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Knight of Dandriss: Stone and Steel

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[X] Promote the arts - Spend Economy influence to attempt to produce additional Culture influence
[X] Patrol rail lines - Assign a unit to ensure the security of travellers in the rail lines. Current chance of encounter: LOW
[X] Patrol forest - Assign a unit to patrol the forests, seeking to eliminate dangerous wildlife or alien reavers before they become a problem. Current chance of encounter: MODERATE-HIGH
[X] Hold a major festival - Hold a major cultural event, with the potential to generate Economy and regain Culture spent. Requires Min. Culture Influence of 20, Costs a min. of 5 Culture Influence
[X] Nomad diplomacy - The nomads are currently camped outside your settlement and things are currently pretty good. Still, you can check up on them if you want.
[X] Study politics - Chance to advance Politician education
[X] Seek allies - Look for people among the community and in the wider polity
 
[X] veekie

For now, as his explanation is the best.

@Academia Nut Not to nag, but whenabouts does the character sheet update? I like to look it over, even if the Stress conditions are invisible till they take place.
 
Haha, we've not even had the cube a turn and people want to turn the damn thing off and not use a training action on willpower. Be interesting to see if the votes continue in that direction.
 
The wetting the bed dream sequence. Heh. Classic.

That mad income. Righteous.

Officer III. Unexpected.

I like this turn. I like this quest. I like you, Academia Nut!

Will vote in the morning, probably after bandwagon has been long established.

Only have one suggestion: moderate-major econ to culture influence trade.

If we can get a good ratio, and with the help of some additional influence from patrolling or other sources, a turn 5 hab is very much possible. Just keep enough economy for a turn 6 reactor afterwards.

Initial estimate suggests we can afford to trade 9 economy without risk, and likely more thanks to patrol income.
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
Haha, we've not even had the cube a turn and people want to turn the damn thing off and not use a training action on willpower. Be interesting to see if the votes continue in that direction.
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We have had it a turn, that's why we got benefit out of using it. The benefits seem nice so far but I don't want to push too far too early. That said, I'm not sure if getting a +2 is indicative of a good roll, or what stat training usually nets us, let alone what the synergy might be.

Actually, what would WP training look like IC? If we used the Cude at the same time we could just sleep more, but otherwise...All the RL resistance training I know of consists of 'torture until it doesn't seem as bad anymore', which the Cube trumps with the unexpectedness and - hopefully - increasing our ability to determine when something is off with our perceptions, ie dreams/hallucinations/psychic hoodoo.
 
killfr3nzy said:
We have had it a turn, that's why we got benefit out of using it. The benefits seem nice so far but I don't want to push too far too early. That said, I'm not sure if getting a +2 is indicative of a good roll, or what stat training usually nets us, let alone what the synergy might be.

Actually, what would WP training look like IC? If we used the Cude at the same time we could just sleep more, but otherwise...All the RL resistance training I know of consists of 'torture until it doesn't seem as bad anymore', which the Cube trumps with the unexpectedness and - hopefully - increasing our ability to determine when something is off with our perceptions, ie dreams/hallucinations/psychic hoodoo.
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We got the cube towards the end of last turn. That said we did get a fairly decent benefit out of it +2 willpower is fairly significant. It's still kind of galling to me to see people immediately voting to turn it off on the first turn where training with it is a possible action. Mostly I'm just disapointed because this is exactly what I feared might happen. That said it's early days in the voting yet so we'll see I guess.

Well if we go by the will power training techniques that Dia created in the previous quest thread based on the codex knowledge implanted in her cranium by the more or less neutral reaver then yea will power training is basically low tier torture designed to push tolerances and strengthen the psyche.

Given our protagonist has already garnered the attention of a reaver that wants to screw around with her we kind of need to push her willpower growth as much as we can.

@Academia Nut

Do the education traits still provide a +1 willpower boost per level as they did in the old system? I'm guessing they don't.
 
By the end of the year though, she was just feeling exhausted and worn out, but in a good sort of way.
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This doesn't even sound like a particular bad sign, and there is no real indication that use of the nightmare cube is responsible, rather than just being overworked. I think the exhaustion is down to taking a bunch of event triggered actions in addition to our normal contingent of actions plus one bonus personal action.
Also this seems to show the cube hasn't been problematic so far:
Her dreams continued to be stressful under the influence of the cube, but she was coping well enough
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The intended use for a nightmare cube seems to be a full turn in conjunction with willpower training, which we haven't even come remotely close to so far. Taking a year off between full uses might make sense depending on how stressful it turns out to be, taking a year "off" before the first real use doesn't.
 
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[X] Promote the arts - Spend Economy influence to attempt to produce additional Culture influence
[X] Nomad diplomacy - The nomads are currently camped outside your settlement and things are currently pretty good. Still, you can check up on them if you want.
[X] Patrol rail lines - Assign a unit to ensure the security of travellers in the rail lines. Current chance of encounter: LOW
[X] Patrol forest - Assign a unit to patrol the forests, seeking to eliminate dangerous wildlife or alien reavers before they become a problem. Current chance of encounter: MODERATE-HIGH
[X] Hold a major festival - Hold a major cultural event, with the potential to generate Economy and regain Culture spent. Requires Min. Culture Influence of 20, Costs a min. of 5 Culture Influence

[X] Throw a party - Hold a major social gathering
[X] Study Willpower - Chance to advance selected skill. Specialty stats are easier than secondary stats are easier than primary stats

[X] Continue using Nightmare Cube this turn.

Can we actually hold a festival?
We only have 12 culture, I think we need 20 to do this?

And Yay!
It worked out in the end!
 
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[X] Disable Nightmare Cube this turn.
[X] Promote the arts - Spend Economy influence to attempt to produce additional Culture influence
[X] Nomad diplomacy - The nomads are currently camped outside your settlement and things are currently pretty good. Still, you can check up on them if you want.
[X] Patrol rail lines - Assign a unit to ensure the security of travellers in the rail lines. Current chance of encounter: LOW
[X] Patrol forest - Assign a unit to patrol the forests, seeking to eliminate dangerous wildlife or alien reavers before they become a problem. Current chance of encounter: MODERATE-HIGH x2
[X] Study war - Chance to advance Officer education
[X] Throw a party - Hold a major social gathering

Why would we want to keep working when we feel exhausted? That's how you screw yourself up good.
And then skip the action that gives added benefits when performed sequentially.
 
Nix said:
This doesn't even sound like a particular bad sign, and there is no real indication that use of the nightmare cube is responsible, rather than just being overworked. I think the exhaustion is down to taking a bunch of event triggered actions in addition to our normal contingent of actions plus one bonus personal action.
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It's not whether the cube is at fault. She's stressed, and overworked. The cube inflicts a certain amount of stress on top. When you get stressed enough you manifest negative traits. We have a warning sign there already.

As we can't really choose to stop getting stress from other stuff, we ease off on the cube, freshen up, and then go at it again when the stress has gone down.
 
Nix said:
This doesn't even sound like a particular bad sign, and there is no real indication that use of the nightmare cube is responsible, rather than just being overworked. I think the exhaustion is down to taking a bunch of event triggered actions in addition to our normal contingent of actions plus one bonus personal action.
Also this seems to show the cube hasn't been problematic so far:

The intended use for a nightmare cube seems to be a full turn in conjunction with willpower training, which we haven't even come remotely close to so far. Taking a year off between full uses might make sense depending on how stressful it turns out to be, taking a year "off" before the first real use doesn't.
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Indeed.

Academia Nut said:
Also, as a note there are certain traits that require multiple applications of the power to get the right effect.

The most obvious one is the Imbecile through to Genius Track. If you want to move from Quick to Genius that is only 1 application, but if you want to move from Imbecile to Genius that is Imbecile->Slow->Nothing->Quick->Genius or four applications needed, meaning that the last one will be at a -30 penalty assuming no failures along the way, either in manifesting or the roll not working out.

I may have some more complex and in-depth trait trees prepared because of this.
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Am I the only one sad that we're not going to see the outcome of this for ages?

Also @Academia Nut

Can our protagonist pick up a third education?
 
[X] Promote the arts - Spend Economy influence to attempt to produce additional Culture influence
[X] Nomad diplomacy - The nomads are currently camped outside your settlement and things are currently pretty good. Still, you can check up on them if you want.
[X] Patrol rail lines - Assign a unit to ensure the security of travellers in the rail lines. Current chance of encounter: LOW
[X] Patrol forest x2 - Assign a unit to patrol the forests, seeking to eliminate dangerous wildlife or alien reavers before they become a problem. Current chance of encounter: MODERATE-HIGH

[X] Throw a party - Hold a major social gathering
[X] Study Willpower - Chance to advance selected skill. Specialty stats are easier than secondary stats are easier than primary stats

[X] Continue using Nightmare Cube this turn.

Going off script for the turn's favored choices (because @tenchifew made a good point about the festival being a technical lock-out vote).
veekie said:
It's not whether the cube is at fault. She's stressed, and overworked. The cube inflicts a certain amount of stress on top. When you get stressed enough you manifest negative traits. We have a warning sign there already.

As we can't really choose to stop getting stress from other stuff, we ease off on the cube, freshen up, and then go at it again when the stress has gone down.
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In my opinion, due to the fact that we haven't seen any willpower in education traits, we just got +2 willpower from the passive cube training, which implies that not only was the roll fairly high, but it was probably a minor critical success or full critical. Even if all use of the cube, regardless of check result, leads to a -5 to -10 on said check for each consecutive year in use, I feel confident enough that we have a (conservative) 50% chance, to a (hopeful) 90% chance or greater, to not pull a permanent negative stress trait if used one more time.
 
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Powerofmind said:
In my opinion, due to the fact that we haven't seen any willpower in education traits, we just got +2 willpower from the passive cube training, which implies that not only was the roll fairly high, but it was probably a minor critical success or full critical. Even if all use of the cube, regardless of check result, leads to a -5 to -10 on said check for each consecutive year in use, I feel confident enough that we have a (conservative) 50% chance, to a (hopeful) 80% chance, to not pull a permanent negative stress trait if used one more time.
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Whether we rolled high or low doesn't matter.

It's not "Roll until you fail something". Even success can exhaust you.
Working on while exhausted is liable to backfire even if you do it right. You can see perfectly regular stress and exhaustion eating at Dia's health and sanity previously, and this isn't any different even if a device is adding to it.

You know what happens to the athlete who works to the point of exhaustion, and then keeps going? They don't get super strong. They just damage themselves
 
Powerofmind said:
[X] Promote the arts - Spend Economy influence to attempt to produce additional Culture influence
[X] Nomad diplomacy - The nomads are currently camped outside your settlement and things are currently pretty good. Still, you can check up on them if you want.
[X] Patrol rail lines - Assign a unit to ensure the security of travellers in the rail lines. Current chance of encounter: LOW
[X] Patrol forest x2 - Assign a unit to patrol the forests, seeking to eliminate dangerous wildlife or alien reavers before they become a problem. Current chance of encounter: MODERATE-HIGH

[X] Throw a party - Hold a major social gathering
[X] Study Willpower - Chance to advance selected skill. Specialty stats are easier than secondary stats are easier than primary stats

[X] Continue using Nightmare Cube this turn.

Going off script for the turn's favored choices (because @tenchifew made a good point about the festival being a technical lock-out vote).

In my opinion, due to the fact that we haven't seen any willpower in education traits, we just got +2 willpower from the passive cube training, which implies that not only was the roll fairly high, but it was probably a minor critical success or full critical. Even if all use of the cube, regardless of check result, leads to a -5 to -10 on said check for each consecutive year in use, I feel confident enough that we have a (conservative) 50% chance, to a (hopeful) 90% chance or greater, to not pull a permanent negative stress trait if used one more time.
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The survivor education trait does have a willpower bonus. Just as a point of order.
Academia Nut said:
[] Survivor II (+3 Willpower, +2 Intrigue)
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Edit: Might be worth looking into, in conjuction with nomad diplomacy. Of course doing that would be competing against much more pressing actions and it would spread our focus too thin.
 
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[X] Disable Nightmare Cube this turn.
[X] Study Willpower
[X] Study war - Chance to advance Officer education

Sustained efforts, guys. We decided not to do the party thing, so pick something you'll stick to.
 
veekie said:
Whether we rolled high or low doesn't matter.

It's not "Roll until you fail something". Even success can exhaust you.
Working on while exhausted is liable to backfire even if you do it right. You can see perfectly regular stress and exhaustion eating at Dia's health and sanity previously, and this isn't any different even if a device is adding to it.

You know what happens to the athlete who works to the point of exhaustion, and then keeps going? They don't get super strong. They just damage themselves
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I had already accounted for automatic stress penalties. The fact that we rolled particularly high indicates that we haven't accrued additional penalties on top of any inherent ones.

And bringing Dia into this when it still seems relatively clear that she wasn't just 'stressed out' but still psychically screwed up even in the new original work doesn't really help make your point, but detracts from it.

Finally, arguing that we've already reached the point of exhaustion is not entirely true. The comment that Ella is exhausted comes immediately following her dealings with the expoitative sex industry and stupid children, as well as being followed by comments on her officer training. If anything, I would take that as a subtle indicator that she has gone pretty close to her age limit for her education, and that we can't push it any further for now.

In comparison, the fairly self-contained cube paragraph calls it 'stressful, but coping' and apparently more along the lines of being embarrassing and trippy than really scary or hard to deal with. That doesn't particularly sound like someone at the end of their rope.
 
Powerofmind said:
I had already accounted for automatic stress penalties. The fact that we rolled particularly high indicates that we haven't accrued additional penalties on top of any inherent ones.

And bringing Dia into this when it still seems relatively clear that she wasn't just 'stressed out' but still psychically screwed up even in the new original work doesn't really help make your point, but detracts from it.

Finally, arguing that we've already reached the point of exhaustion is not entirely true. The comment that Ella is exhausted comes immediately following her dealings with the expoitative sex industry and stupid children, as well as being followed by comments on her officer training. If anything, I would take that as a subtle indicator that she has gone pretty close to her age limit for her education, and that we can't push it any further for now.

In comparison, the fairly self-contained cube paragraph calls it 'stressful, but coping' and apparently more along the lines of being embarrassing and trippy than really scary or hard to deal with. That doesn't particularly sound like someone at the end of their rope.
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I think a negative willpower trait will manifest before the end of the rope.
 
George said:
I think a negative willpower trait will manifest before the end of the rope.
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This has already been confirmed. We'd pick up Stressed(-1 to everything, including health) first, which would force us to acquire negative traits later on.

Stressed is also the first direct evidence of the effects of overwork and exhaustion, before that all we'd get is narrative hints.
You CAN actually die of stress, so that's the literal end of the rope.
 
veekie said:
Whether we rolled high or low doesn't matter.

It's not "Roll until you fail something". Even success can exhaust you.
Working on while exhausted is liable to backfire even if you do it right. You can see perfectly regular stress and exhaustion eating at Dia's health and sanity previously, and this isn't any different even if a device is adding to it.

You know what happens to the athlete who works to the point of exhaustion, and then keeps going? They don't get super strong. They just damage themselves
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Sure but you're suggesting we give up and rest before we even spend a single full turn using the cube. That's crazy.

This is exactly the kind of nonsense I feared could happen, you also straight up ripped out context to make your point earlier.
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
Sure but you're suggesting we give up and rest before we even spend a single full turn using the cube. That's crazy.

This is exactly the kind of nonsense I feared could happen, you also straight up ripped out context to make your point earlier.
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[01:07] <AcademiaNut> You guys of course picked the most likely upgrade option to result in picking up Stressed or Depressed, which can transition into other vices either consciously or through more willpower failures
[01:09] <AcademiaNut> Considering that not using the cube is going to result in people arguing that you should have just picked up one of the other options, so it would be a waste to not keep going...
[01:10] <veekieislurking> so we got the first year of training credited already or?
[01:11] <AcademiaNut> Yes. It's a free action to start or stop using it as well

We already have a full year of training and a full year of stress.
 
George said:
I think a negative willpower trait will manifest before the end of the rope.
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Fortunately we're nowhere near that point. The most notable dreams we've even had have been 'this has all played out for me before when I was dumber and younger' and 'this inception bedwetting dream is really weird and privately embarrassing'. I don't know about you, but even if I actually pissed the bed every night for a month, I probably wouldn't start chewing off nails and constantly stressing over how hard life is (but I would stop drinking water before I go to sleep). On the contrary, since Ella can definitively know where the dreams begin and end (after the fact, at least), they're nothing more than idle curiosities when she wakes up, and she apparently has been getting restful, if disturbed, sleep despite the cube's best efforts, or we'd be given notice of tiredness and lethargy, even as a passing phrase inside another sentence.
veekie said:
Stressed is also the first direct evidence of the effects of overwork and exhaustion, before that all we'd get is narrative hints.
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I don't see what we have as sufficient narrative hinting that the cube is stressing us out enough that we're either certain or even statistically probable to get Stressed by using it again. I do see that when we spend the entire year training for X, dealing with the fallout of Y, and searching for Z, we're less than energized at the end of the year, especially when we didn't try to unwind by doing anything Ella considers particularly fun.

Just throw a rave or something this year to blow off steam. See how stressed we end up after that.
 
The danger isn't JUST from the dreams. Stress is still stress. This was a shitty year for her even before the cube, and even rolling well on the cube didn't help that much.
 
[01:07] <AcademiaNut> You guys of course picked the most likely upgrade option to result in picking up Stressed or Depressed, which can transition into other vices either consciously or through more willpower failures
[01:09] <AcademiaNut> Considering that not using the cube is going to result in people arguing that you should have just picked up one of the other options, so it would be a waste to not keep going...

veekie said:
The danger isn't JUST from the dreams. Stress is still stress. This was a shitty year for her even before the cube, and even rolling well on the cube didn't help that much.
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Given the vice and virtue system we operate under this is a good thing especially as cube use is always paired with a +1 willpower gain per year. Gaining vices means that if/when we flip them to virtues we can grab the mitigated versions of them like focused fury and the combo traits later. More than that from what AN said we're essentially one turn of use in so I'm not particularly worried.

We should pair the cube use with a willpower training action this turn and then turn it off the next to give Ella a rest.
 
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