate Han loyalist to oppose no matter what), and to the south was both Yuan Shu and Sun Ce. The latter three all had some reason or other to hate Tao Qian and by extension Liu Bei, and Yuan Shao was greedy enough to just go for it.

The nobody option. On one hand, you get to rise from nothing. On the other hand, you start as nothing.

Click to shrink...

Also a shout-out to Water Margin. I'll probably give this one the highest stats to compensate for the lack of other advantages, or perhaps a chance to get the loyalty of competent followers.

I admit, some of the options here seems to lack some... flexibility? I mean, Yuan Feng would likely be bound by blood to the Yuan clan (unless Cao Cao comes knocking, and I doubt he would really like an easy turncoat), while Tao Zheng is kinda bound nominally to the province.

Click to shrink...

That "bond of blood" hardly stopped Yuan Shao and Yuan Shu (who might have been either cousins or brothers; it's complicated) from trying to kill each other and basically never getting along after Dong Zhuo took power. The Yuan clan was dysfunctional enough that Yuan Fang going his own way (especially if his father and grandfather are killed by Dong Zhuo because of Yuan Shao's actions) won't be totally out of the norm or anything. After all, Liu Ye was also a descendant of the imperial family and he felt no particular inclination to side with Liu Bei over Cao Cao.

I'll give you Tao Zheng, but that's kind of the point, plus it gives the opportunity to fight Sun Ce and to get involved in the interplay between Liu Bei, Cao Cao and Lu Bu. And if worst comes to worst, Zhang Xiu killed Cao Cao's eldest son and favorite bodyguard and he was allowed to surrender without penalty and even got rewarded.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Incidentally, a very interesting (and honestly sort of horrifying) statistic for just how destructive the Three Kingdoms period was: at its height, the Han Dynasty's tax registers report a tax-paying population of nearly 60,000,000 people. By the time the Jin Dynasty unified China, the registers report the tax-paying population at 16,000,000. The drop in population (even if a lot of that can be accounted as people just taking advantage of the situation to avoid paying taxes) is staggering. By the Sui Dynasty 300 years later, the population was still only about 75-80% of what it had been at the Han's height.

Click to shrink...

What..
I don't even..
Citation requested.

Shu's population in 263 (the year Liu Shan surrendered to Wei) was about 1.1 million, and its military was 100,000 strong.
Wu's population in 280 (the year Sun Hao surrendered to Jin) was about 2.5 million, and its military was 230,000 strong.
Wei's population in 260 was about 4.4 million, and its military was somewhere between 300-500,000 strong when they conquered Shu.

Click to shrink...

And the 52 million other people at the start? Where the big three really such small fish?

but when you're Dong Zhuo you don't need proof before you start murdering people.

Click to shrink...

Why can't we play as this guy?

 

[Leingod]

What..
I don't even..
Citation requested.

Click to shrink...

Unfortunately, the source is in Chinese. That's the thing: there's very little in the way of translations of all this stuff, mostly because the Chinese language is a huge investment of time and effort alone, much less getting all the cultural context required to speak knowledgeably about this stuff by the standards of academia. And unfortunately the people who do study this stuff don't seem to realize that there is in fact a growing popular interest in this stuff, so pretty much all of them are writing for each other, not for the average guy on the street, so they'll reference works that haven't been translated and would be massive and nearly impossible for the average person to read even if they were translated.

But I digress. The citation is:

"From Zou Jiwan (Chinese: 鄒紀萬), Zhongguo Tongshi - Weijin Nanbeichao Shi 中國通史·魏晉南北朝史, (1992)."​

And the 52 million other people at the start? Where the big three really such small fish?

Click to shrink...

The Yellow Turban Rebellion was kicked off by years of successive natural disasters which compounded with an extremely corrupt government to cause widespread famine. The breakdown of central authority into feuding warlords didn't help, as invading armies would destroy infrastructure like dams, bridges and irrigation works to deny their use to the people they were attacking. Add into that the disease that runs rampant in these conditions, etc...

Again though, census records and tax records were basically the same thing at this time, so the chaos of the times likely led to a lot more people being able to dodge their taxes, so the actual number is likely higher, possibly even by several million, but it does represent the actual tax-paying population of the kingdoms. So yeah, they were such small fish in comparison to the Han. There's a reason the Han Dynasty is considered one of China's greatest golden ages to such extent that the Chinese word for Chinese people means "Han people," their language is "Han language," and their writing system is "Han characters." And there's also a reason why the Jin Dynasty lost Northern China to horse nomads and had to flee to the South only 37 years after the end of the Three Kingoms Period.

Why can't we play as this guy?

Click to shrink...

Because I don't really feel like writing a main character who gives his soldiers free license to pillage, rage and murder wantonly (and despite the liberties the Romance took to make him seem even more despicable, Dong Zhuo in fact do that), murders people for extremely flimsy reasons, pisses away pretty much every advantage that falls into his lap, and consigns thousands of people to their deaths by forcibly relocating them miles away from Luoyang to Chang'an at spearpoint... right after looting the city of everything valuable (including the tombs of the emperors) and razing it to the ground.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Unfortunately, the source is in Chinese.

Click to shrink...

The one flaw in my otherwise perfect plan.

Because I don't really feel like writing a main character who gives his soldiers free license to pillage, rage and murder wantonly (and despite the liberties the Romance took to make him seem even more despicable, Dong Zhuo in fact do that), murders people for extremely flimsy reasons, pisses away pretty much every advantage that falls into his lap, and consigns thousands of people to their deaths by forcibly relocating them miles away from Luoyang to Chang'an at spearpoint... right after looting the city of everything valuable (including the tombs of the emperors) and razing it to the ground.

Click to shrink...

Maybe so. But I bet SV could manage all of that in half the time it too Dong.

 

[EmpirePlayer]

Yuan Shu

Click to shrink...

Oh. I remember this guy now! He's the loon that decided he was Emperor right after getting the Imperial Seal!

Historically, Yuan Wei died when Yuan Shao created the Guandong Alliance; Dong Zhuo killed him on suspicion of collaborating with them. Not that he had any proof of that, but when you're Dong Zhuo you don't need proof before you start murdering people.

Click to shrink...

Well, that and having a big army led by a general really good at fighting.

"bond of blood"

Click to shrink...

Whoops. Yeah, it slipped my mind just how dysfunctional the Yuan clan were.

I'll give you Tao Zheng, but that's kind of the point, plus it gives the opportunity to fight Sun Ce and to get involved in the interplay between Liu Bei, Cao Cao and Lu Bu. And if worst comes to worst, Zhang Xiu killed Cao Cao's eldest son and favorite bodyguard and he was allowed to surrender without penalty and even got rewarded.

Click to shrink...

I got that, being limited really won't chafe when it is the whole point of playing this guy.

 

[Leingod]

Oh. I remember this guy now! He's the loon that decided he was Emperor right after getting the Imperial Seal!

Click to shrink...

Well, not literally right when he got it (especially since IRL Sun Jian straight-up gave it to him), but definitely at a terrible time to do so. Not only was the emperor still sitting on the throne, but Yuan Shu himself was at best the 6th most powerful warlord and he was sandwiched between several strong warlords who had no reason to get behind the idea of this dipsh*t claiming the Dragon Throne.

Well, that and having a big army led by a general really good at fighting.

Click to shrink...

And control over the Son of Heaven and thus over imperial edicts. It really is amazing how many advantages Dong Zhuo had that he just squandered by being a tyrannical asshole. He had control of the emperor and the court, he controlled the capital and Yong Province (which he was the well-liked governor of) which meant he had command of the only real veteran army in the empire, and the alliance that formed against him literally fell apart without ever fighting a serious, decisive battle with him because they were too busy jockeying for power and playing a game of chicken waiting to see who move first in the hopes that they'd get killed and cut down the competition for who got to take Dong Zhuo's place.

Whoops. Yeah, it slipped my mind just how dysfunctional the Yuan clan were.

Click to shrink...

Yuan Shu once referred to his brother/cousin as "the family slave" because he was born to a lowly maid instead of a wife or even a concubine. So yeah, members of the Yuan clan are not required to stick together and present a united front. Though playing Cao Shuang to the increasingly senile/delusional Shao/Shu or to Shao's inadequate heirs by taking a de facto regent position on the strength of family ties is not beyond the realm of possibility.

I got that, being limited really won't chafe when it is the whole point of playing this guy.

Click to shrink...

Pretty much. It's an option that gives you a quick "in" to a warlord state, but a difficult one to hold and expand, as well as a strong potential for interactions with a lot of different canon characters. Not only is there Cao Cao's invasion and Liu Bei and his brothers coming to help, there's also Sun Ce contesting Tao Qian's de facto control of Yang Province that could be dealt with, and of course Lu Bu and Yuan Shu are going to be important factors as well. And once Kong Rong gets booted out of Beihai, Yuan Shao is right on the borders. Hell, it might be possible to kick Yuan Tan out in turn and take Beihai for yourself.

BTW, have you ever read Water Margin?

 

[A Nation's Virtue]

Any more Water Margin expies, such as Lu Zhi Shen or Li Kui if we go down the Song Jiang route?

 

[Leingod]

Any more Water Margin expies, such as Lu Zhi Shen or Li Kui if we go down the Song Jiang route?

Click to shrink...

That kind of brings up a question that also came up in @EmpirePlayer's quest. Namely, OCs yes or no? One argument goes that filling the place up with competent OCs makes little sense because wouldn't at least a good portion of these guys already be known and have done stuff if they were that good, since this is based on real history?

My reply is that it stopped being history when the Romance was first written and became historical fiction. It becomes even less historical when you start adapting it, especially when you create a new character to be the viewpoint. Obviously if this character existed in real life, there's a good chance they'd have done stuff that would have made it into the book, too. Besides, the alternative is to just make an entire force by poaching people from other forces and kingdoms.

So the answer is ultimately: yes. Because if I'm already going to go with one, why not go with more, especially since I'll already be having a lot of blanks to fill if you decide to create your own force?

That said, though they'll share the names and some of the capabilities and backgrounds, none of them will be 1:1 matches to their book portrayals. Otherwise the main character will be up there with Liu Bei in how questionable both his virtue and his competence are, and his closest friend will be a literal child murderer.

 

[Leingod]

Oh, and it turns out the Power-Up Kit for the video game Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI actually includes 50 characters from Water Margin (Chinese version only though) as bonus characters, with pictures and stats. I'll probably make adjustments to said stats, obviously, but it's a good starting point.

Spoiler: A few select portraits

Song Jiang


Wu Song


Yang Zhi


Liu Tang


Xie Zhen


Xie Bao