ISOT ideas
- Thread starter Anchises
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Define "prosper" and "collapse"
Anything even a1/10 as big as the roman empire would be able to sustain itself if cut off from the outside, but with no outside pressures they'll either stagnate or (more likely IMO) grow to the point central control breaks down.
As far as ISOTing a fantastic setting goes, I'm reminded of the end of the old Andre Norton novel Operation Time Search which ends with the lost continents Atlantis and Mu appearing due to time travel shenanigans. Something like that could be pretty interesting; while a sunken Atlantis existing in modern times isn't that rare an idea, having a non-sunken version show up is much more unusual. The exact results would depend on which version is chosen of course.
As for religious people, if either side of the crossover is a setting like D&D where the gods are active and routinely provide supernatural benefits or powers then that'll create quite the crisis of faith (and plenty of potential for in-story drama). It's not a good look when your religion is the only one that has no actual evidence for it; on the other hand Christianity for example traditionally condemns the occult as evil. And then there's the fact that the people from the more fantastic setting probably find all the insistence on the importance of faith from the more mundane one to be pretty bizarre; no need for faith when the god grants spells and maybe even makes the occasional personal appearance after all.
Atheist: "Aliens did it!" Heck, that's even canon in the Ring of Fire series.
As for religious people, if either side of the crossover is a setting like D&D where the gods are active and routinely provide supernatural benefits or powers then that'll create quite the crisis of faith (and plenty of potential for in-story drama). It's not a good look when your religion is the only one that has no actual evidence for it; on the other hand Christianity for example traditionally condemns the occult as evil. And then there's the fact that the people from the more fantastic setting probably find all the insistence on the importance of faith from the more mundane one to be pretty bizarre; no need for faith when the god grants spells and maybe even makes the occasional personal appearance after all.
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Talking about fictional ISOTs, one that I've always though could be pretty interesting is ISOTing The Abyss from Made In Abyss into our world
For those of you that don't know, The Abyss is a gigantic chasm that goes double the depth of the Marianas Trench and still continues, with it's depth currently unknown in the Made In Abyss universe. It's divided upon seven known layers (once again, nobody knows if there are more layer deep down), each housing it's own self contained ecosystem full of fauna and flora.
Littered through the abyss are ancient artifacts known as Relics, that range from being mostly curiosities to being able to reshape the world.
The ISOT I imagine would occur over 2000 years before the events of the main series, to prevent stuff from Made In Abyss besides the Abyss itself to be ISOTed along with it.
As for the time it would be discovered, was thinking around the 16th-17th century, to go along for the whole Age of Exploration craze. Location is undecided as of now, as I've been thinking of either the South Atlantic or the Polynesia.
I think the discovery of the Abyss would have an enormous affect once it's treasures and resources start to get unearthed, just like in canon MiA, could see various nations like Spain, England and others fighting for it.
Also can see it's effects in theology, not only cause I can easily see the Abyss being seen as the entrance to Hell or something similar by Christians, but the development of a faith based around it like it happened in canon MiA could be possible. Certainly could complicate the already clusterfuck of religions that's going on at the time.
For those of you that don't know, The Abyss is a gigantic chasm that goes double the depth of the Marianas Trench and still continues, with it's depth currently unknown in the Made In Abyss universe. It's divided upon seven known layers (once again, nobody knows if there are more layer deep down), each housing it's own self contained ecosystem full of fauna and flora.
Littered through the abyss are ancient artifacts known as Relics, that range from being mostly curiosities to being able to reshape the world.
The ISOT I imagine would occur over 2000 years before the events of the main series, to prevent stuff from Made In Abyss besides the Abyss itself to be ISOTed along with it.
As for the time it would be discovered, was thinking around the 16th-17th century, to go along for the whole Age of Exploration craze. Location is undecided as of now, as I've been thinking of either the South Atlantic or the Polynesia.
I think the discovery of the Abyss would have an enormous affect once it's treasures and resources start to get unearthed, just like in canon MiA, could see various nations like Spain, England and others fighting for it.
Also can see it's effects in theology, not only cause I can easily see the Abyss being seen as the entrance to Hell or something similar by Christians, but the development of a faith based around it like it happened in canon MiA could be possible. Certainly could complicate the already clusterfuck of religions that's going on at the time.
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Sounds like a very interesting ISOT, but this I find very unlikely given the time frame and location you have it being discovered. I can see whatever people were living in the area having the Abyss take a centeral role in their religeon, but that won't have any more effect on the world at large than the Goddess Pele does.
If there are riches to be found there then no major religeous group will associate it with hell, not unless they believe they have no hope of gaining access to those riches (what cynical? me?), and European culture of the Early modern period would not IMO support forming a religeon based on a geographical feature, even one as impressive as you describe.
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Right, forgot to explain some stuff, so here comes:
- There exists a forcefield in the Abyss. As of now in canon no one knows where it comes from, but it's effects are more than noticed: it manages to absorb light and nutrients and bring them all over the Abyss, which is why even the 6th layer over 10 milea underground has light and flora.
However, it also has a more insidious effect (even if very few people are aware the forcefield is at fault): The Strain of Ascent, or more vulgarly known as The Curse of the Abyss.
Basically, every time someone tries to ascend from the depth, their body is hit by several negative effects, that are worse the deeper one's trying rise from:
1st Layer = Diziness and Nausea
2nd Layer = Very heavy nausea, Limbs can stop working and very painful headaches
3rd Layer = Hallucinations (both visual and auditory) and incredible sense of vertigo
4th Layer = Inmense body pain, bleeding from every orifice in the body
5th Layer = Complete sensory and proprioception blockage, closing your mouth you can end up breaking your teeth, swinging an arm tear apart your muscles and even bones etc
6th Layer = Death or Loss of Humanity
7th Layer = Certain and absolute Death
It's also mentioned that the Abyss has a very powerful call, one beyond simple "Lure of the Unknown" that can turn into obsession or even insanity for the most susceptible and adventurous, being capable to overpower friendships, love, maternal feelings or even self preservation.
And to top it off, time slow downs the further down you go. A week in the 5th layer can equal couple months at the surface, and one year at the 6th layer equals ten at the surface.
And that's just what's been proven in canon. In canon, there's a disease that strikes randomly at a person's birthday that's pretty much spilled out to be caused by The Abyss, and that's without talking it's possible effect and influence on souls.
Taking all that into account, I think it would be very easy for a lot of people to write off The Abyss as Hell, or the entrance to it
- The Relics and riches can be unearthed, of course, but to get them to the surface you'll need to survive the incredibly dangerous landscape of the Abyss, monsters and apex predators, and the Curse, so not an easy endeavor, but doable
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That's interesting, but
1)People are not likely to attribute that to supernatural reasons.
2)It will take a lot of time and study to find out this much, which makes it even less likely anyone will assume supernatural causes.
1)People are not likely to attribute that to supernatural reasons.
2)It will take a lot of time and study to find out this much, which makes it even less likely anyone will assume supernatural causes.
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1) Why not? I'll admit early Modern Age ain't something I'm very knowledgeable about, but I don't think things like the Strain of Ascension and it's specificness could pinned down with shit scientifically known at the time. Hell, the Steam/Diesel punkish society of Made In Abyss still hasn't figured it out yet beyond some select people
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Because they were moving away from "anythng we don't understand is magic/supernatural" and towards "there's no such thing as magic". Added to that nothing in your description sounded anymore supernatural than seasickness, altitude sickness or radiation sickness.
And people in the 17th century (or for that matter 19th century) had no idea what caused Consumption (i.e Tuberculousis) or how to cure it, but that didn't make people assume it was a curse.
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I didn't know seasickness caused you to lose your humanity
Jokes aside, sure, but the difference is that the Strain of Ascension is different in each layer in a very specific way AKA it's not the same depending on where you're ascending from, hell, depending on which part from the layer you're ascending, it can be better or worse. And the fact that it doesn't spread or that it stops after you stop ascending I feel would make it easy to determine as not being a disease like the plague or the flu
And that's without mentioning the time displacement or the Birthday Disease thing.
Maybe I was exaggerating a bit, but I still think the Abyss would easily be demonized by some people
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Then you've never dealt with someone really seasickI didn't know seasickness caused you to lose your humanity
Sure, it's obvious it's something relating to the Abyss, but unless someone notes that prayer, or saints relic or something help prevent it I don't believe many people would attribute it to the supernatural as opposed to a natural phenomena they don't understand like altitude sickness or the bends, which I believe were known phenomena by this point.
Some people? Sure. Just like cameraes and cars were, but most people, and especially most people in positions of power would not, and in 17th century europe, or colonies of european powers publicly claiming a religeous belief that the people in authority said was false is a good way to end up dead, or at least lose all your property.
SpiritFluid
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Dude in the 16th-17th century, the best assumption people had for what caused disease, period, was either Miasma Theory or the Four Humours, and germ theory was out the window by way of "it hadn't been introduced yet, Also People Just Threw Their Shit Out A Window To Clean The Place Up", you are putting far more faith into a rationalist idea that didn't really exist at that time and probably wouldn't matter much in conjunction next to "The Giant Abyss That Looks Like A Yawning Void At Surface Level And Which Is Filled With Riches But Also Genuine Magic Curses". I'll grant you they would overlook initial steps, but if anyone got deeper and somehow survived, that shit would well and truly feared with all the force of God.
This isn't the Renaissance, and Rationality and Superstition are not somehow things wholly outside another on a venn diagram, not now and certainly not then, and your assumptions base themselves a lot more strongly on a Europe and idea of Europe that flat out doesn't exist yet at the time of what's being discussed.
… Which is probably as much as should be said, because I feel like if this ISOT idea is pursued any further, then it'd be better to make it its own thread.
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Yes, and they conducted scientific experiments to prove their theories. that's my point. They might not know why something happened, but they were not going to assume a supernatural reason, not without a pile of evidence to support it, or a political/material gain for claiming it.
Say what? You said it's 16th 17th century, the Renaissance is generally treated as starting in the 14th-15th century, by the 17th century we're talking about the Early Modern period, AFTER the Renaissance. Was there superstition? Definitely. Was it mostly treated as superstition? Also yes. While this period was rife with religious wars, witch hunts, etc... those had strong material and political reasons behind them, and their very nature tended to make people more cynical about claims of the supernatural.
I can see some people who actually go into the Abyss deciding it wasn't natural, but between the fact that saying so in public would get them in a lot of trouble, and that most people wouldn't believe them, I can't see it spreading or having any more effect on the world than miners telling stories of Kubolds did historically.
If you like, but this is the thread for discussing ISOT ideas, so it seems to fit here just fine, at least until someone actaully starts writing it, and possibly for a bit afterwards as well.
SpiritFluid
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For some reason my mind gapped out and went, "Oh Yeah, The Renaissance. That was the 1700s". My apologies on that.
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Now that I've had some time to think about it, I feel this is actually closer to what would happen, with a hint of an ironic twist
The Abyss I feel would be initially probs just seen as highly unusual but natural, but once information on it's lower layers it's brought up, I think the theories and fears that this IS actually the entrance to Hell or at least something supernatural will gain far more traction.
After all, find a rational explanation to the time dilatation or this
Or
The fact that you need actual human sacrifice to advance to the 6th Layer
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The fact that people can't come up witha rational explanation for X, does not mean the y'll assume it has a supernatural reason, and the more valuable the Abyss is, the more political pressure there'll be for the theologians and church leaders to conclude it had no connection to Hell and declare it completely mundane. That won't, of course stop local superstitions about it, but it will stop them from spreading.
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Oh I know, that's why there would still be expeditions and explorations of the Abyss and somethint like Orth would end up being established.
The Abyss is just too valuable.
What I was thinking is that certain sects and branches withing Christianity would write the Abyss off as demonic, not the main Catholic Church or Protestant Movement. And taking into account just how much religion was kindle fire in that epoch, that certainly wouldn't help.
The Abyss becomes another of the bullet points that branching faiths use to champion themselves/delegitimize others
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This would require them to:
1)Believe they have no hope of gaining access to the riches involved. i.e be too politically weak to matter on any large scale.
2)Not have many members working in the area, or otherwise benefiting indirectly from the Abyss.
3)Have enough information about it for them to conclude it's demonic.
The combination of those three would be so incredibly rare as to be practically non-existent. I can see some small cults claiming this, but there are always small cults making ridiculous claims rejected by everyone else.
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- Busan Metropolitan City, Republic of Korea
Anyone ever contemplated an idea about ISOTing modern agronomical knowledge, and possibly plants, to ancient civilizations?
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Just the knowledge? With nothing else? I can't imagine it having much effect.
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- Busan Metropolitan City, Republic of Korea
I assumed that advanced knowledge of soil nutrition and conservation would be a great improvement by themselves.
How about the seeds and tubers, as well as livestock? Assuming that they all come with the necessary knowledge on how to properly raise and breed them.
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Honestly think we've circled too much through this argument, feel it's better to move on.
Now, switching to another thing, the location of the Abyss would certainly influence who discovers it first and so who explores it first.
Since I'm more and more liking the idea of it being located in the Polynesia, there certainly would have been Polynesian discovery of it, multiple times I imagine, although I doubt they could move pass beyond it's Edge, much less succesfully move in the First Layer. That's already home to giant spiders, giant predatory birds that can mimic sounds a la parror, and some of the Abyss's nastiest flying beings occasionally come up to enjoy some snacks. I imagine any Polynesian people that settled in it would end up leaving cause, well, it's fucking dangerous. Would leave it's mark on their beliefs though.
As for the Europeans, I think it would be a toss up between the Spanish and the Dutch for who reaches it first, although once news of the riches inside start circulating, I think all colonial empires would want it under their control. I can easily see the Polynesia and it's surroundings to become one of the most contested places on Earth as the desire to build colonies that can grant easy access to the Abyss would be a priority (much easier to manage it from say Tuvalu than Spain and all that)
And that would be before Relics start getting unearthed. Once shit like Everlasting Gunpowder, Ancient Weapons of incredibly advanced abilities, laser weapons or even objects that can stop time, now that's going to start a craze that'll leave gold crazes as child's play
They instantly lose all the slaves and loot they gained from conquering. On the other hand, by 117 CE the Empire had more-or-less territorially stabilized, so that may not collapse it.
The people would probably be more-or-less OK whatever happens to the structure of government; the Roman Empire is big enough to be quite self-sufficient at second century level of technology (access to some luxuries from distant parts of the world will be lost, but that's about it). The biggest danger to them will be the Empire violently self-destructing (after which they'd pick the pieces and possibly often be better off without it).
There will probably be some expansion of the Empire into the empty lands surrounding it, but I think maybe not very much. Empty lands won't have much wealth, there's nothing for the Roman ruling classes to plunder there, and thinly populated territory will be difficult to control and tax. The Empire didn't expand much into northern Europe, and the empty lands beyond the Empire's borders in this scenario have even less wealth.
On the other hand, I think people will move into the empty lands surrounding the Empire in significant numbers, often to escape the Empire's control. Rather than expanding, the Empire may end up expending a lot of effort trying to keep people in.
By 117 CE Christianity was already established, seems likely the Empire still Christianizes eventually if nothing derails the process.
Long-term, there are no barbarians to invade the Empire, though uncontrolled colonization of the empty lands around the Empire is going to create potential invaders sooner or later.
Interesting scenario.
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And the civil war within the empire. The Romans were always their own worst enemies.
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Not just their beliefs, the culture that formed in Polenesia did so because there were no dangerous animals to hunt or protect people from, and thus no hunter/warrior culture.
Who reaches it first isn't that important, who realizes it's worth fighting for first would matter some but colonies were traded back and forth multiple times (sometimes even peacefully) and the Abyss seems large enough to have multiple colonies around it from different nations (assuming none of them had enough force available to claim the entire area, however I think the discovery and eploitation of the Abyss would go in several stages:
1)Traders/explorers in the region would hear fantastic stories about it, and relay them home but they'd be taken as fantastical stories, no more belivable than any other tall tales.
2)Europeans find proof of the giant animals/birds (this will result in VERY different view of Polenesia by Europeans than the historical "island paradise" views.
3)Some European actually reaches it and brings back more belivable accounts of it and possibly some trophies.
4)Additional expeditions to explore the Abyss and bring back hunting trophies are launched, some more successful than others but none out of the belief there are any great riches (other than knowledge and fame) to be found there.
5)Some of the riches of the Abyss are discovered and more people start taking an interest in the area.
6)The great colonial powers decide to take over.