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In Another World: Isekai Story Creative Discussion and Idea Thread

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The Name of Love said:
What's fanfiction copypaste?
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Most bog-standard isekai is basically indistinguishable from self-insert fanfiction, except that the world setting is superficially original. Even the "game-world" aspects of the settings serve to emphasize the underlying artificiality of the contrast, much as how in SI fanfiction the SI character feels more "real" in that the "person from reality vs. setting from known-to-the-audience-to-be-fictional" dynamic exists.

Overcoming this gap of artificiality in the setting is Step 1 in creating a readable story.
 
DezoPenguin said:
Most bog-standard isekai is basically indistinguishable from self-insert fanfiction, except that the world setting is superficially original. Even the "game-world" aspects of the settings serve to emphasize the underlying artificiality of the contrast, much as how in SI fanfiction the SI character feels more "real" in that the "person from reality vs. setting from known-to-the-audience-to-be-fictional" dynamic exists.

Overcoming this gap of artificiality in the setting is Step 1 in creating a readable story.
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Not only that, most bog standard LNs themselves are basically Fifty Shading what was popular before.

One guy goes "Familiar of Zero but she's the servant! I'll call it Other World Master" and then if it gets popular enough, another guy goes "Other World Master but he has a harem cause he's Master of all the girls somehow! I'll call it My Harem in the Other World is filled with Slaves!" and so on.

You can kinda see it with western stuff. Look at the surge in superhero stuff post-Worm on webfictionguide before it got overtaken by LN.
 
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DezoPenguin said:
Most bog-standard isekai is basically indistinguishable from self-insert fanfiction, except that the world setting is superficially original. Even the "game-world" aspects of the settings serve to emphasize the underlying artificiality of the contrast, much as how in SI fanfiction the SI character feels more "real" in that the "person from reality vs. setting from known-to-the-audience-to-be-fictional" dynamic exists.

Overcoming this gap of artificiality in the setting is Step 1 in creating a readable story.
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To me, having video game elements only makes sense if the setting is an actual video game. Otherwise, yeah it does create an artificial feeling.

For me, good writing is what you need to prevent certain characters from feeling more "real" than others.



TreeFrogSoup said:
Not only that, most bog standard LNs themselves are basically Fifty Shading hat was popular.

One guy goes "Familiar of Zero but she's the servant! I'll call it Other World Master" and then if it gets popular enough, another guy goes "Other World Master but he has a harem cause he's Master of all the girls somehow! I'll call it My Harem in the Other World is filled with Slaves!" and so on.
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Those two actually do sound interesting. The problem with FoZ wasn't the premise, but the crap execution (Louise and Saitou were horrible characters, I found both unlikable).

I'm going to be trying to come up with my own story idea myself soon. Try my hand at a few things.
 
TreeFrogSoup said:
Not only that, most bog standard LNs themselves are basically Fifty Shading what was popular before.

One guy goes "Familiar of Zero but she's the servant! I'll call it Other World Master" and then if it gets popular enough, another guy goes "Other World Master but he has a harem cause he's Master of all the girls somehow! I'll call it My Harem in the Other World is filled with Slaves!" and so on.

You can kinda see it with western stuff. Look at the surge in superhero stuff post-Worm on webfictionguide before it got overtaken by LN.
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I just remembered another peeve of mine.

When a setting has slavery to add harem members. Like, the protagonist not only never does anything about it ever, but doesn't even think about doing anything despite being OP, because reasons. And the protagonist ends up with a slave, and offers to free the slave, but the slave doesn't want to be free because she wants to be the MC's slave or something, even though nothing's preventing her from being friends with the MC as a free person. Or how she falls in love with the MC because the MC slightly treats her like a person.

I want to see a WN where the protagonist frees a slave, and the slave accepts her freedom and leaves him on good terms because she has her own life outside of the MC. Or where the MC has to take a slave because of magic slave seal shenanigans, and then several volumes later he's developed an anti slave seal magic which he uses on her before selling it to others. Or even where the relationship between an MC and his slave plateaus at mutual respect, despite the slave being an attractive female and the MC being a decent person.
 
aattss said:
I just remembered another peeve of mine.

When a setting has slavery to add harem members. Like, the protagonist not only never does anything about it ever, but doesn't even think about doing anything despite being OP, because reasons. And the protagonist ends up with a slave, and offers to free the slave, but the slave doesn't want to be free because she wants to be the MC's slave or something, even though nothing's preventing her from being friends with the MC as a free person. Or how she falls in love with the MC because the MC slightly treats her like a person.

I want to see a WN where the protagonist frees a slave, and the slave accepts her freedom and leaves him on good terms because she has her own life outside of the MC. Or where the MC has to take a slave because of magic slave seal shenanigans, and then several volumes later he's developed an anti slave seal magic which he uses on her before selling it to others. Or even where the relationship between an MC and his slave plateaus at mutual respect, despite the slave being an attractive female and the MC being a decent person.
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Yes, that can happen. But what if the protagonist frees the slave and then she decides to stay with him because it is advantageous to her? There are plenty of stories in which manipulative women end up with the man in the end (if she doesn't end up ruining him).
 
aattss said:
I just remembered another peeve of mine.

When a setting has slavery to add harem members. Like, the protagonist not only never does anything about it ever, but doesn't even think about doing anything despite being OP, because reasons. And the protagonist ends up with a slave, and offers to free the slave, but the slave doesn't want to be free because she wants to be the MC's slave or something, even though nothing's preventing her from being friends with the MC as a free person. Or how she falls in love with the MC because the MC slightly treats her like a person.

I want to see a WN where the protagonist frees a slave, and the slave accepts her freedom and leaves him on good terms because she has her own life outside of the MC. Or where the MC has to take a slave because of magic slave seal shenanigans, and then several volumes later he's developed an anti slave seal magic which he uses on her before selling it to others. Or even where the relationship between an MC and his slave plateaus at mutual respect, despite the slave being an attractive female and the MC being a decent person.
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Unfortunately, miserable fetishes are miserable fetishes. :(

The ideas mentioned in your second paragraph are interesting, but they're also basically reactions to the problem outlined in the first paragraph, in that slavery keeps showing up in these. Some things are just, I think, better left out completely than modified to be less problematic.

(I would like to see more of "main character male and main character female have a relationship of respect and friendship instead of the desire, whether acted upon or not, to mate like bunnies," though. Bonus points if the writer doesn't have to make one of them gay to do it.)
 
DezoPenguin said:
Unfortunately, miserable fetishes are miserable fetishes. :(

The ideas mentioned in your second paragraph are interesting, but they're also basically reactions to the problem outlined in the first paragraph, in that slavery keeps showing up in these. Some things are just, I think, better left out completely than modified to be less problematic.

(I would like to see more of "main character male and main character female have a relationship of respect and friendship instead of the desire, whether acted upon or not, to mate like bunnies," though. Bonus points if the writer doesn't have to make one of them gay to do it.)
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Why are we talking about "problematic"?
 
The Name of Love said:
Yes, that can happen. But what if the protagonist frees the slave and then she decides to stay with him because it is advantageous to her? There are plenty of stories in which manipulative women end up with the man in the end (if she doesn't end up ruining him).
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That doesn't happen in shallow WN, because it's like Mary Sues where people either completely fall in love with them or are morons condemmed for not liking the MC at best.

If anything, as with all harems, everyone wanting to have sex with the OP protagonist doesn't really break my suspension of disbelief. It's broken when said women want to have sex with the MC because they're all legitimately completely in love with and devoted to the MC with no motivation from material gain or any other form of self interest.
 
DezoPenguin said:
Are you objecting to the word itself, to the underlying contention that slavery is a bad thing, or to the meta-level suggestion that including certain elements in stories is more likely to lead to problems and bad writing than to useful story ideas?
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There are certain things that do disgust me when they appear in stories, but overall, I don't mind if characters do things that I morally disapprove of. For instance, I believe, as the Christian tradition teaches, that homosexuality is inherently immoral. That said, I can still enjoy a story that has main characters that behave in a homosexual way. Similarly, we all agree that slavery is bad, yet slavery as a story element can be used correctly. Additionally, there have been many stories of slaves falling in love with their masters and becoming free through marriage.

The problem is that, as was stated earlier, the slavery thing is just used an excuse to have the hot chick be with the loser who just so happens to treat her correctly. I would much rather have a story where the guy earns the slave girl's affection through something other than "being nice" (as you can be a complete sociopath and "be nice"). Have him slay entire monsters to save her life, have him give her a priceless treasure, or, hell, win her over with a nice dinner and conversation about a hobby they share. IMHO, "being nice" doesn't really earn you much than a pat on the back. "Congrats, you weren't a complete shit to this obviously sympathetic character. Whoop-dee-do."

Do you get what I'm saying?

aattss said:
That doesn't happen in shallow WN, because it's like Mary Sues where people either completely fall in love with them or are morons condemmed for not liking the MC at best.

If anything, as with all harems, everyone wanting to have sex with the OP protagonist doesn't really break my suspension of disbelief. It's broken when said women want to have sex with the MC because they're all legitimately completely in love with and devoted to the MC with no motivation from material gain or any other form of self interest.
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Exactly. Hell, I can see a harem forming around a guy because he's superficially handsome and badass. Boom, instant harem. Of course, the challenge of the story could be is to actually make honest friends with the girls.

But we're just getting sidetracked by the harem/waifu aspect of Isekai, eh?

Here's an idea I just had. The Marvelous Land of Oz had of the characters, a orphan boy named Tip, turn out to be Ozma, the Fairy Princess. Ozma was transformed into a boy as a child and was raised as such in order to hide her from some greater evil. That could be the excellent starting point of an Isekai. The story could be an inverse of the Tales of Wedding Rings manga. Our brave young protagonist was raised as a normal young man living in Japan until their sixteenth birthday, where a wizard retrieved them and returned him to his true form (much to his chagrin) and must use some great magic to save the kingdom. What do you think?
 
I think we've dwelled on Isekai Slavery fiction enough, and the correct answer is that it's a terrible fad and none of the characters who are from a developed country act like they should, which is with morbid revulsion, bile fascination and outrage instead of "Oh sweet a harem". That's not taking into account ones where the character goes out of his (always a guy, hmm) way to enslave others because it's the first thing that pops into his head.
 
TreeFrogSoup said:
I think we've dwelled on Isekai Slavery fiction enough, and the correct answer is that it's a terrible fad and none of the characters who are from a developed country act like they should, which is with morbid revulsion, bile fascination and outrage instead of "Oh sweet a harem". That's not taking into account ones where the character goes out of his (always a guy, hmm) way to enslave others because it's the first thing that pops into his head.
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Most Isekai-like stories I've seen usually have the character try to free the female, with the exception of Tate no Yuusha, which had our protagonist purchase a slave to show that he was kind of a scumbag that only cared about his personal benefit.

And slavery is an institution that has been with mankind for generations. Only with the advent of Christianity was the idea that "slavery is evil" started to emerge, and even a lot of Christians messed up on that mark. That said, a protagonist that is disgusted by the barbaric fantasy world in which he has been transported to would make for an interesting story, so if you aren't squeamish about writing such topics, it would be interesting to see a story that deals with this.

Also, men tend to be asses when it comes to women. That's just an impulse that every man must control.
 
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Gaslamp Isekai idea
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    • I have this weird idea for an original "isekai" story that's potentially not really one at all.

    Essentially, the premise starts out pretty bog standard; otaku dies horribly and enters another world.

    Only this other world isn't a typical fantasy world; he's in an industrial revolution era iteration of a gaslamp fantasy/gothic horror universe that's essentially a hybrid of Bloodborne and Girl Genius (or, if you're in the know about these games, a Fallen London/Sunless Sea type universe essentially).

    Green and black smoke cloud the air, the streets are coated in grime and poverty and human filth of all sorts, marked with ebony towers filled with nobles and royalty so grand that they can almost touch the stars themselves, teeming with metal beasts fueled by eldritch magic and clockwork and coal that wander the streets, with the seas 'n skies being places that man can only dare to wander, because they're places of grand majesty and horrible beasts, ancient beyond time and man itself, whose mere presence sees fit to remind man that they are at the mercy of things that they have no hope of understanding without going mad and whose tongues can rend the bodies and souls of all that live with but a single incomprehensible syllable.

    Of course, as much as the many forms of the creatures of Man may look at these beasts as horrors beyond their greatest horrors, these creatures view Man the same way; they both terrify each other just by existing.

    Mankind, in this case, is divided into multiple species; black and white and green live together, although it's not at all in harmony.

    Our protagonist is also not initially associated or allied with members of the privileged upper class of nobles that rule the world.

    He instead starts out as a peculiar brand of teenaged street urchin; a mad science experiment done on this society's most vulnerable and disposable members, designed to make magic super soldiers who are basically a cross between Captain America and The Yharnam Hunter (if they could use their magical blood powers more frequently), only mass produced and treated like shit because using their potential phenomenal cosmic powers comes at the cost of their own health and sanity; at lower levels, or if they're trying to use their powers for extended periods of time, it's a slow acting poison, but at higher levels, and in short bursts... well, think One For All, but potentially more devastating mentally (it's actually slightly less so physically) because One For All's powerset wasn't derived from limited quantities of what's essentially the blood of Elder Gods.

    It's very, very easy to take care of, by the way; all he'd need to avoid the most severe consequences are some relatively easily available medicines but... well, the protagonist is a street urchin. Wealth disparity, you know? What's relatively easy to get for the middle class and rich is a luxury for the poor.

    Our protagonist is an underdog, and his attempts at being a badass could potentially drive him insane.... if he isn't already completely nuts (well, alright, it's pretty obvious he's kind of nuts because he views murder as a sacred, transcendent artform and thinks like Tiny Tina/Orks/SB when it comes to guns i.e "how boomy is this, and how much boomier can I make it") because of his backstory.

    See, it's entirely possible that having the blood of an elder god in his veins is fucking with his memories. Well, alright, it's more like having the blood of an elder god in his veins is definitely fucking with his memories, but he doesn't really get which memories are the ones that were fucked with.

    See, the protagonist has two sets of memories, both of which are pretty dark; one of "normal life" and the circumstances which led to him becoming a shut in as a teenager, and one of "the universe he entered" and his life as a hobo who was violently experimented on, essentially turning his life and memories into one big experiment in cartesian skepticism because he has no way of knowing whether or not his memories and life are "real" or "fake" and manipulated by higher powers for their own incomprehensible and inscrutable motivations.

    But (at the start) there's only one net positive in the protagonists life; his "friend" (read: crush) named Otto, who decides to partner up with the protagonist because while the protagonist has incredible fighting skills but no social graces, Otto has incredible social skills (alongside being handsome and having massive mars pattern adamantium genitals) and can't fight his way out of a paper bag with leukemia.

    Together they have one simple goal; get out of poverty, and try not to get fucked over along the way.

    Thoughts?

    LATE EDIT: Please respond?
     
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    • The Name of Love said:
    Certainly an interesting take on the genre, going more for steampunk than JRPG setting. Have you seen Princess Principal, perhaps?
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    No, mostly because it's a lot more like Bloodborne and Darkest Dungeon than Princess Principal, and a lot more like Sunless Sea than either of them. Although I haven't played that either and I should go check it out sometime so...

    Also, the protagonists of this work are the kind of people who'd look at societies in general and go "fuck it, let it all burn." They're either focused mostly on themselves or on horribly toppling the status quo damn the consequences.

    EDIT: Please respond?
     
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    Here's an idea: don't have the protagonist be an Otaku. Have him or her be a college educated office worker or something that has absolutely zero familiarity with fantasy culture, forcing them to learn and appropriately react rather than gaming the system.

    Basically similar to Rock from Black Lagoon.

    Alternatively, set the fantasy world in an environment thats not fantasy northwest Europe or China. Something like the Western Sahel, the Middle East, the Balkans, Indonesia, etc. Where the familiar tropes and story conventions wouldnt apply.
     
    Soverihn said:
    Here's an idea: don't have the protagonist be an Otaku. Have him or her be a college educated office worker or something that has absolutely zero familiarity with fantasy culture, forcing them to learn and appropriately react rather than gaming the system.

    Basically similar to Rock from Black Lagoon.

    Alternatively, set the fantasy world in an environment thats not fantasy northwest Europe or China. Something like the Western Sahel, the Middle East, the Balkans, Indonesia, etc. Where the familiar tropes and story conventions wouldnt apply.
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    Alternatively, a Mayincatec setting or some kind of punk setting.
     
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    bluepencil said:
    Also, by all practical definitions, this is isekai.


    OP protagonists are fire. But I kinda miss protagonists that are just a man, with a man's courage.

    Of course, a part of me wonders, then why the hell are you looking for it in shitty LNs? :V
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    I'd rather take shitty things and make them better than take something good and mess it up.

    Nilay said:
    Or a Gaslamp Fantasy/Gothic Horror/Steampunk/"Cosmic Horror" mess like what I'm trying to make.

    Hell, I'd fucking love to see an isekai story that does take place in an RPG setting, but one of the more totally batshit crazy ones, like Spelljammer or Planescape.

    EDIT: Please respond? Also, I'd like to see you guys iterate on my above idea and try to expand it.
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    Never heard of Spelljammer. I immediately want to make a story though.
     
    The Name of Love said:
    Never heard of Spelljammer. I immediately want to make a story though.
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    Yeah, it has that effect on people.

    I mean, come on, those badass literal spaceships tho. Just, wow. Who wouldn't want to make a story in a setting like that?

    But seriously, how would you iterate on my isekai idea?

    Actually, can we all post our ideas so that we can start furiously debating on how to make them work?

    I mean, look at Halkeginia Online; that was fantastic and it was the product of the kind of in depth research and discussion that you can only get in forums like SV and SB.

    Besides, that's kind of why we're here, isn't it?
     
    Nilay said:
    Yeah, it has that effect on people.

    I mean, come on, those badass literal spaceships tho. Just, wow. Who wouldn't want to make a story in a setting like that?

    But seriously, how would you iterate on my isekai idea?

    Actually, can we all post our ideas so that we can start furiously debating on how to make them work?

    I mean, look at Halkeginia Online; that was fantastic and it was the product of the kind of in depth research and discussion that you can only get in forums like SV and SB.

    Besides, that's kind of why we're here, isn't it?
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    If you want to, you can create a thread discussing this idea and link it here.
     
    well a isekai can also be a simple story

    Don't link to copyright infringing sites. -Staff

    a story were a reincarned girl wonna really read a book!

    Still don't link to copyright infringing sites. -Also Staff

    were the MC make a farm!
     
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    Try Seiun Wo Kakeru.

    What makes it good? It's a straight isekai, the MC is not overpowered, he's just a blacksmith in a village. With all the problems that implies, such as having all the fear of being killed just like any person, the thought of rebellion against nobles can lead to serious consequences, and you can't just yield to economic pressures with better goods because the supply of currency is finite. Basically, a realistic story that's actually more 'western' in its approach, a story I'm happy to say is more like a serious novel than a light novel.
     
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